Ep. 27: Simple Rules to Kill More Whitetail with Don Higgins

a few two inchineers sprinkled in the mix. His track record speaks for itself, and that's one of the things I like you know about Dawn, At least from my perspective, he seems to be a humble man that has allowed his track record to do the speaking and not necessarily his own mouth down has quite the resume when it comes to educating white to hunters. He is the host of the Chasing Giants podcast. He is the author of two books, Hunting Trophy white Tails in the Real World

in Real World white Tail Icons. He's the owner of real world wildlife products that stems from his agricultural background. In addition to all of this, Dawn continues to speak at seminars around the country, and then in all of his free time, he still runs a white tail consulting service UM that continues to grow in demand with each and every passing year with no further ado. Welcome to the show, Dawn, Well, thanks for having me. Glad to

be here. Yeah, how's your season been. Oh it's been uh, I don't even know what the word I'd want to use is probably uh different. It's been different than any season that I've ever experienced. And that's saying something after forty six years of deer honey. But uh no, I've got I've I've had some really nice bucks and range. Um, I've I've passed three bucks that are really good. One of them would have scored over one and uh got

all that on video. But uh, you know, I like to old the story with these bucks and let him get mature. And when I say mature, I'm talking six years old. I know a lot of guys are saying calling him mature at four. But so, I you know, my season has been good. I haven't shot anything, but I've seen a lot of really nice bucks that have the potential to be super in another year. Or two. Good, do you have any any time left in the stand or things starting to wind down? Um with the tags

that you have? Well, I hope I still have some time to think of it is my consulting business just gets so busy starting about December one through the the rest of the entire winter into spring until it greens up that it doesn't leave me a whole lot of time. But I'm hoping around the holidays and such that I can find some time to get back in the tree.

Perfect Perfect Can you give the audience a quick rundown for people who don't know who you are on you know where you started and and kind of the quick timeline to to where you're at now. Well, I actually started as a freelance outdoor writer back in uh North American Whitetail published my first article, and in the years since, I've had literally hundreds of articles publishing just about every major hunting magazine. Um. That led to me writing a book.

And also, you know, a lot of the readers of those magazine articles, I think they recognized me as speaking from experience instead of just repeating and regurgitating things I'd heard. And uh, you know, I did things a little different. I kept I keep things simple, but but they work, and I think the readers recognize that. And I started getting calls from people asking me to look at their properties and and you know, help them with their hunting success.

And so that led to my consulting business. And then along the way, uh, you know, the whole land management thing kind of exploded. I think it probably started about fifteen twenty years go. Um, and you know, with my agg background, I started a food plot seed company. Um, this will be we're getting ready to start our fifteenth year in business next year. But it's a company that's just done fantastic and continues to grow as it has

every year for fifteen years. But uh so you can see that I've got my hand and a lot of different pots, but they've all got to do with white tails and white tail land management. And it all started, you know, back with those uh first magazine articles twenty six years ago. Nice. Yeah, you you you touch on something there about it's fairly simple. And you know we talked a little bit before and and out west On

on the Elk education and Elk cunning education. You almost feel guilty when you try to break down what you really do and it. You know, we we add all of this additional information to it, but it is when you boil it down, it's a very simple recipe. Sometimes and people, I think, want to make this monster out of a mole hill and it's like, no, it really is that simple. But you don't. You almost don't want to insult the person by by telling them it's that simple,

because they're they're struggling to grasp it. And um, yeah, I picked up on you saying that it. You know, white tail um hunting may be simple if if you choose to make it that way. Yeah, I think, Uh, there's a lot of deer hunters that overcomplicated. They make it way more difficult than it really is. And there's some basic rules that you gotta follow, and I think what happens is a lot of times deer hunters don't follow those basic rules. And you know, one of them

is learning to play the wind. There's no no getting around it. You either learn to play the wind when you hunt these big bucks or you're not gonna be successful.

And there's nothing you can buy that's gonna help you. Sure, there's products that are you know, made to control your your odor, but do you realize how a mature box using the wind, even if few is sent free, that mature buck is maybe not going to come past your stand or probably not going to come past your stand if the conditions are not right for him to do so safely. He's got to feel safer he's not doing it.

And it is really simple, but there's some basic things that you absolutely have to nail or everything else doesn't really matter. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense, and we'll make some more comparisons down there. And I got some questions for you on scent and you know, given them a win a little bit um. But like every Cutting the Distance podcast, we're gonna feel a few questions um from our listeners. And if you want to submit a question of your own, you can email us at

ct D at Phelps game Calls dot com. So the first question we got, I'm trying to get account of deer on my property, When and how should the census be taken? And I'm gonna add something on that they didn't. I'm assuming it's going to be a little dependent on region and kind of where you're at during the cycle. But what's your answer to to one should people be looking um to try to get a good count um,

you know, on on bucks and does on their property. Well, to be honest, that's something that I don't deal with a whole lot. And the reason for it is most of the landowners that I'm consulting with I have smaller acreage. And why smaller, I mean under a thousand acres, some of them under a hundred acres, but um definitely under

a thousand acres for the most part. Now, I've done a couple of bigger properties, and when you're talking about a property of you know, two or three or four hundred acres, it doesn't matter what you do on that property to try to influence the local herd. If your

neighbors aren't on board, it's not gonna work. And you know you could if you've got an overpopulation a deer, for example, you can shoot twenty five do on your farm, and if your neighbors aren't helping you out, thirty more are going to come from their farm and replace the just shot and you're gaining nothing. So you know, and most of the time it almost takes the stay game agencies to set the regulations as far as has herd management or herd control, and if the individual landowner really

doesn't have a whole lot he can do. And for that reason, that's something that I just don't address with my clients. Now, if I was like on some of the bigger ranches, say down in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and that part of the world, it would be a totally different story. But those just aren't my clients and and that's not my niche. If you will, okay, that makes that makes a ton of sense. Um. The second question, when boining from an elevated stand, where do you like

to aim at a dear? Does this changed on the feedback you're getting from the buck head downlooking your direction ears back, any of those things, but where are you aiming from an elevated stand? Well, First of all, shot selection is is absolutely critical. Um. I will only take a broadside or slightly quartered away shot. Um. And when I do that, you know I'm aiming for the offside shoulder, so not the shoulder closest to me, but the the

