Ep. 21: Mountain Whitetails and How to Hunt Them with Jon Gabrio

and kicking. Can't complain. I think we first hunted together in two thousand and sixteen Archery, Idaho, and then the last time I hunted together was just recently here in New Mexico. MEU and Dirk went there in UM. We've had some great trips together. Um, But today I really want to dive in to white tail hunting, whitetail callinging. You know everything whitetail, and I'm gonna be completely honest, like I know enough, but I I don't know the

intricacies in the details. I really want to dive in and talk to you about some of that, um you know. On the right on the heels of us launching our brand new deer call category, which should be launching October tent you've got a chance to play around with them, So we'll definitely dive into the new deer calls kind of the offering and what we're bringing to the table as far as that as well. Yeah, absolutely, I'm excited

for that line. It calls, um, you know, just for myself obviously being a big white tail hunter and whatnot, and I love it. And um, I got a chance to mess with them and obviously do the photography and whatnot for him too, and so it gave me a chance to kind of be hands on and I'm excited for you guys to come out with those. Thanks. Thanks. So now we're gonna jump into our listener questions once again.

If you have your own questions for me or our guests, um, please submit them at ct D at Phelps Game Calls dot com. These ones are a little more geared towards white tails. We'll be right up John's alley. Um. The first one is when in looking for a white tail spot, just in general, what do you what would you look for like or you know, back up to a thirty thousand foot view, John, what makes a good white tail spot at least in in the what the western um

you know mountains that you typically do your white tail hunting. Yeah, I would say the biggest key that I look for is I start tearing apart maps Onyx and you know whatever, Alex Google Earth. The biggest thing that I'm looking for pinch points like ridges, big mountain ranges and a bunch of like finger ridges that will run down into like a flat um type of older willow bottom type flat or even some big timber um that has some water around, but it provides an ample um kind of trail system

that those deer can come down. Those big bucks will kind of hang out up higher on the mountain and as the ruts starts, so kind of work their way down and into these benches and they'll travel the same kind of ridges coming down and then they'll hit and they'll rut, and that would kind of be like the thirty thou foot view without really diving down into it after that, but really looking for a lot of finger ridges like three, four, five, six that will come together,

and where those come together, those deer will travel down and they'll hit that bench and that then that's kind of where you'll have some of your best action or in Washington specifically, you know, since that's what you know the best, and and it maybe are you looking for certain elevations? Are you looking for three No matter if the mountain goes up the three thousand feet, you're you're trying to be at like three quarters of that high? Are you? How does that work? Are you does any

mountain hole, white hill? Are you trying to get like certain elevations or just certain areas on the ridgeline? Yeah, So that that's kind of the tough part. Um. I guess it really depends on whether you know, like usually in November when we're over there um hunting, um, the weather is key. And if you get up too high, like you know, we've had years where all of a sudden, a storm, freak storm will come in and we'll get of snow and you can't even make it some of

your stands. So I kind of have several areas that I've picked out. Some of my stands are lower, they might only be feet, and then some of my other stands are forty three hundred feet in elevation. Anything above that forty three feet, you're really risking it. If a big snowstorm comes in but I found that a lot of those bucks will kind of hang out in that thirty fred like four thousand foot range um. In some of the bigger deer are kind of in that higher

four thousand range um. But you're definitely gonna be pushing your you know, you're chaining up usually a lot of years trying to get to those stands. But it's the best hunting, So it just kind of depends. I have a multitude of, you know, areas scouted out in different areas depending on the weather, um, but definitely looking at

those little bit higher elevations. Some stands I've had at five thousand feet um and the thing you start running into their is meal deer, and so you know, it's like you know, you're you start fighting the male deer herds. But I've had some giant white tail box at that elevation too, So um, yeah, it's just it's kind of depends, but I would say that thirty forty two ish range

is probably your best best bet where I'm at. I know other guys that have hunt they hunt them at six thousand feet, So it just kind of depends, gotcha. So kind of to reiterate what you said, you're looking for a lot of finger ridges that kind of lead into this a similar or a shared bottom. Um is you know, so those travel corridors is what you're looking for for a white tail spot that you want to

invest some time? Yep ye, okay, alright. Question number two, if you could only hunt for a ten day section of the season, when would you hunt? Like you know, so I guess give us your best action, you know, bucks pushing dose. Um, when would that ten days be? Um? Where I'm at, I would say probably like the eighteenth through November like that, that last like ten days ish if the month is probably your hottest, heaviest action. Um,

