You are back here part to interview with Dirt Durham, my good buddy marketing manager here for Phelps game calls, great elk caller. Uh. And then, even more important than just being a great elk caller out in the woods, he knows what to do when they're out there. So the last episode we answer some questions like how long will he work a bowl before changing tactics? How do we determine whether to be aggressive or slow play? Um, we talk on you know, what calls he uses, wild hunting? Um.
You know when set up calling. You want to be account involved in some of those things. To go back and check the old episode out. Now we're gonna get into the new stuff. Um, once again, we're gonna take some US your questions, some listener questions here right off the bat. If you have questions of your own, feel free to email us at ct the at Phelps game calls Dot Com. So the first question I have for you here, Dirk, from a listener. When should you be
quiet versus? When can you get away with making noise? Well in the Elk Woods? Um. So we'll kind of go back to that. Locating a bowl right, so we've heard this bowl reply three or four times. We decided we want to get to that bowl. He's across the Canyon. Okay, Um, I'm gonna travel of the way there to that bowl with without much regard to noise. You know, we're not gonna talk out loud by of course, but we're gonna walk, you know, as quickly as we can to get to
cover the distance. But we may be kicking rocks every now and then, we may be breaking the branch, we may be swishing through the brush. It's okay because we're still at quite a distance and we're not worrying about those those elk hearing that. You know. Um, if there's, if I will say though, if there's some open ground, you know, we want to make sure we try to
avoid walking through great big openings, especially quickly. Um, just because, let's say, on one side of the Canyon has lots of trees where the bull is at, and then you're on the side that's very sparse, sparsely timbered and there's a lot of openings. Should avoid those openings because a lot of times when you're in those trees, you can
look out across and see those open hillsides. So you don't want to get kind of caught walking across there, but I I don't, I don't try to be quiet until I get to that last little bit when I start I looking at my phone and looking at my on x, on my my little uh way point. I put where I thought that bowl was when I started getting about two yards from that bowl. Now I'M gonna start slowing down, start slowing down and start being a lot quieter because I don't want to know, let him
know I'm coming right. I want to get up close, I want to get everything to my advantage. I want to have I want to have the wind right, I want to have trained features in my advantage. Um. That way I can get as close as I can, almost danger close, Um, quietly that last ten of the set up times. So Um. And then after that, you know, depending on how the conversation with the Bulls goes, Um
will determine my next move. Whether I make a bunch of noise like an elk walking through the brush or if I stay quiet just it just kind of depends on how the game goes after that. Yeah, I'm I'm real similar Um a lot of times, and maybe we take this from our our buddies, that that do more
spot in stock. But in certain situations, especially if a bowl is, you know, sounding off on on his location, UM, without us ever happen to make a peep and and and you know, according to that bowl, we don't exist. I'll do the same thing, very very quiet, all the way to toward dangerously close. You know, get the wind right and we kind of you know, phrase that or
dubbed as kind of that shock and awe. Um, you know, you didn't make a noise, he doesn't even know you exist and the first noise he hears is, you know, either going to be a challenge Bagle or a cow that's right on top of him. Um. So in those
instances I will be very, very quiet. Um, you know a funny story, you know, or just what my dad always said, is, you know, they grew up as rifle hunters, you know, and they get on their their fancy white, you know, new balance shoes, maybe staying green from mowing the grass, and you know, the Dad's shoes and my dad's, my dad and all of his brothers, they hunted in white new balances because rifle hunting, especially here in western Washington,
was a game of being silent. You know, woodsmanship was of the utmost importance. You didn't make a noise. Your goal there was to sneak in on a herd of Elk bedded down or in the timber feeding, Um, you know. And you can only do that by being quiet. And I can remember being a young kid or, you know, just getting the Elk Hunt and my dad looked at me and like you aren't cut out to do this type of hunting. You know, I made too much noise,
too much racket. Of course I was a kid back then, but it's kind of a segue into when your archial hunting, you you can get away with a lot more noise. Um, you know, if you're announcing your location, one thing that naturally is going to come with an elk being there is noise of snapping sticks. Now these, you know, seven eight pound animals maybe the quietest thing on the earth at times, but the majority of the time they will
make noise. They're gonna step on sticks, they don't care about that stuff because they're just doing what normal elk would do. And let's make noise, Um, as they come in and and elk have very keen, you know, hearing. They can a good example last year I was in New Mexico. Prior to Steve showing up on our our elk hunt, I had watched the herd of elk all morning, watch them do their thing and then let them kind of feed up to their bedding, which they were feeding
down in some low meadows. They would feed up into the timber Um to some thicker chunks of juniper and whatnot where they could bed. I thought I had given this herd enough ground. Never made a peep. I was just scouting. I didn't want them to even though I was there, but I needed to kind of get past their location. Um, I let them get up there. What I assumed I could still make eye contact four yards and I dropped down into the camp nion to walk
past their location. Um, that bowl came charging down the hill and I didn't figure it out why or how come until afterwards. He ran to my location and I hit behind a tree just so I didn't get picked up. But he was ripping bugles at a very, very close distance, like leftist cows. Came down close and and this is just how good they're hearing is. I later figured out he could hear my feet like going through the brush.
You know, through the grass, the tall, knee high grass that was in that meadow, and literally I called him in with the swishing of my feet and basically pushing grass out of the way as I walked quickly down
the road. Um. So, with that said, like, noise isn't always bad, like elk will pick up on natural noise that would have been there whether it was me walking through there or real elk, and so I'm not always super sensitive to how much noise I'm making unless, like we said earlier, Um, we're trying to do that shock and all. We really don't want them to know we're even there and we're kind of playing on that. Temperament of that bowl is probably fired up and he's gonna
come in, you know, to check us out. Second question from the listeners. When will you finally give up on a bowl and go find another one? Um there again. You know, situation dependent, Um man. Sometimes it's really tempting to to give up on a bowl, you know, especially if you've, let's say, you've been dogging them for quite
a while. If we rewind it twenty twenty and we were hunting New Mexico, Jason, uh, you and I and John Gabriel were hunting together and man, we were chasing bugles all mooring and it just got really frustrating and are we ever going to catch these things? You know, we and it was really hard to like pinpoint which direction to even walk. And Man, it was almost it was very disheartening and you almost feel like, man, I don't know if we should keep following these stupid beetles.
