Ep. 17: So You Want To Talk Elk with Dirk Durham

today to day? Oh good, I got more time to pack. Yeah, we're getting close. So, just like any other Cutting the Distance episode, we're gonna take a few questions from the listeners. If you have any questions of your own, make sure to reach out to us at ct D at Phelps game Calls dot com. So we're gonna jump into the first user question or use your question listener question, how long will you work a bowl before changing tactics? Um? I think it's kind of different on every single one

of them. Um, I get this gut feeling, and I think the gut feeling I have is just from lots of reps in the Elk Woods. So for new hunters, you know, it's kind of hard to know and hard to gauge that. But but usually UM, as I'm working in bowl, if things aren't happening and I need to move up, I need to get closer than some something

inside me says, let's go. But UM, if if you want to break that down a little bit and evaluate it, I would say, when things start slowing down, Let's say you've been called into this bowl and things are escalating good, he's getting warm, he's getting wound up, he's coming closer, and then things kind of slow down and he quits

calling so much. You know, maybe the frequency of his calling, or maybe the intensitive his calls just you know, have has he's taken it down a notch, like he's he's starting a second guess, maybe his ability to fight um or steal the ladies from you if you will, UM. And it's usually at that time I'm gonna switch things up,

change things up. UM. A lot of times I'll just if if things start slowing down and he's kind of locked up, and if he's not to you know, if if he's still a hundred two hundred yards out, UM, I'm moving and I'm on the move right, Um, I'm gonna move quickly. I'm I'm at that point. I'm not probably gonna try to be really quiet. I want him to hear me coming. I want him to hear hear me popp and brush. I want him to think, oh,

that bull is coming in. And sometimes just breaking that, um, you know, walking fifty yards breaking a lot of brush, that that'll get that will peak his interest again and that will kind of kick things up. Um maybe not. Maybe I'll have to almost get right on top of that that bowl before you know, he he gets gets going again. It's kind of a flying line if if you get too aggressive, and this has happened before too, sometimes they clam up and then they're just on a

they're on a mission. They're coming right to you. And by being too aggressive, I've I've been caught with my pants down, you know, I think, oh, I need to move up, and I walk about fifty yards and there he is standing there looking at me. So it it is a fine line you gotta walk. But I guess it's back to that gut feeling, like after you've done it enough times, you started having these little gut femals feelings and like okay, we need to go or let's

just stay put for bit. Yeah. One one of the times I remember specifically, um, you know, when we were in Colorado, we had kind of got in a in a lock up with a bowl that just would not budge. I think he maybe was there for what minutes straight, just us biggling from the same location, him biggling from the same location. And then you know, me and you at the same time, like we started looking at each

other like all right, something out of the box. And that's when you started to do the old we I whiz bang um, you know, and you started as the caller started to run back, you know, fifty sixty yards and just breaking all kinds of brush just to change up, you know, the presentation or or the calling that we were giving them. And so you know, it's just you feel like, all right, we've we've thrown everything at him.

We've we've you know, lip bald, we've cow called, we've challenged biggles, we've barked, screamed, we've did everything we can for the last twenty minutes, and just were we can't

give up ground. We can't make up ground. He's not willing to give up any ground, you know, and so then we just you know, changed tactics to something maybe a little bit outside the box, especially like you said, if it's a hundred yards away, but you know, the vegetation or the terrain doesn't allow us to get any closer, Like you're pretty much pinned down. The only thing you can do is, you know, something outside the box like that.

And there's there's just those times where, like you said, it's more of a gut feel like, all right, we've we've played this, they allmate long enough, let's let's change it up. Yeah. Well, you know in that particular scenario, Um, that bowl just he he wasn't gonna come any further without something changing. And we have to as helk callers and hunters, we have to remember that. Um. Sometimes um, we get in our set up and we get real

quiet in our movements. You know, we might do some ranking, but you know, if you've been doing a lot of calling, there's just doesn't seem like there's a lot going on over there in that patch of trees, right, there's not a bunch of thumping around and not a bunch of you know, antler tips going through the trees and stuff. If you listen to you know elk that are that are farting around with their cow, you know bolls farting around with their cows. Then you know they make they

make a lot of noise. So um, it's it's it's adding that extra realism. It's like, okay, they're not coming in. Now, we've got to double down on some some some noises and movement. So, like you said, I ran back. I faded back like a hundred yards and I can continue to call. If anything, I escalated my calling like a bull was following a naughty cow that wanted to get away, or or maybe she was starting to like, oh man, she's an estress. So I was, you know, staying with her.

