Ep. 26: Duck Calls and Duck Hunting Strategies with Alex Yerges

I would say, regarding the ducks and duck calls. So welcome to the show, Alex. Hey, thanks Jake, glad to be here. How things been besides busy, you know, just busy, I mean, as you know, because we talk every now and then, you know, in the middle of building the shop and trying to get some construction done in the cold weather and do all that. So we've had some very interesting days as of late. Yeah, for all of you that don't know, Alex Um as co owner of

Pacific Calls UM. They do a lot of work with us for us UM Over the last i'd say five years, five or six years we've we've worked together. We've grown together. It's it's been awesome. Um, but I know when to wave the white flag and bring in some duck hunting experts, some duck call experts. So I'm I'm glad to have him here. Um. Yeah. In talking with the local duck hunters here, it seems to be a pretty slow, rough start, even though as a Western big game hunter, it seems

like we've got the cold weather. It seems like we've got the snow, but evidently the it hasn't been the right weather at least down the I five corridor, um to bring any ducks. And they said they've they've been you know, shooting limits here and there, but it just hasn't been as good as it has the past twenty

years yet. Yeah. No, And I mean we've run into a little bit of that, and you know, we're we're we're in kind of a different you know, into the fly where the cascades really do divide us, you know, pretty pretty much. And so, uh we we spent a little timing up in Alberta chasing them around, and there was there was tons of food, there was a you know a fair amount of water for them to hang around in. So I think your your guys are probably right.

They just haven't seen the crazy amount of weather to really freeze them out and start pushing them down even though it feels like they should be here. I'm guessing there, you know, maybe one more real good cold snapper at least a long length of time cold snap before we'll be into them pretty thick. Yeah, they expect here in the next you know, within the next two weeks. We've

got some cold hitting. Right now, we're supposed to be in the you know, the high teens, low twenties for the next couple of weeks, hopefully we'll get a new push of birds in here. So um. And you know, from a calendar standpoint, that's usually about right for us too. In between Thanksgiving and Christmas is when we typically see are you know most of the migration you know passed through here? Gotcha? It might be on part just maybe

a little bit slower. So Um, Like we start all of these podcasts, we're gonna start with two questions from users. And um. The funny thing is, I'm not a prolific waterfowl hunter duck hunters, so I had to go dig for some of these questions on some of our past posts. But if you have a question of your own, UM for cutting the distance and my guests, please email us at ct D at Phelps game Calls dot com, or just go ahead and send over your questions to me

via message and we'll get them on here. So the first question I was able to pull, um, do you need decoys the duck hunt? What's your opinion on that? I mean, for for myself, yes, but you know, technically in most ants, as long as you've got an area that the ducks are, you know, coming to, you're not necessarily trying to attract them, maybe a small body of water or something like that. No, you do not technically have to have them. Um, you can also jump shoot

them legally if you would like. That's not necessarily the preferred way to do it. So, I mean, the the most like legal answer the question is no, you absolutely do not have to have them. But for myself, my preferred method of hunting is indeed over decoys. Yeah, and and so, like I said, very inexperience went on a duck hunt last year. You know, we hunted from boat. One time. We had more you know, duck decoys than

we needed. The entire boat was full. We wrote on you know, duck decoys out out there, and so you know, one day we set you know, eight dozen decoys. The other day we hiked into a spot. You know, you carry half a dozen decoys and maybe a jerk rig with you. Um, you know in Washington, you know, electric rigs are illegal. So we're we're you know, we're creating movement with jerk riggs or or does do you do

you feel what matters do? Do they become more comfortable when they see a spread of you know, five dozen ducks, you know, ten dozen ducks or just a small group? Have you noticed much difference? You know with I'm thinking from a perspective of a new duck hunter. You know, maybe you only want to buy six twelve see if you even like it? Like, are you gonna notice a huge difference on you know? I think it honestly depends a lot about a lot about where where you're hunting,

in the situation that you're in as well. Again, like my spread almost always is adjusted depending upon where I'm hunting. If I have more of an open water kind of scenario, I typically go with a you know, with a bigger spread, I've got more room. If I'm in a small spread. I mean about eighteen is the most that I would you know, take, And again it is kind of predicated on hey, how many trips you want to make, whether you're carrying them, whether you do have a boat, a cart,

anything along those lines. So I don't think there really is necessarily a magic number, um, you know, but I can tell you the idea of I'll get more ducks if I just have more decoys is definitely a fallacy. Yeah. And and like I said, I'm coming from a very elementary point of view here, and so I'm just observing when I'm seeing it seemed like the number one thing. And we'll probably get into that here in a little bit. Is like just being on the location was more important

than than you know, how many ducks. And we we had seen that this corner was loaded up with ducks the day before we go sit on it, and of course the ducks just want to be there anyway, So

it made made our lives easier. And I'm gonna expand a little bit on this question, um, which kind of surprised me, is is like the jerk riggs and the movement on on some of these decoys as we're sitting there you know, ducks are approaching from above, They've got great eyesight, and all of a sudden, you know, I need to be moving my arm and pulling this thing,

you know, three ft each way. Um is that typical? Like, well, these ducks, as long as they're focused on movement on the water, let you away with some of the extra movement. Like to me, is a big game hunter. Like the last thing I want to do is something approaches is

like start waving my arm around. Um, you know, no, regardless how well I think I'm covered up front, like they're above me, like I assume they could see me, you know, correct, I mean we we always have that, you know that that mantra whatever you want to try to minimize movement in the blind but maximize movement on the water. And so you know, we're we're very much so in tune as far as trying to make sure

that we've got a correct hide. You know, you want to have stuff of covering over the top of you. And you know, in some ways ducks are the easier is not the correct word as far as that goes, but your your movements and the attraction level that you're at, your kind of way more separated from them, and so you can get away with a little bit more than

you can in like a big game scenario. But we certainly do our best to try to make sure that we are covered up, faces are down, nothing bright and glaring, and yeah, you know, you try to minimize as little movement as you possibly can. Yeah, and we're gonna try to focus this on duck. But I know I got to hunt with you know, the the co owner Pacific calls your partner there, Trevor Um geese hunting and like it. You know, we've got to be so still inside this