I mean, what are we doing? And we just kind of doubled down on it. You said that. You said let's just let's just keep going over here and I think they're over here, and so we did and we caught up with them right and uh, and it worked out great because you shot that really beautiful six point. But had we give up to a little, a little too soon, like, you know, if we'd have got frustrated like and I just don't know where these things are at,
or I can't, I can't keep up or whatever. If we would, if we'd throw on the throw in the towel too early, then we would have never, would have never got that opportunity. Um. And another, another scenario. Cameraman Dustin and I in we were hunting and from first light we were on a bowlt that was bugling. We got down in the in the thick stuff with him and mix it up and he'd come in and eatly,
become in and neatly be come in and leave. And finally, Um, as the morning progressed, it was getting to be about time to where he should probably get out of there and go find a place to lay down right so that bowl and his cows. Next thing you know, we could hear him moving off up, up, up the mountain. So there again, looking at the the topographical map on my phone, I'm looking. I'm like, where are those things going?
You know, Um, we were on kind of a west facing slope, but over on the east facing slope there was a lot of big deep, uh mature timber pockets that face north and we all know they elk like to bed on a north facing slope. Why? Because it's a lot cooler, there's a lot more shade. A lot of times there's little little wallows or little seeps or some water. It's just a cooler place to be in the daytime and they're not gonna have to get up in the middle of the day and change their bed.
You know, especially if it's big dark timber. They can stay there without having to reposition. So looking at the on X, determining that okay, well, there's finger age after finger age after fingers. Are About five of them in a row with a real nice north face with heavy timber on it. We're just gonna start checking those boxes. We're gonna go to each one, call into it and what we find those out. So we let them get up,
get up and over the mountain. We had an hour or two before it was the middle of the day, you know, at twelve o'clock. So dusty and I took a break, had her lunch, Cooler feet, rested up and when the wind got right. You know now the thermals are very, very good on that next on that next side of the hillside there. Then that's when we made her move. And so we kind of thought because we'd heard the Bulls Bugle, this bull bugle the day before
from the other side of the Canyon. So I had a mark on on x there too, like okay, well, we'll just come across the canyon and and or we'll just go over the hill where they betted yesterday and get them. Well, they weren't in that bed. So we didn't give up, you know, and you know me, twenty years ago would have been like, well, I don't know where they went. I don't have a GPS and I've never been here, so I don't know. They disappeared. They must not want a bugle. Well, we just looked at
the next spot. I was like, okay, well, we walk a quarter mile to the next pocket. Walk the quarter not mile the next pocket. Nothing. Walk the quarter mile in the next pocket. So like in the fourth pocket, we got close to it, I called Bam, he answers. We found them and within thirty minutes we had that bull called in and you know, there's too much brush in the way and Pearl Dusty didn't get a shot,
but it worked out great. So I feel like, you know, unless you've really spooked him, Um, just keep on them, just keep on him until either you kill them or they go to someplace. Maybe you you physically can't follow, or maybe you run out of daylight or whatever the case might be. Maybe, but don't, don't give up. I feel like people give up a way too soon. Sometimes use the tools you have, whether it's the maps or just maybe a strong set of legs. You know, just
just keep going. Yeah, and I'M gonna elaborate on that a little bit and stretch the question. So giving up on a bowl as far as like you know that morning's calling versus. One of the things I get to hear around here a lot is people have their their favorite little spot that they hunt right there. They're going to this spot day after day, hunting this specific bowl day after day. You know around here are roosevelts are very,
very patentable. They're gonna do the same thing. Well, we get stories, or we get to hear the stories of Man. You know, what do I do? I've been in here five days. I've got them to Bugle in the same spot and you know I'm over exaggerating, but they go to the same spot in the road, they get the bull to answer from there. They go down the same trail every day. And so first is my first thing is change up your your your tactic. Right, don't do the same thing because you you know, I don't know
the exact what the definition of. What is it? IDIOCRACY is like doing the same thing over and over insanity. I probably butchered that whole thing. Insanity. They're not insanity. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, and so that's kind of where I goes, like, well, have you tried something different? Have you tried from approaching the opposite side or the opposite you know, Crick bottom or drainage, whatever it may be. But you get my point.
Like you've got your butt whooped there five or six days in a row, like switch it up, because it's obviously those elk want to be there. It's obviously they're calling uh, like, go switch something up. And then at some point there are situations where that elk goes to a betting area that's so secured, and what I mean so secure is it's got swirling winds, it's got inapproachable side, whatever it may be. If I feel that my chances of killing this bowl are less than on any given time,
I'm gonna switch my plan. I'm gonna go find different elk. Like, don't get stuck trying to kill the same elk, you know, day after day, you know, set up after set up. If it's just get if you're getting your butt kicked because you've only got a certain amount of days in September, you've only got so many days of the Rut. In my opinion, you're better off pulling the plug on. Yeah, we also say don't leave elk to go find elk, but in these certain instances, like I'm, I'm pulling up,
you know, I'm pulling anchor and I'm going somewhere else. Um, if I'm if I'm getting beat that many times in a row, mass some great information. Uh, I feel like people getting that Rut, you know. Um, I've heard. I've heard that same story a lot. You know, man, I've been watching this big bully. I hunted him for eight days and you know what, what could I have done
to call him in? And honestly, your first encounter with an elk is your best to kill it, Um, and your second encounter the odds in your favor go way down. You know, the odds tip towards the elk every time you have that encounter, especially days, day and day out, every day in a row. Um. So I'm I'm with you, Jason.
If all hunted area one day, if we don't kill and there, UM, but we had pretty decent luck a lot of times, I'll walk right away from that and go hunt in a different spot, you know, and I may go twenty miles away to a different spot completely, Um, and I'll let those elks set, especially if I'm not worried about somebody else going in there to hunt them. Uh, and then I'll come back in two or three days. Um. A lot can change in those those two or three days.
