Ep. 16: Decisions That Lead To Success with Trent Williams

find success. You're in and year out. Welcome to the show Tramp. Thanks Jason. I very much appreciate you having me on and and just being able to sit down and talk el hunting with you for a while. How's everything going there in Wyoming? Good? I mean this year. Maybe it's just because I'm a little more focused about it. I don't know, but it seems like a little bit more of a wet summer, which every he knows we need across the West, and it feels a lot nicer

oute and everything. Everything's rolling along smooth out here. Yeah, I know, speaking of the wet summer, you know, wet late spring. I know, horn growth across the West is um it's it's off the charts and a lot of units. It will be good for for anybody out there looking

for a few extra inches at elk horn. But yeah, one little STATU had in Wyoming too is that they claim and it's crazy coming from an area that has you know, single digit success rate, but your guys, is general tags um or or or I guess elk percentage elk success overall is forty four point four percent, which I think is unmatched, not even the second runner up

isn't even close. And so, um, that's a little tidbit of information I have on Wyoming that just you know, the elk hunting in Wyoming, not that you guys want any more people, but you know, the not us non residents are capped anyways, so you're you're you're gonna get what you get. But just Wyoming is one of those states where it's just like you guys, you guys are still living in what we consider the hey days of elk season in my opinion, or elk hunting in my opinion. Yeah,

I've heard it. I've heard it said by you know a lot of people, me included, that we really are in in the glory days of el cunning right now, and we have problems with you know, other populations of animals meldeers on decline everywhere, but Elk are really doing really well. And I feel fortunate to live here and just be able to hunt this state every single year where people are basically clawned to come on here, even on a on a general tag. Yeah, pretty pretty good.

So to start the podcast off, we're gonna take some listener questions, and once again for all of you out there, if you have a question you want submitted UM from my guests or myself to answer, please email us at ct D at Phelps game Calls dot com. We'll do our best to field your questions and get those answered. So the first question I have for you, Trent Elk. We're in an area in early August. Will they be

there in September? The in my experience, uh, the bulls that I found in early August UM are not in the same place as UM in September. UM. I found. The only real key takeaways that I found in August UM in my scouting missions is to find the nursery of cows. And then I went back to those areas that had all the cows in them during the summer months,

and the bulls just kind of show up. So I used to run trail cams a lot um and even scout harder in the places that you know, I now frequent a whole bunch, so it doesn't feel as important to me, but it still is important to go take inventory of the bulls there, and those same bulls that I might get on camera, you know, miles away could still show up um with those same cows. But as far as patterns, I have never been good at finding a spot in August that I can go back to

in September with any success. Yeah, and I'm on the same exact um, you know, wavelength you are there. We used to spend a lot of time before I knew any better, you know, scouting bulls, and I didn't realize I really needed to be paying attention to those cows, because you know, as soon as around here August arrives, those bulls were leaving to go start to check on those those big groups of cows, you know, start to break them up. Um, And yeah, it's just that natural process.

And once who understand that I'd rather pay attention to cows or even more importantly, you know, rub areas stuff like that, wallows um are more important. I do have a question for you, since you pay a lot of attention and you know target specific bulls, what what's the forthest you've seen, you know, an elk move from maybe that that Midsummer range to where they're gonna you know, ultimately find them during the or once season rolls around in September. Well, I don't know that I have a

real good bead um on movement like that. I mean, I can't even honestly say that I've seen the same bulls after I've scouted them, you know, in these general over the counter units. I don't know that I've scouted the same bulls that I've been seen with the cows. So as far as movement, you know, I'm not real sure. I just know that I have had bulls that I've hunted during the month of September that I've moved and

extremely long ways, especially when they're bumped. I mean I had it to where I bumped out maybe a couple of different times, um, and they've stayed in the same area. But then I don't know. It seems like when you finally do booger Um, I've had him, you know, I don't know. I've been seen as far as ten miles away, which in the mountains obviously, as you know, is a huge distance. So yeah, yeah, tough to tough to cover

that ground and stay with them. So um yeah. To to reiterate what Trent said, where you find elk in early August, especially the bowls is not where you're going to find them. Um come September, I would, you know, focus your attention on the cows, the bigger groups of cows, and pay attention to that area or in close proximity to that area as a season approaches. So the second question for you when drawing a game plan for the day, how do you decide where you're going to start and

how does your day progress? Like? Can you can you build out a day? Um, you know, in the life of hunting elk in the woods, I can try. On a perfect day, I guess I would have a game plan from the night before, whether that's like if I'm just starting a trip off, I'll try and get into the wood or uh, you know, get to camp before nightfall that evening and then just be able to either scout or bugle or do something to try and get

