Ep. 24: Hunting Wolves with Tom Schneider

admire a lot, my buddy, Tom Schneider. Thanks for coming on today. Tom, Hey, thank you for having me. I'm excited. This is a topic I love talking about absolutely. Tom and his family are wildly successful with her UM Hunting YouTube channel where they feature elk hunts, deer hunts, moose hunts, cariboo hunts, bear hunts, and wolf hunts. Thomas quite a knack for calling animals of all kinds, including wolves. Thanks

for coming on the show. And I'm just uh, I just wanted to pick your brain on calling wolves today and uh, maybe a little bit of some tips and tactics and and uh and whatnot a calling wolves, um, Since you're one of the only guys that I that I hear about this like successfully um hunting and calling wolves in Idaho. Mm hmmm, being told that too, just like I'm consistently being told that I'm consistent. I guess you can say, um, every single year, I'm finding them

and still killing them. So perfect, perfect. You must have a kind of figured out, must have a good recipe. Can you give us a little background about where you're from? And I am how the wolves have kind of impacted the landscape where you're from. Yeah, so we live in a very timbered side of Idaho, on the more of the northern side, And you know, I grew up in an area where I think it's it's almost like one of those deals where you didn't realize how good you

had it until you lose it. And you know, we had really good out hunting, really good deer hunting, quality moose shy this species we have in our ears, the Shira's moose, um and more. Just not just hunting, but I've I've always been a big time shed hunter since I was a kid. We picked up sheds um in the spring. Um. We're doing a lot of trail camp scouting in the summer and then hunting in the fall, and that's one thing that I've done, you know, pretty

much most of my life. Thankfully, my dad got me get got got our whole family in the hunting, all my siblings and so we are very active in the outdoors, our entire family. And what we decided to do when we pretty much hit the age of graduating high school, UM, a lot of our Travis, my older brother, wanted to start a hunting company and he's like, man, we have some pretty neat experiences that we'd like to share with people, but we don't know anything about the filming side of things.

So UM a lot of trial and error and we eventually UM started figuring out how to film our own hunts. Showing people online. YouTube has been our best success out of anything we've we've had hunting. Um, we've had hunting videos on Sportsman Channel and other places, but anybody that's bumped into us and said hey, I'll stuck and right, I love your videos, we'd asked them where are you

watching our videos? And everything was directed to YouTube. So YouTube was our niche and it's really worked out for us. And so UM it's a passion that I love, my family loves, and we all enjoy it together. That's awesome. That's awesome. Let's chef gears here. Um, we've got some listening to questions people. Um, the guys, if you have questions that you want to be have read on Cutting the Distant podcast, go ahead and email them into us. I tell you the email, but since I'm sitting in

for Jason, I can't quite remember it. But if you're a long time listener, um, you should probably know that that email. But anyway, first question is I want to travel to Idaho to hunt wolves, but I don't have any idea where you begin to looking for wolves. So for somebody that's that's coming in from out of state, or maybe somebody that's just new to hunting and just doesn't have a clue where they should even begin looking for wolves, what what would you recommend? What would be

the first thing to do? The first thing I would do one that's a very good question. So there's not a lot of information out there and showing exactly the areas where wolves are at um. But the one thing I really would like to mention is most wilderness areas in Idaho have a high amount of wolves, So that is like a very good spot to start is those wilderness areas where it's you just don't have a lot of people getting out there and hunting the wolves out there,

you know what I mean. But for like actual information of like hey there's there's wolf packs here, there's wolf packs there, I highly recommend checking out F four WM dot org the Foundation for Wildlife Management UM. They're very up the date um where which units in Idaho have the most severe wolf populations and it changes every year because you know, they'll give a location and say, hey, this unit has a lot of wolves. So so a lot of people start focusing on that area. Then the

following year year that area is not so much. But then now this area has been neglected and so now this area is high with wolves. And so that's a very good organization to get involved with. And you don't have to show up to the meetings or the banquets to be involved. It's good to just be a member of it UM. And then you get the newsletters, you get updated for wolf hunting, you know, wolf hunting tips um.

And on top of that, if you are a member of that foundation, you can get reimbursed for your fuel expenses and another hunting expenses and you kill a wolf on the area that I live, it's up to a thousand bucks. I killed that white wolf recently. I gotta check from the foundation for a thousand bucks. So it's very helpful organization and for anyone who's trying to get into and get started, that is the place to really

look into. Um is that. But the one thing I do want to mention with wolves versus any other species of the animals. You can drop a pin in an area with good mule you're hunting, and people can hunt it and they're still just good mule. You're there, But you drop up a pin for where a wolf pack is and you have just a couple of guys go in,

the wolf pack will completely move out. And so UM, you have to be careful with that and following kins and find what people say where the wolves are, because where you where you're when you're you're pretty much at that point you're following people, you're not following wolves, and you're in your few steps behind. Now, if you could get a lead from somebody that um they have first intaels like, hey there's a wolf pack here, I haven't

told anybody else but you before. That's a great lead to get, but leads you have to really be careful with those because you can get a lead that you know, somebody told ten other wolf hunters and yeah, it ends up there's being an shll you know, just doesn't work out well, right, But yeah, hopefully that would be that would be the direction. I go, Yeah, that's that's great, that's good intel Um. Question number two, what is the

best time of year to hunt wolves? There's two years, two times a year that I really like, honey, Um, February. It's a really good time because just like the elk, the wolves, the wolves have a somewhat of a rut themselves, and so you have, um, you have males and females around the age of three breaking off from the pack and want to start their own start their own pack, and so they're on the move there, you know, meetings on their mind, and you can catch some wolves doing

some stupid things and and actually howling. This time of the year is a very good it's very effective with because you got wolves trying to find wolves, so how I work really were good. The other time of the year I really like is the earlier in the fall the better. And they're very vocal and it's not necessarily be adults, but it's the young, the young pups. Um, the younger pups are are now, I mean pups from

that spring are now full grown wolves. But they haven't had a lot of experience in the wild, and so they will hold out of the elk bagle, they'll hold out of kyle how there. You know, they're not the sharpest tool in the sheds yet, they haven't had a whole lot of experience. Um. So if you can get them howling, they're not just given the way their location. They're giving away the wolf packs location and so what you'll hear. And again this is about reading the pack.

You can tell if the alpha male is because you see, if if the alpha male feels like there's no danger, he'll let the how continue in the pack that they want the young ones to learn how to howl. But if he senses there's danger, where you're going to hear is a lot of yipping at first, like a lot of howling, and you're gonna hear a bunch of barking and in and yelping almost like if you've I think we've all been around dogs when a dog gets hurt

and hear you yelp. That's the alpha male biting the pubs, telling them to shut up pretty much. And so you'll hear this like it's also you hear this like Helle Frenzy, and all of a sudden you hear this here, it just goes quiet. And that happens a lot too, and you'll hear that. And when you hear that, he knows that, well, that alpha male knows something's up. And so he's he's he's not. I mean, it doesn't mean they're gonna leave,

but he's onto you a little bit. So um. But when a wolf pack gives their location to me is just game on. And the other reason why I like early fall is you have very specific for me to weather is very important to me in wolf Honey success Um snow in the February. Sorry, but I am backtracking here a little bit. Hopefully I'm not too scattered. No, no, you're good, Okay, so February back to February. You have tracks the snow. That's why I love with snow. Wolves

are lousy with leaving their sign behind. If there's wolves in the area'll know like an elk, you know, an elk or deer. There's been a very small spend area of very well, spend time in a very small area. A small timber pack or something. You could walk past them, I never know they're there. If you're close to a wolf pack within just a couple of miles, you're going to see wolf sign. Wolves travel so much ground. There's zigzag in. They're trying to jump, dear, trying to jump game.

