Ep. 47: ARCHERY ELK!!! Listener Questions and Hunting Elk Without Calling

It's going to be just me as I have quite a few detailed questions from our listeners that I want to dive into and kind of try to give some good answers to. And then I'm going to talk about some strategies that I don't personally use all that often, but I'm able to recognize when they're gonna work great and when we should deploy them, such as sitting wallows such as ambushing elk spot in stock tree stand hunting, baiting if it's legal in your state, and some of

those more out of the box. I wouldn't say they're out of the box. They're out of the box for the way that we hunt, you know, when we're out there for a certain situation and a certain encounter with the elk. But these are very very good strategies in the right scenarios. So look look forward to talking about that a little bit, a little bit different from our typical aggressive bugle call type stuff. So excited to kind

of dig into that. We're gonna start this episode like every other episode, We're gonna jump into listener questions and if you have questions for us, myself or my guests, feel free to send us a message on any of our social media channels, or you can email us at CTD at Phelps game Calls dot com. And that's where all of these questions come from as through our email today. Our first question today is from Cole Marley. He's from Idaho, where he typically hunts out. They seem to completely shut

down at various times in the morning. I've heard stories of guys having better success calling bulls in the middle of the day or calling to bet at elk. He's just wondering if I could talk about how you go about or any tips that you have for calling elk specifically in the middle of the day. So I don't want to like tiptoe around the question, Cole, but there's

no rhyme or reason to win. And what makes elk more active in the morning versus the middle of the day or vice versa, And what I would if I had to try to put some thought to it, after talking to biologists and just seeing what happens, you know, from day to day, where it could be, you know, the ret could be crazy one day, dead the next day,

crazy the next day. One thing that I'm starting to think is likely is cows and that herd just being in Estris, right, if those bulls recognize a cow is at Estriss or not, and if that times with early morning, mid day, whatever it may be, because those pheromones, once she's been bred kind of shut off. So if it kicks in the middle of the day, the rut is going to kick in, you know, or seem to have kicked in, or the bulls are going to start biggling more in the middle of the day versus if that's

like a carryover from the night before. So I think those cows, you know, being in Estris during that specific time definitely plays into that, you know, where it seems like a morning's really good, you know, then it's not good, then it is good. It's just whether those cows are coming in or not during that time. The second thing that usually seems to matter a lot is the dynamics of the herd that's there. Is it is it one large herd bowl and no satellite bulls close to them?

Is there a semi mature satellite bowl? Kind of challenging that bowl, especially when there are cows in estrus, so, you know, and there's been times where multiple herds end up in one spot, which we kind of coin as a rutfest. You know, multiple herds end up in one spot trying to you know, get to that good food that area they like to be or hang out for the evening. That will really kind of kick off that morning rut where it seems like everything's going nuts very

early in the morning. But then to get more to your question on calling ELK in the middle of the day and specifically calling to bett at ELK for my normal style, I would say where we may be call quite a bit. You know, we're we're we're locating, we're getting in tight and we're being aggressive on on midday calling. A lot of times you're going to sneak in, or we're gonna sneak in on those elk and try to

get as absolutely close as we can. There are instances where if he's bugling a lot, we may be a little more aggressive. But if you're getting one or two lazy betted beagles every every so often and he's not really aggressive, we're gonna use that just to kind of pinpoint him and get very very close. You know, the better idea you have of his location, you know, the tighter you can get. A lot of times we seek go into a patch of timber. We don't know exactly

where they're going to bed. You can't exactly pinpoint his bugle, especially once you get over there, so you're just methodically picking your way to their spot. And then I'm gonna be a lot more hesitant. I'm gonna be a lot less aggressive. And what I usually like to do when we're in these midday is get as close as we can and then be quiet. That bowl will eventually bugle somewhere.

You know, he's either gonna get up, you know, after they've be embedded for an hour or two and go grab water, or he's gonna check on his cows again. A lot of times you're gonna see that bowl. If you're close enough, you can watch him get up out of his bed and nudge your bump cows, get him to stand up, check on him, and then he's gonna go to the next one. He may do that and

then he may stay right there. But a lot of times or at times, he will then go venture off, knowing that none of his cows need attention, and go to a water source if it's close by. That is a great time if you can time that, because the bowls on his feet, he's going to be more apt to, you know, come in your direction, uh to to a bowl that that's buggling close to his cows. The other time I really like to do that is on the back end, when they're going to get up for their night.

You know they're going to go back out to feed. If you can wait that long. We've sat on betted elk two three four, five hours at a time waiting for the right time. You don't want to insert yourself and just become a crazy aggressive bowl when the rest of the elk are betted down. It may work, but I would think just from our our trial and air that going in calling to those more you know they're they're hot, they're they're typically you know they're they're trying

to be in the shade. They're a little more reserved at that time, I would say less aggression, and then your timing is more important. The other thing that some people do without calling. Now, I know you've asked about calling to bettedt out, but one thing we've did before is if you can get close enough to the cows. We've got within sixty seventy yards of the betted cows and is heard, you can just be patient and not call it all as long as you've got the wind right.