I've actually shot a lot of deer before that. Um. But if you're very trying to pattern him at that point, and it's it's just different hunting, they're not going to see near the action. Um. But that that last part of the month is definitely your best time. Okay. And and keep in mind, um, we're in you know, northern Washington, and is the you go further south that gets a little bit later. So keep that in mind. We're talking specifically about you know, northern Washington. You know, as you

as you move south throughout the country. Um, you know there's gonna become later you moved north through, it's gonna be a little bit earlier. So, um, I know we're going to Kansas this year for my first white tail hunt, and we're trying to hit that like November, which you know I would I would think would be maybe a tad earlier, but it's kind of like trying to you know, trying to hit just enough of that pre rut right to when they're gonna be kind of in the in

the peak and and and do that. So that's when we had elected to put our ten days was November should be a good time. That kind of guarantees you're you're in that pre to prime rate. Yeah. The one thing I'll say with you picking those dates and and honestly I usually start hunting around that time frame myself, Um, is you'll catch some of those big deer out cruising looking for their first dough before they get on their lockdown. When you start getting into that eighteen on, you'll risk

one of your big bucks. He'll get on a dough and then they'll just lock themselves down and it might be to three days and he'll vanish, like completely off your camera out of the area, he'll be gone. So I would say, if I had to pick, if you want to truly hunt like one big deer, I would be looking at those earlier dates. When you're going I think that would be prime time. Yeah, yeah, you know, relating back to Elk. You know, it's always fun to be out there during the peak, right, you know, listen

to biggling. But I've always said, if you want to kill those bigger bowls, sometimes it's easier to do, you know, just on the front side of that peak route when they are on lockdown and they're in full control. That heard. So it sounds like it's very relatable to a white tailed deer hunting. Here is your spot on. I always joked around that I was gonna holt white tails when I when I turned seventy and couldn't walk around and

chase mel deer anymore. But I'm I'm pretty excited change it up, do something new, and I think there are you know, hunting's hunting that you know. It's it's just a it's a culmination of putting together lots of information and strategies and where you're seeing deer and what you're seeing them doing. And trying to come up with the best planned and you know, think of win. So I'm excited to to to see you know how all this

white tail thing comes together. Yeah, I'm excited for you to go sit the tree and freeze and then you can tell me all about it. It'll be fun. So once again, if you've got your own questions for us here at Cutting the Distance, please submit your questions to ct D at Phelps game Calls dot com. Now I'm gonna dive into my questions for you John on white toil hunting, but first I want to do a little recap on your elk season if you're willing to talk about it. Um, you know, we we stay in touch.

We text. I think I was in Oregon while you were in Montana. There you and your wife had a very successful hunt, and I just wanted to give you give us a quick five five minute recap on on how all that went down if if you can. Yeah, for sure, Um, yeah it was. It was fun just kind of texting back and forth and seeing what we each had going on. Um, you know, obviously it's your buddies and you want to see him be successful. So um, but yeah, it was. We spent a lot of time

this year. Uh, we've never set foot in this place and scouted it all summer, packed in water, did everything right and just put in a ton of work. I mean I was on Google earthen Onics like literally every single night, making plans eight through Z and then some um and it paid off. Um. I mean we got in oz on bowls pretty much every single day there. I don't think there was a day I never had

a bowl come by within bow range. And we had found a bowl that I found during the summer, and I lost him after he shed, and then ended up picking him back up at about day six or seven of the hunt, and he had like thirty cows and we watched him it couldn't make a play. Had him the next day at eight yards all day and just the wind was messed up, and then um, all those cows, there's too many eyes. And the weird thing is he didn't have any satellite bowls running around um, and so

they had all kind of vanished. And then they moved off that night and then I knew where they headed. They went north, and so we went the next day, didn't see him, couldn't turn him up. Literally just we kind of backed out and we were like, let's go back to camp for the day and just like regrouped for a second and just kind of relaxed, and then

we got in the evening and try a whole new area. Yeah, and uh ended up churning him up like five miles away north and he was out in this big sage flat like all on his own, and there was like a hundred cows. He lost all thirty cows and then there was like a hundred cows with about four bulls about two and a half miles away, and uh, Kylie ended up spotting her ball um at about a mile away ish and it had four cows and a calf.

And we watched him and you know, it's kind of one of those things that wind was perfect and here they came feeding across this big sage flat headed towards us, and you know, it's kind of one of those things.