You know, maybe maybe there's been some fights happened, maybe there's been a change in hierarchy of the dominance, you know, between bulls. Maybe there's there's cows that have all been bred. The last couple of cows got bread and now there's bulls are just about ready to leave and go find some greener pastures somewhere. You know there's so many unknowns there. But Um, but hunting them over and over and over and day to day to day, they learn your tricks.
You know. Just because you're not there, you leave. Just because you're not there there doesn't mean you haven't left remnants of your of your presence. You know, we all, we all take take a leak in the and they go to the bathroom in the woods or or, you know, just walking through the woods touching things and stuff. We leave behind scent at nighttime with elk move around you know, a lot more freely. That they'll find evidence of our present.
So if we continue to just go in there day after day and stink it up, it's just it's it makes it really hard to kill, to kill one of those bulls. And then, you know, back to the point you made about Um. You know, you go out to the same landing, if you bugle off in the same spot every day, man elk gets so conditioned. I've got this. I got this hunting spot in Idaho, this big, nasty, Gnarly Deep Canyon, and there's not been a year that
I've stopped there. You know, hike over there, you get out on the point in Bugle to where I had and didn't hear a bull except for this one year and I'm like man, the timing is perfect, it's cold, it's just, man, there's why isn't there not some a bowl or bowl multiple bulls bugling down in there? And I get to look at it and there's lots of boot tracks. Every every Tom, Dick and Harry has passed through there has stopped here and called. So I'm like, Huh, well,
I I think there's bulls in here. So I backtracked, walked down for opped about five feet in elevation and got a little bit of different angle into this big canyon and started calling again and it was like night and day. I am answered immediately and I'm and I'm in just a rough fest Bugle and match with this bowl on a matter of fifteen minutes right. So changing
your position needs everything, because those elt get conditioned. They heard, they've heard, and you know this was towards into September. They've heard every Tom, Dick and Harry from September, one till Ben Bugle from that sweet spot, you know, and probably some even come in that people don't even know about and catch their wind or hear them or see them or something. So if you can mix it up and just try some different places, like if you know there's elk in there, don't use the same the same
routes to access that. Don't use the same bugle points. Um, get creative and get in there. Those are all great points, Dirk. And so once again, if any of the listeners have any questions for me or my guests, please submit them at sea e T D at Phelps game calls Dot Com and we'll do our best to get them answered. All right in today's discussion, Dirk. And we could probably spend the next twenty podcast talking on just this one subject is setting up. I have full confidence in the
majority of hunters. Some of them I would still question, but the majority of hunters can go out there and one Lok elk, either with glasses, either with location bigles or shoot just seeing him across the road or finding tracks, whatever it may be. But once again, you know, kind of the theme of this podcast is we get to here and listen to a lot of people, Um, you know, whether it's at sportsman shows or whether it's through emails or,
you know, social media message, whatever it may be. But I think maybe if we were to keep it tally, this is probably the most Um, common theme or the common scenario that Weye, we're we're at a sportsman show. You've already can see the person's got their phone out right, they're getting ready to show us a video of what happened to him last year. They they get all ready to show us this video and they call a bull in the ninety yards or eight yards, but they just
can't get a shot. Um and and we already kind of know the outcome. Right, WE'RE gonna get to see a video, we're gonna get to see a flash of an elk, where this bull gets to, or whatever it may be. No shot, and then I'm already thinking of well, why did you set up where you did? You know there was a brush line ninety yards ahead of you, right where it held up, or you know a lot of times, and I've even did it on our own videos,
and and the more I think back to it. Um, we'll we'll call a bulling and you get to see maybe it's eye guards and about half of its nose and its eyes up right. Because, guess what, that bull got to a spot he expected to be able to see you calling to him and he holds up there and he's not coming any farther. Um. So we're gonna spend a lot of time here talking with Dirk about set up and all the things that are associated with it. Um. You know, as you're going over there, what you're thinking about,
what you're looking at? Terrain Feature Wise, uh, you, vegetation wise, wind, what what the wind is gonna be doing in an hour? Um, how to use that wind? And so we're just gonna jump right into it. Talk about setting up. Um, in my opinion, it's the most important thing. Um. That's gonna allow us to get a shot at an elk and and get a good shot. So, UM, dirt. Let's say we've let's go through the whole thing. Let's back this all the way up to the beginning. I know we've
talked about bits and pieces of this. We've located a bowl, you know, we we glass them, let's say we glass them across. We're able to get great information. Um, you know, it's eight o'clock in the morning, there's there's a herd bowl with a couple of satellites and maybe ten cows and they're going towards a bedding area. And you can you know, what's your process? Are you, you know, trying to figure out where they're going to bed? What? What
everything you're looking at? And then what is your you know, how are you going to formulate a plan? And I know this isn't exactly setting up, this all leads to the setup which, in my opinion, um, matters. Um, yes, I think of all those things whenever, whenever I hear that bold going on, I'm thinking about okay, where, where are they trying to get to? where? where's their bed going to be? Um, where are they trying to get you know what. Are they moving quickly or are they lingering?
Some days they linger around for a few hours in the morning. Some days, you know a lot of times when it's a full moon, um, that within an hour of first light they're they're in their bedroom. You know, they make their way, they're quick Um. So how they're moving, this definitely gonna dictate on and how we're gonna set up. And and sometimes, Um, if they're moving pretty fast, then I'm I'm not even thinking of calling in the help. I'm just trying to maintain and follow and keep track
of them. Right, I'M gonna I'M gonna gonna stay with them as best I can and just and keep tabs on them as they climb the mountain or come off the mountain, depending on where they're going to bed versus where they fed the night before. Um. And you know you can if they're on the move and you're like, okay,
let's get set up here. Um, a lot of times you can stand there and waste twenty, thirty minutes and those elk will completely move out of the county if if you're trying to set up um when they're in transition. So I don't typically try to set up. But then them times, unless I actually have a bowl coming my way, then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna I'M gonna set go ahead and set up now. But if if the ELK are moving towards their bedding area, I'm just trying to
keep tabs, trying to keep up. Maybe, if the terrain is is gentle enough, I'm gonna try to push my way up towards him hard to where he feels crowded and maybe turns back and wants to come and fight. Um, I've had I've had to work both ways. You know, sometimes you just kind of dog push them and dog them all the way towards your betting area and they'll turn around and come back before they even hit the betting areas. But sometimes they just they just just keep
on going and they go lay down for a while. So, UM, every scenario is a little bit different, but you just have to kind of know when to set up and when not to. And I would say definitely when they're on transition and they're climbing the mountain, you should be climbing the mountain instead of setting up and try to
get a shot. For sure. And if we were to and we're not gonna have good numbers, but would you say you're more likely to call a bulling that's already heading your way versus, you know, one thing, if possible, and it's not always possible, I hate to try to call a bulling back to the opposite direction he's wanting to travel or follow his cows. It seems like it becomes exponentially hard or maybe even into like single digit success.