far side shoulder. UM. I want my arrow to uh and I only hunt with the bow, so I'm only talking about bow honey. Um. I want my arrow to to hit both lungs, and that's what I'm shooting for a double lung hit. Um I'm aiming. It depends on how close the deer is and how high I am, but you know, typically I want that arrow about one third of the way up that deer's body and uh, right behind the shoulder piece if he's totally broadside. Now, if he's quartered away, then i want it back a

little farther, and I'm aiming for that off shoulder. But the double lung shot is the only shot that I think is ethical. So with that, with that said, are you you know, coming from from out west, you know a lot of our elk our mill dear don't tend to jump. I say, there's there's always the exception, but for the most part, they don't jump the string like what like we've seen whitetail, you know, growing up on watching all the TV show you know things duck eight

ten inches. So you're not aiming any lower than the vital shots you're you know, you're still aiming at that bottom third to make or do you account for some sort of duck um And I don't. I'm aiming for that bottom third. But I also am not a proponent of long shots, to be honest, it's almost I can't even remember the last time I shot over thirty yards,

and most of my shots are twenty and under. The fifteen to twenty yard range is where I'm shooting, so, um, you know, I'm aiming at that lower third of the body and I'm getting a good hit and passed through and and clean kills you know, almost every time. So

you know shot selection is the key. Yeah, yeah, I I was fortunate enough to shoot my dear eight yards and you know by that time, whether they heard it or not, they don't have near the time to move, and you know your hair is gonna hit right where you ended it too, So um perfect. Thanks for answering those once again. If you have any questions for us here or my guests at Cutting the Distance, please email us or message us at ct D at Phelps Game

Calls dot com. So on today's episode, I want to dive into hunting white tail bucks and maybe more specifically, what it takes to grow and hunt the next level bucks, as well as making sure you have mature bucks kind of in the pipeline coming up. I feel like a lot of Western hunting translates to white tails and its simplest form Hunting is always going to be broken down into things I can control, things I have an effect on,

and then things that are out of my control. And with within those, I tend to focus on things we can control. And then what I'm hoping to get from Dawn today is is dive into some of those things where through decision making, we can at least predict or at least limit the variables of those things out of our control. UM when it comes white to hunting, and that's I'm very you know, Donna, I've got an engineering background background. I break things down into like it's simplest

form and then start to categorize. So as an engineer, I you know, I want things you know in their coffers like I wanted to make sense, and so that's everything out west. It's like, all right, I can control this, I can have an effect on this, and then there's some things that are out of my control as far as like you know, where they're gonna be. But by putting myself in a place where we're trying to, you know, UM,

limit those variables that are out of our control. UM. As we talked earlier, I'm someone that's new to the you know, someone new to the white tail game. UM. And then it's a little daunting. As I got home from this past time, you know, I jump on the internet, I'm watching YouTube, I'm reading articles, and it's very, very tough to try to figure out what information is good and proven and then what may have very good supporting arguments but may not work or actually make your hunting

area or you're hunting property worse. UM. And so one of the reasons I was drawn and really wanted to bring you on the podcast is you weren't afraid to say you know that some ideas could be bad, you know when uh, you know, and I really like that. UM. I'm I'm the same way. I'm not afraid to say that I think that's a bad idea and you shouldn't

do that. Um. When it comes to hunting tactics and techniques. UM. And I want to know, you know, through through all of your experiences you mentioned earlier forty two years, I want to know if something you know, how many times something worked out of a hundred and and guess what, even better, if you've seen or did something a thousand times, how many times did it work in your favor? How many times didn't so you can start to put a plan together. Um. So I'm gonna pick your brain a

little bit. I've got a series of questions and we'll just kind of walk through them, um and see what you have to say. Okay, Um, so pretty cliche. Um, pretty obvious statement here, But we all know when it comes to hunting, we can only kill what we can see. And this may be one of the biggest crucks it seems like as a white tail hunter. Um, I'm starting

to learn very quickly. The properties we were hunting had big deer on cameras at night, and we were having a heck of a time finding him during the day because they just weren't They didn't seem to be moving. Maybe we were missing them. But um, is there a best manage a practice to make sure you're seeing, you know,

the majority of your mature deer in the daylight? Can you affect that or is that something that's naturally inherent and just kind of built into a deer or can you design your property, um, you know, to to to help out in that situation for seeing mature bucks in the daylight. Well, I mean that's a great question and I address it with every single client that I meet with and and you've got to hunt mature deer on the property they spend their daylight hours on, and that

means you've got to hunt them where they're bad. So when I meet with a client, the first thing I'm doing, and I'm looking at his property is I'm figuring out what do we gotta do to get the local bucks to bed on this property. And most deer hunters, I mean the vast majority of deer hunters, put way too much pressure on their property. The bucks are trying to kill, they bump them off and they don't have a chance.

And I tell my clients all the time, if you are one property over from where a deer beds, so if he's bedding right across the line on the neighbor, your odds of killing that deer ten percent what they are if you're on the same property. So you know, right out of the gate, you gotta be hunting them on the properties where they bed. Okay, now, um, you know you're you're a big proponent of providing a sanctuary. Do you do you what if the betting is that sanctuary?

Do you consider the betting the sanctuary? And if so, how much pressure will you be willing to put on that betting area or getting as close to the betting and maybe away from their feet as possible so that you can catch them in the daylight. Yeah, I'm a huge proponent of sanctuaries. In fact, I've said many times, if I had a five hundred acre property, fifty of it would be a sanctuary, I would never go into. Fifty of it would be food plots, and I'd hunt

the edge. So um, you know, I never go into the betting cover of the sanctuary per se, but I'm always hunting on the edge of it, and it's always the down wind edge. So my sin is blowing out of that sanctuary and I'm on that down wind side. It's just a perfect place to be when those bucks are cruising. Um, if they feel comfortable, they think that

sanctuary is the safe zone. They've never encountered humans there, They're gonna be on their feet a lot more daylight hours, and when they are, they want to be on that down wind edge because then they can smell all that cover. They can detect you know, a hot dough or you know danger as well, So it works perfect. I've killed numerous bucks this way, but having an undisturbed sanctuary on your property and and hunting it properly on the down wind edge at all times is absolutely key to a

lot of my success. So another way to pose this question, if you were to look at a piece of property and and figure out where the deer like the bed, is it a good strategy to try to put some food plots with in close proximity to it. As you've mentioned, not disturbed their betty, their sanctuary. But but it's getting that food or or even minor food sources. You know,

you're smaller plots. Um, is that a good strategy to get those deer on their feet and maybe catching before they're you know, on their way to big agg later in the night, um or something like it would we're just getting you know, that food a little closer to bed kind of assistant in daylight, you know, well, as long as that food is not within the bedding cover,