At first, it was like I don't know if they were were gonna get a play on him, Like we were on a scouting mission honestly, like sitting back with spotting scopes and whatnot, just like looking at these elk and um pretty quick more elks started popping up all over the place, and here came her bowl with these four cows and a calf, and I'm you know how

you do. You're just like, well, they're feeding towards us, and this could be really good for us because the wind's good, except we're not in a good spot where in the wide open, and I don't know, I mean, you know, it was like just instinct kind of took over and I was like, kydie. I was like, we gotta run like as fast as we can, like around four hundred yards around the back side of this hill

and like pop out. I was like, they're gonna come through this saddle to our left, and we got to get the wind right and I was like, I don't even know if they're gonna come by, but I was like, they're gonna come by somewhere in there, so I was like we might get a shot. We might not. And then my bowl spots her bowl and her elks like four or like eight hundred yards away at that point, and my bull is like a mile off and he sees them and starts just ripping bugles, and it was

I was like, oh boy, here we go. I was like, he's gonna come take those cows. Not sure where his thirty cows went. So we uh got in position, ran around like four yards, got behind this the only rock and bush that was in the area, and I started ripping off like three like loud as cow call as they could, and they all hurt it. And then here they came and they started across and then I peek

over the top in like fifty yards. One of the cows pops up and I'm like, crap, knocking arrow, like we're like, they're right here on our lap, and uh we did. And then her bowl ended up pushing one of the cows like right by us, and literally ran jumped over the rock that we're behind. We had like feet like four or five ft in the air above us, and it was the craziest thing I've ever seen. They run by us, she's chasing this cow. She stops like

forty yards behind us. He runs back, and in the meantime, I look back in front of me, and I look up and there's a cow standing there like three ft from the end of my arrow, and I was like, oh boy, we're done. And uh he runs back up stops at seven yards and it's spooked. The cow in front of me, thank God, because otherwise I would have been stuck. And he puts his head down, grabs a piece of grass, lifts his head. She just drew a bow back and he just stood there looking at her.

Shot him and then he turned runs down back where they came from, takes the cows and the calf with them, and it's one of those things the big bulls like bogle and the whole time coming in. But I totally space because I was more focused on her, you know, shooting that bowl, her first bowl at the bow, and I jumped up, we hugged, and we held and I was like watching blood is pouring out of her bowl.

And I looked at like a hundred yards and the big bulls standing there, and his head's just swiveling all over the place, and I was like, oh no, And

I was like, we just blew this. So I did like three quick cow calls just to calm everything down, and he lost his mind and just ran started bugle and I ran right into thirteen yards and came out on the other side of the bush and I shot him and he just ran down, and both the elk fell over at the same time, like literally mind fell over and hers fell over at the same time, and uh, dude, it was pretty It was pretty wild, but just seeing her get her first one with the bow. And we

had put in so much work. I mean, we had bowls all over the place and I actually let on my first morning. Um, I let like a three bowl walk at twenty eight yards and I was like, man, did I do the right thing? You know, just that's a big bowl that a lot of people want to kill, and uh, well it turns out I did, And at least I got this pole that I had watched all summer and we just made the right game plan and

and we got him. So yeah, it was it was fun. Yeah, that's pretty cool to double and and see it all come together like that. So um, no, congrats on your guys ELK season. Now we're gonna dive in to the white tail hunting, um and some of the questions that I have, So when you set up an area, you know, we we talked earlier from when of the listener questions like, you know, how do you set up an area? And then the next thing you're gonna obviously have to do

is go scout it. Um, you're not gonna want to jump or invest a bunch of time into an area that that maybe doesn't you know, have deer in it, or won't have deer in it. So when do you start scouting? How do you scout and and kind of how do you put that together? You know, because a lot of these deer in the in the thick timber, you can't necessarily glass them up. Um, you know, so I'm assuming you're going, you know, trail cameras, Um, are

you put them on the ridge? Is kind of let us know how you scout and when you start scouting, so at least those deer going to be in the area, um, you know when you start hunting. Yeah, for sure. So I have a lot of the areas that we've we hunt now, um, and it was obviously easier when I lived in Washington to scout it than it is now.

But um, if it was a brand new area that we've never been to, we would go over during the summer and just like litter the place with trail cameras, like just trying to find these trails, um, and then find these benches and whatnot, and you'll find what are called like a community scrape and they'll actually hit this scrape all year around and just kind of market and it'll be bigger than like a normal scrape that will

happen during the rut. Um it'll be something you know, three or four ft across, sometimes bigger and if you hike around, you'll find these. And so we would start setting up trail cameras on these and these deer will hit these things, you know, kind of all season, especially during the rut and stuff too, and uh, then other

other ruts are other scrapes will show up. Um. But then we obviously are looking for rubs and you know that type of thing and trying to see, you know, is there you know, scrape lines, rub lines like stuff that you know these deer will make. And if you go early in the spring before it greens up, um, you know that stuff stands out like you know, a sort thumbs. So that's what we would do when we