A lot of times that bull will come check on that cow. He knows that she's betted over there, he'll come check on her. And that may be an opportunity when he gets very close to your location. One you may just have a shot, depending on how close you can get, and two you may need to only call him ten to fifteen yards off of that. But typically, now, what calls do we use, I would say we probably

challenged biegal, you know, eighty percent of the time. So we go from very reserved calling to no calling at all to basically like a very in your face call. I don't feel a cow call is gonna work very well. And that's that scenario because he already knows where his cows are at. He may come check on you. But I feel like that bowl at the time they bed down, knows where every single one of those cows betted down and whether you're one and has heard or not. So

I tend to stick with bugles in that scenario. Not saying the cow calls won't work, that's just kind of the system that we run. But yeah, that there's a time where those l get back to bed versus the time they get up to go feed. That that there can be kind of that midday madness where that bowl, maybe the satellites try to bed too close to his herd, or that bull just kind of gets fired up checking cows.

That's typically when that happens. That bowl get up is kind of that time where they're they're pretty vulnerable, and I would say that that the percentage or the chance of killing that bull is just as good as any other time of the day. So long winded answer, but Cole, that's kind of how I would approach you know, bulls, you know, potentially not biggling that much in the morning and maybe biggling more in the middle of the day.

Just handle it like anything else, make your move. I'm just I just tend to be a little more quiet right up until that point of trying to call that bowl in. And yeah, so we're gonna jump into our next question from Andy Summers. He's elk kinded in Colorado just about every Labor Day weekend going for twenty five years. He's pretty confident with a call in his mouth, although in this situation that we're going to explain, he opted not to use it. He's curious how we would have

handled it. So he was slipping in up an east facing slope toward a wallow in thick timber with about two hours of evening left. This is an area that received some hunting pressure, and he's almost one hundred percent encountering elk in this area in the morning. Over the past several years, they frequently moved quietly through the area to bed near a wallow. Fairly early. The thermals were

already moving down slape this evening. As he was hunting up towards the wallow, heard a twig snap and a very heavy mature bowl materialized to his left and up the mountain. He was about thirty five yards steeply quartered away when he first saw him and was slowly feeding

his way toward the wallow. He tried his best to work closer for a shot, but the train just wouldn't allow it, as there were blowdowns everywhere, so he opted to day put let the bull get ahead of him and as the wall it was about one hundred or so yards up the mountain and what he had, what he considered the best feed for the night was below him, thinking the bull would come back and ambush him in that spot once again. Timeline September seventh or eighth, fast forward.

The ball didn't retrace his steps, didn't utter a sound, and slipped away in the opposite direction, and then he slipped out. He didn't hunt the area the next day. He just wanted to know what would we have did different? And Andy, this is where you know, we we claim to be experts or experienced, there are times and this might not be a great answer what you're looking for.

I'm gonna preface this with there are times where you have to make a decision and there's risks right if you don't pursue and let him get to that wallow. There's three hundred and sixty degree direction that he can go, and if he doesn't go in about a ten degree sliver of that, you're never going to get a shot. Right,

So you're trying to weigh that risk. But you also added in that you thought the best night feed where they were going to want to go, or maybe where the elk typically go, was below you, So you added that in and thought that there was a good chance he was going to come back by you. This is

one thing where hindsight is always twenty twenty. Right now you're thinking, like, dang it, me sitting here was not the right answer, But what other decision could you have come up with that maybe had a better higher rate? And even then the higher rate, all you're doing is running scenarios to your head trying to figure out what

is the higher rate. It doesn't necessarily mean that's what the elk's going to do, so don't Yeah, I think we can always overthink these things, and there are decisions we make on the mountain or in the elk woods day after day that just do not pencil out for us. And it's what makes it fun. What makes us like a a big chess chess game, You know, like one or two moves isn't gonna win the thing for you. It takes it's an overall strategy and doing things over

and over that put yourself in the position to do that. Now, with that said, I tend to think and my brain goes to which gets me in trouble A lot is if I follow this ball, at least I can guarantee that we have an encounter versus the let's hang back and and see if he comes back. Now, I also put a lower percentage on that working out, like if if I, if I can pursue this elk, you know, there's a chance that he's going to be at that wallow or he's going to stay at that wallow for

a minute or two. You know, without knowing exactly how thick the blowdown is. Now, if it's thick, impenetrable blowdown that you can't get through without being quiet, or if you need to be quiet, your your play probably had the you know, the highest success because if the last thing you want to do is put a bowl on alert is you're approaching, you could have cal called like a lone bull within thirty to thirty five yards, like, depending on how the blowdown was laid in, you only

need him to come. You don't even really need him to move that much. You just need him to present a shot. And this is one of those times where calling when a bowl obviously wants to do something different may not yield any results. But there are times where we have did something like this where a bull wants to go different direction, we just happened to be in a certain location and we can get that bowl to

turn and come check you out. So in this instance, I probably would have let out a small cow call, knowing he was only at thirty to thirty five yards, and I just really needed things to kind of change, you know, so you didn't have that steep, quartered away shot. Maybe he would turn broadside, or maybe he would just walk two to three yards in a different path versus the you know, angled away direction that he was going.

You know that all that is tough, and maybe the biggest takeaway from your Senate is it's always easy to look at the situation afterwards and think you should have did something different, but in all reality, it's just archery l cunting, And this is kind of that game that we get to play. You know, you make decisions. They either work or they don't. You think about it the next time you're in a similar position. Did that work

or not? Do you want to just bank that you made the best decision the first time and do it again, you know, and then it doesn't work, well, then the next time you're obviously going to be you know, more aggressive, or you're going to try something different, or you know, if a bull's doing something similar multiple nights in a row, you're like, well, if I get the wind right, I'm just gonna go hang out at that wallow. You know,

there's just ways that we adjust throughout a hunt. And to be honest, I don't know if I did anything different Andy in your situation than than what you did. You know, good feed. You're playing to the bulls habit. They they're most likely you want to go to that feed. He's gonna go grab a drink at the wallow before it comes out the feed for the rest of the night.