if it's out on the edge. Yeah, that's a great strategy. M. I've I've seen I don't know how many UH consultants or white tail habitat so called experts claim, for example, um, when you plant switch grass that you should have you know, clover and forbes and things in there for the deer to eat. You don't want just a monoculture of switch grass, you want to you want some food in there for

him too. Well. I totally disagree with that. If a buck on my property wants to eat, I don't want him to just stand up in his bed and drop his head and start feeding. I want to force that dear to have to move from his bed to his food. And that movement is what makes him killable. Uh, that's the pattern we're hunting. If he doesn't have to move, well, he's way harder to kill. Yeah, and that that makes

a ton of sense. Um, you know, why would you want that dear to get up out of his bed eat there without having to come where he's shootable, Because you're not gonna be able to set a stand or a very you know, a very effective stand necessarily in that switch grass or you know you want that to be there. You know there their security, they're sanctuary, somewhere

where they feel safe. And you know it just seems, you know, common sense says, don't don't let him eat in there, just let him bed in there, or or use it for security. Um, but to you and I, but I don't think it is to some people. Yeah, I mean that it's one of the things we use. We don't like to hunt elk necessarily in the center of their food. We don't like to hunt elk in their bedding area. We will at times go into their bedding area, especially late in the hunt. We're running out

of time and we're on public ground. You know, it's not we we don't got the whole, you know, it's not a private, chunk of private so we will go in there. But a lot of times we're trying to do the same thing. Is whether people want to draw similarities or not, we're really trying to hunt them closer to their you know, their bet their food in the morning, and then we're trying to hunt them a little closer to their bed in the evening, and we're doing something

real similar. Um. One last question on you know, getting deer in daylight? Is it your opinion? And I've I've tracked this, I've I've seen you answer this before. Maybe that, uh dear, Maybe the best pattern you can put on a deer is what they did the year before. If you've got good indicators on that deer as far as you know, and some of the talk. You know, the the examples that you've shared and other people have shared

is it's almost to the day. Um, you know, we're that deer will start to show up on a property, or that deal deer will start to show in the daylight. Um. Is that some of the most valuable information you use when you know, if if that deer showing similar patterns from year to year, that you're gonna base will you base a hunt on that that similar pattern? Absolutely? You know. I was the first one to write about this back

in two thousand and three. I wrote an article for North American Whitetail magazine titled same time, Same Place, And to that point, I've never heard anybody talk about it. Now it's pretty well accepted today. A lot of people have wrote about it and talked about it, made videos about it. But there is an uncanny pattern among mature bucks to show up at this same time at the same place year after year. And I'm talking down to

within about a forty eight hour period. So you know, a lot of times these white tail box will will spend their summers and bachelor groups in one location and then you know, as fall draws near and they start shedding their velvet and a testosterone levels start rising, those bachelor groups will break up and those bucks will shift to their fall range and they will move sometimes, you know, miles.

And what I've found is when those bucks shift to that fall range, it's almost to the day, a year after year, to the day, they'll show up on a property where they haven't been all summer. Um. There was a buck that I shot in uh and when was it? Uh? It's a buck that I had watched grow up for six years and I watched him since he was a year and a half old. Is a year and a half full buck. He had six points on each side,

just a little tiny twelve point rack. But I kept track of him, and I thought he might have a chance to hit two hundred, and I just kept walking away from the opportunity to hunt him. And during that six years that I watched him grow up, I hit on a pattern that this buck was showing up on this one property I had permission to hunt about the first time he would show up for the entire year. The first date he would show up would be about November six and the last day he would be there

would be about November twenty. And what he was doing was he was. There was a lot of doughs bedding on that property, and this buck was showing up to you know, find a hot dough, checking up that dough group out, and you know, I had him down to a t. And so the year I decided to kill him, when he was six and a half years old, I had my stands ready and I knew, don't even go in there and hunt. Don't put any pressure on that

property until November six. Well, November six rolls around. I had two stands on that property, and I needed very specific winds to hunt those stands. November six rolls around. The winds wrong, I can't hunt. November seven, the wind's wrong, I can't hunt. November eight. Finally, the wind was right. I go in there. The first morning that I ever hunted for that deer, I killed him. And uh and you know, I have nine o'clock and that first morning, six years I watched that buck and then kill him

on the very first hunt, same time, same place. I knew when he was gonna be there. That trail camera history is so important when I'm chasing these big deer. Trail cameras have almost made it easy. Yeah, yeah, it's it's nice to have those choke cameras to build those patterns and uh, you know, really really put the variables or the unknowns or the things working against yet you know, at least you can get a solid plan on those and then let the wind. Like you said, the wind

was the variable on that one. You just had to wait for the right wind and then that was the only one you're really having to play. So um, yeah, makes a ton of sense. So my next question, Um, there's a lot of information about you know, creating betting areas and figuring out where the does like the bed and the bucks need to bed behind them according to food and you know you've been Um, I hope not, I hope I don't miss quote you here, but you know you've you've said to allow them to bed where

they want and don't put the pressure on them. No need to go in there and make betting they're gonna be there. Um. With that said, what do you if you're building a property and say you don't have the timber or you do have the timber, what would you say the preferred betting is if you were going to go in and work over a property, are you trying to create timber betting? Are you trying to create crp uh? You know betting? Um? You know? Are they always gonna

bed behind the does? Can you give us a little bit on if you're gonna build perfect beds? You know, are you gonna go into hinge cut um? Like? Where do big mature bucks like to hang out and feel secure? It boils down to one thing, freedom of human intrusion. They would rather bet in a wide open woods with no cover whatsoever. If there's no human activity in there, then they would the bed in the thickest, nastiest place

they could find if it's overrun with human pressure. UM. I totally totally disagree, and I got all kinds of firsthand experience to back it up. This idea that the bucks are gonna bed here and the does are gonna bed in front of them and all this nonsense. It's it's total garbage. It doesn't work that way. People try to make it way more complicated than it really is.

It boils down to freedom of human intrusion. Now you asked about the type of cover, Well, I look at betting cover on the property that I'm managing or I'm developing a plan for um, the same way I do the food sources diversity. I want as many different food sources on the property as I can get, and I want as many different kinds of betting cover. Also, I want diversity. I want some switch grass. I want some you know, thick second growth. I want some mature timber

with a really thick understory. I just want diversity. And the reason for that is I've noticed on my own farm that there are certain individual bucks that will prefer different types of betting cover. For example, I've got bucks, and I've had mature bucks on my farm that they preferred to bed in the switch grass, and day after day after day, you could just about count on those deer in the afternoon evening coming out of the switch grass.