blind like not no face showing. But yet when the geese are coming into the field, somebody's allowed to jump out with this big white flag and like wave it around. I'm like, all right, I'm confused. I don't know what you're allowed to do. I don't know what what what's good,

what's bad? But it just you know, is is me trying to wrap my head or I don't have to have to laugh about like what you can get away with yet what you can't get away with, um is these water fowler approach and so um this when you're you're going to run into that, Yeah, this one will tie right into um, you know, the event that was last weekend, the World Duck Calling Championships, and then kind of what we do on the duck calling side. How good of a duck caller do you need to be

to be effective? Is there is a there a threshold you need to be at least as good to kill any ducks? You know, if you're better, you'll call it more like in your opinion. Um, you know a lot of these guys get to you know, everybody you get to listen to on social media. You know typically is a good duck color, maybe way a better you know, way better than average. And so I think a lot of these people that are you know, sometimes timid or don't even want to blow on a duck call when

they get out there. But you know how good you have to be to be effective in it for for it to work? I mean realistically, not you know, not incredibly. The entire idea of the call is to get their attention, to add a little bit level of realism into the hunt.

And so if you are in a situation where you know it's a quiet body of water or something along those lines, one of the more effective calls that you can have in your ourson, believe it or not, is actually a little whistle, you know, just doing a drake whistle or a teal whistle or a widgeon or something along those lines. And that's that takes very very little

skill level to operate. And I'm glad you mentioned something like worlds because if anybody paid attention to worlds, that is not a competition in which you're you know, attempting to actually you know, call ducks like you'd hunt them. That is, that is an operator contest to prove that you can you know, run a call from the absolute highest echelon, that it can be ran at all the way down to the lowest. So there's you know a

little bit of a caveat with that. But as far as in the field goes, I would say the effective side of it, or the level that you need to be at is um If you can make realistic, simple noises, the duck calls going to benefit your hunt as opposed to not benefit the hunt. And you know, being in the water fall sphere with a lot of guys going to trade shows doing that, the worst thing that someone does is they try to, you know, run before they

can walk. A basic quack a simple chatter, um, you know, and like maybe a three or five note sequence is really all that you you know, technically need in order to you know, get results or help produce results if you're trying to you know, do twenty note highballs and machine gun feeds and all this other stuff. That's like that's just not that effective in the field to begin with, and not to mention you don't have the skill level to pull it off. It's just you know, it's it's

a lose lose. You're you're doing more harm than good at the point where you're trying to make all these sounds. But yeah, it's not effective or not natural. Um that

that makes a ton of sounds. We see that. We see it on the all the competition stage, you know, on ELK as well, Like we make a bunch of you know, sounds up there that it's like I never make in the woods when I'm trying to call a bowl in or you know, it's just it's no for the for the stage only is to prove that you're able to you know run a call in its you know, high capacity or you know, just just do things that

other people just can't simply do. So it's you know, it's the duck calling has kind of that same that same aspect. Yeah. Well, well I've got a bunch of other questions on duck calls. What will save those um towards the end. But that's gonna wrap it up for the for the Q and A section. Once again, if you have any questions of your own, please email us at ct D at Phelps Game Calls and will make sure to get your question up and get answered either

by myself or our guests. Now we're gonna jump into some of the duck hunting and duck hunting or duck call questions that I have, UM, so I would consider myself here. I have got to go out in the field, you know, four or five times and got to see from you know, people that know what they're doing, um, kind of what they've got. But I want to break this down on what what are the absolutes, like what does a New waterfell hunter need um to go chase ducks versus what are you know, maybe what would be

nice or preferred? And then kind of what are the luxuries? I guess, um, you know, me on the outside three years ago, never never picking up you know, a shotgun to go chase ducks. It's like, well, well my moss grow Gate thirty five work? Or do I need to have a new Benelli you know, super black Eagle whatever that is now two or three or whatever, you know, And there was a little bit of like is there a difference? And so like walk us through that. What

what you need? What's nice to have? And then what's a real luxury? Sure well, I mean, you know, if you're if you're gonna do it on a on a super super basic level, there's you know, you you have to have a shotgun. Um you know, get get gear was something warm kind of like big game hunting. You want you know, you want to dress for you know, the appropriate stuff as far as like it doesn't matter

what the gear is. Absolutely know. My first shotgun was an old you know, Remington eight seventy from Walmart, and then I thought that I needed, you know, a big Bonelli after that and anything else. It turns out that whether you shoot with the you know, the the cheap pump or the melly, you gotta hit the bird regardless

to you know, make things happen. I will admit that as you get into nicer things, there's some performance factor stuff that they you know, tout or you know, tell you that you you need and it can help, um, but most of it all relies on just your individual skill set and so focusing on your ability to you know, track bird shoot things like that, it's gonna be way more important than the than the gun that's on your shoulder, okay, and then other than that, gear wise, I mean, like

you know, for for myself, uh, starting out, you know, I was definitely a you know, a public rat race kind of hunter. I had you know, a dozen hot buys, uh, set of Cabella's waiters and my snowboarding jacket with my you know, with my eight seventy and you can you can still get it done. I mean, like it's it is. It is a very gear heavy side of the sport because we're the guys that run around and you know the designer fast and wear Sitka gear and you know all the other stuff. And like if I have opt

to fade on, it means I kill more birds. And it's like it definitely is not that way. Um. You know, it's very comfortable. It's nice to have, but it's not it's not needed. You can still get it done with the same you know, army green wool pants that the grandpa had on. Yeah. And then, UM, one of the things as a new waterfall hunter that really, um was overwhelming for me was like duck identification, because you look like,

all right, you're in the Pacific fly Away. I can shoot one pintail, I can shoot you know two, I don't remember what you know, you go through. Uh, you know, whether it's Widgeon or God, God will and these they all have limits and and this or that. Um, what would be a good resource? Um? You know, because I

had somebody else calling the shots for me. Towards the end of the first day, I got to you know, be able to identify pintails and you know Widgeon and Teal were you know, I would see him and then I wouldn't, and then I be oh, that was a Teal. You know, I started to figure things out, you know, but UM, like duck identification, a sun in your eyes?