There's there's nothing isn't necessarily wrong with that play. And like you say, I maybe would have let out a small cow call to see if I could have turned him, But that's that's really the only thing I would have did different. The next list of questions comes from Troy Hayes. He sent me in four or five of them here,

So I'm going to try to start tackling these. Let's say you're road bugling early in the morning and you throw out a location bugle and you hear a distant bugle maybe you know anywhere from three hundred and six hundred yards away. Do you keep trying to locate more elk or do you moving closer on that specific elk? And what's your thought process on moving in? Can you

break that down for me? So I'm one of those guys that usually it's the whole bird in the hand analogy, right, Like a bird in the hand is better than you know. I'm gonna mess out all up, but you get the idea like that is a for sure thing. But I also may give it some time to see if there are other balls around, because that additional that additional information may help. Or a lot of times when we chase a bowl, we may mess it up or he may become unresponsive, and then our plan is to move in

the direction of those other elk. So I always want to know exactly how many elk are around, it is always going to be to my benefit. But then with that said, a lot of times we look at two things and one or is one of the bulls better sounding? Like do we feel like that's the herd bowl? This is a satellite bowl? Do we want to chase one versus the other the other? Is how aggressive? And how

much do they continue to bugle? Like is it just a returned location bugle or is that bowl now bugling on his own getting kind of cranked up just from the location, or you know, did he just answer location bugle but he's been fired up all morning. We kind of think of that, and then also which which one allows a better approach? So if a bowl, you know, if the wind's in a great location, it seems like we've got the terrain right, he's not really moving that fast,

so he's gonna be in the same location. All that stuff kind of weighs into which bowl we're gonna to to go after first and then make our changes. But what I would say is that you know you had mentioned road bugling or locating off of a trail or a fire road. I won't leave that location to go find the next elk down down the road, you know,

in a different location. I will usually hunt what we have there, knowing that say, on subsequent mornings or the next morning, I can go then I can go see if there's other elk down the drainage or down the road or later that morning. So we usually go after what's presented in front of us. But I do like to maybe let one or two more location beagles from there before I, you know, let's say the roads up high dive off, or if the elker above us, you know,

jump up off the road. I want to know exactly what's there, what other elker responding before I make my move, and then uh my thought process of moving in It's it's very simple. I don't want to to you know, people can overcomplicate it. It's really what's the wind doing at this moment right now? What's the wind doing at

the location of that bowl right now? You know, if if you're let's say the road's up high and he's down in a drainage, is he really close to the bottom like, because then I've got to start thinking about the wind going down the drainage. Is he halfway up

the hill? Well, now I've got to think about early morning thermals, it's I need to stay off to the side of him a couple hundred yards before I move any closer, because that there's a potential that that wind going down the hill could get pulled in or sucked into his location. Where's he going to want to go? If I can pick a direction that that bowl wants to head bye by the changes of his bugles, by where he's feeding versus where I think he wants to bed, And then how long is it going to take me

to get there? And what's the wind going to be doing once I do get to that location? All needs to be thought about, and there's a little bit of a dynamic because all that's changing and moving based on time. So that's really what goes through my head as I'm approaching and trying to get tight to that out. So

here's the question number two. Let's say you're road biggling early in the morning and don't hear a thing, what's your next move work through the north facing slope, thread away or am I going to wait until nine or ten and hope things are bedded? Are you doing any cold calling scenarios? So if I don't hear any bugling, early in the morning. That's usually when I lace my boots up a little bit tighter, or I if you you know, you mentioned road biggling, I'm assuming maybe from

a vehicle or a gated road. Regardless, I'm just going to cover more ground. I'm going to go try to find a bull that's buggling in that area. I'm also one of the things we always talk about as I'm using my glass, like they're unless you're just you know, northern you know, if you're here in western Washington, northern Idaho where where you may not be able to see, you're just gonna have to cover a lot of ground.

Or if you've got a good idea where elk are at, like I I, unless you know you've blown elk out of the country, I just assume that those elk are still there. They're just being quiet that day, so you can you can move into those locations. But typically I don't like to still hunt for elk. That means I don't like to go into a timber patch when they're not talking, or into you know, into old growth or into a brush patch, or into any area where those

elk aren't letting me know. Because you're really you're really reducing the odds. No matter how good and quiet you are, it's sometimes tough without them at least talking on their own. So I usually just cover lots of ridgeline, or I would cover more of the road system and try to just locate elk that are ready to play the game, you know, because even waiting till nine or ten, they will potentially bugle from their beds. But they're always going

to bugle better. Typically you can't say they're always going to be a go better, but typically they bugle better in the morning, and then bugles get less and less and less as you get towards the middle of the day, towards the heat of the day. So I always want to cover as much ground as early as I can. Cold calling scenarios, I will use cold calling scenarios, but I don't think cold's the right word. So I won't go just to an area that may or may not

have elk and just call. Now. If I'm starting to see sign on the ground, let's say tracks, Let's say I'm smelling elk. Let's say I'm seeing fresh rubs an area that maybe had elk the night before, I will call in those areas but I would call that like warm calling. Right, there's a little bit we've got some good data to say that that's a good spot to

invest some time if the elk aren't biggling. My personality, my patience doesn't play very well to to warm calling scenarios because I always feel that once I'm in September, the bulls should be bugling or at least answering me somewhere. And so that's kind of what goes through my head. Why am I wasting, not say wasting, Why am I potentially gonna waste thirty to forty five minutes here where I don't feel like my odds are very high of

getting something to come to this location. With that said, people use cold calling, warm culling scenarios and setups every year to find all kinds of success. I'm just weighing these percent successes in my head. I feel that I'm better served covering ground, getting a bowl to respond, and then setting up our game than I am sitting in one location. So question number three from Troy Ball bugles at two hundred yards away. He has no idea if he has cows or not. What are the next moves?