That's where they would bed day after day. And other mature bucks they always wanted to bed in the wooded cover. So I think diversity is key. And if you think of it from a land management standpoint, um talk about diversity. Let's say you're the only guy in the neighborhood who has a big switch grass patch on your farm and one of those bucks comes alonge that likes to bed in the switch grass. Well, guess what he's betting on

your place day after day after day. That's why diversity is so important, so that you can kind of um, you know, curtail your farm or design your farm for every buck. You're not just trying to accommodate those bucks that that like the switch grass. You're also trying to accommodate the ones that like the wooded cover. So diversity is key, but it really boils down to human intrusion or freedom of human intrusion. That's what a mature buck demands.

He's not gonna put up with it. I'm gonna talk a little bit later about the sanctuary, but I have to ask the question just why you talked about human presence and you I think you know, if people go back and watch material, you probably said it a thousand times, if not more, which you know, I've always said you hear you hear something more than three times, it's important by the guy talking about it. And so you know, obviously sanctuary is very very important. But to a you know,

when you say no human intrusion, is that zero? Is that checking your trail cameras three times? Is that you can ride your your you know, a fourler trail along the edge of it a couple of times a year, like the definition of you know, no human intrusion or is it just one of those things where the more the better or does it have to be you know, you know, I guess another way to phrase this is what will a big buck let you get away with? Well, they're all individuals, and one will let you get away

with a lot and the other one nothing. And a good example that's trail cameras. You know, one buck, he'll walk in front of a trail camera and he'll pose day after day after day, and you get dozens of pictures of him. Another buck here, you get his picture one time on a trail camera and boom, he's gone. He's not coming past that camera ever again. UM. With betting cover or a sanctuary, when I say zero, I mean zero. I mean I don't have trail cameras inside

the sanctuary. UM, I don't have paths for four wheelers or anything in the sanctuary. Uh. The closest I get to the sanctuary is hunting the edge of it. As far as going into it, there's only three times I'll go into it. One is to do habitat work in the off season. Once the season is closed in the

winter before spring green up. I will sometimes go in if if I need to thicken things up, you know, I'll go into chainsaw whatever I need to do to maintain good Habitat the other times, if I shoot a deer and he runs into sanctuary, well obviously I'm gonna go get him as to retrieve a deer. And the third time is one day every spring, and one day I go into my sanctuary to look for ship antlers. And when I go, I usually take my grandson's and

son in law and daughter they go along. Um. Sometimes a couple of friends will go along and we do the ship antler one time. We don't drag it out. We don't go back three or four times. It's like one day we go in, we cover it all, we get out, and we stay out. But from the time that things green up in spring, stay around the April one or so, through the entire summer and through the entire hunting season, nobody's in the sanctuary, nobody for anything.

Okay that that that clears it up. So sanctuary is absolutely you know, as close to zero as possible with with three exceptions. Um yeah, so, so no human presence. Um all right, uh. You you've been quoted many times. You all, you said it earlier in this one, you know, on the on the November six Buck when we're trying to when we're trying to put together patterns, um. You know you you you typically only need two to three

days to go in and kill your target. Buck. Um. With that said, do you have a preferred time to be in the stand? Would you rather go in pre you know, pre rut um, you know, in the lockdown phase post rut um, or are you looking for whether it's something else determining when you're gonna be in that stand you know, cold fronts um rut um you know there some people have said they're more patternable in the pre rut, Like when do you like to be in the stand when you get the right conditions? Well, the

rut is absolutely my least favorite time to hunt. In the rut. If you kill a giant in the rut, there is more luck involved than anything, and I want to kill him on purpose. I guess I'm not that lucky, So I've got to work and put the odds in my favor. And you know, I'm fine with pre rut. That's a great time, Um. Early season right out of the gate. If you've got those bucks coming to a food source and they're undisturbed, that's a great time to

kill a giant um. You know, the end of October, when they're starting to to hit scrapes, that's a good time. But you know, after about oh say, the fifth or so of November, they become pretty tough. Now, I say that my favorite day, if I had to pick a favorite day of the entire season, it would be November seven, simply because those bucks are on their feet so much. Um. The dose aren't quite in heat yet, and those bucks

are covering a lot of territory looking for him. But to be honest, if I had to pick the best time to kill, I'm mature buck on purpose, a one particular buck that you've got your eye on to kill him on purpose. The best time to do it is in the late season, during a brutal cold spell and on an afternoon hunt, because in those conditions there's no

such thing as a nocturnal buck. When it gets down to zero, those bucks got a feed to stay alive, and every afternoon, an hour before dark, they're on their feet and they're headed to the food or they're in this movie. By that time, that is the best time to catch him mature buck on his feet, because I'm not talking about one buck, I'm talking every buck in the area during those conditions are on their feet feeting. Yeah. And um, we we noticed that this year on that

White Toil hunt. We had we had good intentions of being there from October November five. Um, I drew a big bull tag and things schedules got mixed around and we couldn't get out there until November tenth, and we hunt until you know, we had planned November ten, and it was an awesome time to be in the woods, not such an awesome time to figure out where all the deer had been that had been on cameras the

entire time. And then when we did see a big buck, a lot of times he was running, you know, a hundred twenty yards away and you had no control over getting getting him to go on the path. He had been going for the you know, three months ahead of that. So we learned really quick that you know, lockdown stage whatever people want to call the peak r It was just like he doesn't respond to a call, he doesn't look this way, he doesn't respond to rattling there's nothing

you can do to get him off that dough. And so you you became an observer, um of the white tail at that point, not a hunter of them. Um. It seemed like at times, um, yeah, where the week before they had great success. You know, the bucks that they knew were there, they had on cameras coming to certain areas. Um, you know, they get a little bit of that pre red you know, bucks on their feet a little more, starting to cruise a little more, get

a little more confident. And they seemed to do really well that those ten days before we had out there. So um, yeah, they all seem to be on board with that as well. Um. Moving on to weather. Um, you know it includes all kinds of variables we've got When people talk about weather, Um, you know, what's the temperature gonna be. What's the precept or we getting rain or snow based on the temperature? Um, you know, barometric pressure rising, um, you know dropping, um, you know the

wind and so on. And then to complicate all of that, you've got you know how those factors change within a set amount of time. So the temperature is thirty two, but it's dropping from sixty is important versus oh the temperatures. You know, thirty two dropping from thirty four. It's not as big as wings. So you have these factors, but then you also have how those factors are changing with the set amount of time. Um. So all of those factors. I've heard you say it multiple times. You know weather

affects your decision. But what what weather are you looking for? What are you looking for as far as temperature pre sip, you know, barometric pressure, wind, you know all of those things. I know the answers, but I'm kind of you know, I know what your answer is, but if you can kind of kind of lead into what you're looking for, you know, from an ideal weather standpoint, Well, I want

a cold front. Um, I want that cold front. For example, last year, we had a cold front that the temperature was had been twenty degrees above normal and then the cold front come through and it just dropped those temperatures to about normal. Well, that ain't much of a cold front. I want that cold front to come through and drop the temperatures below normal for that time of year by at least ten degrees or more, and that that will really affect your movement. I want the barometer to be rising. Um.