first started, um, you know, really scouting new areas. And then after we learned, you know, kind of where the deer were. Um. You know, obviously there's a lot of area where there is no deer and so um, you know, it's kind of trial and air run the cameras, see what's on them, find these spots, and then once we did, then you know, it's easy to go back and then kind of expand on those core areas and like dive down in a little bit and get a little deeper

um and then really start tearing it apart. But yeah, you're right. So a lot of these big bucks white tail in general, they don't they don't travel, uh, you know, out and clear cuts and much and especially when we hunt, like there just isn't any like it's all big, thick timber. And so if you don't run cameras, I mean, you're you're shooting yourself in the foot. Like you'll never find

these deer. And what's wild is like they have a you know, general rifle season, muddle muzzle order season, everything else that goes along before we even get a chance to hunt. And if those animals, if people did their research and knew like what was truly running around, man, they'd probably do a lot better with a rifle. But we we've had a lot of years where you know, these bucks, we have them year after year after year, and I'm just shocked that they make it through rifle season.

But it's like these people just they don't hunt the way that we do. They don't know those deer even around and you know during October. I mean those big deer just so nocturnal that I mean you're never going to shoot one and you can't sneak up on them unless you're in a tree stand. So yeah, so so I know, you know, we get to follow along, you know, as you share your pick cheers and stuff. Um, so you're scouting. Let's say you got your trail cameras up

and you know big Bucks are in the area. It sounds like you're hunting, you know, mid to late November. If those deer there in November, like they're gonna be there, uh come the rut? Like there are you saying they're going to be in that same area year round? Or do they move into certain areas you know, prior to that rut and then once they're there, you know, say late October early November, you're just banking on them eventually coming back by or you know, being in that area. Yeah.

So some of the areas that we that we hunt, those deer literally lived there year round. Like I've figured out where they live and I've just like these particular draws always hold big Bucks and these deer will live in there. I mean, they just they do not come out of there. Um. And so I do have a few areas that I set up uh stands in cameras and whatnot on that the deer will move in when

the rut starts. And it's just kind of one of those things like you know elk for example, Like over the years, you'll figure out and they just rut in a certain area. And I do have a few spots that I found where these deer will come down in they rut, and that is the only time you're ever gonna see like that particular buck um versus you know. I mean he could live five miles away over the

backside of a mountain range like and you know, show up. Um. I have had deer literally eight nine miles away, and they will come over to mountain ranges drainages like along ways and show up on a camera all of a sudden, you know, during the rut, like they'll start cruising. Um. But you can kind of find their core home, like their core area if they're there during the summer where

I'm hunting. At least these deer will be there like all season, and you know, give or take, they might move you know, a half mile a mile, but a lot of the big ones they literally will live within like a one mile square area like all year and won't move. Got So that's a great, great point on scouting and figuring out. So the next the next decision

I'm assuming that has to be made. You know, once you do you're scouting, is where are you going to set up your tree stand or where are you gonna set up your ground blind and some of those things that will now affect us. So we've established that we've got you know, a target buck or some target bucks in your area. Um, you're looking at where you're gonna set your stand up? Are you setting your stand up

right at your camera? Are you looking at travel corridors you know within that area, or where you think maybe the does are going to travel more so than that buck? Um? And then the other thing I'm assuming is wind. Um, we've got our prevailing wind, which is you know, and then you've got your thermals, and then you've got you know, that time of year, you've got storm systems and stuff coming in. Like give us a little bit on how

you're gonna establish where you're setting your stand? And then is it based on you know how how it relates to travel corridors and in the wind direction. Yeah, so we what we do generally, you know, we're hunting them in the mountains, so it's a lot different than farm fields where you'll get that prevailing wind generally, and you'll know when a storm system comes in what the wind is gonna do. Um. Kind of ironically, we we look at like LK. Cunting the way that we hunt and

set our stands for white tails. Um. The wind is usually pulling down in the morning, pretty hard down these draws, and so we'll try to come in from the bottom and get our stuff set up where we can access it with the wind in our face. Generally the deer will be above us. Um, kind of know where they're hanging out. Obviously we'll bumps some when we're coming in it sometimes, but it's just part of part of it. Um. But generally we try to come in from the bottom

and get the wind right. And also when we're leaving in the evening, that way we go out and the wind is obviously it's pulling down, but the deer above us, so we're walking out with the wind you know, in our favor going out, Um, it's at our back, but we're not bumping deer. Um. So that's kind of how what we look at when we're trying to access an area. Obviously, I have like six eight different stands set up in different areas. Some some places I might have two at

the same so I can come in a different way. Um, if a storm rolls in or something and it changes the thermals or it gets kind of weird throughout the day, I might you know, get down and move over to another spot. Um. So that's that's kind of the kicker. But then what I'm looking for and in this, you know, is it's kind of ironic in a way. Like the does will come in and walk a certain trail, and you think that, like all the deer are gonna walk

that same trail. Um, But I've found the little er bucks, like you're one and a half to like three and a half maybe and four and a half year old deer, they'll kind of follow the same trails as the does.