And then that circle around, break a lot of brush. I threw rocks, you know, made as much noise as I could. But then I come right back up to the to the shooter. But then I kind of faded back again, just just painting that picture in that bull's mind's eye, that man, there's really something going on there. And I was hoping as I faded back again, he'd want to come up and take a sniff, you know, like I'm gonna go and see if I can see something or maybe you know, I'll be able to smell something,

you know, where those elk had been in. Maybe I'll you know, maybe there is a cald that's in Astris and I'm gonna just gonna go fight that other guy. Yea. So those are the kind of things we want to paint in those those bulls mind's eye. Yeah, And I'll add one little, one more little piece to this. Is a lot of times, you know, how long can we

sit there? It's different for if it's in the morning, when those you know, elker wanting to go from feed or travel to to a betting area, versus if it's in the middle of the day, and if that bulls, if we're calling to maybe a betted bull that will answer occasionally, but he's not gonna move anywhere. Like our our tactics are going to be completely different versus you know, time of day, what those elk really want to do. And if we can add some of that you know,

thought process into our decision making. Um. You know, that's what we're doing out in the field. Every situation is different, um, and we're we're making you know, changes on the fly versus you know, if it's a betted bull, I might work it for an hour and a half two hours before I move, Versus if it's early in the morning and something's held up, like, we may be more aggressive because at some point we've seen it. You know, I

say a million times, but we've seen it a lot. Um. You know, that bowl hold up for fifteen or twenty minutes, and then you can almost guarantee the next time you hear him, he's gonna be three or four yards away because he's caught back up to his cows are back up to the herd. That he's a satellite for whatnot. Um, So I think you know, that time of day, what they should be doing, you know, plays into into our tactics.

And uh, you know, I think one thing that that you know needs to be said again is a lot of times we don't set up once on a bowl. You know, we're setting up to three, five, ten times. You know, sometimes on these elk like we'd prefer it and then and there have been set ups that work where you go set up the one time and you're done, But a lot of these early morning you know, if

you're fortunate to be on a bowl. First thing, in the morning or you know, late at night when they're trying to move like a lot of times you are playing you know a little bit of catch up and then you know, setting up multiple times. Yeah, absolutely, I hear it every year from l Conners. They're like, you know, gee whiz, you know, I get into these balls and and I just I call to him and they call back, but they just keep moving off. They just keep moving off. Man,

what am I doing wrong? I must be scaring them away? Um. But the reality of it is, you know, those those elk have their their day mapped out already. They know, well, we've played around all night and fed down here in the meadow or up on the alpine ridge. But now we're in that time of day we need we need to start heading toward our bedding area. And you know, you didn't do anything wrong. Those elk just want to go and get in their bed because they've been up

all night and they want to go lay down. It's in a nice, cool place. It's very secure, and a lot of times those bolts feel a lot more confident in defending those cows once they get in that bedding area because it's there's I think there's a little strategy too, and where a lot of times where these elk bed

you know, it's a very defensible place. And and you know if if you just give up and say, ah, shoot, you know those you don't like my calling, I guess we'll go back and make some breakfast burritos at the camp, then that's a big mistake. You just gotta stay on them. Um, you just kinda gotta dog them for a while. And and sometimes you have to really pay attention to that wind as you're following those elk to their bedding area,

because at some point that wind is gonna switch. Right, typically they're gonna be traveling with that wind in their nose. And as they're let's say they're heading up the mountain to their betting area, they're traveling with that wind in their nose. Um as they approach that betting area. A lot of times now we're getting a lot more sunlight on the hillside, and that's about the time the old

thermals switch. And if you're right behind them and you get caught in that thermal switch and the wind starts blowing up to them, it's a game over deal. So so sometimes you know as that as that time UM gets close. You know, I'm always monitoring, you know, where where's the sunlight hitting the slope? Um. And as we started keep approaching the time where I think the hillside is gonna get warmed up and those thermals are gonna start rising, then I'll break away and and completely spin

off in parallel. You know that maybe a finger ridge away, you know, a hundred or two hundred, three hundred yards away. Just to make sure I keep that wind in my favor, Um, I don't. I don't think that can be um talked about enough. Just obeying that wind to the point that, Um, if it causes I'll cause you to hike in a lot of extra miles in a day, it's it's worth it, because if you if you foul him up with the wind, it's of time. It's over. So you can't take it