If you can get over thirty, that's fantastic. Um. At the same time that weather is coming through. Um. I like those fronts that come with east winds. For some reason, I've just had phenomenal success, honey, east winds. Those east winds almost always accompany a weather front. They don't just happen. So you know, I've had success on the front end and the back end of the front. They're all just

a little bit different. But it needs to drop the temperature at least ten degrees below what would be considered normal for that time of the year in that area. Okay, so you don't necessarily care about a twenty degree temperature swing if it's only getting you back to normal. You're looking for a temperature swing that gets you below normal. And then at that point it could be maybe a ten fifteen degree temperature switch. But at least it's getting

colder than, uh than the normal. It's not just Now, would you look at something the example you gave where you are getting a change in temperature, does that not necessarily equate to good hunting. It's gonna it's gonna obviously be better than maybe what you had during the warm spell,

but it's not going to be that exceptional switch, right. Yeah, if the temperture drops twenty degrees and it had been twenty degrees above normal and it drops you down to normal, well the deer activity is definitely going to be better than it had been, but it's still not gonna be what it could be if it was normal and then drop ten degrees. Um, I would rather hunt that cold front. The rain or snow affect your decision to be in a tree positive negatively heavy rain will keep me out,

and that's more about the blood trail than anything. Uh. I don't want to take a chance on losing a deer. And you know, if it's heavy rain, well you know who'd likes to sit out there and get soaked anyway? But I don't mind a really light rain. I really like when it's one of those overcast November days and um you get some sleep, you know, just a little bit of sleep. That first kind of really winter cold front moves through, and um, I just love that kind

of condition. Yeah. I think that's maybe precipitation might be the one factor on why I don't like hunting black tails out here anymore, because my dad doesn't even get excited until the winds forty mile straight sideways and you can't hold your eyes, you know, eyes open, and that's the time our blacktails move. And and it's like, yeah, I'm I'm, I'm with you. I don't necessarily want to be out they're um getting soaked. Um you know what why I'm hunting now if it if it's good, I'd

be out there. But similar to to what you said, you know, your blood trails, you always gotta worry about that, um, you know, and no matter how good a shot you you, you may be at risk and not finding them. So um and then wind absolutely yeah. In fact, this this season, I we had some really windy days. And you know, I run a series of cameras. I've got about fifty trail cameras and um a dozen of those are cell cameras.

So I know, without a doubt, with that many cameras on that on different properties, when the deer moving or they're not moving, I know it because when they're moving, my phone's lightening up with those cell cameras going off. When they're not moving, my phone is dead. And the interesting thing this year is I really paid close attention and uh on the days that that was dead calm, the deer activity was dead as well, and I came to the conclusion. Now, I just came to it this season. Um.

You know, I'm always learning, just like everybody else. I don't know at all and always trying to get better. But I just figured out this season that on those windy days, that that's a great time to hunt, just like you were saying your dad last time, when it's forty mile an hour. I'll tell you what. My cameras were lightening up when the wind was thirty miles an hour, and uh, the dead calm days, the cameras were dead. Huh, yeah, that's I know where we hunted. You know in Kansas.

They they don't like being out at all. If there's no wind. There's like the deer movement almost you know, goes down to nothing on those days. Um, at least from their experience, at least you know where where their stands. Right, Maybe they're moving somewhere else, but um, not where they want them to be when there's no wind. Um, they expect to have the wind. They they use that for you know, for their safety. And if there's no win, they're just gonna sit still a little longer. Yah. I

agree with that a hundred percent. I had that point driven home this season. What's your opinion on the second rut? I know what it is, but then, uh, do you believe that those younger fawns, um, your legs will run later and so it's just one long, continuous rut or do you not believe you know, in any of that and and you know the right it happens in the

middle of November. Well that I think outdoor writers, me being one, UM have kind of you know, we're we're always looking to coin terms to you know, sell articles and gain attention. At least that was the way it was before the Internet became so prominent. And I think today these guys that have blogs or videos on online YouTube channels, they're always looking for terms they can coin,

like the dough factory for example. Um, the second rut was coined by outdoor writers, I don't know, thirty forty years ago, and I think that people just don't understand how the rut actually plays out, and it plays out the same every year. You you've got if you think of those does coming into heat in a bell shaped curve, you got that period where it peaks where there's the most of them in heat, and then towards the end

of November it tapers off. Well, doe fons are not going to come into heat, you know, exactly thirty days after the the mature does. It just don't happen like that. Doe funds coming to heat based on their body weight when they get about eighty pounds, are coming into heat, and that the in fact, the majority, in my opinion,

the majority of doe fons are bred in January. There's some bread in February and even later, but I think the majority of do fons that get bred their first year, Now, some of them don't get bread that first year because they never achieved the body size to bring them into you know, sexual maturity and into heat. But the majority of do fons that come into heat and do get bread that first year are gonna get bread in January. But it's not gonna be like a certain week in

January or anything like that. It's just gonna be you know, here and there, and when it happens, you know, the bucks are on top of it. They're gonna take advantage of it. Um. But that's nothing that you can mark on the calendar. The other the other thing that the whole second red idea a false. Um. Part of that theory, if you will, is they promote the idea that during that peak breeding season, some does don't get bread on

their first estra cycle. Well, I believe that the number of dose that don't get bread on their first estra cycle is so minuscule. I mean it's probably not one in a thousand dough. Um. Every buck in the woods is capable of breeding a dough, including a lot of button bucks. If a dough comes in heat, she's gonna have the attention of bucks and she's gonna get bread by at least one, if not ten, different bucks. She's

gonna get bread if she comes into heat. Now, you know, I think there's uh I had a research heard of captive white tails for twenty five years, so I got to see a lot of this stuff firsthand in a captive setting um where it was a lot easier to observe. And I think there's some individual does that are gonna come in heat on about the same day every year.