Versus if I can somehow muster up the energy or come up with a plan to get in front of them and let them continue on the way that they're wanting to go, my odds seem to be way higher. Have you found that? You know, same, same thing to hold true, not trying to get them to change what
they're doing. Yeah, I almost feel like if they've already pushed through that area, that's almost like scorched earth right, that it's really hard to get him to come backtrack and come back to that unless maybe the you know, the herds been split. Let's say half of his cows are up on the hill and there's half still down below. Um, yeah, he may come back down to gather up those cows again, or those cows just may and be like, oh, we gotta go to Daddy, and they'll just run up the hill.
But more times than not, Um, it's super hard to get them to backtrack. But if they're coming towards you, if they're already coming towards you, yeah, definitely that'd be a good time to try to call one in. Uh, and that might be a time to think about all right, where are we gonna set up? Because they are moving towards US anyway. Um, we're on their natural path, Um, on their national course. Maybe we can set up and call him in here. Yeah, great, great points there, and
I'm just gonna give a little teeny tip there. We talked about early on spotting that bowl across, looking at the bull's behavior. You know, if I've got a bowl, that's if I'M gonna try to call a herd bull in, and the disparity of the Bulls and the pecking order isn't so spread out that that bowls happen. The work is but off in the morning and chase every satellite bowl away like I'm pumped to go try to call
that herd bull in. Versus, when the disparity gets big, it seems like, and there's a giant herd bowl or very mature herd bowl and he doesn't even really give a crap about the other satellite bowls because they're not willing to get close like that one. I'm not so
much looking forward to go call in. So you know, by by looking at the temperament and how active a herd bull is and how much work he has to do to keep satellites gives me a little bit of you know, that's in the back of my mind as I go try to call these bulls in, is just how aggressive he is and a lot of it has to do with like that pecking order and how you know, the disparity from top to bottom. Um. So keep that in mind, you know, as you're on your way to
setting up, if you can get that information. You know a lot of times if you're if you just get a bugle back or you're not able to lay eyes on everything, you can't get that. But Um, you know, big important part to some of the strategy that we're gonna Start with and knowing the bowl that you're you're dealing with. So let's say we we've come up with a plan. Um, we've we've located elk, the first thing we usually do is try to figure out can we
approach now? Should we approach now, or we're gonna leave them until a different time? Um. You know, a lot of that has to do with the amount of time it's gonna take to get over there, to get to a good set up, Um, what the wind is gonna be doing. Um, you know, do we need to go set up on the different side? And so maybe we'll we'll look at this as like a nighttime approach. Um.
How do you make that decision? Whether you're gonna go now, whether you're gonna wait for the wind to switch, whether you're maybe gonna go get them, you know, in the evening? Like what all goes into that decision for you? Um, yeah, a lot of it just depends on, you know, what time of day is it, what is the wind doing? Like you said, how much time do we have left in the day? Is this? Is this the last hour of light? Is this mid day? Is this morning? Um? But the one thing I will you know, I will
say is like the wind or usually dictates everything. Um, typically, um. And and there's you know, we kind of talked about it earlier. We touched on it earlier quite a bit. About. You know, when do you give up on a bowl? I may not give up on a bowl because the wind is horrible and wrong, but I will wait in the wings and press press pause on the game just until that wind gets good and and you have to
like you can't. You can be tricked. You can sit there for two hours and think, okay, the wind is good now and you get up and walk a hunter yards and then the wind switches again. I like to have it, you know, maintain, you know, fifteen minutes or so good steady wind, be like, okay, the wind is definitely switched and it's gonna Probably gonna stay like this for a while. Now it's time to make a move. Well, this we made all these decisions right and we're getting
over to where we want to set up. Um, we've ideally got the wind in our face. We're gonna have a steady wind. What is your checklist for a good set up? Um, you know, go through everything as far as like, are you setting up in front of trees? Are you standing? Um, what's the terrain and vegetation look like? Are you trying to call a bowl uphill, downhill, like, go through everything that's on your checklist. For us and and what kind of goes into those decisions. Well, ideally
when I'm going for the setup. So I've traveled of the distance. Now I'm in that ten percent of the distance left to the bowl. So I'm hoping I'm within a hundred hundred fifty yards from the bowl. Um that last little bit, you know, before I think I'm danger close. I'm looking, I'm assessing the terrain right I really want to position and myself on the same topographical line as that bowl where I think he is. That way, all
he has to do is come side hill to me. Um, I've called Bulls Uphill, I've called Bulls Downhill and I've called both side Hill. But the good thing about having them come side hill to you is typically you know your thermals are going to blow up or down. So you've waited to the winds good. But let's say a big cloud comes over and cools the cools the hillside and all of a sudden you get a swirl of wind.
It automatically just changes directions and starts blowing back downhill. Um, if you're not on that same contour as the bowl, um, that could be a that could be where you get fouled right Um. So I really love that. That way I've got more of a cross wind I'm hunting in rather than having a strong one in my face. A strong one in your face is good, but sometimes, Um, that means you have to try to call the bull
up or down. Um. And if I had my druthers, if I had rather call one up or down, I definitely had rather call one up to me then down. It seems like more often than not, whenever I'm trying to get a bull to come downhill to me, it's just it's a tougher game. They have. They have the
advantage of being able to see you. Um, they do have momentum and gravity on their side, but for whatever reason, I think, I think it's that whole site thing, Um, when they're when they're above you, a lot of times it's a little tougher to get them to break free, and for me it's at least it's been a little tougher for him to get to break free. But I've had him come climb up the hill right to me, Um,
a lot more often than we're coming down. But ideally, though, I really want to try to get that bull on that same level as me Um before I try to call him in, because then, in case there's a snaffoo with the wind and we still we're probably still good. God. Are you in for a brush or behind brush, next to a tree, kneeling, standing? What's your preferred Um, as far as before you make your first call, like how are you set up? And then, Um, you know, do you one of the things you know, do you do?