for granted. Yeah, we keep dog piling on this um. But one thing that also needs to be said is a lot of times, you know, if you're bugling or even cal calling the cows and the herd. Most of the time, I mean, there have been times where we've called in the entire herd or the cows, but usually you get the attention of that bowl, and he's willing he knows, you know, if the rest of the herd is not not scared or or startled, they'll typically just feed their way along the bed right at a very

slow pace. So he almost feels that he's got know, he's probably got fifteen twenty minutes. A lot of times he can maintain visual on part of his herd, so you can keep his attention for a certain amount of time, but at the point where he knows that he's now got to either see you or go catch back up to his cows is typically all you can hold his

attention for. So that's kind of what I'm always thinking, is like, all right, we've got a limited time, you know, how fast the cows feeding, because that's about when he's gonna leave if he doesn't see us or there's not an altercation. Um. And so that's maybe why I feel like we're a little more aggressive, Like all right, we've we've got him here, but you know, you can only

do what the train vegetation allows. Um. Yeah, there's there's a lot of things that go into how long we'll work a bowl before we're gonna change tactics and and um, you know, we can, we can give our best cookie cutter examples, But at the same time, there's so many other factors out in the woods that play into this. You know, how well can you move? Are there other

bulls biggling? You know, if that herd bowl or satellite bowl, if there's other bulls around, they're gonna be quicker to leave or quicker to catch back up to the herd. All that's gonna play in, UM, and a lot of times you're gonna get stuck in a cat and mouse game UM with them. So we're gonna move on to the second question here. UM, how do you determine whether you're gonna be aggressive or slow play a bowl? Um?

When you first go in you know, we've heard a bugle or you know, how do you break down the situation and decide, you know what your first play is going to be? Um, There's a couple of different things. UM. First off, I like to call to the disposition of the bowl. So if his answer to my calls is super low key and maybe even that money not real interested type of bugle, UM, I'm going to know right away it's like, well, we can't really get aggressive with

this bull, right off the bat. You know, I'm not gonna hit him immediately, close the distance and hit him with a big challenge bagle, because you know that could possibly push him away. He might be like, hey man, what I'm just saying high over here? I don't want to fight anybody, so I want to kind of slow play that bowl and just keep contact. You know, he'll be agle. I'll wait awhile, then I'll be agle wait

a while he'll answer. You know. A lot of times you know this is you know, it seems weird, but you can literally from the time I take my stop watch. So whenever I call on a bowl, I'm trying to slow play. When I call, I'll hit I stopped watch button go, and then I'll let it run. And then whenever he answers again, I'll hit stop. And then I'll look at the time, like, maybe he's only answering every

three minutes. Maybe it's every five minutes um, which seems like an eternity when you're trying to call a bull in so I don't try to push that envelope too much. So it's like, Okay, well he's only answering every five minutes or every three minutes I'm gonna try to keep that cadence. So I'll wait that distance, that that length of time before I call again, and I won't try to escalate. I'll let him escalate, and whenever you're when we're slow plan, I'll let him escalate and it may

take an hour. But but why why would I do that? Why wouldn't I just close the gap? Why wouldn't I just get tight, you know, move up, located him, figure out where he is on the mountain, make my notes on on X, make a make a make a way point on on X, and they just go right to him. Um. Sometimes it's terrain. Maybe maybe it's just a nasty, nasty canyon. Maybe it's the time of day. Maybe it's I'm running low on water and if I go across there that that canyon, I'm gonna have to drink out of the

creek and I'm gonna preate g rria um. And if I don't kill that bulb, then they have a rough week ahead of me. Um. So there's a lot of little little things that kind of come into play. So I've done it. Whenever the terrain has been something that I don't want to navigate, and I can't navigate quickly or without you know, um sacrificing something. So I'll slow play it and I'll just kind of keep pecking at him,

pecking at him. You know, I've done this a few times, and you know, it may take an hour, maybe even two, you know, pecking at him across that canyon. But after an hour or two, I've had it to where all of a sudden, their bugle changes. It just snaps, and it's like instead of that money bugle, it's a more aggressive, full bugle. And when he does that, I know I got him right. It's like, Okay, now he's irritated, so he's escalated. Now I'm going to escalate. So then I escalated,

and usually it takes off pretty fast after that. He'll, you know, next time you hear him, he might be down in the bottom of the creek. Next time you hear him he's up on my side of the of the canyon or draw and it's like, okay, boy, I better get ready here. And so I've been calling at him for an hour from this one spot, so it's time to move. I know he's coming up the hill. Now I need to move forward, change my position because