So if a doe comes in heat on November fourteenth this year, next year, she's probably coming in heat on the fourteenth, if not the thirteenth of the fifteenth within twenty four hours, she's coming into heat at the same time. And the idea that they're not getting bread is just I think it's just total garbage. Got you. No, that makes that makes a ton of sense. And you know you've got the you've got the experience and the you know, the the observation to to support that. Um, so a

few things. I don't want to dwell on these ones for too long, UM, do you there's there's there's some of these factors that that I've heard you talk about before. Um, how would you use mock scrapes and you know and water? Um? You know you can answer these separately, But I would use mock scrapes to potentially plan a hunt around or water? Or would you use them at all to plan your hunt around? And would you rather go you back to the idea of being on their path from betting the food. Well,

I would never use either to plan my hunt. But I do use mock scrapes, UM to inventory bucks on a property. You know, I can put that mock scrape wherever I want. I can put it in a place where I can easily check my trail camera and not disturb the property. Yeah, So I can create a mock scrape anywhere, and I don't care that the buck checks it at night. That don't bother me whatsoever. I just want to know what bucks are on that property, and if they're there, if there's a shooter buck there, I

can figure out where to kill him. I don't need to bring him into a mock scrape to do that. That's how I use them for inventory purposes. Water. I think water in much of the country is overrated. Um. I don't think that water is is the factor that's gonna change a lot of properties and make a take an average property and make it really good. Now, there's some situation, especially when you get out in the Plane State to talk about Kansas, that could be a different story.

Out there, water could be critical, But you get into the the Midwest, I just don't see it as being an issue whatsoever. There's just way too many water sources creeks and and ponds and whatever here and there. Now with I said, you can build a water hole and the deer absolutely gonna use it, no doubt about it. And if you put it in the right spot where you can um put a stand nearby that has good access, that you can hunt the wind with well, yeah, it can.

It can have a positive influence on your hunting success. But I think, you know, water sources, artificial man made water sources have been uh you know, way overstated or that their importance way overstated in the whitetail management community. I have a real dumb question which I assume. I don't want to assume the answer, so I'm gonna ask it. You know, out West, we always say olk have to go find water. They have to find standing water somewhere. They need to go to a pond, creek, lake, whatever

it is. Now. Mule deer, it's been well known that they can pull moisture either out of their food they're eating or out of the precipitation recovery at night. You know, cools down, water condenses out of the soil, out of the plants, and you know there's there's water available. Can white tail in your opinion, do they have to You mentioned it that, do they have to go to water? Can they get it through food and lush greens and

precip arcovery. Well, you know, one of the reasons that I've um got that opinion about water is an experience that I've had near my home. There's a a place that every summer there's a bachelor group on this section of land and from road to road to road, you know, surrounded by roads on four sides that section of land. There is not a water source anywhere on that and I've been all over it. There's not a water source.

It's mainly agg fields with some hedgerows and such. But every year there is a bachelor group of bucks that stays on that section and they're there day after day after day. And I've long wondered where are these deer getting their water? And I've got to believe that a majority of that water has to be coming from the plants are eating, and they're feeding heavily on soybeans that time of year, and you know, the moisture content in

those green soybean leaves has got to be high. I never dreamed it was high enough that they would not need to drink, but apparently it is. And that experience and these these bucks have been using this same place this summer for decades now, and they just every year there's a bachelor group there, but there's no water. And that's kind of driven my idea that water is way

overrated here in the Midwest. Yeah, I I, like I said, I would think if a meal deer could make it without ever going to a water source, um, white tail should be able to do the same. But I just didn't know that one. So yeah, thanks for that. Uh next one, Um, wind, you know, out west, it's all we think about. We've got we go through ten you know, puffer bottles of wind and and I see not really you know, two or three bottles were always checking the wind.

It's very very important, um. And one of my strategies is because why I do like a frontal shot on on bul elk. Um. One of the things we've always talked about is given them a little bit of the wind. And I'm willing to give him forty five degrees and ninety degrees of the wind, because what that does is somebody calling to the elk. Those elks similar to dear, They're gonna get to sixty sevent yards and try to

circle us and get wind. Well, if I give him ninety degrees of wind when they go to circle, it's gonna pull on broadside in front of me. Um, you know. Or if we have a caller and a shooter. So we've heard whitetail hunters talk about giving them the wind a little bit, and and uh, like I said, I don't want to misquote you, but some of your you know, some of those mature bucks, they're they're mature for a reason. They're smart. They're not gonna play the wind perfect you know,

you have a direct north wind. They're not gonna be dumb, and they're not gonna walk necessarily perfectly in a spot where they can get killed without putting any thought into it. And now that now they may, but that's the anomaly. And we're trying to you know, like you said, you're trying to kill a deer on purpose, not because you just for some reason walk directly, you know, with with no regard to the wind. Um. Can you give us a little bit of insight on how much you're willing

to risk the wind? And when you say give him the wind, are you willing like, are you taking as bigger risks as your wind, maybe crossing the trail you expect him to be on, but you'll shoot him before he gets there, or are you talking you know, ninety degrees? Kind of explain what giving him a wind um to to maybe fool that that bigger buck or or you know, beat him in that chest match. Well, when I was probably about nine years old, I'm at a white tail

legend Roger Rothar. Any white tail hunter that's fifty years old or older should remember Roger Rothar an absolute legend. And he told me I'll never forget. He told me the wind needs to be almost right for the buck and almost wrong for you, and that keyword being almost.

So if he's walking down that trail, he doesn't even necessarily want that wind straight in his face, but he wants a quartering in his nose, quartering into his And if it's quartering into his nose from either direction, then you can be off to one side of that trail and he's still got a good win for him to move. But you're off on the right side of the trail. Your sin is blowing not straight down the trail, but kind of down the trail, but off to the side.