You clean out brush on your feet so you're silent, like go through, you know, in front of Brush, behind brush. Where are you physically at during this setup? Right, well, before I get to the spot where I'm actually physically gonna stand, I've I'm assessing, you know, okay, I've I've got my I've got my contour line right. I'm on the same Contrat as this bowl. But now I'm looking, I'm picking out shooting lanes right and I'm looking for train brakes and looking for uh Um, topography breaks and
I'm looking for Um shooting lanes. So if I can, if I got like five really good shooting lanes, like man, I can shoot the seventy here and I can shoot the fifty over here and I can shoot shoot the sixty in this one. You know I can. I can shoot out a really long distance and about five different
shooting lanes. Man, I'm in the wrong spot. I am set up in the wrong spot because that bowl, whenever they get to that that edge break, whether it's a the edge of the trees, edge of the brush meadow edge Um, or maybe they've climbed up a hill or they come over a ridge, that's where they're going to hang up, the first place that they can stand to see where those calls are coming from. That's usually where they're going to hang up. So I want to make sure if they come in and hang up, it's going
to be close right. So if I'm solo calling, I want to make my calls and then move up close to where I think they're going to hang up. And if I'm with with another hunter, which is really great, which is makes it a lot nicer most of the time, is I want my shooter to be set up at that at that Um terrain break or that topography break, you know, or that Ridge just that way. The first place that that bowl is going to set up that that that hunter will have a good chance to shoot
at them. So then second okay, once I've identified that okay, I've got I've got an okay shooting lane. Can shoot twenty yards through this one. Um, I've got kind of a crappy when I can shoot five yards. And and then there was one a little bit better. I can shoot about ten yards. You know, that's ideal. You know, a bowl is going to have to come in really close to see me or he's gonna have to come out by the by the shooter to take a look over to where the collars at. So that's that's what
you want. You don't want to have a whole ton of shooting lines. You want to have a you know, pretty tight and then I'm gonna look down at my feet. Right, okay, I may have to stand here for quite a while. I may stand in this spot for five minutes, I may stand in this spot for forty minutes. Um. So I'M gonna I'M gonna look down at my feet. Pine needles are there are a bunch of pine needles under my feet. Sticks. Um, am I standing in brush? I want my back up to a big tree or something
that's not gonna show my outline. Let's say I'm gonna blend into like there's a great big Bush and I kind of blend into that. Um, I always turn around and look behind me make sure there's not a whole bunch of daylight. You know, I don't want to be silhouetted with a big daylight background. I want something to break up my outline, whether it be a tree or a big brush pile. I want to be in front of that tree or brush pile. I'm gonna let my cameo do my work. For the guys who don't wear camel,
that's okay too, because you're wearing earth tones typically. Right, YOU'RE gonna stand in front of something and let it break up your outline and then you're gonna stand there very emotionalless. You'RE NOT gonna stand there Um swatting flies or swating, swatting mosquitoes or, you know, pointing this way, you're pointing that way, you're scratching your nose, you know, if you if you have to scratch or something, that's okay. You just have to move really slow. You know, slow
movements there. Those are hard to pick off in the woods, versus, you know, a white hand moving around, Um, you know, swatting flies around. So, Um, you want to stand there emotionless. I don't want any twigs, any branches, anything under my feet. And I and a lot of times I look around. It's like, okay, if the bull is gonna come in to my left and I can't quite get a shot, maybe I need to be able to take two or
three sidesteps over there to get a shot. I want to make sure there's that's clear, there's no branches or there's no twigs in that in that way I can just move take two side steps quickly, quietly and then and then get him right. But if if you stand in like a big, a big bunch of branches where, Um, any movement is going to make a noise, that's that's
gonna tip off that bowl. Another thing I've I've found over the years that's really, really fouled me up is setting up with a like a big windfall in front of me that has long branches or one that's kind of like it's not all the way on the ground, let's say it's, you know, Waiste, high off the ground,
and then there's branches. Man, I get away from them, those windfalls, and not set up by them, because Um, every time bulls will walk up on the other side of that windfall, and I think that might be by design. If they know they put a windfall in between them and their rival. They know that rival can't just sabotage him right. Um, they feel like that's a maybe that's like a safety net um or maybe even a predator. Like a Predator wouldn't be able to have, you know,
come through that windfall very easily. So every every time there's a windfall in the way, they always walked up behind it. So if I see a windfall, I get away from it and, uh, redetermine where I want to set up. I don't kneel. Um, the only time I would kneel is if I would be able to have if there was too many branches at normal standing level and if I had to kneel and I had like really, really good shots because there were no branches low, I might kneel then, but that would be the only time.
I typically don't kneel. I've been I've in my in my young days, I kneeled a few times and every time I would get, you know, the bull would come in where I didn't think he was gonna come, or I would kneel for so long my feet would fall asleep. And I get so uncomfortable. Then I was moving around and shifting around and then a bullet come in and see me moving around. So I I like to stand Um more often than not, unless there's you know, unless you know, the foliage of the trees or whatever makes
me makes me kneel. Yeah, I was gonna add that tip. Um as you're setting up, you know, trying to minimize movement, which can be an oversight. But if you're if you're looking the wrong direction, I always like to set up with my left shoulder, you know, at least facing like the extreme right, right, you know, the right, as far right as I expect that bowl to come, because there's
a right handed shooter. I know I can lean. You know, I can turn my body very, very easily to the counterclockwise direction, but I can only go about ten degrees further in the right and so being able to get a shot. I like to always like over emphasize and that just it seems like it's way overkilled, but it's just trying to limit any movement. Is that bull comes in in an unexpected spot. You know, we do our best to guess, but you just never really know where
that bull is gonna end up. And so by being on your feet with your shoulder facing him, Um, it gives me the ability to shoot pretty well, you know, degrees to my left and be pretty natural, already in the right position, um, for shooting a bow and everything. So it's just little, teeny pieces that we've picked up. And then I also wanted to add in Um. You know, as as you're setting up, like Dirk said, you you can't. I made the mistakes setting up in brush and you've
got Arrow hanging out in front of your bow. You can't move. You can't move without making Um. You know no no, you know any noise. And so we've just found up, you know, set in front, let the brush break up your outline, Um, and and go with that. I do want to touch on wind a little bit, Um, and this comes from a lot of personal experience. Um, a lot of you know, calling Elkin, we always talk about keeping your nose into the wind right, which is great.