Two hundred yards is pretty pretty close. I may not risk moving at all, depending on the terrain vegetation. Now, if if everything's laid out nicely and there's no real risk of me moving one hundred yards without being busted in his direction, and I can do it maybe quietly, or I can get you know, without being seen, I will do it. I always want to be as close as possible. But there are times and I'm you didn't say that you located this bowl, so I'm going to

assume this bowl just bugle on his own. A bullet bugles on his own, may be searching for cows. So I may get, you know, close that distance, whatever it is, fifty seventy one hundred yards, whatever I can get as quietly as I can get. I'm gonna listen again. A lot of times we before we make a peep, Like, I want to know, is that bowlging a beagle on his own? Can I hear other elk moving around down there?

Because by time you get to one hundred yards, like, it's pretty easy to typically hear, you know, stick snapping, bull's bigeling again, just try to get an idea of what's going on. I will, in this situation not necessarily bugle right off the bat. This ball has no idea. I'm there. I may just let out a cow call.

It's kind of that lower threat level. See if he answers that if this is a satellite bowl searching for cows or just a group of satellite bulls that are biggling, you're going to get a fairly quick response, and that may be all that's needed, where a beagle would have actually maybe screwed that up. If you get the idea that it is a herd bull and that's all the further you can move. I may still be patient in this scenario to see if they're heading in my direction already.

That would be the best case scenario if you if you don't necessarily have to call it now. If I feel like they're rumning, you rumminggen around there, they're not really moving. Maybe that bowl's a little more excited than we thought. I may elect to start biggling at this bowl or walking on as bugles. But it's it's really it's really tough to know in that scenario because he didn't answer a beagle. He didn't answer a cow call to start with, and there's always some hesitancy when you

go in there. You don't necessarily want to screw up what you just got, right, You just got a bugle for free. Now, if I go in there and cow call, is that going to shut him up? Not? Typically Usually the way you know the elk work, he's gonna he's gonna be agle. He's gonna invite you as a new cow into his herd or to come hang out. He'll bugle, you know, a bugle within one hundred yards typically won't give him the ability to take his cows and run,

but you never know. So this one is usually one of those times where I'll start with like the lowest threat level, you know, calf cow sounds maybe into a money or more whiny bugle, and then you know, depending on how things escalator don't, maybe we'll get into challenge beagles. But that's kind of what I would do in that scenario.

So question four. It's the middle of September. You get the camp, mid afternoon, get everything unpacked, head out to glass a couple of meadows, and you locate let's say, a smaller herd two to five cows, one to two bulls. What's your next move that evening? But then also the next morning, so it depends on how quick I can get there. It depends on how quickly those elker moving.

If you feel like they're gonna hang out in that meadow, or if you think they're gonna move, do you feel like they're gonna move out of that meadow for the morning. Like a lot of this stuff you just have to make guesses on, And that's based on how fast the alker moving, Are they content are they just sitting feeding

and not really making up any ground? You know, All that stuff will will play in and I will make my decision on whether I feel like my chance of killing that bull is a high enough level that's worth me going over there, or do I feel like the wind play is better in the morning, or is the wind play gonna be perfect tonight. All that plays into whether I'm gonna just watch them maybe just try to figure them out so I can keep an eye on those elk, But then maybe you're gonna glass a whole

bunch of other country. Like if I if I invest in that night, like yeah, I could go after but I think my odds are better in the morning, Well, then that's utilize the rest of the evening to try to locate herds. Two three, four, and five, and then you make your decision on out of those five or six options, which one do I think get you know, is gonna yield the best percentage or the best chance for me to be successful in the morning, and then go after those ones. So it just it just really depends.

I will say, typically default too if I feel like there's a good enough chance, I don't like let that opportunity get away, because those elk may not be anywhere around in the morning. Typically they will be, but there are times where you know, you expect them to be there in the morning and they're not anywhere to be found, and you know, they may not be there at all anymore, they may have moved a half a mile away or

into a different drainage. So I usually try to like, you know, seize the moment or capitalize on the on the on the opportunity in front of me. But there are times where we will you know, kick the can down the road, uh, you know, go after him in the morning, but then also use night to find more additional elk or you know, a lot of times if you take off, you can't watch them anymore. You may miss a lot of information. If you were to sit

and watch them for that next two hours. You may see bulls coming up and over the ridge line into that meadow, or bulls leaving or cows joining, which we'll definitely add to you know, some of the things you need to think about as you head over there. Last question for Troy. The bulls beg lean back and forth with you. Every time you try to close a distance on him and beagle again, he does a round up beagle and pushes out and moves further away. What are

the tactics to kill this bull? So we do this a lot. We call it the kind of that cat and mouse we're chasing an elk. It seems like we make ground, he moves ground. There's two things you can do here, and I would say later in the hunt, I would do number one. You can just be very aggressive. You're gonna have to push that boundary very very close, maybe tighter than you have And a lot of times I like to save that aggressive play when there's a train feature or a vegeta feature in front of you

that allows you to be a little more aggressive. So let's say you're on some finger ridges, you're in some timber and you can see the elk kind of crest over the top. It's at that point where I may just be very quick and try to gain as much ground as I can, hoping that that bowl has only moved, you know, thirty or forty yards, So we're very very tight. But he didn't see me. He didn't hear me as