What's a good resource? And how does somebody gain confidence, um, you know in identifying ducts so that you don't you don't have that fear or worry of going out there and you know, you know, shoot the wrong limit. And I mean you know, do you take a fair amount of people out and you're doing the same thing. And I can't stress enough that you know, even as a new waterfowl hunter, um, you know, doing your research as far as you know what the what your local state

provides you with regulations. Most of the time they do have, you know, pictures and things like that, but Google, um, you know, any type of Internet source to try to find and be better at identifying birds is is huge. The other side of it is time in the field. There's a patience factor that it takes to learn how to identify birds and do things. And if you don't know what it is, you shouldn't be shooting it regardless.

So even if you are missing your limit opportunity to literally have a bird come in and say I think that's a pintail and then let it go by and go, yep, that was a pintail, that's a better a better approach to what you're doing instead of just shoot it and I thought it was a pintail and it turns out it was. And so you know, for for myself and even when we're taking other people there, we don't have the answers all the time. But if you can you know, kind of learn to get that patience factor in it.

More than likely that bird is gonna come by again and you'll get another crack at it. But until you can positively identify what that bird is. Um. You know. My my recommendation to a new guys to just be patient. You're gonna be able to figure it out over and over and over again as you see them over and over and over again. But don't don't jump the gun and shoot something that you shouldn't. Yeah. Um, and then

there's a new waterfall hunter. One of the things I'm this is fresh my mind because all the stuff doesn't make sense to me, is like, all right, you gotta get a migratory bird on your license, and then you got to buy a duck stamp. And I'm like, all right, you can't get a duck stamp if you want to

go hunting, you know, this weekend. And so like, there are some states like I think I'm able to jump, like on Wyoming since already had like a big game license, I was able to get like an E stamp, you know, through the state of Wyoming, because I don't believe I could get one from Washington that quickly. Um, so no, what I mean, like it kind of depends on so of the hierarchies there and so like for instance, in Washington State, which is where I'm a resident of, I

am required to purchase my small game license. I'm report required to purchase my migratory bird. Um. I believe they call it endorsement. I don't know if that terms correct there for Washington State. And then at the federal level,

I have my duck stamp. So if I have one duck stamp that I bought for Washington State, that federal duck stamp is good for all of the states there, and then the each individual states whether I go to Missouri or you know, any of the other places that we travel to quite often, I may have to buy a migratory validation for that individual state. But at the federal level, by having the duck stamp, I've met that requirement. Gotcha.

That makes that makes more sense. And like I said, I was just you know, my my duck hunts are usually somebody calls me on Thursday night like do you want to go on Saturday? And I'm like, well, I can't, you know, so then you're scrambling an East stamp. But but it works out and you can get you can get the East stamps, get them there, you know, print them out. What they're really after is did you you know, did you put into the you know, the federal fund,

whether or not you have the stamp there. It goes back and forth some I think Now, if I'm not not mistaken, you don't even have to deface them anymore. They don't require you to sign them and you know have them, Um, you can just put it on your license or do whatever. But yep, that the that federal stamp. Man I've I've done on a few different times where it's like, oh crap, can you go to the post

office and go find me those? Because they're out at Sportsman's and so you know we've been running around all over hell trying to find them. Gotcha. So uh we touched on a little bit in the Q and A. UM, but in my limited experience, you know, you're the blind locations are being on the X and you know, and this is public land. You know a lot of people probably get to go out to their private pawn, private lake, private edge, um, and they just know where they need

to be. But you know, my my first entry to Duck hunting was you know, potholes there in Moses Lake, UM, you know last year, and you know it's public water. UM, everything's wide open. Any and so we spent the first day scouting UM. And as I mentioned earlier, UM, you know your blind location or being on the x UM maybe seems at least to me, seems to be more important than anything. UM. Can you confirm that? And you had mentioned it earlier? But what goes into finding? You know,

what do what do the ducks want? You know, how does the wind affect that location? What are you looking for? Because like some of the stuff like I, oh, a bird can't smell what's the wind? Matter? But I realized really quickly, like when you know in a certain direction mattered? UM, kind of go through all that. What's the ideal blind set up cover? Um? And then we'll go what factors go into picking that spot? Sure? Well, I mean you you did hit the nail on the head. Location is

you know, absolutely the number one deal. I can go to my parking lot and set up all my decoys and call all I want, but I'm still not going to get a bird there. And so like, yeah, you have to make sure that you're in an area that does have you know, it does have birds in it, and so the scouting is absolutely huge. We spend more time scouting than we do hunting. We'll check a field to three four days in advance of a hunt. If

we find something, we'll usually watch it build for a day. Um. You know, we spend more time looking through the binos than we do actually out in the field. Pull the trigger now it A lot of our stuff is indeed, you know, field hun thing. Um you know, you're you're patterning birds and doing things a little different. Whereas like potholes are you know, a public waterway, it's more about whether or not there's just birds in the general area.

And then you have to try to find a way to um, you know, meet the meet the criteria that you want and so um to answer to the other side of the question blind location, things like that. A lot of the times in a public hunting scenario, you're just kind of stuck with what you're given. And so even if the wind is not perfect, the sun is not perfect, you've got to try to find a way

to make it work for you. UM. For myself, I always try to make sure that the wind is coming, you know, over my back, um, and that way the birds are forced more to land with the wind and coming into me for an easier, easier shot. And that's really where the wind direction comes in for big game. I know you want the wind kind of going the other way, so the animal doesn't you know, smell you or like take off of you. Like you said, I don't think the birds can smell me. I think there's

research on whether they can smell or not. But you know, for for me, I'm more worried about if the wind's going this way, the bird is more likely to follow this fly path, and so I'll try to set up my blind to shoot a certain way based on the wind, and then also set my decoys and spread based upon that wind. And then you know, as the hunt progresses, you you may have to adjust that and to get

them to all to line up perfectly. Where you got the sun at your back, the wind at your back, your decoys in the right spot, and birds in the area. Oh man, it's that you gotta count your buy a lot of ticket that day. Yeah, and you you alluded to one thing which was kind of surprising. Um, we went over there and we spent the entire first day scouting.