he thinks I'm up here. Now, I'm gonna a tippy toe down the hill, you know, fifty yards or so and in a straight line towards where that bull is coming. But then I'll get off that straight line a little bit, you know, fifteen yards that way. I'm not directly in his path that way as he comes up, and he's probably gonna hang up around fifty sixty yards to to kind of get up their assess and look to see where I'm at or listen again. Then I'll be in position to take that shot. So, um, that's that's for

a that's for a solo tactic. Um. But let's say that bull is just answer and he sounds like you know, that was a slow place scenario. Let's say that bulls answering really well, he sounds pretty aggressive. Um, he's answering quickly. He's bugled four times in about three minutes. Um, I know I need to go. I need It's time to get aggressive. So I stopped calling. It's time to close

the gap. Hike over there again. I make my mark on on X. Okay, there's a little glade over there and a big rock out cropping and then there's a thick timber patch. Sounds like he's in that timber patch. I make a way point on there and then I start going. It's so invaluable, and some of that really steep,

nasty country, especially if there's a lot of timber. Sometimes you think, I think I'm getting close, and now you've got five yards to go still, So then I push over there and get as close as I can without spooking him off, which is around a hundred hundred and fifty yards away from where I think that bowl is. Yeah, that's that's a great answer, and I'll add to it. I always just default to being aggressive unless you know they're you know, the the one chance where that or

the one instance where the bowl. You know, he doesn't really answer you. He just answers on his own and kind of in his own world. You know, we'll maybe slow play. But um I always default too aggressive unless there's really good reason to do it another way. Um So, once again, if you have questions of your own you want to submit here to me and my guests, please email us at ct D at Phelps game calls dot com. Now, moving into my discussion with Dirk, you know I've got

to help with him a couple of times. UM learned a lot from when we hunt a lot of the you know, similar ways, the similar tactics. But we're gonna kind of dive in a little bit to to the way dirt calls, kind of the scenarios, you know that that that we like to get ourselves into and go from there. So before we get into that, what specific calls do you make the most wild hunting? UM? You know,

this is kind of my own question to you. I've got my own little list, but kind of curious, like you know, you may say I use them all, but I guess stop or stop start at the call you maybe make the most, and then kind of go down the list as far as like what you're gonna use the most in a season. I probably bugle the most out of all the calls in my vocabulary, if you will, UM. And then cal calls, you know, And I don't get

super fancy with cal calls, you know. I know there's a lot of information or a lot of a lot of different takes on what kind of cal calls to make, But I don't get super fancy. I do calf calls, cow calls. I do bagles. Again A lot of times I try to mimic or call to that bull's disposition. So if he has kind of a wimpy sounding voice, I try to give him a wimpy sound voice. Um, if he's got a big jacked up bugle, I try to give him big jacked up bagles. When you say bogle,

are you willing? You're not necessarily saying I'm only gonna send location bagles until the answers. Like you, when you say beagles, it's like whatever, everything and anything's on the table. You know, everything from you know, high high pitch location beagles, the full blown challenge beagles with grunts and chuckles to you lit ball beagles. You're just basically going through and try and everything out until you can get a response. Yeah.

So if I'm just locating, then I'll start out with that like nice high pitch quintessential beautiful uh three note location bugle, you know, the real long, drawn out one. That's where I start um with bugles. Before I even bugle, I'll probably give a few light cal calls and then i'll give a little bit louder cow calls, and if I don't hear anything to that, then I'll rip a big long location bugle, and then I wait, you know,

to three minutes. If I haven't heard anything, calcol a couple of times more, and then I'll do a full bugle where you start at the bottom the bottom end of the of the notes, go all the way to the top back down, and then I'll add in a few chuckles or grunts at the end. Um, and then I wait again, give a couple more cow calls, you know, after about four or five minutes, a couple more cal calls, you know, if you don't hear anything, then then it's time to pull out the big guns, right Um. That's

when I do a lip ball. That's where you buzz your lips and you you use your use your lips buzzing to add that real gravelly type tone to the bugle. Um, and then I give some very aggressive grunts at the end.