I close that distance. The other thing you can do is if you know the direction they're ultimately trying to head, is pull out and make a big circle out in front of them. And now this circle, you also need to think. You've got to be very conservative as far as not being winded, not being heard to try to get out and ahead, and you have to think of how fast this herds moving, because you need to make a big circle and make sure that you're way out ahead. A lot of times the reason this won't work is

elk aren't dumb animals. If they're moving in a direction, I've got to assume that the wind is going to be pretty constant in the opposite direction. And so when you go to make your circle out in front, how are you going to accomplish that without being winded? Because elk will not move unless they're spooked or scared. Typically in the downwind direction they're going, or I'm gonna get my directions off, but they're not. They're walking into the wind right and if you get in front of them,

they're now able to wind you. So keep that in mind. So a lot of times if I can make an aggressive play, I will without a high risk of spooking them. And then there are times where we may just need to back out if it's early in a hunt. If you know, those elk are content being there, and we may just come back at them a different day. So thanks a lot for all those questions. The last question

is into us from Jake Harold. He says he's got a serious problem that maybe just as equally suited for a psychologist as it is for us here on cutting the distance. So he has a major case in history

of bull fever. He's got the good fortune every year being able to call an ELC to shooting distance, even on solo hunting, but when that bull's coming in, a switch flips in his brain and he just gets He says, his mind actually gets clear, but he's got some sort of an adrenaline dump that is overwhelming and shuts down his system. So he talks about being able to call a bull in He uh, it was perfect, you know, picture perfect at thirty yards, but he couldn't get his

bow drawn. His you know, his arms felt like they're full lead, too heavy to lift. He said. It's like he's got a serious issue. That's like psychologically messes him up over the encounter. But he doesn't have an issue with ky Elk, no issues on rifle hunts with him not being able to keep his composure. It just happens with big bulls on archery hunts. You know, aside from jabbing himself with pins or like clinically diagnosed solutions, what can he do to to simulate or learn to manage

his adrenaline dump. This one's tough, but I can relate. I didn't have it to I've never been able to not draw my bow, but early in my archery l cunting career, and I still do. I get I get jacked up, I get excited. I love when when bulls are moving into my location. There were times I had a little bit of a different issue early on. I couldn't I would forget everything that I knew from that summer or from shooting at the range on how to

aim my bow everything fell apart. Like I can get my bow drawn, I can get what I thought was everything settled down, but I would forget to level my bubble. I would forget to you know, like talk myself through which pin I'm going to use, settle the pin, pick a spot. So I didn't have the same issue. I

went through a scenario. And one thing that worked for me, Jake, was to really methodically practice a system, whether you've got to talk to yourself, whether you've got to you know, make a sticker and stick it on your riser, and

it could be as simple as breathe. You know. Uh, there might be times where and I'm not I'm not going to try to clinically diagnose why you couldn't get your bow drawn, But a lot of times, guys, will you stop breathing for forty five you know, it's almost like you hold your breath and that can affect you

being able to get your bow drawn. So, you know, writing something on your riser as simple as like breathe, draw you know, anchor Like I know you say you're saying you can't get to that, but just like the reminder of breathe and then when you're out practicing before your shots. You know, when you're practicing, you know in your driveway or your range and getting ready to uh to for season, Like make sure you add that in, Like you give yourself like ten seconds of calculated, methodical breathing,

deep breast hold it in. You know all I'm not claiming to be you know, a guy that's going to teach you how to you know, do all that. But whatever your breathing system is, like practice it and you know some of those things just having a simple checklist, breathe, draw, draw early, whatever it is, like, come up with a system that will allow you to get through some of these difficult or sticky points. You know, it's tough because I'm sitting here trying to tell you what maybe maybe

you should do. But I don't know if breathing is going to help you one bit. But it's to come up with the way, you know, whitetail hunters. It's a little bit of a different mechanism. But guys that sit out and freeze in a tree stand have have trouble drawing their bows. So I feel like a lot of guy set ups are more than capable for ELK. Like maybe maybe you're telling me. You couldn't have drawn a thirty pound bow back. It wouldn't have mattered, but maybe

less than your poundage to get through that. You know. I had a good hunt with one of my good buddies at one time, and he went through a weird thing where he couldn't get his bow drawn back. The bull spooch terns ten yards and twirls and he's able to get his bow all the way back. So I think our body, our nervous system, does a bunch of

weird stuff we can't control. But uh man, Yeah, aside from a psychologist or some sort of like EpiPen injection, I don't know what to do besides create like a very methodical, laid out step by step plan that you need to go through on every time you encounter a bowl coming to your location. That's about all I've got to offer on that one. Is. You know, aside for me, the more I get myself put in those situations, the more like calm, cool and collective I am, which sounds

like you're able to call bowls in every year. So it's not necessarily the issue. It's it's just you know, the the body breaks down and you know, one of the things. It's not your situation good, but I love it. It's what it keeps me coming back, like that adrenaline dump. But you do need to find a way to manage it.

So best of luck on that. Like I say, I think coming up with the system and then using that system even when you're practicing, when it doesn't matter, talking yourself through it, write it on your bow and hopefully that works out for you, Jake. So that's the end of our listener questions are quite a few of them there. Once again, if you have a question for me or any of my guests, please send us a message on social media or email us at CTD at Phelpsgamecalls dot com.