I'm like, I just assumed duck hunters go sit on the water somewhere and you start quacking on a call and they're eventually gonna, you know, show up to you. So we we spent the morning lasting where the ducks wanted to be, Like where are we seeing the most amount of duck sitting on the water. UM. Gathered all that information and then we were hunting from a boat to get to these locations. Went around on the boat, and then we drove the boat. You know, we we used on X. We we knew what corner it was

on your potholes. It's kind of crazycause there's water everywhere and you don't know which turns which or what corners which corner. So we we all confirm and then we drive the boat out there, UM through that section of water, UM looking for where are we going to set up where? You know, do we have natural cover? Do we need to bring in and make a blind? Like where can

we park the boat? Um? All of this stuff starts the matter, and we we got to a spot where we figured we had enough uh you know, natural cover. We had a pretty a pretty good probably a thirty or forty ft rise across from us, so the birds that were flying on the water didn't see are set up until they were there, So it's kind of just

naturally they were gonna fly by there anyways. Um. And then we had pretty good open water behind us on the on the big water, so we could let our calls ring, and so you know, some of these things added up and it was you know, I think we had limited out by by midday, and so it was

a good hunt. But I started to notice like it was more about that spot because potholes, public land, lots of people hunting it, you know, near the holidays, and in my opinion, and maybe a you know, good callers or too many good callers, but you would just see birds flying over and the call didn't really seem to do anything. It was just there were because you would you could hear the guys, you know, the next blind over.

They would see the birds slightly after we did, and then they would start there they're they're calling sequence and then the guy's pass them would see and it was one of those things where it's like all right, in my opinion, and maybe maybe it's a skewed opinion based on on the situation we were given, But man, you just want to be where those ducks want to be and you know, blow on the call, get them to recognize your spread, and then that's really what matters, not

necessarily you know, how good you can call, how loud you can call, any of that stuff. Those birds were going to where they wanted to be. Anyways, Yeah, correct, I mean, and you know, it does depend on the situation and where you're at. I mean, obviously the battle is just being where you know, where the birds want to be. After that, now we're starting to get into

the subtleties. Are they responding to the call or they not do even need to call, or they just drop in right in Like it sort of depends where you're at. We also, you don't hunt situations where we call it running traffick, where you're you know, putting yourself in a flyway where they're they're flying over the top of you. You know, they're going somewhere else and you're just making as much noise and trying to be as crazy as possible.

Are gonna be like, oh wait, no, the party's over here, it's not over there, and then they you know, line line up and run you. So depending upon the situation that you're in. Sometimes the calling works, sometimes it doesn't. And yeah, in in a place like potholes, and those birds here, every person from every side of the state

blowing at them from every corner there. You know, I think my philosophy on potholes for a while was like, if I just leave my calls in the boat, I'm probably gonna be more successful because everybody else already call at them. Yeah, and on that one, not knowing like you know, whether we sit here all day or whether we move. We kept seeing all these birds hit water probably a half mile kind of back to us, to

the right, and then no gunshots. And we're like, we know that there's a million hunters on the water, there just must not be hunters on that and so we use that information. We went and took a half mile three quarters three quarters of a mile hike through the bridge USh and went and found where all these birds were landing. And then you know, adjusted are set up for the next day. Um, you know, just just to

be where those birds wanted to be. Um. You know, obviously you're getting bumped out of all the spots with all the blinds and everybody else hunting. Um, So yeah, it was just I think, you know, all hunting in general, whether it's a big game, whether it's predator, like just being a smart hunter and realizing, like, let's not force the issue on the on the spot or the exit we're hunting like they obviously want to be over there.

Let's let's move our set up the next day that evening, whatever it may be, um, and go to the ducks and not make the ducks come to us well, and I mean public duck hunting, that's always the mantra. You know, no matter what you do, you have to be able to pivot and be flexible and you know, move when something's not working, something's not going your way. You want to try to salvage the hunt as much as possible. So yeah, I mean, you know, make a switch, pull

the decoys, move something, go find a different spot. And you know also have the same wherewithal one you're gonna get up one day and go give it a shot and everything looks great, but it's just not your day. Yea, yep. Um, So we we were just hunting all day until we

hit limits. If you had to pick, you know, do you prefer a morning and evening or do you just are you on that same all day hunt until your limit or or do you just say I'm gonna hunt from eight to twelve, like is there a better time, um, you know in your mind to be out there on the water or you know on some in some places like Washington were somewhat spoiled where they don't have a lot of regulations as far as whether you can hunt the evening only hunt, the morning only hunt until a

certain time. There are other states where you can only be in refugees from X amount of time to you know, ten thirty to eleven to something like that. And there's some states that even regulate that. So you know, for us around here, if you're gonna take the day and go enjoy it, we typically find a way to spend most of the day. Um. But it does depend on you know, weather conditions, what what you know, what we're seeing,

you know, how how things are looking. Because you know, if I had a choice, I actually enjoy hunting the afternoons more than anything else. Almost the rat race of like everybody's racing each other to the boat ramp. The craziness is you know gone, and so you're able to kind of sneak in on the end and you know have maybe not as successful of a shoot, but it's a little more relaxed. You don't have to get up at you know, one am to get down to potholes

in time by three to be on the water. You set your decoys legally by four and then hold down your spot you know, all day. And it's like, man at an extra twelve hours to this just to to go duck hunting. I'd rather just wait till the afternoon, get their roll in and you know, be happy. So I'm definitely a I call it it like a fair weather you know side of side of duck hunting on

that one. But you know, my my most successful hunts that I can remember, they involved, you know, especially on public that that grind, sleeping in the truck at midnight, you know, getting on it and just you know going crazy. I'm just I'm getting old enough now where I appreciate sleep more than I do duck meat. So yeah, yeah, yeah, So that was a good segue in you'd mentioned I called yourself a fair weather duck hunter. Um, you know,

we we talked about time of day. Do you have a preference, you know, do you We saw at least on potholes, like a little bit of wind was good, you know, still seem to be. They didn't like to fly as much one that when it got still there in the potholes. Do you have a preference? Do you want to rainy, nasty raining sideways? Do you want to you know, clear and you know high pressure? Like, what's