And that way, I've got something that appeals to about any bowl there's Over the years, I've had bowls that like to bugle at a certain kind of bugle, whether it's just a long high note with no chuckles or grunts, or if they'll only bugle let me if I chuckle or ground or you've done everything, but until you give them one of those big, nasty lip ball type bugles. Then they don't answer. But when they hear that, they're like, oh, something's going on, must be a cow cow and heat

up there. I'm gonna go ahead and answer, and then now we've got a game to play. Yeah, specific example, running back to shoot, I'm gonna date myself at you know, back two thousand and eleven. I think, um, similar things like we're the sign on the ground showing up. We know they're oak in the area, And I think we do a bad job maybe as educators when we talk

about these location bagles all the time. But in my opinion, the location beagles just whatever the heck, whatever bugle you need to make to get that you know bull to give up his location. Um. But back then I used to go through and you know, location bugle had to be your your pretty three you know three, no high high tone bugle, you know, no no depth to it,

no gravelly you know, growls, no grunts. And I was getting frustrated because, you know, to these bulls were answering, and and then I pulled out what I considered my challenge bagle you know gravelly a lot of growl into it, you know, deep grunts and chuckles and instantly after from the same position, probably trying for a half hour to get something to locate with multiple location bugles. Um, that

challenge beeogle got him to pop off. So that's one thing like nowadays, I don't hesitate to throw everything out there. You know, I'll do the pretty high note beagles. I've actually had a lot of success lately with you kind of mentioned your lacks of daisical money bagles, Like, I'll just bagle to what I consider like a mid range tone and just kind of that it's a real hollow sounding bogle and and sometimes they're more apt to to

um answer answer that bogle versus a challenge. UM. You know, some of the places we've been hunting, I seem to be hearing more bark screams and stuff. So we've been using the entire gamut to to get those bulls to give up their location versus sticking with the the you know, a typical location bogle that isn't necessarily always going to do the trick. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of fisherman in the audience. And if you go up to the stream and you throw in your maps.

Let's say you're lure fishing. You're not, You're not a fly fisherman, or maybe you are a fly fisherman. You throw on one one type of fly or one type of lure. You toss it in there, and you fish that hole for thirty minutes and not and not get a bite. You can literally change lures or change flies and have on the next cast, have a fish on. And I feel it's the same way with Elk bugles. You know, it's you never know what kind of owns

they're gonna bite on. You know, maybe that that money bugle that you refer to, and I know in New Mexico you you played that a lot and you got really good responses from it. You know, maybe that reminds that bowl of some other joker that he messed around with before. I was like, hey, I don't like that guy, and then so he answers um. I don't know what's inside of Elk's mind, but I always feel like sometimes they're a lot like us in in in different ways.

So yeah, and you know, nobody send me hate mail or anything, but you relate it back to you know, turkeys and shot gobbling, and you know, I know it's not the same thing, but it's like I'm willing to do anything just to get that dang thing to give up its location before I dropped, you know, two thousand feet into a canyon, you know, or whatever it may be. We're just trying to get that thing to answer give up its locations so then we can start to put all the pieces together and go set up. Um, so

we we've got a bowl located. Um, you're gonna go get set up. I know we're both known, you know for ruining elk hunting and biggling a way too much and all the stuff that that we do that screws up elk and educates him. But you're ready to call your set up. Let's say you're a hundred yards away from the elk. Are you going to include a caw call initially? Or you're gonna biggle at him? And then how do you play it from there? Do you want

a cow to be involved? You? Um, you know, let's say you've only got one bagle, so you don't really got a good good idea on his temperament, but you're close. Um, well, I always kind of go back and forth whether I want a cow to be painted into the situation or not. So I'm curious to you know here, Um, if you're gonna open up with any cal calls early on in the conversation. I've done a lot of experimentation over the years, and that's every elk I I called to It's it's

basically an experiment. I'm experimenting with what he wants to hear, or what he's going to respond to or how he's gonna respond to it. So if earlier he the bowl has answered two cal calls, you know, when we're during the location process, if he's answered to cal calls, it tells me he's definitely interested in hearing, you know, hearing

from a cow or interested in cows. But if you know before I took in after him, if you know, I waiting, you know, for my three or four good located for him to answer three or four times before I move in to get set up. Um, if he hasn't answered caw calls at all, I know they it's probably not gonna be in my best interest to make cal calls when I get close. UM. A lot of times, like early season, you know, I've had um when bulls are not heard, it up they're still kind of singled

out all across the hillsides there. They'll they'll have their little hidy holes um most most of the time in those scenarios, those bulls won't answer my cow call, but they will abugle so they know. I think they know that it's way too early for a cow to be and heat. I haven't smelled that smell yet, so if I get close, I'm gonna bugle at him because I want him to feel like I'm gonna encroach in his little spot. I want to feel a little bit territory. I'll like, hey, man, get get out of here, this