But if you start getting in that four and a half five and a half plus aged deer, he will literally try to get the wind right and he'll come in and walk his own trail, Like twenty yards below like the main trail that like all the other deer take and just so he can smell him as he's walking along in It's it's weird, like I've watched enough big bucks over the years, and they never come in where you think they're gonna They always are glow or high,

like wherever the wind is. Uh, you know, during the day obviously they'll go be above it because the thermals. But um, I'll try to figure out where he's coming from and where I think I'm gonna have my best opportunity for a shooting lane, and I'll put my stand back where I can access it, but where he's more likely to come out of, like a thick patch of brush or something. Um, and you know where he's gonna

end up walking on his own trail. Um. And I and what I'll do, I'll literally like go look at big buck tracks and I'll backtrack them and try to figure out, like where that buck is betting. Obviously, I try to do it preseason, so if I bump him, you know, he'll hopefully be back in there before like

the time of year when I'm gonna hunt him. Um. But I've learned so much after I've actually like harvest you know, harvest shot at deer or whatever I've I've like learned so much those next few days after and I'll like go back to my other stands and backtrack the big deer and figure out where they were coming from.

And that just takes years of of learning. But once you figure that out, um, you know, it's like then I'll be able to move in there the next year and you know, set my stand up and boom, like you'll that's where you you'll know where you want to put it. So it's kind of a combination of certain things.

But look at you know, whatever way the wind's going. Generally, if you know, if you're in the timber and it's pulling down or whatnot, in that time of year, it's so cold out that the wind seems to be pulling downhill a lot, and the deer will he'll be below that trail like twenty yards every time. So it's like I'll set up off that trail a little bit, you know, twenty yards below it or so, and then if he

comes on that trail at twenty, I'm shooting there. If he hits the main trail, I'm shooting forty and you know that's it is what it is. Now we're gonna move on to maybe one of the most contentious topics when it comes to white tail deer hunting. And you've got people on both ends of the spectrum. But I'm just looking for your own opinion on scent. Um. The thrubles aren't always gonna work the way you want, The

wind isn't always gonna do what you want. So what's your opinion on scent and how much precaution do you take when dealing with that? So are we talking like scent control or are we talking like deer sense? I would say like scent control? What how how important is it? You know, we'll talk about attractings and stuff here in a little bit, but just your own scent and making sure that you know you're not spooking you know, deer

out of the area. Yeah, for sure. So that we kind of have mixed opinions on that, and I've you know, heard so many different opinions. But I'm the type of guy like I use a lot of like dead down wind and those scent killers and whatnot. Um, I try to shower every night and you know, use all the everything I can I'll spray my clothes down, my boots down every single night. Um. The thing is, I found, you know, we've we've kind of adopted the ground blind game here over the last few years, uh five six

years actually, since my sister started hunting with us. And it's it's weird being on the ground in a blind. You can get away with so much more than you can when you're sitting in a stand. I love sitting in a stand because I have way more shooting opportunity. When you're in the ground blind, You've only got like one little window or two to shoot out of, so

the deer has to cross where you where you're shooting. Um. But man, I feel like we've got away with like murders sitting in that in that stand or in the ground blind. Um, you know. And so my dad, you know, and sister there, they'll spray down every now and then and you know, a couple of days type thing and whatnot. I do it every single night. I don't know if

it truly makes a difference. If it doesn't. All I know is is that I've had days where I get winded, and you know, it's like I don't know if it's because you know the winds are horrible and just swirling too much. Those seem to be the days when I get winded. Um, But I feel my thing is whether the stuff works or not. I mean, it's on the market, there's so much of it, and something has to work, and I feel like, in my opinion, like it has

to be better than not doing anything. So I'm like, if it just gives me that extra second to fool that deer like not be smelled, and I get the shot, I'm all for it. Um. The other kicker is like my stands. I set my tree stands like usually, and I found it about twenty two ft the thermals change like the wind. The wind will actually change. I used to set them all around that twenty ftmark, and I would get winded. Once I went higher, then I stopped getting winded as much and so and seen, so I don't.