And that's the situation that I'm always trying to set up. I think too many deer hunters a mistake they make is they're trying to get a buck to commit suicide. They're trying to get him to give up the wind and am ature buckets just not going to do that most of the time. Now, you know, occasionally they're gonna do about anything. But if you want to kill them consistently,

you've got to give him the wind. And that doesn't mean entirely, but you gotta give it to him enough that they think that they're safe and they're going to get up and walk in daylight hours, Um, with the wind that they're you're giving them. Okay, yeah, that you know. We we were in a few stands where we thought we had it perfect. You know, great wind when you look at an aerial um, you know, great wind. Everywhere we think they're betting, everywhere we think they're gonna go

is perfect. We were just inside of a fence line fifteen twenty yards is where are. We were in a blind that day. We were in a tree stand. Um, it didn't matter. The wind was perfect. But what we noticed is these these bigger bucks. We would we would hear something blow behind the stand or a dough, or we'd hear something kind of jet and we'd peek out one of the corners. You know, everything's kind of screwed up.

And he realized that he could walk down the fence line that was twenty yards behind us, and Win checked that entire patch of timber and we were inside of it, you know, and we're like, dang it, you know, but there was nowhere to set up because we had nothing but a wide open pasture behind us. But it got you thinking, like these bigger and that happened to two or three of the biggest bucks that walked by that, you know, some of the shooters that we were wanting

to target. You know, of course, we had all kinds of you know, three and a half four and a half year old bucks in front of us, but the two older bucks, they they win checked that out in the wide open field where you know, maybe they wouldn't feel safe, but it was actually safer to be there than inside, you know, where they could see and and it was kind of funny that we were playing the wind per fixed for all the deer in our shooting lane. But yet those deer still you know, out smart to us.

So you almost needed to move back or you know, if the if the blind would have been moved back and turned, you could have maybe seen him coming down the fence line and had a shot. What you know, you're only given him ninety degrees of wind, but that wind would have been better for killing them versus not having a chance to see him. So it kind of got got my wheels spinning of you know, it's like, yeah, you might need to give these things, you know, a

little bit of wind. You know, who knows if it happens like that every time, but you know, in my opinion, two times was consistent enough to to get you thinking that that that deer was out smartness and wind checking the whole entire patch of timber. Um, well, my chair bucks are absolutely gonna do it just about every time. That's we can go right back to the beginning of of this podcast, and I said hunted down to wind

edge of betting cover. Those bucks are gonna be on that down wind edge doing exactly what you just described. And when I'm sutting, when I'm hunting the edge, I'm hunting the very edge. And sometimes those bucks are even down wind and me, I've got my tree stand and the since blowing this way, and that buck he's walking by, but my sense going right out with the top of his back, Um, he's actually down wind. It just he's close enough that and the winds velocity is high enough

that my scent just carries right over his back. I've shot a lot of bucks that way. Yeah, and I got like I said, I'm I'm new, I'm getting educated. We spent um, you know, after the hunt, we we walked the property in some spots on on how we could maybe hunt that better. And that was one of the keys we looked at, you know, where to set a tree stand so that we could intercept the deer going down the fence still have good cover. Um. It

was kind of on a high point. So they felt, you know, like no matter which direction the wind blew, we were gonna be able to blow over the top of you know, the this eater Thickett kind of came out behind us, which we thought they were running, and they were running a lot of doors in there, and so you know really quickly, like you could set up there,

it's gonna give them the wind. But they thought in the location that tree would be, um, you know, nothing would really smell us, you know, or at least no area that was important to ever get our wind. Um And we could basically hunt three sixty around that stand. So um, yeah, it was kind of interesting where I was kind of scratching my head like why the heck would you put a stand here? But they were confident enough, you're high enough, nothing, you know, everything was dropping off. Um,

you'd be safe there and be able to shoot. So it's interesting to give him the wind a little bit. And then, um, I suspect next time I go back and hunt, hunt that place, we're gonna have a stand there and be able to capitalize on You know that that you know route that multiple big bucks were taken to check. Uh, you know a big timber patch. Mm hmm. It's all about the wind. Those big bucks are not going to give it up very often. If you're gonna

kill him consistently, you gotta play the wind. Yeah, makes makes a ton of sense. And and you know just what I on my one trip, Um, you know it kind of clicked. Uh you know that that whole idea of giving him a little bit um if not a lot of it. Uh m hmm. What does your scent control regiment look like? Um? You know, being a Western and I keep going back has been a Western guy like, we don't we've we've kind of given up on sent control. We used to spray my boots and wear elk Estra's

wafers on my hat early days. And then it's like, well, I've always got to breathe. I'm always sweating as I'm walking around the mountains. Like there's what I do in the washing machine and the dryer and throw them in a tub like the night before. Has no impact because within twenty minutes of me riding my bike or hiking up a mountain and you know, breathing out of my mouth or whatnot, Like I've given that up. Now you're going white to hunting. You know, I got busted a

couple of days. I'm like, man, they shouldn't have got me. See I see you three close back in there, sent you know, put put the scent killers all over it whatnot. Um, I'm curious what what does your scent control, you know, look like? And how much does it matter? Or are you like us out west? And if the wind's right, it doesn't matter. That's exactly right. You know. At one time I did everything you could possibly do in regards to scent control. I even took the little chlorophill tablets

you know, to control your body odor. I do use the sprays. I even carried a bottle to pee in and my tree stand and I I was still getting busted. You know, I was going to all this trouble and I was still getting busted. Today, I do absolutely nothing, nothing at all except play the wind. My clothes are laying in my garage, right next to my truck. They're not even sealed up in a toad or nothing. They're laying there. If you've got the wind, you've got the wind.

He ain't gonna smell you. If you don't, he's gonna smell you. And you know, I've given a lot of seminars, and then you know, I get this question a lot. Somebody will ask what do you do for scent control? And I'll turn it right around on the crowd, and I'll say, well, let me ask you. I'll use a question. How many of you use some sort of scent control product, use the clothing or the sprays or whatever. If you use anything at all for scent control, raise your hand.

Every hand goes up. I said, how many of you been winded by deer? Every hand still up in the air. It don't work, And I may work to some degree, it may control your order to some degree, but you're onto it. Man. Just forget that stuff and play the wind. And you either got it or you don't. Yeah, and you know, similar to you, some of your white tail management ideas you know of some of the other guys

you say, actually hurts you. I feel sent control can hurt because if there's any placebo effect where it's in your head and you think you can get away with something, you've now just maybe shortcut of the decision on a three location or you've shortcutted, you know, because you now you know got some you know it's it's start that way, like, you know, put the extra effort in, take a different trail to your stand you know, whatever you gotta do, just put in the extra effort and then assume that

you know that send control is not gonna work, and you'll make better decisions. Um, you know, be a little more conservative on your decisions. I think that's a fantastic point. Um. You know, if you know the deer's gonna smell you, you you know they're going to and they are, then you're gonna hunt different. You're gonna do whatever it takes to minimize those deer getting down end where they can smell.