is my spot. I want to try to appeal to that um. But if he's answered to Calcol's, even if it's early, then I will probably open up the show with a couple of cal calls just to test the waters. And if there's no response from a couple of cal calls, then I'll progress to a bugle um. But keeping in mind what kind of bugles he was biting on before, Like, if he was he liked He's Chuckley went be bugle with a bunch of chuckles, then that's probably what I'm

going to start the show with. Once I get close. I'm not gonna try to knock your socks off with a big blaster if you will. Yeah. Um. And one thing that I I think we need to point out is what we're doing or what the way that nature works if we're not involved. Uh, if you go out and just cal call, I wouldn't be surprised when trying to call an elk and if you response maybe every

time to that cal call. But we need to know whether that's necessarily a herd bowler or so lightbul because you may be able to call that satellite bowl into your location, but if that is a herd bowl that you're trying to calcul too, he's basically just saying, hey, I'm over here, but he's not going to leave his cows to come find some new random cow that just showed up, at least not the majority of the time.

Not bringing up a bunch of you know issues or you know some of the some of the discussions that we you know, all disagree on, but we get a lot of Hey, you know those that biglands all bs. You know, I've always just cal call and they come running right in. But that's great in a certain situation. But was that a satellite bowl, was that a herd bowl.

We're all out there trying to call different things in and so I want to I wanted to point that out that when you're using just cal calls, you've now just really you know, you've just kind of changed the way that that that we're trying to get this to work. We're trying to call a bowl into our location. But the way it works out in nature is if you do calcol, that bowl will respon and then he expects you to walk up to him, right, not necessarily call

him to your location. So I think being a you know, a thinking elk color is always going to be to your benefit. That you're not just gonna be abable to set up on any any given bowl. Um, it really depends on who and what that bull is and how effective you know, just straight calcolls are gonna be. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, and just knowing the herd dynamics in the area you're hunting. Um, there's New Mexico. For instance, last year we saw like hardly any cows, right, there

was virtually no cows on the landscape. Um, we heard more bugles than we saw cows, for sure, Like different bulls. So in theory, you would think, man, calcols are gonna work like a magical flute here. But I didn't really have that happen for me. And a lot of the bulls didn't care at all if I blew a cal call. They weren't that interested. They were all about a bugle um. So you just have to be ready. Don't get stuck

with a predisposition idea. I guess in your head like, oh, you know, people say this or people say that, just you know, experiment whether it play with it, under trying to understand your elk that you're calling to um. And then one other thing to think about Cows A lot of times they don't. They're like women, right, they don't want any competition. You know. You you you have a group of wives out out having cocktails somewhere and uh,

and a couple of husbands stand there. And then if if some new hot little thing walks in, immediately they're on edge right there, like, hey, who's that? We get her out of here, come on, let's go. I think it's time to right. I think cows are a lot like that. They don't like they have their little clique. They knew they know who's who. They don't want any new interlopers in. They're trying to steal their man. That's dangerous territory, comparing your wife and our groups of friends

to a group of cows. But hopefully they won't they won't listen to this one. I know my wife, I think she's winning your shot here in the house. So I'm I'm hoping I'm not a dead man. And again, so my next question for you, um, you know, I would always prefer to see they all that we're gonna go to try to call in like I want to know, you know, even you know, people can talk about horn sized, body size, maturity, you know, dominance is mainly what I'm

looking for. But I want to know how dominant that herd bull is, how many cows he has, you know, or their satellite bowls hanging around like anything that we can get out of visually looking at these elks to our advantage. But one situation I find myself in year after year is you're walking along, maybe above a patch of timber or in a canyon, and you locate a bowl. We don't get all of those cues that we got when we were able to see him across the canyon, right, We now have no idea if a two and a

half year old satellite bowl answered us. We don't have a night. You know, we don't know if it's a five and a half year old satellite, but we don't know if it's a herd bowl with a bunch of satelights around it. All we know, I mean to some effect, I should take that back. A lot of times you can get a little bit from his bugle, but the majority of time you go in a little bit blind, right, because you know, we've called in some great bowls that sound wimpy, and we've had some wimpy bowls, you know,

horn and body wise that have sounded like monsters. So when you get that bigle, like what are your assumptions? Is there a safe play? Do you go with like a default aggressive play? Like you know, what are your assumptions when you hear that bigle? And then how are you going to approach? Well, my my first thought that crosses my head soon as I hear bagles like okay, what's the wind doing? So assess the wind that I then I assessed the topography. What what's it gonna take