They leave a lot of foot a lot of tracks behind. Um should you track a wolf pack? I've done it. It's only worked for me once. But you gotta imagine if a wolf, if the wolf packs on a mission, you're not going to catch up to him. I followed wolf packs on snowmobiles six hour old tracks and I've never caught up to him with the snowobile. Um. They just they know they can move, they can move. Um. So, now going back to August, why do what? What type of weather? Why do I like the weather in August

and September, even October. I actually have some good luck in October two. Um the heat. Heat really puts wolves in in very particular areas. Um. I think we're just most animals. Most animals don't like being in the heat. They find places the bed down during the day. Um, so it isolates wolves in some way. If you get a wolf pack, they're a little bit more isolated to stay in a spot during the daytime if it's nice, if it's really hot. They're not on the move, they're

not traveling across the country. They're gonna stay there and stay bedded and they'll talk. That's something. So the other question I usually get is what time of the day wolves will talk. I could. It can be a hundred degrees and at noon, and I can get the wolf pack county. It's incredible. Yeah, and so I can get them howling. But that's remember I talked about don't talk too much. You just the couple to do a Hell you get them talking, just shut up. It's like, okay,

you know where they're at, just try to make a plan. Um. Yeah, there's and there's a few areas that just seemed to be Um what I would call is rendezvous points where you just actually bump into these wolves every year in the same areas. You spend enough time hunting wolves, you all started to start realizing, Wow, although this this territory is huge, Like this wolf pack covers three square miles. For some weird reason, this one square acre. They just love it so much to spend more time in that

one square acre than anywhere else on that mountain. And and there's reasons for that, um for sure. That was one of our questions. In fact, what is a rendezvous site? Because you know a lot of wolf hunters, you know, use that term, But if you don't know anything about wolf hunding, what is a rendezvous site? So there's a couple of different So the rendezvous site is pretty much a spot where they come back to UM and that

could be for several different reasons. Um. Some reasons could be just the wolf pack is wolf pack is split up in their hunting, so there's a spot they'll all meet up during the day. There's also like a rendezvous point where um where they just meet each other. It's like a safe place like any time. It's like an

emergency and escape place, right. So like let's say we're at the you know, we all were in high school once and they said they'd have the fire alarm go off and we all go to a safe place right where we all group up in case of a fire, in case there's danger. There's a place at these wolves would consider as a safe place some Sometimes this is a dense site. They'll actually go in hang out on the same dance site, even though they don't have a

den anymore. They just found out that this place is so safe that they're willing to have pups there, So they're willing to go back. They're willing to go back and visit that spot. Um, I've seen this. This is where my success is happened in October. Where you know, some of these safe places, these rendezvous points are in the high elevation high mountains. Well, the majority of the game pulls down when you get the deep snow, but when you get the mule deer season, the rifle season,

that elk rifle season kick in. It's just all of a sudden, the wolves going to a big panic because they followed the game down to a lower elevation. All the gunshots start going off on on deer and elk. And usually after two days, I'll go back in that same rendevous point up in the high elevation and the wolf packle single foul back up there to get away from all the hunting pressure. I So yeah, and so, like I said, a roundey brew point can be several

different things. Um, some and even getting a little bit more in detail. But it can be a little bit more confusing. Is wolf packs do split up over time, you know, beings that they grow bigger, and you'll kind of have these wolf packs that are they're like together, but they're not. So you have like two different groups. Like We've had a pack that we were hunting and there was over a dozen wolves in that group. We

were able to kill three out of there. Um. But then they when the winner came, they they split up and they were hunting different sides of them out. But then there's a time where they're all eventually meet back up together again in the same roundee brew point um. But they but that pack kind of splits off together. I mean, you get the point. You get so many numbers that it's actually it actually becomes the opposite of being effective in hunting. Got too many wolves in the area.

It's just like you imagine when you have like a hunting group of six or seven people together and and you know you're actually doing more harm than good. You're not helping each other, you're just chasing animals away. So so they'll split up, they'll have they have places to meet back together again. Um. It's very fascinating to see those those rounde view points. How do you and I think the biggest question is how do you recognize a

round even point. You will see areas where you'll you know, there's the places that always keep track of a is the areas where you'll see multiple tracks. You're always going to see tracks on the move. You can you can follow a trailhead, you can follow a gated road. You'll find wolves wolf tracks in the road. That doesn't mean they're going to cross that spot again, they're just passing through,

they're making their routes. But then you'll hit this spot where it almost looks like you had a pack of wolves, not single file, but they're actually just playing there, just hanging out in an area, and it's almost like they've been hanging out there, not just for a day, but for a month. Right. And you see areas like that, drop a steak and pin and make sure to come back to that later because that is a spot they really enjoy hanging out. Um the spot that so where

I killed that white wolf recently. That pack knows me very well, by the way, that was really hard to kill him. I was on, I was I was on that packs tail from the entire month of August. But I had to hunt them way differently than any other wolf pack I've ever hunted. Like they were the wisest of the wise, like I've called them in before they knew my calls. I had to change things up quite a bit. But here's the thing. I'd like to say

it was six or seven years ago. There's just there's this little rock at the head end of the spasin and it's a random spot. There's this little rock, and one time my brother and I caught him beded on that rock and travel put a hole in a big female there. Um. Surprisingly enough, they love betting on that rock out of all the and it's a big like this pack. Their square miles is like their range is

so big, it's like four square miles. But just because it's a little bit more migratory, there's there's a big canyon, you know, when when the snow flies you pull down really far, you know, and so do the wolves. Um, So this their territory is a little bit bigger. I'd say that most wolves. So it's kind of hard to really kinpoint where they're at. But when they're in this particular area, when the sun rises. They're bedded on that rock. It is the it is the craziest thing that right

there is a randee brew point. That's really all meet up. Um. So hopefully that made sense, unless you want me to expound on that at all. Now that made perfect sense. That's awesome. Now you touched a little bit earlier on electronic colors, and that was that was our final questions. The question was, I've heard that wolves sometimes get wise electronic callers. In your opinion, is this true? So you

talked a little bit about the misuse of an electronic color. Um, are there any other you know, things that you would um talk about as far as to be careful with an electronic color? Um? Yes, So just again, put yourself in the scenario the wolf pack, especially if you're I mean, if you're back in the wilderness area and these wolves have never heard how, Um, they're gonna they're gonna light up when they hear of wolf how on an electronic call.