You're gonna minimize or go out of your way to walk in in such a place or in such a way that those deer not very likely to catch your ground sent or encounter your ground sake, you're gonna do that, no one, they can smell you. But when you start using all these magic potions, well then you get this false idea in your head. Today I'm sent free. I can do whatever, and you know, walk to the woods and make all kinds of mistakes, and those products are

probably saved more dear than they ever helped kill. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, so I assume that it was just kind of curious. Um, you know, I just get worried. You know, it's like not having a ton of experience, not you know, having you know, thousands of deer walk by your stand, like you like what you

can get away with. But I learned really quickly, Like, man, if they're in that, I don't even want to I don't know, a hundred twenty degree fog behind you, like there's nothing you can do to unless you're high enough and it's just blown over them. But if you know there's molecules or whether it's ten molecules, a hundred of thousand, I don't know how to quantify scent, but if they get enough of it, there's nothing you can do. Um, you have to breathe, you have to your body is

putting off heat all the time. Um. In my opinion, you're just kind of um so uh. You know, with with my background being in deer calls and and trying to I I've heard you talk about gimmicks and whatnot, but um, you know, we we we need there is a way to use a deer's hearing against him, whether it's rattling, whether it's calls, whether it's grinning. What is your strategy when it comes to making noise from a stand?

Are you silent? Is there a Is there a time where a snort, wheez, a ground bleak or rattling may work? Or do you try to just be a fly on the wall the entire time and hope that the pattern of the deer works for you? Or is there a time where you you will use a call? Here there? Well, I almost never called blindly. Now, if I see a target animal that's out of range and I don't think he's working towards me, I will definitely use a call.

I do it a few time every year. But to be honest, I think at least here in the Midwest, I think every one of those gadgets, gizbos, whatever. I think they get so overused by every deer hunter in the woods that by the time a buck gets mature, he knows the game, so you know, it's it's so hard to call him. I I'm old enough that I remember the first grunt calls coming out and the first season that I had a grunt call. I'm telling you what, just about every time I blew that thing, a buck

came in. I mean it sounded like a buck and those bucks have never heard it before, and they came in Today. You're lucky to call in ten percent. And that's if you see them and you know he heard it because he pulls his head up and looks at you. You're lucky to get ten percent of them to come into your stand, And that was not the case. Now. I think that if you're in you know, places where there's not as much hunting pressure, um, then I think they're a lot more effective. You know, the same thing

that we said for decoys. I've had terrible experience with decoys, but I know guys in Kansas that swear by them that they decoy and multiple bucks every single year. But I'm telling you around here. They don't work. You'll spook twenty deer for every single one that comes in to check your decoy out. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that. One thing. One point I want to make and see if it kind of um you know, correlates with what

you've seen. You know, this is this is Kansas, well managed pieces of property to deer on these really probably only see you know, my buddy Randy, that that owns the place if anybody and nobody hunts it. Um, what I noticed, even with a well managed property, lots of bucks, different age classes. You know, we were seeing three and a half, four and a half, six and a half, you know, the whole gamut do you find or what I found sitting in the tree, you know, wanting to

test the calls and use them. Um, they were very very effective on deer that were four and a half and younger. Now, if I had a buck cruise that was five and a half or six and a half and he wasn't on lockdown, he was just doing the same you know, let's just say, slowly trotting down a trail. Um, same thing that these three and a halfs or four

and a halfs were doing. And I hit him with the same the same sound, same volume, you know, as much as I can do to be the same that that that older buck, more mature buck might look in our direction and he almost goes back to what he's doing. Where I had a very very high success rate on getting the three and a halfs in the four and a half to turn towards my tree. Um, you know, And so why And that's my own observation ten days

in the tree. I'm far from an expert, but there was enough of a of a pattern happening where it's like, oh, grunting in these these younger bucks is really easy. These big ones just don't seem to want to want to play the game, you know. Same thing with rattling. We had some buck come charging you know, the blind or the tree that we were in, depending on the day. Um, you know, older bucks very rarely. Um you know, and that's not not in lockdown. So yeah, just an observation

I made. You know, those three and a half four and a half somewhat easy to call in older dear not so easy. I agree with that a hundred percent. Those older ones, I've heard it before saying, and they probably circled down when too some guys sitting in a tree blowing the star spangled banner and it's a grunt too. You know. Well, I really appreciate having you on here, Dawn. Um, how can people find out more about you if they're interesting, you know, reading any more of your material, um, you know,

subscribing any that's you know, all of your platforms and whatnot. Well, they can go to my website which is Higgins outdoors dot com and uh my social media Higgins Outdoors on Facebook and Instagram. I've got a YouTube channel Chasing Giants with Higgins Outdoors, a podcast Chasing Giants that can be found on YouTube or any podcast platform. Um, I'm out there. If you just do a search for my name, you're

gonna find me. Um. After digesting a lot of your your information that you have to talk about outside of this podcast, and even going through this podcast, I assume I know what the answer is going to be on this one. But in closing, if you have one tip that you feel would give white tail hunters, uh, you know better odds um, you know and in years to come on their own property, what would it be? Uh? Freedom of human intrusion is the key. I mean, those

big bucks are not going to tolerate human intrusion. And if you find a place where human intrusion is very limited or nonexistent, there's a very good chance and that's gonna be the place you're gonna find them at your buck. And you can if you own your own farm, you can make it that way. And that's what I've done on my home farm. And I'm telling you, the biggest bucks in my neighborhood every single year or on my property. Yeah, and you I've heard you, you know, the Joey buck. Uh.

You know, these sanctuaries don't have to be big. He was on like a three acre piece, right, And I've heard you reference. You know, a single tree out in the middle of a field that's surrounded by some brush like that could be the sanctuary. You're just so when people go to look for these sanctuaries, you don't have to look at big you know, never ending tracks September.

It's just literally where nobody is bothering them. There's no real you know, it might be a corner of your neighbor's property, it might be a corner of your property you never go to, but that's where that Buck wants to be absolutely well said, all right, perfect, Well, thanks a lot, Don, good luck if you get a chance to get back up in the stand. And always always interested to learn from you. Um, you've got some great information out there. And uh, like I said, I appreciate

you having here on the podcast. Yeah, I'm well I did anytime, So thanks for having me, Jason, all right, thanks Don,