So today we you know, I wanted to get into what for me seems like and I don't want to call them out of the box because these should definitely be in your toolbox type ideas, but stuff that we don't talk or educate on or preach as much. So I really wanted to dive into those and maybe let let you know when I would use those and when when I think they've they've got like the best utility. You know, I'm searching, and I've said it over and over.

I'm out there searching for a specific interaction with the elk. I want them to bugle, I want them to respond, and I want to keep that up until we until we call them in. And if you've watched some of our videos, it may seem at time like we're buggling every twenty five seconds. Now, now I do have to throw a little caveat in there. Remember, we are editing these things down to the point where it's not really

exciting just to see us standing there. So you we don't bugle that much as we do in the videos. But we're also smart enough to realize that there are a lot of guys out there that are successful year in and year out that don't call the way we do. They don't hunt as aggressive as we do. So I want to talk about some of those things and way and ways that you can find success that maybe aren't cranking on a bugle, Maybe aren't you know, using the die fram maybe don't use calls at all. So we're

going to dive into those. We answered a question just a little bit ago on you know, hunting hunting bed at elk, so heading into their bedding zone quietly, being very patient, almost like a spot in stock hunter the same way you know you do spot in stock You're hearing beagles, you know where they're at. That can be very,

very productive for me. I sometimes have trouble not calling, but there are times, especially in Roosevelt Country, or if I've got really good ideas and I've got a good pattern on these elk, where I've went into alder patches on an elk trail with the wind right, been extremely quiet, and been able to get within bow range of an elk. I can remember early early in my bow hunting, you know, back back in the early days of bow hunting, where I was able to kill a bowl by letting him.

You know, we followed them all morning, We listened to him. We knew the setup wasn't good, the wind was never right. Let them get into their bedding. We waited an hour, hour and a half, let them get comfortable, and we then just knew we had some trail systems that we could get on without making any noise. Now we always talk about, oh, I love archery hunting because I can snap sticks and I can break limbs, and the elk know the elks should be making sounds. If I'm going

into a bedding zone. And my goal is to shoot an elk that's in there without him knowing that I'm in there. I'm going to be like stealth mode quiet. I want to go in there, not step on a stick. And as you approach. As much as I sometimes don't like getting my binoculars out, anytime a new little sliver of horizon opens up or a new visible section, you need to have your binoculars out. And when you're going

up over let's say a rise. You know, we all know how fast like country opens up for every little inch or to you, your eyes pop up. You're literally taking a four inch six inch step and glassing you're moving. You do not want to get picked off by a cow, a bowl, anything that's there. You're you're moving very very slow, and you're really picking them apart. Now there is some risk associated with us that I don't want to like, not talk about. When you're heading into their betting zone.

Roosevelts especially are so patternable, similar with rockies, Like if they've got a betting zone, they like that that provides you know, the shade, the security, the wind security, you know, swirling winds, whatever it may be. They're going to continue to use that, and if you're early in a hunt or it may bugger these things up and make these elk a little bit unhuntable for a day or two.

Not always, but if you get picked off or if you bump them out of an area where they're comfortable, just remember you may have just hurt your odds if you wanted to continue to hunt these elk. So if you're going to head into their betting area quietly, the other thing that typically happens when you have to head into their betting area is you don't get the wind perfect. You're you're not going to be able to get the

wind right. You're typically gonna want to head in with a wind that's maybe only ninety degrees right, So rather than you know, one hundred and eighty degrees on your nose, you're going to go in with the wind maybe hitting at ninety and so your approach needs to be a little more methodical, and you almost have to make a decision where you think those ulkra at. But I've always been super comfortable as long as the wind is moving, you know, side to side on me left, right, right

to left, I'm comfortable going in there. But typically you're not going to be able to approach a betting zone with the wind perfect, it just doesn't work. Or if you do, the majority of the time they've got additional satellite bowls or they've got, you know, things that are going to pick you off before you get to the main herd. I can remember a time in Idaho we had a great plan. We knew exactly where they betted. We can kind of see through the burnt timber into

a shady patch. All the elk betted there. But what we didn't see the two satellite bowls that were directly down wind of the herd. So I've now changed my approach. I'd assume go into the bedding area with the wind a little more favorable to the elk. It seems like we run into less uh lookouts and things that are gonna blow the whole situation for us. And and their eyes are typically you know, watching their their their their

down wind side wallow hunting. I don't have the patience for it, but we should always recognize when wallows can be effective. And I was on a hunt in Montana a couple of years ago where we couldn't figure out exactly why elk were in certain areas at times and it was almost like clockwork. But we later late in the hunt, almost a little bit too late, discovered that there were some wallows in the area that were getting hammered.

And when we would be you know, chasing elk up and down a creek ball and then they would hit a spot and then they would reverse, We're like, what the hell and why did that happen? Come to find

out it was wallows. So I'm not a huge fan of wallows in the morning now, not saying they can't happen, but I like, if I'm gonna sit on a wallow, which I have done in the past, not with a lot of success, but we've had trail cameras on wallows, so we've got a lot of good data, I would just assume sit on a wallow, you know, if those elk and that are getting back to bed at ten from about betting on and this kind of keeps me excited.