But if you do have an electronic call, remember, like wolves can pick up very unusual sounds, So if you have a little static or anything like that, it's game over. Um. The one thing I've noticed with the electronic calls to is not just the fact they'll remember. So so okay, let me back up a bit. So usually when I kill a wolf pack, when when I'm trying to call first, it's they'll come in pretty easy, right, I'll use a dying rabbit and they'll come running in and shoot them.

You will never be able to call that wolf pack him at that same dying rabbit call ever again. Never. But if you had to read, you can call that pack again. They remember that recording. Yeah. Um, same with the hell. If you use the how electron to call the first time, you might flul him once, but you're not going to feel a foom a second time. If they do how back at you, it's a warning. How Okay, it's almost like it's got the electronic has almost like

a sound wave signature that's very distinct or something. Yes, and so here's and then I'll bring up the example of the wolf pack I was recently hunting, the one where I killed that big white one recently. Um, so I get in there early August, I find the pack, I'm like, sweet, there where I want them? And I got up on the it's you know, it's brushing up here.

But you do the best you can. I got up on this ridge top and I did catch a glimpse of one of them down there, and it's just like I could tell they're bedded in there, and I was just like, oh, man, Like, I'm on the top of this ridge, I have a long range gun. This package just bedded right at the head of this canyon. I could shoot anything from here. Well, they never came out. Soon was going over there. I'm like, all right, I've called this wolf packing before. I've called a man with moose,

I've called a man with a fond stress. And I was like, I'll just try something different. So I used something different on the electronic call. And when I ran that call, they ran as fast as they could away from me as possible. They just ran complete out of the canyon. Now, and this is a call I never used on before. Is do they have other wolf funny pressure. No, it's a long, long, long, long long ways back there.

I mean it's it's at the point where, like if I was el Cunting, you're definitely need horses and mules. The reason the only reason why I'm not that far back on foot is because it's a wolf. I could just get it out and pack the hideout. But it's a long ways back. And so I was like, so it came to the point, at least on this pack, Rice stopped packing like trying to call, period, and it just only used mouth calls and the and the demeanor of the wolf pack was way different the way I

was running. I mean, they still weren't like they're still really hesitant to come in, but their demeanor was way different. They weren't running out of the canyon. You know, they still hang around. They'd held back. I can get close. Um. And then I did end up having a whoopsie. I would have had a wolf earlier, but it was my fault. I had a little whoops of Yeah. I'm sure you saw that post of my face all bleeding. Yeah, And that's that's the day I want. I want to forget.

But I think we just learned from our mistakes. So I actually just to explain the situation to everybody. So my brother, so we were getting ready for my brother in law's she hunt in southern Idaho, and and I'm still on this wolf cake. I'm trying to pattern this wolf pack, figure them out. The other thing I was doing.

I want to bring up to is I wasn't putting a lot of Like wolves, they sense people pressure really quick, and so I had it like I go in there and hunt, and then I have to back out for a couple of days, and you know, if I pushed too hard to would leave the canyon and so, but they really liked it in there. So I just I knew that if I just was patient of just backed out. Any time I felt like I was giving him too much pressure, I back out and then moved back in later.

Um So, anyways, my brother borrowed like that window. I didn't. It wasn't unting um. Travis was borrowing that particular a gun shooting thousand yard plates. I was like, hey, can I borrow it? I need that for wolf funds because I just got my long range gun and I headed it haven't dialed in yet, and so it was like, oh yeah, yeah, here you go. You can use the three PRC. So I'm like, sweet, I take it in there and I have a eye go in there and I'm using the um uh, I guess we'll talk about later.

But the prototype the wolf howler and I move around the corner and I have a wolf standing on a log at a hundreds at seventy six yards and I just dropped right to my belly and I was just like, man, like, the wolf is really calm. I can tell he's not running off. He's just standing on the log and I'm like, man, I gotta make this shot count, like I've been really hunting this pack hard. And I shoot and he just trots off like what moral And and as I I was scratching my head, I just felt my face just

got wet. I'm like, that's bad news. And I scored myself. So yeah, it was just a bloody mess. I'm like trying to see where the wolf's running. I'm trying to white blood out of my eyes. So like, this is so rookie, Like why am I? Did this happened to me?

I feel like such a rookie right now. Um. But the reason why I scored myself is I had my pack on and it was just plump full of year and it was pushing on my head when I was prone positioned to shoot the wolf, and I was like not even thinking of it, like oh yeah, like I was pushing my head forward, but no big deal. So that's why I scoped myself. But I still felt like, oh, man, I was a solid rest by that wolf tip over.

When I looked at my scope and the and the the gun was still dialed up to a thousand yards, I dialed down me. I dialed it down zero to and I just heard the click and I just cried. Oh. You know, I was like, and I knew you trying. Man.

I knew it was my fault too. So I mean, our family is all about like, when you're done shooting a gun, make sure to turn the scope down, you know, in the amoy and then it's just like but at the same time, usually before you leave the truck, you check that stuff too, you know, make sure everything's down.

So I could blame my brother all I want, but yet I should have checked before I left the pick up, you know what I mean again to rocking mistakes at once, and it was just painful to see that on the wolf. But um, but then just then I went on that ram hunt that she punt with a brother in law and Southern Idaho killed a great ram. Then I came back and um, and then killed that white wolf in the same area. So that was told a little redemption there. Yeah, yeah,

Well what a heck of a season. Oh man. So contrast from back in the day when there was a lot of game that was plentiful where you live versus now, is have the wolves put that much of a dent in the population of ungulates? Yeah? And it really hasn't. It actually kind of started along the Montana side of the Idaho border. That was one of the places I

saw what really happened first. Now I want to also give just a slight background of other predators we have to We have mountain lions, we have grizzly bears, black black bears. We have a lot of predators that run our landscape. And um, the image mountain lions yet yeah I think I did. Yeah, yeah, mountain lions too. Um. But you wouldn't see like extreme impacts like you would on a like a wolf pack would do. You know, you would see the dear aplation dip a little bit.