I mean, you know, it's like there's definitely a gap right there in that twenty two foot range twenty ft where the wind will change and you can get away with so much more. I still use my scent control. I haven't ever stopped since day one. Um. I think you know, it's kind of one of those things like maybe a superstitious thing. I'm like, man, if I do this like it's gonna bring me good luck. Um, but I feel like it works and that I guess it's

kind of my my own head, so I'll keep doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. It's what people are comfortable with and what they feel work. So. UM, Now in Washington, I know the rules have changed over the last few years. Um, but we're allowed to use you know, baits and small small quantity. And then also you were mentioned like deer attractants or since what's your opinion on on bates and attractants? Um, you know how you use them? And then um, you know the the

advantages and disadvantages of bits and attractings. Yeah. So, I mean, dude, we we've done every thing, and like you know, we have stands. I mean we set up every year and we'll put bait out and whatnot because we're allowed to bait in Washington, and it kind of varies. You know where we're at, and you know what we put out and what we do. I have other stands where I literally just hunt scrapes and you know, redlines and that type of thing, but generally big scrapes, and I'll put

out you know, um like buck fever synthetics. Like they have their their scrape Uh I forgot exactly the name of would have to dig it out, but it's uh. They have a like rut scent and then they have a mock scrape scent. And I'll build my own scrapes or if I have scrapes that I found over the years, and I'll dump some of that in it. And I love hunting that way because I feel like the true

big bucks. I'll be honest, like I mean, yes, we've killed a few over bait, but like the true big ones don't come to the bait, like they will stay outside of it, and they'll stop at thirty forty yards and like look over there, and if there's not a dough there. They they're spooky man like, it's it's not the same if you're hunting a scrape. He's a lot more like he's still super cautious, and they're so spooky

compared to like a mule deer or an elk. But they'll come in and it's like almost like their guards down a little bit because they're like, oh, hey, another dear is peed here and made his own scrape, rubbed these limbs, done whatever, and I'm just leaving my scent.

And so he's definitely less cautious. And so it's like if they come in and they're coming in the bait man, it's like they're on edge and it is hard to shoot them like they I mean, it's like you better not be making a noise or or have your clothes make a noise or anything. I've had bucks come in and literally like lose their minds, spook just at me trying to draw my bow back and I barely even moved and so, um, it's hard. But does the bait bring in year, yes, Like I mean, if you know

guys over there, they'll throw alfalfa. Some people throw out corn, that type of thing. Um. The thing that I will caution, like if you ever use corn or something, depending where you're hunting, bears will find it in the early part in November. And if you're going to scare every gear out of the country because the barrel come in and live on it and eat it. Um, So you kind of got to be careful with that. Delfalfa is probably the better way to go. Um. But obviously you can't

put that much out in Washington. I think it's two five gallon buckets still and um, which is not much. And uh, the does if you can get the dose hanging around eating that, like obviously a big Buck's going to come in. But I could count on one hand over the years or two my dad's sister and I and how many we've actually got, like the big ones like eating the bait like if they just don't. So I tend to follow my pinch my pinch points in the scrapes and then I'll use those primarily as my

main hunting opportunity. Yeah, I've I've been talking to Randy Milligan, my buddy there in Kansas, and it's the same thing. Like those big bucks, they're not interested in eating the bait pile or the feeder or anything like that. And so a lot of his um, you know, those bucks are coming in checking for does. But then they're gonna stay you know, a hundred yards off a down wind

of that, and they're just really checking on does. They have no desire to go eat you know, out of out of any sort of bait or you know, artificial food source or anything like that. So it sounds like it's real similar even in farm country compared to you know, high mountain white tails. Those big bucks are just at a different level and they're all interested in nixposing themselves, you know, the wide opener or going to a spot

like that. Alright, So we touched on this this question A little bit that I had for is kind of when to hunt white tails. We kind of picked you know, November. But are there elements or or things that affect that, Like, are there is there a weather pattern or you know a type of weather that just gets you super stoked to get up in the stand? Um you know, like like what's your favorite time to hunt white tail? Like a two inch dusting a snow, you know, twelve inches

a new snow, Like what's that ultimate? Um, you know day you just need to be in the stand. Yeah, So my my favorite, absolute favorite day is to be sitting there the day before, like and if I know a storm system is coming of any sort, so it's like could be you know, like tomorrow it's gonna just pour down rain or a snow storm is coming in um Man, the night before can be really good because those animals know a storm is coming, so they'll get

up and start moving. But then the day to storm hits and my like personal favorite is to be sitting in a stand mid day and excuse me as mid day and we'll have that storm roll in. If a storm rolls in at any point like during that day and all of a sudden it gets you know, it could be blowing, could be nasty, starts snowing. The big