So for me, I'd like to chase bugles glass for bowls early in the morning, and then if I'm gonna switch to a wallow set up, I'm gonna do it that that bedding time. And the reason for that is as the temperatures heat up, is that bowl goes and beds down. Has heard a lot of times he will bed them down and then he will come get a drink of water, you know, afterwards, or come wallow in there to cool down or both. The same thing with

satellite bowls. A lot of times in the morning they're moving with the herd or off of the herd from feed the bed. You know, there's they're they're just shadowing that. But they may swing in, you know, and grab water earlier or later midday. And then a lot of times where a wallow will pan out is when those when the bowl or the herd gets up from there from their betting area and they're gonna head towards their feet area, they will swing by and and swing by the wallow

prior to their nighttime feeding routine. It's it's very patternable. The one thing which we talk about all the time is the direction. One thing I like to think about and I will not sit wallows if it doesn't pencil out this way is where are those are going to approach from? And can I keep the wind right at the time when they're gonna get here. So one of the downsides to wallows is uh, what's the wind direction going to be doing at the time that those elk

get here? And a lot of times, yeah, I don't know what you call the time. It's like that shadow that that shadow time right where the the shadows start to get long. It's like, all right, you just know that elk should be getting up on their feet. It's cool down now. The sun's at a point on the horizon where everything's cooling off. When it gets to that, the wind is typically swirllly, right, we don't We all know thermals are changing. All of that changes a lot

of times. It makes it very tough to sit a wallow and keep the wind right. So if I'm going to pick that out, you know, is it down below their bedding? Is it up above? What time are they going to get here? My banking on them getting here late after the thermals have changed before. So you just got to be fairly careful on sitting a wallow not to not to bump them out. And you know, maybe it resorts more back to whitetail hunting. But as I approach the wallow, like where did I just leave my

cent trail? Was I able to approach that wallow from a direction that no elk is going to have to cross that, or a high probability that elk aren't going to cross that. So you're because I've I've I've entered an area called elk in and had them cross my track, and I'm about zero percent successful on bulls or cows or any elk being willing to cross my track. So we need to be very smart on how we approach those wallows, how we get to them, and then where

we set up on them. One thing that will fix the wind a little bit, and it depends a little bit on the wallow, whether it's in a depression or whether it's high on a ridge, or if it's a hanging wallow. You know, is you can use a tree stand.

Now I've never tree stand hunted elk, but I understand well enough that there are certain you know, locations, Let's say there's a finger ridge that runs by a wallow, or the ability for us to get our scent up and above which gives us a whole lot more probability that those elk aren't gonna win us when they get to the wallow. So tree stands you can use. Over a wallow, you can also use tree stands on main travel corridors. This is for for patternable elk. They number one.

Just like when you're hunting white tails or anything, out of a tree stand, it gets their eyes off of you, so it gives you that freedom to be able to not be seen and it get once again. It gets the wind out of your way. So I like tree stands. If you're in a very patternable area that you know the elk are going to the visit by all means, a tree stand is a great idea if you've got

the patients. Now. The one problem with me and a tree stand is if I heard a bowl bugle and I didn't feel they were coming my way, I would get back down onto my tree stand and go chase bugles. So it wouldn't work for me. But if you're patient, you know, I know guys that sit on wallows for ten, fifteen, twenty days and finally make it happen. It takes a lot of patient I would say tree stand hunting requires a little bit more of a long game play, but

can be very very effective. Next up is ambush. Once again comes back to patternable. I would say, you know, tree stands kind of like the long game ambush, where ambush is something that you're going to do very quickly that morning. You know we've we've spotted elk, or we see elk and we know that they're going to use like that certain pass that's on the ridge line, or they're gonna they're gonna go down through this bottom, or

they're going to this timber patch. If you've got good data on these elk, or good direction or good bead, I always kind of consider the way we hunt an ambush style. I am trying to cover as much no pun intended. I'm cutting the distance. I'm covering as much ground with my feet as I want that elk. I want to do ninety nine percent of the work, and I want those elk to have to move a very very short distance. But let's say you don't want to call it all. Let's say there's reason you've tried to

call these elk it's not working. In that case, I'm gonna put all my calls in my pocket and I'm gonna go over to where I think these elk are going to go. Buy Some of the cons with ambushing is time right? Uh? Are they going to get there in time? Are they going to take their time. Another concern is are they going to change their pattern just slightly you know when uh, you know, we could do

all the very complex math. But if elk take just a slightly different direction from where they're at to where you want them to go by, they're now out of archery range, right, so you need to maybe you set up in a conservative ambush spot, maybe back in the timber a little bit more. That way, if they're not going to go on your trail, you've got the ability

to move unseen versus some people. I know, they get out on the edge, maybe out in the open, and then when the elk decide not to take their path, they're kind of pinned down. So there's that. I think it's a human trait where we just want to be able to see what's going on versus a little more conservative Maybe you can listen to beagles and that can tell you which direction they're going, you know you can, you can make an adjustment on that and once again ambush.

Same thing we talk about over and over, what's the wind going to be doing? And there are times where you get into scenario once you decide that you're not going to call, I would go over there and not call. There's always things that run through my head like, oh, I think I should call now because of this, and

it never seems to work. At the point where I decide it hasn't worked the last couple of times, I'm gonna go over there and truly ambush and set up, not call, and hope that they walk by my location the last and one of the reasons I don't like ambush style without calling, not saying you need to call. But one of the other things you're gonna have to consider is how far off of this trail do you want to set up. There are times where elk will move in more of a single file line, but there

are times where they're running pretty wide right. But guess which elk during the rut is typically always last. It's the bowl, or he's very close to the end. Not saying it always works that way, but a lot of times if you're not calling, that bull is kind of keeping his herd, heard it up, or he's broke a cow off. But they're typically one of the last elk to come along. So one of the things that you have to think about and is always a little nerve wracking,

is how are you in a location. Are you in an ambush spot that lets all of these elk go by you? Is the wind good enough that they're not going to catch your wind? You know, thirty yards past you, because it may take them to get eighty yards past you before that bull goes by. So think about all of this as you're setting up for an ambush. Bull's going to be you know, always assume the ball is going to be last because you need to make it through.