And our family was always taught about predator matchments, so we were always active with that. But the wolves were like next level when it came to when they moved into an area. You see, you it was hard not to see the impact they made. Um, And it really started for me. It was back in true thousand like two thousand eleven is when I really started to see a huge impact with both numbers. Um in one of a spot that I would consider like a childhood favorite

where I've been hunting this this area for years. There's the same elk WLOI oak, always used the same trail systems. It's just you know, there's a lot of timor there's a lot of brush, so it can be difficult to hunt elk. But our families hunted that country our whole life, and so um in some way it felt like a

routine for us every single year. You know, this is where the elk are the earliest part of the year, mid mid season, late season, and then if you never had a chance to see that big bowl, you you you pick up the sheds, you know, And I think that's what's really need about elk hunting, or just hunting any animals with antlers in general, is just the mystery when you find that elk shed or that mule deer, that monster mule there bug man like you live on

this mountain? Where do you live? And that was what always drove me to hunt the Timber country, was that mystery animal that nobody else saw you know, we're we're I mean there was elk and mule deer that would die of old age and that was special to us in some way, where you'd have these old deer that would live on the mountain with us. Um. Now, did we ever have an overpopulation problem with elk, mule deer

or moose. No, we never did. We have a lot of vegetation for them to eat, and we have other We have predators like I mentioned, mountain lions, grizzlies, black bears, coyotes. We got a lot of predators up here, and so we don't have an issue with have in a lack of predation. Um. But anyways, when the wolves first came in, it was back two thousand eleven and I was actually taking my sister at that time, Tanna was in college,

and she needed a white tail to fill her freezer. Like, well, here's a good spot where I've been seeing multiple white tails. And I took her in there and the wolves were howling in their heart, and so I took her in there and I had the privilege to shoot my first wolf. That was the first season they ever opened wolf Hunt Team. Um. It was that two thousand eleven and I shot my shot wolf the first day I went in there and and I called it in. It was pretty easy, just

because they've never had hunting pressure before. But then that was one of the first aha moments when I realized how quick they wise up two calls and in that same pack. I had them how multiple times in several different occasions, and I was never able to get another shot on a wolf um. So it was that was just like it really made scratch my head. I'm like, how are you supposed to manage this predator if I don't know how to kill him? And but that area is sad to say, but that area no joke, not

I'm not even exaggerating. Two years later, you could not find a milk track in there. Two years later after the wolf pack moved in there, and it and I'm not trying to exaggerate what I what I witnessed, but I felt like it was a plague where every drainage that a wolf pack would move in, the wildlife would move out, and it just kept happening. It's just like, why does this keep happening? And you know you have to turn a blind eye to not recognize it. I mean,

but we go in the wintering range. Like I said, I love shed hunting. You go on these wintering ranges and you're finding carcasses of animals that can't make it. You know, even what they would say, the sick in the week. I mean, these are mature elk that aren't past their prime. But when you get that deep snow that's chest high in the in the months of February March, when of snow you got that hard snowpack, the wolves

float right on top of the snow. And according to our wildli biologists locally here, they say that's when most of the damage is done. Um, any shed hunter out there knows what I mean by like when at the very like around the time you're picking up sheds, the animals are so exhausted that they, you know, that same bowl that would elude you all archery season, all of a sudden he's standing there staring at you. And it's not because he's stupid, he's exhausted. He's he's trying to

make it through the last part of winter. I don't know, have you experienced that at all? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I've seen the same thing. You know, that that same disappearance of game. You know, I've had um it's the same exact story. And I had a different part of Idoh

than you. And you know, at one time we had plentiful game in different areas, and now um are when we start seeing wolves and and uh in my part of the country, and when they started seeing a decline of animals was quite a bit earlier than what you guys had saw. Where I where I was hunting, was where they actually the first wolves in Idaho were planted, and so we we saw the effects a lot earlier.

And some of the areas they whether that whether they had eaten ailk or driven them out so hard that to this day, I mean I first started seeing the first effects and probably two thousand four, two thousand five, And to this day there's some drainages that still don't have any elk tracks. And I go always go back because I love the country. You know, there's always the romanticism to go back to the places you once loved and and still walk in those places and hunt help.

But I go back to this this last summer and did a lot of scouting and there's still not a single elk track in those places, and um, it's crazy, and a lot of it has. You know, the habitat has improved. We've we've had a lot of burns um since the wolves have been there, you know. And there's been a lot of proponent proponents of wolves and they're like, well, you know it's habitat related. But ge whiz. I mean, we've got we've got a lot of fantastic habitat now.

And still it's almost like they they they prune back the population elk past having any seed to replenish these some of these places. So yeah, it's going to take a long long time for it to come back. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm hopeful, you know, with the right kind of predator management, you know, aggressive predator management. You know that we're never gonna just kill off wolves in Idaho. Um. I don't think there'd be any way to do it

at this point. Um. But so, but with a pretty aggressive predator management system, maybe we can keep the numbers low enough to where the elcander have a chance and the moves too. So yeah, well no, and that we're already seen it too where we live. Um. Thankfully, we have a very dedicated hunters and trappers in our area, mostly trappers, and I think out of our area we probably have. I'm gonna say yeah, I would say we have some of the best trappers in Idaho just right

where we live. If you actually look at the unit I live in, we have the highest wolf harvest and I know that the majority of it is from three trappers. And and so they are really putting a smack down to the point one. And again I'm not going to stay any names because some of these guys they like staying in the downlow. Um. But some of these guys are so good they can trap out an entire pack in a long time. And I am finally, to this day, finally starting to see a rebound in our elchemy ole deer.

Now are the wolves gone. No, There's always one or two wolves that that move in and they try to start a new pack, and it just it pretty much just keeps the trappers occupied, some of them or against the point we're like, man, I I actually kind of like I think it's like any hunting where you start getting addicted to specific species you're hunting or trapping, you kind of start wanting more. And I think a lot

of trappers are worried to say that. But some trappers I know they've got they've they've learned to enjoy wolf trapping so much that they all sometimes they slip up and say kind of would like to have more wolves. Like I was like, well, let's hold off for a bit. How is our moves doing, how's our elk doing? How how is our deer doing? Okay, yeah, you're right, they're not that good right now. It's like, yeah, we need

to stay on it. So um but yeah, I and here's the thing too, I can't tell you how many times I, as an elk hunter, have been ambushed by wolf pack multiple times, multiple times. Um. One time it was just the perfect timing where I I'm stuck three wolves with my oh wow. And and that was again. I was still through the learning curve at that time.

I was just trying to fill my elk tag and I went eighteen days without getting an oak bugle, and I just pounded the mountains one mountain drain you know, one drainage after another, and there was just one particular area where there was just a like it just seemed to hold big bulls, like the quality was good. You know, there was a really popular um kicker genetics where you'd get a six by six but then you get kickers out of the side, which you make it a seven.

And that area had that type of genetics. So it was always an area that drawed me, you know there and um I went in there in hopes to get an oak view, and I got into some elk tracks, but nothing was talking. That's another thing you learned it with el because if there is elk inneria with wolves, they tend to stay quiet a little bit longer because they know when they give away their location, the wolf pack moves in. Oh, we mean me being just trying

to find an Elk. I'm I'm Bugle and I'm Kyle calling. I'm trying to get an Elk to answer. Well, guess what happened? The whole wolf pack surrounds me, and I have one trotten at me, right at right towards me, and I just pulled back my bow. By the time I got an arrow in its chest, it was it was just a couple of steps away. It was really close, and he took off. He took a couple of leaps, tipped over and I on. At that moment, I was in so such thick brush that I thought that was

the only wolf. And then after I see that wolf tip over. The whole pack came out looking at it and just trying to figure out what's going on. The wolf pack was just as compute as as I was, but I just knew as another opportunity. So I knocked another arrow, pulled back, and I stick another wolf and it died, I mean out one died really quick. It yelled and just tipped over. I was like, holy crap, because I can't believe this is really half and and uh. I knocked a third arrow, and at that point the

wolves are really confused and they balanced. I saw two other wolves. One disappeared. There's another one right there close to me, still still about twenty yards and I stuck it and it ran in the brush too. Um. So the unfortunate thing is the third one I was not able to find. But I stuck him good and I saw the blood worn out, so I mean it was a good shot. He ran in the brush somewhere and died in some hole. But it was kind of raining too,

and it was really hard to follow that blood trail. Um, but I was I did successfully pull two out of the three that I stuck out of the woods there. Um, but that was kind of a nerve wracking experience in itself. But I think, I mean, honestly, that's what really got me in the wolf hunting. I just started. I think, as most people feel, they just just got so sick and tired of dealing with this. You know. I moved back to my hometown because I loved the areas so much.