what's the kind of it? For me? When the most successful times that the Yeah, the most successful times that I've had, you know, out hunting are the ones that I remember is the best? Weren't the ones where I was you know, soaking freaking wet by eight am and it was just miserable, And yeah, sure it's you know, everybody's got this like Norman Rockwell idea of you know, quintessential duck hunting where it's just pissing cats and dogs and the ladies looking over at the guy like what

the hell are we doing out here? Um? You know, for me, clear and cold is has always been, you know, a better, a better way for me to hunt. I I like hunting on um. You know, some people like blue bird days so to speak, but like when the sun's out, bird identification is a hell of a lot easier for myself in my own opinion, I think the sun helps create some shadows that can also help hide me better, especially if I have the sun in the

correct location. It can also like show my face and everything a lot better if it's not in the right spot. So it is, you know, a bit of a catch twenty two. But for myself personally, my favorite way to hunt is absolutely you know, Christine, clear and cold, and I do like at least maybe like a five to seven mile an hour sustained wind just so there's a little bit of ripple on the water and it gives you know, the spread some direction. It just kind of

helps set a little bit of an edge on the hunt. Yeah, and you know my location, I'm a I'm thirty minutes away from the Pacific Ocean harbors, you know, Gray's Harbor, Willipa Harbor, And I think that's one of the biggest, like one of the reasons I absolutely never wanted to go, Honey.

I got asked all the way from high school and you want to go you know, combined goose duck hunt, and I'm like no. And the reason why is they wouldn't go unless the wind was bowing forty mile an hour and the rain was hit in the side of the face. That made the good good waterfall. You know, hunting weather around here, and that sounds like zero fund to go up, you know, go set up your decoys, go set everything up in the dark, sit there and

get soaked and freeze that. You know, So I I'd always looked at that, but you know, we went, we went over to the east side and you know, similar to your mentioning, you know, blue bird days with a little bit of wind, and it was pretty enjoyable. You stayed warm, and uh, I could get used to that a whole lot quicker than I could, you know, getting poured on out on the coast. Well, I mean, you know, don't get me wrong, I've been on I've been on hunts that are that same way, where it's it's just

miserable and you know, there's nothing flying. And you know, they were like, oh, if we only had some weather, you know, and you're like, you can you can point your finger at one way or another, you know what what worked, what didn't. And I mean there's been a couple of them that have been on, like in Kansas or some of the others where it's exactly the situation you're talking about I was in California one time and

not a joke. We it was when the Auraville damn was gonna was gonna flood and we were down there in the floodplain. It was raining. I think it rained two and a half inches in four hours. Like it was just absolutely nuts. But same thing, fifty five winds and I think we shot a hundred and forty five snows and specs in our group. But it was the most miserable day I've ever been out hunting. But man, we got some shooting in it was it was cool.

So I just I just didn't like literally ringing out my underwear before I got in the truck, like this is this is dumb. I might as well have gone staying. Yeah. Yeah, the duck hunting was great. That the enjoyment factor was was pretty low. It sounds like on on one of those yep, exactly. Now we're gonna kind of jump into the calls. Um, I'm gonna have you on the spot, give us kind of a five minute, quick and dirty version on the history of duck calls. You know, from

where they started kind of where we're at today. And some people might be surprised at the history of duck calls. Yeah, I mean, you know, in in all, honestly, a lot of most of the like duck calling. If you were looking up as far as when the first patent was filed, I believe it was in the late eighteen hundreds. But you know, duck calling as we know it now, really duck calls and duck calling so to speak, really did take off until you know, realistically right after the right

after the Second World War. I mean, you know, forty five you had Chick Majors and a couple of the other guys out there. Um, you know ps Olt, he's been around for a long time out of Peaking, Illinois.

I think they were a hundred year old duck call company. Um. I mean, it's it's been a you know, a rich history as far as the last hundred to a hundred and twenty five years or so really is where you know, duck calls and how they progressed have have pretty much been at um, you know, fortunately, and where we're at now.

Sure we've gotten some advances as far as things like materials you know, and stuff like that, but the technology itself as far as you know, whether it's a J frame or a real foot or a Louisiana style board. All of those terms and designs are still very much

so in play to day. And so you know, as far as what's the newest, latest and greatest thing in duck calls, you're you know, you're looking at guys that are just tweaking and perfecting and you know, changing the performance factor of designs, and you know, uh, and aspects that have been around now for you know, a hundred plus years got you and and we're gonna we'll touch

into what goes into designing a call. And one thing I want to kind of preface this and you can correct me if I'm wrong from a duck call standpoint, but but what we've realized is whether it's an external elk call, whether it's a deer call, whether it's a duck call, when you're using what typically is a piece of milar that's cut to a shape with a certain weight in order to get any of these sounds, it's it's basically vibration, oh, a piece of milar, whether it's

ten mill um, whether it's fourteen mill whether it's a short board, what you know, whatever it may be. You know, a goose call uses a fourteen mill short read. Um, all we're doing is asking this piece of milar to vibrate over a a certain radius, a specified radius. Whether you know a predator board is going to have a tighter you know, I'm gonna throw a number out there at two two and a half inch radius, and a deer call may have a sit you know, whatever it

may be, it's longer. Um, we're playing with the weights on the reads. But when we go to design these type of calls, UM, we're looking at radius. We're looking at my lar shape, thickness, We're looking at what the tone channel with and depth because that gives us a volume of air that can pass under that milar read. You're looking at your bars. So UM, kind of walk us through that. That's kind of a generality of all

calls that use a piece of vibrating milar. And it's crazy to think, you know, you take what are easy estrius or even all the way down to our our little young and calf call, we're taking a skinnier, thinner piece and changing its length so you get a very high frequency buzz, you know, all the way up to hurts. So you're able to get those elk tones and then you're able to really take a duck or even more.