It's failed proof. But with that said, there's a law out of Um, conservativeness built in with that wind being directly, you know, on your nose. I'm just taking a guess at it's probably not a t degrees, but that elk would have to circle you a long way is probably to get that wind right. You know they can probably go for sure ninety degrees, they can be off to your left and they're probably gonna have to go another forty five degrees behind you to finally pick your wind up.
What this led to a lot, especially as a solo color, was the opportunity given for a shot was typically frontal. Um I'm not going to, you know, debate on the podcast whether you know what you're gonna do with frontals, but what happened is, you know, naturally an elk wants to smell whatever is calling to them. They're trying to wind check. You know, you as the caller. So as you go to set up, I would rather have that wind, let's say, hit my right cheekbone or my right cheek,
and almost so. Now we're not playing. The wind is perfect. The winds no longer on our nose, but we've set up with a consistent enough wind that you can predict, uh more accurately which direction you expect that bowl to go. So if the wind, let's say, is hitting our right cheek or our right ear, somewhere in between there, we can now Um, guess with pretty damn good certainty that that bowl is going to get to within sixty, seventy, maybe eight yards and start to do a circle to
our left. Um, which is a great tip for especially when you're doing two person calling. Um. We use that in the Mexico back in where you were calling, I went forward and to the left and the wind was blowing up the hill and so it kind of drove
that elk into our position at a more broadside shot. Versus, you know, if I would have gotten perfect line with Dirk Um on the direction you were calling that bowl into me, I would have been presented with the frontal and when, you know, as he turned and came up that hill. Um. So. So, use the wind a little bit as a steering wheel and don't necessarily use it
to be perfect all the time. There's there's some leadway in there, UM, and by by using a little bit of those angles you can, you can get yourself presented with a little bit better broadside shot. That happened to make a tough decision on the frontal shot. Yeah, that's that's great information. Another thing I'll say to like getting set up for the shot is Um as soon as
you like determine that's where you're gonna set up. Knock an Arrow right then, right there, like I'm this is where I'm setting up here, I immediately knock an Arrow. I can take my ranges, I can range everything later, um, but if if a bull all of a sudden just comes in, I don't know how many times. Um, Bulls will unpredictably come in a lot quicker than you may think. If you're not knocked up, it's really hard to get an arrow on your string when a bull stand there
and then get a shot off. So, Um, first thing I do knock up an Arrow and then I cleaned. I cleaned the ground around me after I'm knocked up, and then after that I go ahead and range everything. Settle in. Um, I usually range. That's usually the last thing I do, Um, just because then it's all fresh in my mind too, and I may have to you know, my memory is about as long as my pinky. So as I'm set up there, if I have, you know, time to make a few more movements, you know, I
may range. After I've done everything right, then I may arrange again a little later just to refresh my memory. I want to touch on real quick a lot of times we're doing our own calling for ourselves, Um, but there are times where we're calling for for buddies. Um. We always talk about kind of the fight or flight and being aggressive, especially when you're trying to call a
herd bowl or be within that zone. How far do you want your color back, because, in my opinion, you may be taking your color, which is the threat to that bowl, out of that zone. But you know, how how far do you do you want your color to be back? And why? Um, I like I like my shooter and caller to be within sight distance of each other, Um, especially if, Um, you guys haven't really hunted together much.
Let's say this is the first time you've gone hunting together, or maybe, Um, you're both new hunting and just haven't really hunted with partners or done a lot of calling, uh, and it's really imperative, in my opinion, to be to be within, uh, you know, site distance of each other because, Um, you shoot her, you know they're right on the front line. They may see them some things that you don't see. And if and if he can make a motion to you're like hey, man, stop calling or call more or
back up or move forward. You know, he can kind of he can kind of coach you along too, of what's what's going on up there that you can't see, and vice versa. Let's say maybe, maybe your your shooters hasn't really done much calling of elk or been involved with calling elk. You may want, you know, you're you're the quarterback of the situation, as the color, you may want to move up or you may want to like hand signal, like hey, move up or fall back. Um,
you may want to give him some signals. But if you don't have sight of each other and he's being quiet and all you're doing is calling, and it's really easy to get like spread out and then like man, we're on two different pages here, that the elk is coming and you've you know, your shooter has kind of gone off somewhere else and or wow, we need to
move up now, let's let's go. You know, there's like certain times, Um, when you make that decision like we have to move up and we have to move now, if you don't know where your shooter is, uh, that that's a problem. That poses a very big problem. So I like to keep us, you know, within, within I you know, seeing distance, but I will say there's an exception. So let's say the Bulls hung up and he's raking across the draw or something, or up on top of
the Ridge. He's talking, but he's raking. He's not coming. That's a that's a really great opportunity for for you two to do. Agree to say, okay, shooter, you sneak up, you you go up there, sneak up on that bowl when he's when he's rubbing or raking his antlers on a tree, Um, instead of just sitting there being tight. You know, let's say he's been he's you've been calling for a while. You don't think he's gonna Company further, but he's just standing over there ranking and ranking. Man.