I love the mountains, I love the moose. We pull some incredible moose out of here if like one of our friends drew a tag or one of a family member, we pull some great bulls out of here. Um sheds. Oh my gosh, I can even talk about how many moose shes that we still have. We still have the proofs in the pudding. Um. The only moosees we've kept are all the ones under bone that are over Boone and Crockett, and man, we have a pile of Boone and Crockett bull moose from just our area. UM. So

really there was a lot of moose. Let's just say they're actually one of the first to go um in my opinion, just because they're a little bit more of a they're not as adaptable as elk and other animals. So I feel like the moose were the first to go when the wolves came through. Um, but anyways, yeah, it just it took that much. It just just hunting meal. They're hunting elk and just getting no results anymore like

I used to. And I was just I felt like I was always on the tail of a wolf pack and find me I'm just like enough enough how to do something about something. And I felt like any wolf hunter, really skilled wolf trapper that I know right now, they were once really skilled elk hunters. It's just everybody that has that were anybody that I know that's so passionate about wolf or that they were so passionate about olk hunting.

They've just all turned into being really good wolf hunters, just just out of spite of what's happened, you know. I think I think we all want to bring back what we used to have. And and some people say, is it well, is it that we have an extra amount of hunters? No, I actually think we have less hunters now than I remember as a kid. Um, I think so. And I think the reality is there's it's not good hunting here. Most of the locals that I know that are cutters now don't hunt here. They travel.

What I see, like I bumped in two guys the other day from Texas. I felt bad for him. I felt bad. He's just like he's putting on miles and he's in a he's in a wolf hub. I'm telling you, like, like he is, if I have an elk tag here, that's the last place I would go. And he has pounded that mountain and he's like, man, I'm going to find an elk. I'm like, oh boy, you you you can have this mount to yourself. My friend. I was like, you're not out cut back here, Like no, I'll both

find back here. That If that gives you a hint, yeah, yeah. But anyways, it's just I'm starting to see and I guess we could talk a little bit more about this, but I am starting to see a little bit of a rebound come back. Yeah, so that's great. Yeah. Um, now you've told me before, um about calling wolves. Mhmm. You had to kind of get a little bit tricky, had to try to improvise and try new methods, new sounds, new new things to call in wolves instead of you know,

it's been my experience trying to call wolves. I'm gonna let's face it, I'm a major novice at it. Um. Every time I'm elk hunting and I hear wolves howling, Uh, I start howling back, and and I haven't howl anny in yet. They'll they'll howl till the cows come home. But and then I'll kind of use some like maybe some calf and distress type sounds, but I just never

have had any close a distance. Um, what made you kind of decide to to mix things up and try some different sounds until you've kind of figured out what wolves like. Well, A lot of it is just I

was really passionate about it. I'm a sucky trapper, and so I'm like, Okay, all I have is to be like, I'm a really good hunter, but I'm a sucky trapper, and I'm like, I feel like the only way I can benefit to people or to to this area is to to hunt wolves, and to hunt them when the trapping season is not around, because the trapping season is very small, it's very short window, and I feel like I can do a lot of good if I can

figure it out. Um. A lot of it was talking to some Canadians that have hunting wolves in the past, but also, surprisingly enough, a lot of what I learned about hunting wolves is is the same as I would hunt a herd bull olk. Um. There's just some things like you know, if you're from a distance and you're calling in a herd bull, sometimes he's gonna run from you. Sometimes he's not really going to acknowledge you. He he deems you as a threat in some way that you're

trying to take his cows. But if you can get in that window of his territory where you're just close and he feels like he can't run anymore, he comes in. Um. That was one of the first things that I did that was really helpful with wolves, is you get him howling. But yeah, the one thing you always have to think about, and the one thing I always had to think about is I'm not just running calls aimlessly. I'm trying to put myself in a scenario and put myself in their head.

I know, I know this sounds funny to say, like or cliche like be like the wolf, you know, but you literally are. You're trying to create a scenario for that wolf. I think it's very ineffective if you had an electronic call and you have wolves and you try to run a dying moose and it's like, oh, that's not working. Let's run a dying deer. But that's not working. Let's run a dying elk. That's not working. Let's run

a dyeing rabbit. By then you just wised up that wolf pack so much you're never gonna have a right right. So those are natural sounds of nature. Like all of those one after another in the same little spot. Yeah, it's like hunt. So yeah, there's a there's a dying faun, a dying elk, there's a wolf hellowing, all in the same spot. How weird is that? Like wolves kick that stuff up really quick. They know, like you said, that's not what happens in nature. You have to make things

natural for them. Um. One of the first things I tell people is like, when people ask, well, what calls you use, I'm like, for prejator calls, Well, I asked them, like, well, what animals do the wolves eat in your area? You don't want to use the dyeing moose if there's no moose in the area, right, You know what I mean? Like, you try to customize your calls to the area. That's one of the first things that I've taught myself as

a customize two. When it comes to calling, you've got to remember that wolves don't like other wolves that are that are endangered to the area. Wolves are always in war with wolves. The one thing that the environment mentalists are right about is wolves are very similar to people. That's true, and that's from you know, they have the family dynamic, but all so they're at war with each other. It's almost like people like back in the day with people in villages and wolves are trying to take other

other wolves territories. These things happen all the time. So when you're howling wolves, a lot of the howling you're getting back is warning house they get out of our territory, this is our territory. But they're too afraid to come in because they know that if they come in too close, they're going to start a war with another wolf pack. So they're kind of stand offish. And so that's probably the biggest thing that most people get is they held

back and the wolves don't come out. Every so often you get a dummy that will walk out and get shot.