I would say, you know, like a buck grunt, you're able to vibrate that read very very slow, and you're really hearing. The oscillation of that read is what's giving you know, it's not a high pitch, so you're able to do the extremes from a butt grunt all the way to an elk you know, calf mew um. Why we're on duck calls, kind of go go through and explain to us, you know how you know, there's a

little more to duck calls. We do look at it on the alt call side, but there's like, you know, volume in your barrel, whether you're gonna taper the barrel, whether you know, because that's going to affect how much the call loads up. You're gonna backboard the barrel, you know, affects your volume. So I've kind of spoiled it. I mean, yeah, I let's say, man, you answered a lot right off the right off to shoot. Good for you, but you've

been paying attention. No, there's a I mean the simplest way to put is pretty much in a duck call sphere or even a goose call sphere, everything affects everything, whether or not you have the answers to exactly how much you need to do to get what you're looking for. That's a you know, that's a different subject. And you know end user and how people blow things. I mean, that's that's really where it's at. But you know, to to try to put something to like spin it like

a basic I would understand it. I typically a tune, you know, anything to do with the duck call, very similar to like you know, a guitar. The looser that you make at sure, the you know, the sloppy or the vibration, the more buzz, the more everything that you get out of it. And it's the same thing you know with a duck call on the radius is that you're talking about. If you put too much slope on it,

it doesn't sound like a duck. The reed doesn't vibrate fast enough, and you've you know, built up a buck grunt or something else. And so you're you're trying to find, you know, a way to as you mentioned, take different ways of mile, are different lengths, different cuts, different wits and apply those within you know, dimensions that make sense

for the you know, the part that you're making. But yeah, man, I mean it's you know, it's it's it's infinite possibilities as far as whether or not you're using you know, a quarter inch tone channel, a six millimeter tone channel, whether you're you know, going all the way up to seventeen sixty fource, and like you can do so much different stuff within that sphere that you know, you might accidentally end up pushing like a J frame design into something of like a cutdown design or you know, like

it it just sort of moves as you know, as we do in you know, in the marketplace, and you're gonna start you know, pushing boundaries one way or the other. And that's how we you know, come up with different ideas to make calls operate. Yeah, and uh so I'm just gonna kind of throw some terminology out there. Um you know, I know what they mean a little bit,

not to the extent you do. But you know, when I was getting into you know, five years ago, and and you know, it's like, oh, you gotta have a duck call in your lineup, and it's like, uh okay, Like I understand, as I mentioned earlier, I understand like how miler vibrates. I can look at duck call inserts, you know, aside from you know, putting one of the popular like echo inserts in my first calls to you, I'm like, Alex, I gotta like help me understand this,

like help me understand the process, um, you know. And so we started to walk walk through, you know, and so it was like, oh, well, open water versus timber, double versus single. Um, I think some of these and correct me if I'm wrong. Some of these names have been put on a call just because of maybe the way it leans a little bit like oh, it's a louder call, like it's more of an open water call

versus like, oh it's a quieter call. It's gonna you know, it gets labeled a timber or you know, um kind of explain you know, singles versus doubles, open versus timber, and then we'll kind of jump into some other questions

based off of that. Sure well, I mean, you know, like very much so in in the duck call sphere, it's like anything else, right, Like if you just go to lows and say screw driver, like there's endless possibilities, and duck calls definitely fall into you know, that same way and so you've got you know, a little bit of situational kind of stuff that you want to do with duck call and try to match that with what that company's you know, marketing as far as like, oh, yes,

it's an open water call. Well, if you were to compare my open water call to say Echoes or somebody else's, you could probably find some dissimilarities and some also similarities between the two. But the you know, the common nomenclature on something like if you were to say an open water call typically means that it's got a much more open backboard in it, so you can push more air through it and create more volume, whereas something in a timber style is usually choked down a little bit so

it's not as loud um, you know. And that's that's really where it comes into the situations that you're hunting and what tool do you need to do the job? You know, where you're where you're at, Because if you're on the Columbia River and you're trying to was like, for instance, you know, the hive in my lineup is my softest running double read. Well, if you're in a wide open, you know area and you you're trying to

produce volume. That's not the call that you want to use as far as you know, doing what you want. So you know, making sure that you have the right call for the right job, you know, is pretty important. And you know, I can tell you as a manufacturer doing this, a lot of calls do gravitate towards the middle because we want to try to find something that is a user friendly and be very you know, versatile. I know we talked about it, but like these things

aren't necessarily just cheap. You're not gonna go out and spend you know, only five dollars and get what you want. Most waterfowl calls or upwards of a hundred and twenty to a you know, a hundred and forty dollars at a whack, And so you want to try to find a way to get the most bang for your buck, which typically means you're finding something that operates right down

the center. So you avoid things like a wide open water calls or like way to timber re calls unless if you know, you need that tool for that job. Got you. Um, so it was a new caller going in, what would be a recommendation. I know everybody's you know, I told people the same thing on the olt call side, like, well, just because you're a new color doesn't mean you don't blow. Like you know, you've been doing this for thirty years.

You might blow with a ton of air and a ton of effort versus So new color is not always the right thing. But what would you recommend a new caller, Like, if they're looking at a call, are they looking at a double read open water because it's got a are are what would you recommend as far as like new color, getting into um duck calling so they can gain confidence

and you know, make duck sounds to get going. You know, in in most cases, you know, picking up something that is you know, advertised from that manufacturer, as they're all around duck call is typically typically a better a better solution for you know, a beginning duck hunter. Um. You know, I can only speak to you know, kind of what's in my lineup and you know how how we do

things around here. Whereas like you know, materials, price, things like that shouldn't necessarily be a big factor, you know in your decision. I mean everybody's got you know, a budget as far as that goes, and I produce you know, polycarb calls that are twenty dollars all the way up to you know, fancy wooden acrylic ones that are you know, upwards of two more. And so you know, whatever you're comfortable within your budget getting is really you know the

answer of you know what called should you get? Um? But in most cases you're gonna find, you know, at a a good running single or double read, whichever one you know personal preference. And we'll get into that a little bit on why you choose one or the other, but um, which one's gonna fitch you? What materials that you like because those materials are gonna you know, cost you less more. Um, you know, whichever way you want

to go about it. Yeah, and um new color versus experience you know you had five years ago we had came out with a single and a double read, you know, through through you guys training me and me practicing and figuring out you like, the single reads typically wider and you know, less of a dog ear versus your double reads are typically a little skinnier and they've got more

of a taper on the end. You know, you're we're dealing with just trying to get weight off the end to get him to tune in um to a duck? Is Is it just my own opinion that like experienced colors and they don't have to lean into it, but like your single reads are typically geared towards your more experienced colors are people that have more time with it. There's a little more effort, a little more air um required.