You're crazy not to send your shooter ahead and sneak up while he's preoccupied and let that let that collar stand back there and just, you know, keep him going and let your shooters sneak in for sure. Um. One thing I wanted to add to set up to Um, and this gets a little bit more into calling, but it's it's one of my favorite setups because it's like pulling the wild card out. Is there are just special setups where you've got multiple herds that have come together, Um,
you know, and it's it's kind of that zone. Um, you know, these these elk, and those are those magical setups you can you can set up a hundred times, you know, on the same elk, but you get, you know, similar to we we've talked about a ton that New Mexico set up where there were multiple large herd bowls in one location. Um, those are those magical setups where you just want to be a part of it, you
want to be involved and and be ready. Like you said, that's definitely a situation where you want to have, um, your aero knocked. But I don't I don't really know where to go with this. But there have been multiple times, you know, two thousand and sixteen, Idaho, New Mexico. Um, you know Tyson's Idaho Bowl in two thousand and eighteen.
There are times where, if you can approach the situation be fairly silent and just kind of sneak into these zones, you almost I don't want to say you don't have to do any calling, but you can almost sneak in there and just let the chaos of the situation like work in your advantage. So, uh, you know, it's not necessarily on how to set up, but I guess it's to recognize those opportunities when there's multiple Bulls biggling and
going at each other. You just have to somehow find your way into those situations because it's it's one of those few magic, you know, Magical Times that we get through experience in the Oak Woods and it's usually pretty damn good for somebody trying to Arrow one of these bulls. Yeah, I found myself in that situation last year New Mexico. We heard the bulls from afar and man, we just
moved in, moved in, moved in. I put, I literally put the calls away until we got, you know, we were seeing legs in the under the trees right Um, and if I had it to do over again, I think I would have taken a little different line. You know, Um, from the movement of the elk at that point to where they were then I felt like they were going to keep moving. So we were still right right, directly
behind them. I feel like if I hadn't known they were going to keg up for a little bit on that little knob, I would have kind of I would have pulled off and went um circle, or not above them, but get up on that same the same topographical line, and came in from the side and put myself in a better position. Um, because, you know, again they were above us, they had the side advantage. We can only
get so close without getting picked off. And then we started calling at that point and man, we almost made it happen, but it just didn't quite didn't quite happen. But you and maybe I shouldn't start calling. Maybe I should have just like shut up and just let things unfold too. Because Um, that let's let's face it. I think you know, we love we love calling elk, we love the exhilaration, we love the chase. Um, it's so fun. But the spot and Scott guys probably kill bigger bulls
every year than the guys calling. So that's probably the truth of the matter. So Um, maybe maybe you know, be you know, don't get stuck in in such one mindset. You know, be able to pivot if you need to. Um, if if you think you know this is one of those times to shut up and not call and sneak in, yeah, do it, and if that don't work, then pull the calls out. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's just those are those are places where you just fly on the wall, take it all in and it's it's usually chaos. So
let's say we've got the set up perfect. We've gotten location, you know, the Oak, the bulls a hundred yards away. We've got our set up, we've got the wind right. We're set up thirty to forty yards away from the terrain break. We're set up that same distance from from a brush, you know line. We're not. We've we've cleared out all the hang up locations. Now what we have to do is figure out how we're gonna call Um.
How does your calling change, let's say young satellite versus medium satellite versus a herd bull, and how are you going to kind of finish off this setup with your calling based on what you think you're calling to Um? Yeah, I just try to, you know, as far as the size of the or the sound of my Bugle, I usually try to just match what I'm dealing with, you know. So if the bulls kind of sound mediocre, their beagles aren't Super Nasty, I trying to I try to Bagle
the same way they do. If it's if it's big herd bulls, just blaring everything they got. Then I usually pull out that card to Um, because I've tried both. You know, Um. You know experiment with with with different tactics over the years. So you know, Um, oh well, you know, big Herd Bull, I'm gonna Bugle like a little whimp and then he won't be intimidated so he'll want to come and chase me off. But I feel
like I've had less success with that than anything. I feel like that that bull hears me, he's like, you're kidding me right, you're a joke, you're not gonna do you're you're like a probably a four point Raghorn. I'm the King of the mountain. I'M NOT gonna get be concerned with you. You know, a lot of times I
even had them where they wouldn't even answer me. But Man, when I turned up the heat and turn up the volume and sound really nasty, gets give him some really nasty big bugles, boom it's all of a sudden I'm speaking in their language and they're like Hey, shut up down there. You know, maybe I become a threat at that point and then you kind of get in their
head a little bit. Yeah, we used to hunt Idaho all the time and some of the burns and stuff we would we would locate or spot, you know, satellite bowls that were five yards away from, let's say the main herd herd bowl or the more dominant, uh, you know satellites, and it would just be the smaller satellites, but maybe there was a bowl in there we wanted to call in and and a lot of times we could hurry over there. And one thing usually I'm the
same as you. I've I've killed a ton of, you know, very young satellite bowls way back in the day and we use just straight herd bowl tactics on all of that. You know, I think they're they're fairly curious. It's almost like they know, like there they go and check things out for the herd bowl or they just come and check you out anyways. Um, so we've used that with great success on satellite bowls. But Um, if we know we're targeting a satellite bowl, that's the one time I
may go over there do all the same stuff. We're still setting up the same making sure winds right, everything's good, but we may just lay on a ton of heavy cow calling. Um, you know, those satellite bowls may not be interested in coming over and run into a bowl. They may, you know, if that's the case, they just
gonna keep following the herd. Um. So we will switch, you know, on young satellite even I've even found that the more mature satellite bowls that are just looking for an opportunity to cow even easier to call in, sometimes in those very young bulls because they're just wanting to stay with the herd, with their mom whatever it may be. Where that more mature satellite bowl he's just looking for
his chance to breed. And so that will be the one instance where I do go away from kind of our aggressive, you know, get close to the herd and just kind of pour on a lot of cal calling and get those satellite bowls to come into our location. And, like I said, we were in burns a lot of this, so we were able to see like the more we cal called, the faster they kind of ran or scoot it over to our location. Um. So that's that's the one time where I seem to change change up my strategy.