But usually if you're howling from a distance, they don't just come running in wagging their tails that they'll they'll usually you know, you can set up in a wide open spot you're calling the wolf pack, and they will hold up right at timberline and never poke their head out, and they will howl and it'll sound like there's a hundred of them, But you know they're actually doing that on purpose or trying to make themselves sound like even if there's three or four dogs in the pack, they're

going to try to make themselves sound like there is over a dozen. They're trying to be as aggressive as they can. They're trying to chase you out, say look, we're a big pack, get out of our territory. Move on. And so a lot of people when they're howling, they really don't know what the vocals me either, you know, like you don't know like if you hear a wolf healing, you gotta know what is that wolf saying? Is he is he warning me? Is he warning the pack? Or

is he saying? Hey, how you doing? You know there's there's that like friendly how where it's like it's not aggressive, it's not a warning how it's just saying hey, as it going, And you've got to know what the hells are to know what you need to do next, And and so a lot of what my success came through is understanding the dynamic of a wolf pack and understanding um, the sounds and what they need. Because if I hear a warranty, how then I know I need to be

a little bit more aggressive. I need to get in there. In a lot of cases, like I was saying with the herd bowl, I move in quiet and I just sneak in, stop howling, getting as close as I can, and then start barking and yipping right in their territory

and sometimes you can get them to come in. Also, it's even nice to do that with a predator call um, where you get really close you know you have so they can't put that tune two together where if you how let's say you got located yards away right, Um, you've got on halling so you you know their location, know where they're at. You move in there. You're getting close to the points where you do feel really uncomfortable, where you're like, man, you you can feel it, you

know what I mean. You feel that you're getting close to the pack. Um, stop run a couple of little prayer of calls. Less calling the better, Like if it's a dying rabbit or if it's a fun running for thirty seconds and just stop and just stay still if they're Sometimes you have wolves that are you have you have the pack, but then you have wolves on the outside of the pack that aren't howling. And sometimes if you try to get yourself too close, you're gonna bump wolves.

Doesn't mean they're afraid, they're just they may not know what you are and they may be a little confused. Um, But you just want to try to play it safe. If you try to get as close as you can, set up, try to do a little prayer of call thirty seconds, stop nothing, try to move in a little bit closer and and like worst case scenario if you if you move in, you're just really scratching your head

and you don't know where that wolf pack is. Try to throw one really quick how and try to get them to walk and again see where they moved to. But but in a lot of cases when when I did that, they would just come running in like it was a dinner bell, and it was almost like you didn't have time to grab the gun off the tree. You set the gun on the side, you run a payer of call for thirty seconds. The majority of the wolves I have killed, like after I do my last call,

within seconds, not minutes. If a wolf is ready to come into your call, you don't have to wait long for it. The longest it took for wolves to ever come into my call was six minutes. That was a very long time for me, and I almost got up and left because I had one wolf already spot at me when I moved in. I was I tried, like I was telling you this whole scenario moving in, I moved in, I bumped the wolf alreadio was like crap,

and the pack was still helding another um. I'd like to say it was about a quarter mile and I was like you like the same good um. But it's still it took them six minutes to get to me, and but they're at a very low trot when they came in. But besides that, most wolves, it's just they come in running fast, your dinner bell when you when you do the right calls that they want to hear, especially a dying animals. I mean, it's it's no brainer for them. Why would they be hesitant unless they've been

shot at before with those calls? Okay, Um. The one thing that I always tell people is there's a lot of wolves that aren't wised up, and this, this, and that technique is very effective, and just moving in, get as close as you can and prayer call the thing is without the how though, you'll never know their location. It's not like kyo hunting where you can sit yourself out in a desert and just expect to run a prayer to call, inspect a kyo to show up. Wolves

aren't like that. There's not wolves. There could be a lot of wolves in an area, but it doesn't mean they're just scattered among the landscape. They're all together in a group and you can I'd say, um, similar our wolves are their territories about fifteen by fifteen square miles or sometimes even twenty square miles or sorry, not square mole, but like twenty twenty miles, which would be like I'm not doing the math right right now in my head, but I mean over two hundred square miles and then

making sense. Um, so a territory is really big for a wolf pack. And so I say that the biggest challenge you're going to face while trying to find wolves is finding them period. The final wolf pack is your biggest challenge. I mean twelve dogs can do a lot of damage to an area. So in two hundred square miles even three hundred square miles, a dozen wolves can

really mills mess up in milk population in there. Um. So I think the reason why there's not as many wolf unders as there is other hunters because it is so challenging. You really have to put an extra for effort to find a wolf pack and the pursue and kill one. But I'll tell you this, it is the biggest high you'll ever get take in the woods. It's

there's nothing like it. I literally, I'm telling you right now there that I had an elk tag in my area this year, and the first week of archery elk season, I chose the wolf hunt. Wow, that's how addicted I am to it. It's like, why am I not elk hunting? And then when I killed that white wolf, I was like, all right, let's get back into elk hunting. I tried a couple of days and I was like, you know what, I'm just not getting into it. I want to go back wolf And I was like, how about this. I

will elk hunt in an area where there's wolves. That way, if an elk doesn't come in. A wolf comes in, you know. And that's when I killed that that young six point. I went in there and I bumped in the wolf tracks, and I actually, I think, because wolves are on my mind, I actually thought it was a wolf coming running in because it came in quiet. Um. I let off a bugle, um, phelps helps bugle the renegade, right, the big one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man, the renegade.

Just one bugle a mile from the pickup, and I heard the woods come alive and I was literally looking at a wolf track when I bugled. I was like, I thought it was a wolf pack, and um, that's six point and a and another young bull came out on the gated road and was staring at me, and I was like, oh, this is too easy. Knocked a narrow. As I knocked my arrow, he turned broadside for me. Holy. I was like, okay, okay, this is too easy. I gave him one, and yeah he didn't he didn't go far.

So no, I was super grateful. And then two days later I caught up to that wolf pack and that was a different wolf pack. Um, so yeah, I think I just listening to you talking. You and I have talked a lot in the past, and I think there's a lot of similarities to calling elk and calling wolves. You know, you we'll kind of break it down. Okay, you have to locate elk to call one in, right, so from a distance you're gonna locate an elk um or a wolf. You know, located wolf from a distance. Okay,

Then once you've located him, get in close. You know, we're typically we don't try to call in an elk clear across the big canyon unless you know. Most of the time you're you're trying to close the gap. So same with a wolf. You know, once you get him talking and say, okay, I know where they're at, put the calls away, get over there, get close. I do the same thing like when I'm I'm creeping in on a bowl and like I start getting that little funny fee and like, man, I'm I'm gonna bust him here

any second. You can feel it. And you said the same thing about you know, getting in position for calling wolves, you know, get in close to where you're almost thinking you're gonna bust him, and then set up and then uh um, then do some calling. Now elk calling sometimes I call a little a lot. Sometimes I call it a little just kind of depending on the situation and stuff. But um, like you said, uh, call a little bit, you know, thirty seconds or so and get ready and

if nothing happens, move on. Whereas ELK sometimes we'll call for a while and then maybe just kind of wait for maybe thirty minutes because it may take a bowl a little bit longer to kind of come in quiet or whatever. Um. But so there's are some similarities and but some differences too, But I can see the allure. I'm not a patient person by nature, and uh, I really like, you know, the thought of things happening a

lot quicker. Um as far as calling in a wolf, you know, um, sometimes I get a little bit impatient on elk Um. So um that that sounds really fun and I'm gonna definitely definitely pencil and some time to go wolf hunting a wolf calling You kind of let the cut out of the bag a little bit there when you said prototype wolf howler. So I don't know if I'm supposed to talk about this, Jason, if you're listening, don't fire me, but uh, fire me right. We didn't