Um Is that does that always hold true, that your double reads will be a little bit more user friendly and your single reads maybe more experience. Is that just how the ultimate design kind of comes out. A lot of it does come down to ultimate design, But there is something to be said, you know, like and when you're when you're talking about, you know, whether it's easy to use or not. I think there's a little bit

of a misunderstanding. It's not like if I don't know how to present air, if I don't know how to control my diaphragm, if I have crappy hands, that I'm gonna pick up a double read and all of a sudden, I'm just gonna sound like a duck because it's a double read. You still very much so have to focus on your fundamentals, you know, making sure you're making proper notes, you know, proper mouth mechanics, hand mechanics. All of that still is an effect whether it's a single reader double read.

The forgiveness factor in how you know, a new collar may not be able to pressurize and stabilize their air the same way that an experienced color would. So out of a single read, that one read is going to fly X, bend and make those different notes, whereas a double read it kind of hides it a little bit. And so the forgiveness factor and a double read is typically withdraws a new hunter to the double read side

instead of the single read side. Got you, we're you guys are helping us work on a new single read that I've been practicing on. I've got it sitting here on my desk, and you know it's it's what I was sounding good, but you're sounding good. It would be like a wide open call. In my opinion, this is my own terminology, Like I can, I can hammer on

that thing. It sounds like a duck. I can. It stays there, and I went and grab one of the double reads that you one of the original double reads, and I went to blow on it kind of with the same idea. You know, the same pressure and everything and it just fell on its face. I'm like, all right, you had to retrain yourself like this double read takes

about half the air to sound, you know. And uh yeah, it was just one of those things where it's like, well you you're so used to that one that it takes you a couple um you know quacks to kind of figure out where you need to be and how much air and and get it to sound like a duck again. Um, so onto that's just you know him and that that's practice. Yeah, yeah, you had mentioned a little bit on tuning. We were talking, you know, dog ears,

we were talking shortened reads. Um, you know, I had a customer call the other day like, hey, we bought two of your calls. One of them sounds awesome, one of them is missing a little bit, and I just asked them to take pictures of the reads, and you can tell that one read was quite a bit shorter. So we had them pull the cork out readjusted give himself a little bit longer read so that he could push on the call a little bit more and we we got it turned right around. But can you walk

us through kind of duck tuning one on one? Just the quick and dirty, What matters? What doesn't I know it? Probably you know it's a little bit different on each tone board, each board, but kind of the overall what matters and what changes for me to read? You know, the basic concept behind you know, tuning a duck call is that you're trying to get it to fit with how you know, your style of your style of calling is.

And so the simple I guess way of looking at it is typically the longer the read, the more air it's going to take, and the deeper tone it's going to have. So as you put in a fresh read, you're gonna start clipping it back and you need to find that happy meeting between the response and the field

that you want and the tone that you want. And so it is a very tedious process and it's something that most people get frustrated with because they expect to just you know, throw a read in and it sounds like a duck right away, and it's like now, there's

very much so, you know, a finite tuning level. And even in my my own lineup and when we're dealing with you know, customers and trying to make sure that calls fit them and you know, things along those lines, It is very much so a a fit discussion because how how much air I can produce versus how much air you can produce versus you know Trevor or you know Joshmo customer, It's it's all different, and so you have to find a way, you know, to make that

thing fit you. And typically, like I said, the longer the read, the deeper the tone, but the more air it's going to take. And so if you feel that you're blowing through the call or like it doesn't have enough back when you technically need a longer read because from a field standpoint, the read is too short. Now from a tone standpoint, if you're trying to change something, you know, and that's where some the dog ear stuff

comes in. And the thinner you make that read on the end, the more it will respond in low pressure, but it still has enough backbone with it to hit it higher. So it is very much so a guess and check kind of mentality. And the best part about a duck call is my lars cheap. So by all means, you know, get a read pack from you, from me, from anybody, and just start going nuts because there is no perfect answer. But I think I was telling you

the same thing. When you're tuning a duck call, you know less is more, And so with how much you clip and change, you're really after like the width of a sheet of paper as far as adjustments go, and like clip, put it back together, give it a test, run it a little bit, and I don't like how that feels, pull it apart, clip, do it again, and just over and over and over until you get it

to exactly where you like it. Yeah, And and my limited experience, one of the things I noticed more with duck calls versus any of my other calls, whether it's Elker predator, is the balance of how much error the call could take or needs or can't take, versus still sound like a duck. And there seems to be like this a crossover point where all right, now the call I can put as much air to it as I want,

but I no longer sound like a duck. So it's like, all right, maybe that's a we thing, or maybe that's a link thing, or maybe that's take dog ears out because you need the right weight. And so I found that, you know, duck calls more than any other call is like that balance of air pressure versus you know, maintaining your correct tone that you want out of the call. Yep, Well, I mean there there's a variance factor in duck calls you know as well, that's not necessarily there with you know, ELK,

Deer some of the other ones. You know, ducks have a very wide spectrum as far as the sounds, tones, volumes, things that they're able to produce him in a natural environment. And I know there's some variants in ELK as well, but in the call itself, you have a lot more freedom on a duck call to change the reads and do things than you do on let's say, an ELK call, because I mean the width of an ELK read effects function way more than it does in a duck call.

And so you know, there's there You've got more room to play, you know, in a duck call than you do with you know, ELK or anything else. So by all means, if you've got a call that's not performing right or do anything, swap out the reads and try some different tuning and see if you can make it fit how you how you think it should. Okay, yeah, that's great advice. Um, I'm gonna dive into materials a little bit. Um, you know, we mentioned earlier the history

of them. I think one of the things that we've found is time went on, we're using better materials, whether that's acrylic, um, you know, whether we're using you know, high end composites like you know the my cards, um, you know, some of the engineered materials. Um. What do you feel that a duck can tell the difference between

like a polycarbonate or an acrylic call? Or is it the fact that that call can be handed down for three generations and still probably be fine where you know, the polycarbonate could be squished or give me, give me your rundown on materials and if they matter, um, you know. For for for myself, my my all time favorite favorite kind of call to use is actually a would call.