That is a win good enough for that to happen, And then you know, if all those boxes get checked and it's it's a decent ambush. Spot spot in stock very similar to an ambush versus you're doing as much moving as they're doing. You're trying to find a spot or you're trying to find a spot where you've finally got enough of an advantage without being seen without being heard, and typically that advantage is going to come through terrain

or through the vegetation. It allows you to move without being seen, maybe it allows you to move without being heard. So spot in stock there are guys that do it very effective, and the guys that are good at it are just just as successful as the best callers. The guys that run the best callings you know, or any

of these other things. It's a very effective way and sometimes a very rewarding and fun challenge to just shadow the herd, shadow the herd until you get yourself into a location where you can move in for a shot, or a lot of times when you're spot in stocking, you're getting just close enough that you want that bowl to break off and make a loop on another bowl, or break a cow off and make a loop back from the herd in your direction just enough where you

can get a shot. And so that's typically when you know you're spotting and stocking. You're either shadowing the herd, staying close enough that they make a mistake, or there are times where you know if the train allows or if you're able to keep the wind right and make calculated decisions on where you need to get ahead of them so that they, you know, veer by you or kind of rub off, you know, rub by your location

another great way to bot in stock. And a lot of times there are times where you just get herds that seem to be disinterested in you calling. They don't care that you're over there calling. You can just tell they're not answering you, they're answering the other elk, they're answering the other bulls that are there. They just don't. And a lot of times if there's a bowl in there that you want to kill or you want to go after, that is when the spot in stock kind

of ends up being the right key. They don't give a darn about you calling at all. They could care less that that you're even in existence. You got to switch that spot in stock and make that happen. And then the last thing I wanted to talk about, which we can do in Washington and check all of your local rules and laws, and for anybody where this is illegal in your state, don't listen to this part. But

baiting can be very very effective. You know here in Washington, it seems like everybody's always searching for apples that somebody has fallen behind your you know, under your apple tree, and can we get them and can we put them together? I don't even I don't bait here, but we have some weird rule. I'm gonna get it completely wrong, but it's basically you can have five or ten gallons of bait every two hundred and fifty yard space. Blah blah blah.

But but there are rules that govern it and here for for deer and elk, it's it's legal debate and very very patternable. The nice thing is once you got this pattern down, even during the rut, these elk will typically swing by to see what's you know, in your apple pile, or what's in your alfalfa pile or whatever you're using, you know, crack corn, whatever it may be.

They they become very patentable, which is nice because that now lets you set up your ground blind, or that now lets you set up your tree stand in the opposite direction. You know, from a trail camera, you can see how they're going to approach, where they're going to approach. You're gonna know what the winds like in that location the majority of the time. So baiting can be very very So you know, I have a high level of success. I'm not going to get into the arguments over whether

it's ethical or any of that. It is what it is. I'm just saying that it can be very effective. And if you know, I like the idea for young kids that are trying to get their first elk maybe you know elderly or and I say that not as a not to put people down that do it that aren't young or elderly, but it's an effective way. Like in the end, I always try to remember we're all out here for different reasons. I love eating milk still, right. We talk about all of this and we we go

do it in the mountains and whatever. But in the end, it's like I just want to freezeer full of elk. And so it's a great strategy if it's legal, and people should look into it if available. So those are we didn't spend a whole lot of time, but those are things and ideas. There's kind of a pros and cons in the heading into betting zone. There's pros and cons the wallows, ambushing spot in stock tree stand hunting, baiting. But those are some things you always need to think about.

And they're never below me or above me. Why I'm out there elkhunting. I'm always trying to call them in but and it's typically triggered by the bigger bulls. If bigger bulls aren't susceptible to calling, but I definitely want to focus on them or I want a chance to kill that bowl. These are the things that we start to think about all right, So I gotta go get him in his betting zone without making a call. Do I is he visiting a wallow that I think is

over there? Because you know, ONYX map shows a depression that seems to have water. Am I gonna have to ambush him? You know, all of these things come into play, and they're always an option. They're always uh, you know, in the toolbox, and we will use them occasionally throughout a hunt if we feel that that is our best

success of killing that bowl. And like I say, it's a little cliche, but I'm always every decision we make, every bowl we go after, like in the back of my mind, it's always like, well, that's got a thirteen percent chance of work, and I give this a two percent chance of work. And you know, if some of these other things, like all right, I honestly think they've went through that gap two nights in a row. At

this time, it's within a five minute span. I'm going in there with pretty high confidence that that's going to work. So you're always weighing your options. Yeah, there's multiple ways to do this and be successful and in the end, find something that you love to do, Like if you love calling elk, then go do it that way if you love to call oak, but it doesn't matter if you you know, wait on a wallow, go do that. Go out and elk hunt, enjoy the rut in September.

It's a magical time to be in the woods. And go do it however you want to do it, regardless of whether you know, I'd rather be a glow bowling or you know that's what you want to do. Go have fun. We appreciate y' all, thanks for joining in listening to this episode of cutting the Distance, and we got another. We'll have some more Elk episodes heading your way, as September is getting really really close. The copy a fam