have you sign an NDA or anything. But last last was it last fall or last winter. UM, I sent you a message a video of me blowing on a call, and you're like, yeah, that don't sound that right a

wolf howler. And I'm like, okay, okay. So I kept messing with this um wolf howler, and uh, I was sitting around my house here getting kind of bored, and and I took that mouthpiece off our easy bugle or bugle tube, and I put that on one of our other smaller bugle tubes of plastic tube, and I started cutting it here and there, and I cut this, and I cut that, and then I start experimenting with different thicknesses of latex on that easy bugler to where I

finally got it to work. It sound like a pretty good wolf foul. And you're like, yeah, that don't sound too bad. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna send you on. So I sent you one up there and to try it out. And and in your opinion, what do you think did it? Does it sound right? Does it sound good? Yeah? And wolves have all different you know, like young younger wolves have their their own volume. UM, older ones have their own volume. I feel like it's kind of in

the middle. I like it. Yeah, I like it quite a bit. I don't feel like you want one that's too like low like a heifer cow. You get that, you know, the really low alpha. Hell yeah, that's that really scared as other wolves out, you know, like that's if you get like a little bit more of a younger wolf foul it sounds, it's it's less intimidating. Um. I like it because it's just so convenient packing in the back country too. I actually throw that one now

in my pack while I'm elk hunting. It's it's no extra weight, it's hardly any way, you know, just throwing the bag and in case we get bumped into a wolf back, that sucker gets pulled out and I start held them. Um yeah, I mean literally right when you sent that to me, that was it. A week after I it was so funny to tell you that story where I held and one just came running in almost to the pickup. Yeah, that's crazy. It was so mind

blown to me. So I get this prototype to try and usually when you get out of pick up, it's like the same with the elk bugle, Right, you throw a bugle from the pickup. You never know if there's ones close by. It was like wolf foul, and I knew it was an area where wolves run often, but I still had a few miles that go from the pickup before I on the wolf. So I throw how. I hear how up the canyon. I'm like, huh, well, I'm getting my pack on, my gun still in the ring.

All of sudden you hear the how close. We're like, oh crap, I need to get that gun out. So I get the gun out and locked the pickup and I just started running up the canyon. And I still thought I had a long ways ago. And then I heard the how up close, and like, oh, shoot, it's right there. And and then the wind switched and was blowing right toward its direction, and then it stopped. I was like, huh, that's weird. U. I mean, obviously if it smelled me, and smelled me, I'm sitting there walking.

I looked right behind me, and the pickup is still in sight. By the way, if I look behind me, I left behind me, and the wolf is standing in the trail right behind me, right And by the time I, you know, tried to we you know, pull the gun out to shoot it was it already darted off in the timber um. But that was my first experience with that, with that prototype. Is that wolf right there? And no, it's it's definitely versus you know, like I was telling

this recent wolf pack I was working on. The demeanor was so different um when I was using that hell. But here's the thing. So I did shoot at that wolf with that hell and that doesn't help any you know, when just wising up the pack. Unfortunately, I know, I'm always telling people, don't wise at the pack, don't wise at the pack. And then I miss a wolf of my crap. I wised up the pack. Yeah, and they were still vocal. So that so I'll tell you, do you want the story of the white Wolf? I didn't.

I didn't go full beto. Yeah yeah, let's let's hear it. Okay, okay. So so the day I get back from the ram hunt, and you know, I'm like, I just wolf was still in my mind. I felt like I had to redee myself. I still had that. I still had that scab on my head and like, come on, I gotta make this right. This is the pack. I really want it. Anyways, I can't tell you how many Elk families taken out of that drainage. So we go there Tanna. Tanna, by the ways,

that because I'm Adam, was hunting with us. So Tanna, you know, flew from Alaska home to Idaho and as as I okay, back up a little. She wanted the wolf, and so I just dropped her tons of pins to places of tribe. I'm like, stay away from this area. This is my area. You can only go in there with me, Like that's a pack I've been working on, you know. And so I was so a senator to these other places, you know, to try out. And then finally I was like, okay, you can try that area,

but I think of grizzly. She met a grizzly and she backed out in the dark or something kind of spooked her, and so like, okay, I'll go with you. You know, um it's a pretty high infestive grizzly place too. But anyways, so we get in there and I forgot that, you know, well I didn't forget, but Elsie's started seeing there's people everywhere in the mountains and and there's usually is a camp there right at the head end where

I usually get into the wolves. So I kind of messed up my whole hunt in some way having those elk hunters in there like shoot, and so I'm said, they're scratching my head. And this was actually kind of a god given or just a just a fluke, but I was We're about ready to leave, and we were just driving away from where I normally start hiking, and a wolf crossed in front of us, and I was like, whoa okay, and we jumped down to hold the whole

pack line. I'm like, whoa okay. So that these that all the elk hunters were packed in in the back country, it pushed the wolves out. Yeah, so, and so we were we had so we had the wolf pack located, and I was running that howler. Um. But the thing is that I mean beans that they've already I've been messed with before. They weren't really I could tell. I could already hear their howls. And my sisters like, we need to go in there. I'm like, no, Tanna, that

those are warning howls. We need we need to do something differ in here. So I actually, um, we went around the wolf pack, Tanna said, at their escape route, and I came back down. I just told her. I was like, just stay there. You got shooting lanes. As the wolf pack runs past you, you're gonna have some pretty good shots there. And I'm just gonna move up the gut of the canyon and and try to held my way up. And what happened when I moved up

is I split up the pack. Yeah, and so, so part of the pack went one way, the other pack went another way. So when I met it back up a tann we came back down. I mean, there's this old there's this old older road in it's not maintained. And I hit that road and you could see tracks going both ways where they were held that morning, but you could see there were some young ones that went

one way and the other other way. Um and so, and this is kind of this reminds me back of um, you know what happens like sometimes if you split up a herd and olk hered, but the herd bulls and all that alarmed. But what like for me, maybe it's happened to like doesn't the elk sometimes the bowl doesn't loop around trying to round up the cows. Yeah exactly, yea,

So that's kind of what happened here. So we split up the pack and I was just like, well, Tanna, like the majority of the trucks are going up the road, so I had that direction. There is a spot where they'll hang up the canyon there and I throw a how every so often did I just mainly just walking up the road and just around the corner. He came back around the corner of that that that old Brushton road and a point blank and I just shot Redemption.