I do believe that, like from a natural tone and sound standpoint, like woods are some of the better calls, but they do have a have a maintenance factor and it's it's very difficult a lot of people to maintain a would call for years and years and years. So from a manufacturing standpoint, an industry standard is acrylic and there's a vanity side of that that goes with it as well, because you can get acrylic in every color

of the rainbow. It can be laser engraved, like you can make these things look really cool, you know, out of the out of the acrylic factor. The crylic is actually you know, incredibly dense as well, and so it does a good job of not um not altering the

sound that comes out of it. If you're using acrylic call, you're typically very crisp, very clean um, and whatever you're putting into the call is transferred out in the sound that's there, whereas like would del rin some of these softer compounds, they absorb you know a little bit of that sound and vibration, so it alters, you know, it

alters your tone. Um polycarbonate things like that. It's you know, it's regarded as a cheap product that actually does make a very solid product as far as function in things, but you know it's it's cheap plastic. It's you know, mass producing, injection molded and you know, talking down on it. But I have my own molds and everything else myself. But it's you know, it's just that it either fits

or you don't. And you know, for myself, if I don't have a would call and typically leaning to acrylic and if acrylic is not an option, then del ryn is my next. And then you know, POLYCRB is typically on the end of the spectrum for for myself personally. But I mean I know a lot of guys that still kill a lot of ducks with a d R a D five man and like they you know, works

just fine. Yeah, um got you. And one thing I like about materials um acrylic or you know, some of the the engineered materials is I don't get a call from alex on like a Tuesday, but like we have a problem. That batch of O sage that we got is no good. It's you know, you know, so it's that's what I love about them. But it's it's pretty consistent, um, you know, as it's it's cast rod um, you know. And so that's one thing I do like about material

you know, uh, an engineered material. But like you said, I love you know a lot of our turkey calls. We can't get around would um. But yeah, it is it is nice to have something consistent, especially you know, well when you see all the processes that these call has got to go through. You know, the barrel goes through the lay, then it goes through polish and then you know, the the inswer of the kid goes through the mill. It's like if something pops on the last stage,

Like it's just frustrating. It's like you went through the entire process of building a call and then we lost it at you know, and and the milling and stuff, you know, has a higher likelihood of doing that. And so I don't know from my from a manufacturer standpoint, like sometimes I feel like it's hitting an easy button, Like, yeah, it's gonna be a little more expensive, but it's going to be consistent and I know we're not gonna have issues with it, So let's go ahead and pick a

crylic um. Oh and then I'd have to agree with you on that one. I mean, it's you know, it's it's a it's a man made material. You don't have these these oddities that come out of it. And you know, like you mentioned, you're gonna get, you're gonna get would where sometimes it is just trash. There's a nod in it. You know, there's something that was not there. But there's also you know that that little bit of nostalgia nuanced factor, and like every single would call that comes off, they're

all different. Yes, they're all the same, but like every one of them is different, where like that's the same from start to finish. Man, there's nothing you're not gonna find this like, oh, this is a really cool piece in the middle of it. So you know, there's some of that in the surprise factor, like you just don't get from anything else. But you are a dcent correct on the manufacturing side of life, and you know, the the consistent results in every single call over and over

and over and repeatability factor. I mean, you know, acrylic is pretty much pretty much where it's at, and that's why it is indeed the industry standard, especially and you know and waterfowl calls. Gotcha, Um, Okay, this is a I could have googled this, but I'm gonna put myself out there and at what is the difference between I cut down versus a meat call? And explain that to me, because you hear it said all the time, but I

want to hear your I want to hear your your explanation. Well, I mean, you know, for me, I don't know if the if the two things that you're talking about they are actually on the same deal. A cut down is a is a style of call that you know originated from an old old and old ps old and then uh,

meat calls so to speak. I guess I think that's actually like a term as far as like a contest goes, Like you have like a main street calling on tests, you have a meat calling contest or a live calling contest, and so the two aren't necessarily one and the same or can be compared, like what one's the style of a call and ones are you know, different calling contests as far as that goes, At least that's how I'm

I'm reading that question. So yeah, it was more of I've heard these calls referred to cut down calls or meat calls. Um, so maybe it wasn't. It was phrase the wrong way, But just what the definition because it's like unless I go google it, like I don't know what that means. Well, I mean, you know, a cutdown is indeed, just like if you had to put a very simple, simple way of thinking about it, it's it's

like an ultra aggressive style of a J frame. It's got a wide open bore, typically a fourteen mill read and it's designed to you know, really produce harsh, barky sounds down in the Arkansas timber, whereas you know, something that's more like my J frame style calls. They're a little bit softer, neater. They run, you know, a kind of a higher frequency level like you were talking about with some of the some of the elk stuff. So like the cutdown is kind of a style of a call.

It's not necessarily a type of calling. I guess that's the way to put it. Well, thanks for running us with those calls. In closing, if you had one tip to help, um, you know, duck hunters out there be successful this year, what would it be? Oh man, just you know, try to stay positive because it's it is definitely one of those things you can get spoiled really quick by showing up on a hunt and you know, shoot your seven and be like this is the greatest

thing in the world. But you know you're gonna you're gonna have days where you're gonna sit out there and I wonder, why the why the hell you did this? But um, you know, it's it's a long game. Um. The seasons, you know, really long for waterfowl compared to a lot of big game stuff, and so there's there's tons of opportunity and uh, you know, get out, try to enjoy it. It's it's it's a lot of fun and uh and it should stay that way. So, you know, like I said, try to stay positive and have fun

doing it. Yeah, that's great advice and uh, I really appreciate having you on today, Alex. Thanks for all your time, Thanks for uh, you know everything, and good luck out there this year. Absolutely. Man. Well hopefully, Hey we got it. We got a couple of months. You're done hunting the big game stuff, right, the stuff with first Come on, man, Scott, let's go let's go chase. All right, we might might have to do that, all right. Sounds like a point, but m