one is if it starts snowing. And I man, I've had so many days where I'm sitting there and it's just a cool, calm day, know, and then all of a sudden it'll the weather starts changing and snowflakes start falling out of the sky. Those big bucks get on their feet and they like every time. I mean, I would say most of the big ones I've killed has been in that weather condition, Like the weather changes and

boom here they come. Now that being said, if there's no storm coming in, but it's gonna get cold or there's snow on the ground, my next kind of favorite time would be like six to eight, ten and twelve inches of snow and as cold as it can get, like just clear skies. But let the weather the temperatures drop hopefully I mean we've been sitting over there some years and it's negative two degrees and we sit there

for ten hours a day, don't get out. But the deer move all day, like they will be roaming around. They're coming in because it's cold, they are checking those, they're looking for those, and you will have so much activity the colder it gets, and so that's probably my second favorite time. Um, but the storm rolling in is like the ultimate. I mean, if you get a day like that, you're you're going to kill a big one, gotcha. Yeah, that's that's Uh, that's kind of what I was thinking.

You know, similar to other hunting you know, pre pre system, you know, during the system and then you know what I what I don't like on at least what I've hunted is like the same weather for you know, ten days in a row, like you want some you know, you want weather patterns that are changing in order to you know, get the deer moving. Um So that makes a ton of sense. So now we're gonna get into

more of what I would consider. You know, what I would think is the funnest part is calling to the deer, you know, audibly, you know, attracting a deer to your location, and UM, I'm gonna take a little bit to kind of just announce that that new deer call line we've got. We've got UM a full category. We've got three different

grunt calls coming out. UM. We've got a bleat adjustable bleat, and then we've also got a full and distress call for you know, calling in some of those mealies that are on lockdown and some of the other stuff we do. So we've got a Alpha grunner, which is the deepest sounding UM grant we've got. We've got a Beta, which is more of a UM full acrylic UH. I would call it like a duck style UM deer call. And then we've got a Omega, which is a hybrid acrylic

plastic call um that's fully adjustable. We've got a d O a bleat UM and then in that fall in distress, we're excited to release those finally um on on October tenth. But let's jump into your kind of your your your white tailed deer calling strategy kind of the calls you use, your approach. You know, whether you're randomly blowing on a call every you know, fifteen minutes, or if you do it at certain times. Um. And then how you go

about you know, bringing those dear dear location through calls. Yeah, for sure. So one thing, if it's earlier in the season, uh, you know that kind of early to mid November time frame, we do a lot of rattling and grunting, um you know, and like kind of tending grunts you know type thing or you know, something to kind of like hey, you know, maybe this bucks tending a dough already, and try to pick their interests. Um. And so that the rattling works

really good. Early it's like the bucks are you know, they're fighting, they're trying to sabash their dominance. And we've we've had some really good luck rattling in some big deer um you know that that come in that time of year, and obviously a ton of small deer too that come in and they're just trying to figure out what where the party's at. Um. And so that works

really good then. Um. But then as kind of things progress into the right a little farther, a little heavier, hotter, well, what we tend to do is we'll still do maybe a rattle here and there, like let them know like, hey, maybe there's some bucks fighting over here like one of these does you know is in estris like she's hot um,

and and try to pick their interest still. But well, what I like to do is the early morning, Like first thing right when I get to stand right at daylight, um is maybe do like a couple just know buck grunts, you know, like hey, you know I'm over here or attending grunt type style and let them know. And then the other thing I'll do is like kind of that doe in estis, you know, bleat type thing um, and just let them know like hey, maybe there's you know,

a dover here. And so I'll do like a doe bleat and then I'll do like two three four grunts right after that and let them know that you know, hey, you know something's going on over here, and see if obviously there's got to be a deer close enough to hear it. Um. And that's a tough part about where we hunt in the mountains. It's it's those deer living those jaws, but it deadends to sounds so much we're like a farm field, it will kind of carry further,

so the deer has to be somewhat close. But we'll go in do those bleats and then I'll shut up for you know, a while, and then I might do like one or two sessions like fifteen minutes apart, right in the morning, and then I might not do anything until like ten eleven o'clock, like mid day. And what we found, honestly, like a lot of the big bucks

in the morning. Even sometimes they'll be laying down at daylight already because they've read it all night, and then tended to mid day is when we've seen most of our big deer over the years, and those big bucks get curious, they're up, they've they've rested up in the morning and they're like, hey, I'm gonna start cruising again. And you know, tend to. We always we joke about it.