And I think he was the alpha. And the reason why I see that is because, um, well you see all the tracks when you're going up the road, and you can see there's one track that's just unusually large. You know, It's like that's the other thing. Some people say like, well, how do you know alpha? Well, sometimes you can just tell based on the tracks. If you're falling the pack, you can see the alpha track. You can see just one track is just unusually bigger than

the rest of the pack. And and that's the one I killed. I killed the one with the unusually large track that was with the pack. And he was a big dog. He's a really big dog, and so I mean he's the effish and game actually couldn't even get the tooth out of him. You see that that usually in the case, I get the teeth are really in there because you know how they get rid of a bear tooth, how they take a bar tooth out to age it, and the wolf tooth to the fishing game

couldn't get it out. And usually that's that means like an older mature wolf, those teeth are so set in they won't come out. So um, so he's definitely got some age to him how to get him aged. But yeah, he's a beast. That's awesome. That's awesome. If you could leave your our listeners. Uh, with one last closing thought, maybe one one piece of advice for someone who wants to get into calling wolves, what would that be? Um? Get out, just be ready to hike over lots of

country you want. You remember I said, how like you got to be like a wolf in some way. Now I can't. I can't walk as fast as a wolf, but you gotta be willing to put on some miles. Um. But I think the other thing to say to and and getting into wolf hunting is the hunt smart. It's it's so hard to find that balance. And I know some really skilled elk hunters that are just and you

probably know these guys too. They're just too aggressive and and they're the type of guys that actually doesn't like their type of mentality, and hunting wolves doesn't work because they're just too aggressive. Um and but it works for elk. But then also there's the opposite where you're too safe and you don't kill a wolf either. So it's good to just play a smart. I mean, I'm always on the attack mode. I always want to when I get a wolf pack hell, and I'm I'm there to kill

them that day. I'm not saying that, Oh, I'm mark working on them. Maybe I'll come back tomorrow. I'm like, no, I hear them today, I know where they're a I'm gonna go in there and kill them. But plays smart the winds blowing bad back out even if you know, like you don't want to wise up the pack. I just if they can, if they can relate your hell to that scent, will never come into your hell again. I'll never come to that call again. It's the same thing.

Like I mentioned before, I can't tell you how many times I kicked myself because I was too anxious to get into the wolf pack, even on a bad wind that I knew I could have avoided. We're just starting to swirl, and it's like I should have just stayed out a little bit longer, waited for my wind to stable itself and then mess up the pack and then never having that opportunity against um. So hunt smart. I don't want to say hunt smart, not hard. Hunt both hunt smart and hard um, but be willing to put

in some time. It takes some time to learn about the pack they're hunting. And it's not always about learning how to hunt wolves. It's it's about learning how to hunt the particular pack you're after. So if there's a pack your particularly after, you want to learn everything about that wolf pack you're after, because they gained different habits in the wolf pack next door, right, and so learning

about that particular I guess. The same thing with the herd bull, you know, Like I've like that big bull I killed three years ago because he was different than any ok, and so I had I can't I could use the same routine that I would do another elk. I had to customize my hunt and to kill him that bowls. Same thing with wolves. Learn learn to adapt, be willieve to adapt, improvise and have fun doing it. Yeah, well, man,

I love it. That's that's some great, great information. I find it fascinating and I think a lot of our listeners are gonna love this. Tom Um, you have an educational platform that teaches people tips and tactics and wolf hunting and then a lot of other animal hunting to um. Once you briefly tell us about that real quick before were wrapping it up, Yeah, absolutely so I do. I started a Wolf Huny master class and it's it's a

very thrill course. Um. When I first created the course, I wanted to be very affordable for people because I knew it was going to be a challenge. But after I put in so much time and money and creating this course and making it big like, it's actually turned out bigger than I thought. And so even the the the tech lady that that created the website for me, she told me I needed to charge a good price for it, and but as cheap as I can make it.

I made it four seven bucks. Um. So far, I've had really positive reviews on that Wolf Honey master Class, and and the positive thing about it too is you'll get your money back if you kill you know, you kill a wolf, and if you're signed up with the foundation for wildlife management. You'll make that money and turn on top of that the first worth at UM I've sold first for over five bucks, and the skull you

can get between a hundred hundred fifty bucks too. So um so one wolf will pay for the course and then you you know knowledge. It's just it. It was one of the most painful learning curves. I'll be honest, I'd say it took me four years. So I really started getting that a HU moment where we're like, Wow, this is working, like me going out there and killing wolves, this is actually working. And now it sounds like I gave a lot of information on this podcast, I actually

have given very little. Um Like, there's a lot of information on the wolf Honi Masterclass. Hours and hours of video footage where we go over maps, show where wolf packs like to live, um, we go over sounds, wolf sounds, vocalizations, several different scenarios that are effective UM calls, so on and so forth. So there's a lot of information. I highly recommend checking that out. UM Again, it's worth it. I even had a really positive review. It was one

of my favorite reviews so far. We're had this long time wolf trapper say that he bought this course being skeptical, and then after the course he says, man, I'm glad I spent the money and I'm really excited the wolf lind And I was like, that is like one of my That's what I like to hear. Ye, And and I want and I got more information to add as well. Two. I'm always doing what I can to add more information to the course. Um. So and if anybody has additional questions,

you can always ask me on Instagram. Was stuck and right and ask you know, if there's anything that you don't see on the course, for free to ask and I'll I'll get it on there. Um. But then another thing I've been too is is getting um getting other experienced woolf unders involved in the course. Oh yeah, people that have different experiences and different techniques and hunting wolves than I do. Um. That's very important to me, especially in areas outside of timber country because we're a hunt

in heavy timber country. We have friends at hunt Southern Idaho where it's really open stage brush and they're very successful wolf hunters. I've got them involved in that side of the wolf funding master class where they teach about that their experiences. Um, but in the and you start realizing that there's a lot of similarities between our techniques and tactics and how to hunt them. Okay, but but yeah, so that's with that. Yeah, so that's the Wolf Funning

master Class. Dot com is where you can find that. Then, and then I do also have a mule Deer master class as well, which has uh actually been very successful as well. I've been really pleased with how how that turned out. But a lot of that comes with our experience and hunting mule deer in the timber. It's a different challenge that a lot of people haven't experienced before. So, so those two classes, but yeah, the main the main

one just means that we're on the wolf topic. Um that will funding master class would be the one to check out. Excellent, excellent, And where else can they find you? On social media? What what? It's stuck in the rut? So yes, so stuck in the rut, um, stuck with an end the rut. We have the YouTube channel Instagram. I do have a TikTok. Actually we have a big following on TikTok. But I'm I'm pretty uh tie them what I can do on TikTok. Yeah, I get I get in trouble a lot on TikTok. We Yeah, the

censorship is really bad. I could hurt. Like if I have a gun on my belt or a pistol on my belt, they flag it. So that's like pretty much every outdoor video said that makes it challenging, but we still Yeah, so so I went to focus on that. Instagram is actually the easiest way to reach out to me. Yeah, I mean YouTube. A lot of people love our YouTube videos. It's just we get so much comments and a lot of I mean a combination of people that support, but

you also get a lot of the world too. Yeah, so it's hard to really keep track of of hunters and non hunters on the comments on the YouTube. Instagram is the easiest for me, Tom, I can't tell you how appreciative I am for you coming on to night talking. I know it's late at your at your house, and it's late at my house too, so um, thank you so much for coming on. And uh maybe we'll be able to get you on again here one of these

days and and talk about some more wolf wolf hunting stories. Yeah, absolutely, I love talking about it. Thanks again, awesome, Thank you so much,