for me to get close? To that elk and then as I as I'm thinking all this in my head, then I'm trying to like focus where I've heard him, and then I'm going to try to locate again. But I don't. I guess it's maybe like the way he's answered, the tone, you know, that the way he the Tony's answered in, rather than how it sounds. Maybe he's a squeaker, but man, he sounds like a really mad squeaker, or or he's a big, gravelly, gravelly thing that it doesn't

have any high pitch at all of his voice. Typically, I'm gonna envision mature age class bowl with a very very you know, broken up, worn out bugle. Right, I'm gonna picture that. But um, I'm just gonna kind of back, you know, go default back to that call of that disposition of the bowl, because I've I've had some bowls that sounded wimpy when you first start calling to him to flip the switch, and then now they sound Godzilla, right, So um, it's like almost like they play possum a

little bit sometimes. So um, I just kind of try to assess how they sound. I don't want to try to sound too much bigger and I try to play it by that, but typically like it's a it's an aggressive move though. Once I once I've got them pinpointed, we're gonna get aggressive. We're gonna get close. We're not gonna get now when I say aggressive, we're not gonna say, um, reckless. You know, we're not gonna throw caution to the wind and say, oh, we'll get over there at all costs.

You know, the wind be damned. You know, we're gonna make sure we follow the wind and make sure that we don't make any mistakes as far as that goes, and we want to get close as we can quick as we can. Um closing that gap on one thing.

You know, they're all different. Some bolls. You you follow them from from first light till middle of the day before you ever even get close to them, you know, just because the terrain features or whatever it may be, just the way they're herds moving, you know those New Mexico bowls. Shoot those things and move four miles in the morning and you're just on their heels the whole time, just trying to keep up. Whereas some of the some of the Pacific Northwest stuff where it's big, heavy timber

and stuff. They're not moving quite as far, but you may have to spend half the day climbing across the canyon to them, or maybe they're on your side and you're you can move up quickly. Just every scenario is so different. But you know, I'm just gonna assess what they sound like and then try to tailor my calling to how they sound. Yeah, and one thing, you know, on that situation where you've located a bowl through audible, you know you be a gole or you didn't bagle,

but you hear them bugle. One thing that I really like to do before we we put our plan together is here multiple bugles? Right? I want to just and and I'm not good at it because I'm the most impatient hunter ever, but I found you know, is is time goes on. Being able to hear multiple bugles from that bowl is giving us some sort of indication, like is the moving in a direction? Is he's sitting still? Do we need to change where we thought we were going to go? Versus if we, you know, make an

aggressive player, we take off. You know, we don't get to hear him bagle again. Uh did we just miss him by fifteen minutes? Did we just miss him by you know, a quarter mile of where we needed to be when we got down there, because he's now off

in a distance. So a lot of times ideally we don't poke at him too much, but we really want to hear the additional bugle from a long ways away because maybe, you know, especially if we located and gave up our position and he bagles, he may be coming already, or we located and he answers, he may be going away, and so you know, without being able to see what's going on, Um, I really like to know what his plan is, um, you know, and to get a second or a third or fourth vegle whatever it may be,

gives us at least some additional information versus you know, one bagle. It's kind of unfortunate because all we really know is that we've got an elk down there, you know of you know, or a bowl down there. Really, um, we we don't know what's going on, um, you know, we can't make any indicator you know, or guess is whether he's got cows, you know, any of that. So

multiple vehicles is always great. And then similar to you, um, the very first thing I do and I think, my my Grandpa would be pissed that that this is the first thing I do. You know, but you pull out your you know, your fancy smartphone out of your pocket as soon as you hear a bowl people, rather than you know, like figure an idea out, You're you're instantly looking at topo, like if that bull is there? Like, what are my you know, routes to get there? Similar

to you, what's the wind doing? Um? You know, where would you potentially go from here? Um? So yeah, I want to hear multiple vehicles. I'm gonna get out, you know, some mapping software figure out how I'm gonna get there. Um, and then you know, typically based on the wind and time of day, plan our approach. Yeah, I agree. I

couldn't agree more. Um. Back in the day before we had GPS, is that we carried does and and especially in areas you never hunted before, you'd hear a bowl a few times over there, and you'd get over there and you'll be like, well, I can't turn him up. He's he I guess he got out of the mood or just quit bugling. But um, with these smartphones now and are mapping, you can look at topography and you're