But I know what I'm dealing with. I know exactly what I've got and uh, you know, and and but other than that I'm the same as you're going and getting close, being fairly aggressive. Um, and and, like I said, I've I've got enough the proofs in the pudding that being aggressive and calling the herd bowls will will turn up a whole lot of, you know, a whole lot of satellite bowls. Yeah, no, I like it. And one
thing to note to on that. Like it's been my experience, and maybe you could could uh chime in here too, but Um, a lot of times when bulls come into cal call's that that last little bit, that last final approach before they come in. You know, sometimes we'll just come running right in, but but a lot of times they'll that, they'll break off and then they'll dip and
try to get that wind at the last little bit. So, knowing that, if you have, let's say there's you got two or three buddies with you, you know, Um, make sure you set up with one guy or gal down when, you know, forty fifty yards Um, they may feel like they're not in the in the in the game at all, but if you're just cal calling, a lot of times that's that's deadly, because that elks gonna go down low.
That that that young bull is gonna want to see if they're that is actually a cow that's in heat, or maybe to see if there's another bowl there that hasn't been bugling. You know, he's gonna send check that make sure he doesn't get up to come up there and get his butt looked. Yeah, we've seen the same thing where they'll they'll circle, like I said you typically, you know there's been a few that haven't because we've
played the wind too perfect. But typically every elk we call in Um aside from one, has always tried to go down wind and check wind as soon as possible on whatever is calling to them. So, yeah, they're gonna dip and dive Um and a lot of times one of the downside to calling in with just cow calls is, especially if you can't see in a burn, you don't really know what's coming, how fast they're they're coming in,
if they're coming in at all. Right, you you maybe had heard a satellite vehicle or you spotted them and you can try to call them in the timber. You're really in the dark, like maybe I'm sitting here. You're
you're not paying them much as much attention. You're moving more than you should, because you have no idea if something's coming, because a lot of times when you're you're laying on heavy cow calls to a satellite bowl, they just won't make a peep necessarily, Um, which is for me, you know, being Um, you know, very impatient, it's tough for me to sit there. So yeah, cow calling is tough.
They will split and Um, you know, on those sort of situations you're gonna have to probably give it thirty to forty five minutes, you know, before moving, just because you're not going to typically get it spots. Yeah, and there's been times too, you know whether I have been mugle into bowls or or Calcolon and they've been pretty reactive and and you you sit down and wait that hour or something. Maybe you decide you want to take a little nap, little nappy nap. Um, you'd be careful.
There's there have been times you wake up from your nap and there's a bowl stand there or there busting off because they walk in and senior land on the ground. So Um, you know, sometimes it just takes them a while to get there. You just never know, especially in that really thick country. You just you don't know. What's coming. Yeah, great tips and hopefully you know, just by putting a little bit of thought in your setup, you know, looking at your shooting lanes, looking at where you're at in
relation to terrain breaks and vegetation. When we say that you can really boil down terrain breaks and vegetation breaks too. When can that elk expect to see your calling location, that elk that's calling to it? When can it see it and when is it going to stop and reevaluate the situation? Um, that's what you're really looking at and then by you know your you know, different calling strategies. Hopefully, you know by setting up, we'll bring you more success
this year. Dirt. Give us one more tip to kind of close out today's discussion to help you know, elk hunters out there that are maybe struggling or just need a good tip heading into this year. Um, we kind of touched on a little bit earlier. But, you know, don't give up. It's it's super easy to kind of give up on a bowl. Like you know, they've they've moved out of the area. You think, Um, and just
don't give up. Or you know, sometimes three or four days of getting your teeth kicked in from bowls that are just you know, Um, they're smarter than you, which is most of them for me. And don't don't give up. After a lot of hardship, it seems like, Um, once you kind of hit rock bottom, that's usually when things kind of turned around. So expect that. Expect to have
some highs, but have a lot more lows. But but know that it will come back around and they'll give up and go home, because if you go home and it's uh, your September vacation, you're just gonna end up painting the House or doing shoulders, mowing the lawn something. It's better to stay in the woods and and uh, and dig in a little deeper and a little harder and be like, okay, I know this is, this is, this sucks. Maybe we need to just dig in and stay at this. Now it's gonna get good, because it's
been so crappy so far. Yeah, and and to add on to your point, Um, you know most, most good elk hunters or elk hunters that are successful every year. You know they're resilient, they're not going to give up and a lot of them can draw from past experience. You know it may be tough if you've never found success late in the hunt, um, but those of us that have, you realize that it may have been a hunt where you've heard no vehicles. It may have been a hunt up to that point that you've had no
colon's under a hundred yards. But we've all been there and like well, we just killed the best all of our life, where we just had the greatest experience on day eight of of at ten day hunt, you know, and it was going so horrible until then. So it may be tough to draw from that if you haven't been there, but trust us, Um, we've had, you know, guys that are supposedly supposed to know what they're doing,
like me and Dirk. We've had these situations play out where we're just like man, are we ever gonna be able to even call an elkin too? You know, the next thing you know is you're packing out a bowl and you know, having a good time and just like that the hunt switches. So be resilient, don't give up. You know, one more thing. I'll throwing their stand on track. It's easy, like to get distracted. Um, here a few
years ago it was the last day of season. It was the middle of the day, middle of the late afternoon actually, and uh, I hadn't heard an elk eagle yet that day and I'm like man, I am getting desperate. The last day. I've been having a terrible year season and I'm driving along on my truck relocating the area and I look out and there's this bear and this Berry Patch just stand there looking at me and I
stopped and he just stand there staring at me. I'm like, I'M gonna shoot that bear, and then I kind of slapped myself back into reality. Is like, I'm not bear hunting. Okay, I could have shot that bear, definitely, but my ulcount would have been over at that point right because I'd have been taken care of that bear. I would have got a bear for the year. Great, cool, but in my mind elk are greater than bears, especially in elk season. So I'M gonna go ahead and say well, I'll see
you later, Yogi bear. I'll come back another day for you. Um. But Anyway, I stayed on stand, on point and I end up calling a bull the last literally the last fifteen minutes of shooting light on the last day. Notched my tag. Had I messed with that bear, I would not. I can guarantee you I would not have been in that position, the exact spot, called that bull, and I would have been I would have been behind the gun. So Um, stay focused down track. Yeah, great tip, Dirk Um.
Good luck to everybody out there and thanks for joining us, Dirk, and good luck to you. Thanks. We'll see you next time.