People get out of their stands and go back to their chuck eat, launch to take a nap whatever, and you know, we're in the woods and boom out walks the big guy. So I might do some more calling maybe, you know, it depends on you know, what's going on in what phase of the rut. I'm man, maybe a rattle or something, but do another dog leader too, and uh, you know, some grunts or maybe it's just some grunts type of thing like two three grunts or like act

like they're tending a dough, that type of thing. And man, I've had some really good luck mid day and doing that, and I've literally had bucks like run in and it's they'll all of a sudden, they're coming. They're looking trying to figure out where the noise came from. And then of course you know it's too late usually and where I set my stands and I guess this kind of

goes back to the stand location thing. I try to set my stand in a spot where I can get a shot, but a spot that it's super thick for the deer, so he'll run in and feel like he's hid and you can get you're looking down on him so you can see him and get away with a lot, and he'll stand there looking around like maybe out in an opening, trying to see that dough, but you're on the edge of the thick cover and then get make

your move perfect. Now I have to ask a question on when you're grunning, are you trying to be a dominant buck or are you trying to be you know, like, uh, it sounds like a slightly younger buck, Like what's your strategy there? Do you want to let that big buck know that maybe a smaller bucks running does or in the area. Uh, can you give us a little input on on what type of buck you're trying to sound like? Yeah, for sure. So in this kind a it's two sided.

I guess it depends. If it's earlier in the season and I'm rattling and whatnot, I try to sound like a big buck, and I just you know, it's like, hey, come get me, you know, like I'm trying to establish my dominance and let's let's duke it out um as it goes on. And you know, I've done both and I've had results with both. But then at other times I'm like, man, like that I scared the deer off, Like I'm not sure, maybe they went into a lockdown

phase and like disappeared. And here I'm thinking I scared him off, but he's really not. Um, he's just on lockdown. But I tend to do like a little bit try to sound like a little bit of a younger buck

that's on a dough um that way. You know, it's like he thinks that, oh, hey, here's this younger like buck that's over here running my does I'm gonna go over there and I'm gonna kill him type of thing, and you know we're gonna I'm taking that dough back, and so I've always tried to play that strategy a little bit is like, don't sound like the biggest, most dominant buck in the area. The thing that that I

run into. I'm not fortunate enough to hunt these big you know, farm fields and these big you know ranches and stuff back in the Midwest where there's literally hundreds of deer on these ranches. We're hunting deer that there's like, you know, maybe two three bucks and you know, it's like one big buck and two three like smaller you know, immature bucks, and then like two or three doughs, and like that's it in my whole, like one of my stands,

like that'll be it. So I don't want to go in there sounding like a big another big dominant buck usually because there might only be one big dominant buck there and he knows, like he'll be like, nope, these other deer that are here, there's two or three little guys, and you know, I know who you are, don't you know, And a big one rolls in and then I just I don't know. I feel like sometimes like they get spooked by that because they they're aware that there's not

tons of deer in the area. Now if I had an area where there was ten big bucks, like sure, maybe so that I always try to play that younger buck and like, you know, let him know that, hey, you know, one of the little guys in here running them that that makes a ton of sense and you know, a little bit relatable to elk, even though the one downside with elk is you just can't, you know, keep up with the volume. So we always try to sound as absolutely big as we can and still end up

falling short of a real elk. But that makes a ton of sense on you know, especially in an area where the deer kind of have their pecking order figured out, they kind of know what's there and what's around. Like unless uh, you know, an outside buck just showed up in the area, he's probably starting to question like, hey, I I haven't heard you before, I know you're not in the area. Um So, so it makes a ton

of sense. I really appreciate having you on here, John, um you know, sharing sharing some of your white tail tips and tactics and and too close if you had one ti to maybe help a new white tail hunter, somebody who wants to go try, you know, mountain white

tail hunting. Um, what would that tip be, oh Man, one tip, I would say my my single biggest tip that I could give someone is days in the stand, Like just spend the time out there, find like literally look, find those travel corridors, find scrapes, and just get in the stand and sit. It's like it's a waiting game. And I've had too many guys go over and they spend two days I didn't see a deer. And there's days that I go by and I never see a deer.

But you just gotta keep sitting there, don't get out of your stand, sit all ten hours daylight till dark, and just put in the time, like something will happen. That's a great tip. Um. You know, time is always the number one you no matter what type of hunting, you just putting time in the field. You know something something's gonna happen, whether it's good or bad. But you know, putting yourself out there, you know, punching that I'm clock as much as possible as always, you know, one of

the best tips. So I really appreciate having you on here. John. Congrats to you and Kylie on your guys elk season and good luck and everything you're moving forward. And I think it sounds like we may join up and and do my Washington elk hunt here in the next couple of weeks together. So looking forward to spending some time with you and and appreciate you being on here. Absolutely, I appreciate you having me on. I can't wait to see you uh put your tag on a giant bowl,

I hope. So thanks a lot, John, take care, Thanks ma'am. M