like oh, well, there's a saddle right there. He walked right over that, through that saddle, all bat you walk over there, Bam, he's bugle and his head off. You just couldn't hear him. Um Man. I wish I had a lot of those back from back in the early days. I think, I think I really really messed up by like, well here, I guess we'll go somewhere else, dang it. Yeah. And and one thing that I've drawn on from a

lot of experience and and extreme frustration. So these specific examples like or or like etched into my mind is elk. For one reason another, they're very good at sensing pressure and being quiet when needed. So I can remember, you know, multiple times where we've got a bowl going pretty good, but maybe it's a half mile a mile away, and we've got a pretty good, you know, trek to get there, you know, down across the canyon, up through some brush whatever it may be. We go over the right to

where we thought the bowl was. We do our calling, we try to locate him, we try to get the wind right and nothing, and then you will come back down the mountain, get back to where you located him from. And for no other good reason. He's in the same damn spot, and you're like, we're just there. You know, they they will, you know, I think they do a lot of listening multiple times we've climbed the mountain, climb back down the mountain, or vice versa, and get back

to that original point. And I just feel, you know, you've got to let the elk win occasionally, right, we're not gonnnna win them all. And in these certain times they're just very very smart and good at like, well, this bull's got too close. I really don't want to give up my position now. I'm willing to give my position up from a mile away or a half mile away. Uh, you know some of those uh you know, we're just that's just what you're dealing with as an educated elk.

And they don't get old from you know, doing everything wrong all the time. Yeah. And there's been often times where I've been calling to a bowl a lot and he's and calling back, and then for whatever reason, he just clams up, and you're like, huh, they just went from hundred miles an hour to like zero just within a couple of minutes, and you're like, what happened? You know, everything looks good, the wind is good. He can't see us.

Why is why did he be quiet? Um? And rather than like, well he must have figured us out and like packing up camp and leaving a lot of times the last few years, I've been just kind of just sitting down, like, hey, let's just sit down here and take a break. Let's have some snacks, have some water, kick our feet back, catch your breath, and sit down for maybe an hour. And especially if the bulls are you know, he's you know, a couple hundred yards away.

You know, we've gotten pretty close to him. A lot of times, you getting quiet and doing the same thing to him, um makes him uncomfortable and they start calling again. They're like, okay, where'd that ball go? Is he sneaking in on me or what? So sometimes if you just you know, play possum a little bit and just be quiet. Let's say you didn't move move over there where that bowl. You've been hearing him and you can't get him go do a bunch of calling, and then you shut up

and sit there for an hour. He may he may start talking. He may come walking in on you with no with no bugling at all. I've had that happen to where you hear a couple of twigs snap and you're like, what's that? And then here comes this bowl walking in. Yeah, that's that's a great tip. And and you know from from your experience, you know the same

same stuff that that we've had happened. So if Derek, if you could leave the listeners with with one golden nugget that may help him, Um, what would it be? You know? This year l cutting um, practice practice practice on your help calls. Right. Of course, you don't have to sound perfect, you know, like the perfect guy, like all your favorite guys on on YouTube or whatever. Uh, you don't have to sound perfect, but you have to

sound like an elk. Right. Um, If your calls don't sound like an elk, don't just put them away, you don't use them. But if they actually sound like an elk, add some intensity, add some emotion to them, and uh, and then have the confidence to use them. You hear a bowl, go ahead and rip it back at him or cal call to him or whatever. But don't don't pigeonhole of yourself with just one type of calling. Don't just leand percent on cal calls. I don't think you

should lean a hundred percent on Mugles. I think it's like a very um use a balanced approach, a little bit of both, whatever the bowl likes. Giving more of those and you'll have success. A great tip. Um, I really appreciate it. So we're gonna roll this into a part two and in part two we're going to cover setting up on ELK. So there's a lot we talk about calling on here all the time. We're gonna talk

about this specific setup. You know, whether you're gonna call a bowl downhill or up hill, what's your preference, Gonna talk about strategies such as calling in you know, a young satellite bowl versus a mature satellite bowl versus a herd bowl, and and how some of our tactics are going to change, and then um, you know, even adapting

during a hunt. We we got a very prescriptive calling method, but you know, similar to last year in New Mexico, we started to get our butt kicked and we had to adapt a little bit, and um, you know, it was one of the more frustrating hunts. So join in for part two and we're gonna touch on these next subjects in that podcast