my head in the game for the next morning. If I have completely nothing going, then I'll usually start start my morning early and road bugle. Uh. Basically try and be either on elk right and early when the sun comes up, or be hiking into where I feel like I have my best chance to get on elk, whether that's um, taking into consideration the people around um, or you know, any other kind of circumstances we could have. UM. I guess after the you know, morning kind of leads

us to to what we do the rest of the day. Yeah, do you do you prefer to glass right off the bat or do you want to be right, you know, on top of elk or or do you not have a preference. I'd prefer to be right on top of them. I I joke with you know a couple of hunting buddies that I usually spook more elk before some people wake up in the morning, and that actually gets kind

of rustrating at times. But I also, I mean, I just feel it's important to keep contact with elk, especially in the morning when they're moving from that feeding to bedding area. Just being able to be right on top of them, you know, the best time of day, you're gonna get to kill them when they're most vocal, most active, and be able to be in position to strike sometimes, you know, Yeah, I get in over my head and I spook balls in the dark and elk as a

whole in the dark. But it's kind of just a price I've learned to pay with and and try and learn my lesson. But at the same time, I guess I'm not all that disappointed in it, because I know I was trying to put myself in the best position I could be to succeed that day. Yeah, for sure. And that's one thing that we as well learned, you know, is I learned to hunt a certain way here on

the coast range. You know, we had a lot of clear cuts and and industrial timberlands, and when we decided to start hunting the mountains, um, we quickly learned that. You know, right off the bat, I wanted to always take the easy route, stay high on the ridge, you know,

be on a trail, um, do things that were easy. Um. But then you start to realize, well, I'm we're gonna kill an elk from up here with the thermals, you know, at least not in the first couple hours, and so we started to learn over time, like, hey, we got to get up an hour hour and a half earlier, we need to go down the ridge and then we need to go down in the drainage and approach it was alk a different way, and so you know, similar to that, Like you know, we bumped a lot of elk.

We we bump a lot of elk being aggressive, trying to get in tight you know, as they're biggling a little bit more during the dark and try to be you know, you get as close as possible without you know, you're kind of we're running that that risk of is it going to be daylight by time, you know everything, So you're kind of shadow in the herd, and we do a lot of that that same stuff, very aggressive play, but um, at least we're on those elk as soon

as daylight hits. Yeah, And like you mentioned, a lot of times you have to approach from the bottom and that's I mean, that's tough too, to try and chase down elk up a mountain. Um, Like you're saying it's easier to be on top, but you're sometimes that's not necessarily the best position to kill those elk. On top where they can smell you. So a lot of it. Yeah, it's just I guess it just comes down to feel. I mean, I like to be right on top of Elk as the sun rises. A lot of people maybe

would you know, rather take that easier route? Yep, yep. So um, thank you very much for those two. Um. Once again, if you have any questions of your own, please email them at ct D app Phelps game Calls dot Com and will do our best to get those answered for you. So now we're gonna jump into some questions that I have for Trent and just um, some information that I want to talk about. I think it's important, and we'll get it started off with the moon phase.

Does the moon phase affect how you hunt or plan your hunt? How you know, how you take your days off or your vacation any of that, and kind of how does moon phase affect your arch real kunny. I mean, I've gone back and forth on this, I guess just I don't know. As experiences start to kind of rack up, I still as a whole the full moon, you know week has always been slower for me, but then I've also seen being able to hunt, you know, basically um, the entire month of September, the ebbs and flows of

the Elk Rut as a whole. You think that, you know, just because we get into late September and the fact that there's no moon, that the Elk ruts just going to be off the charts no matter what. And I've seen that not be the case either where you have quiet woods, So um, I mean my usual pattern anymore. I don't necessarily can't say I don't enjoy it, but the two week long trips are hard on me. I like to just like those five six day blocks, especially

being in state. Obviously this is easier. But if I could just plan those five six day blocks out um, and if the ruts not happening, you know, I kind of have some freedom. I can go home or whatever. And if it really is happening, I can take a couple of extra days off. And that's really kind of how I play it anymore. When it's good, I try and stay on. And when it's not, you know, obviously I still hunt hard and try some different tactics like

sitting wallows. But you also, you know, you got to pick your vacation days wisely, and and that's I've been lucky enough to go about it in that way instead of the moon phase. So yeah, the full moon, I don't like it. I don't like hunting during it necessarily. It gives me a feeling that it's not going to be good. But um, I've had it to where you know, there's both google and on the full moon, just like

no moon. So yeah, And do you find that those bulls are just more active at night during that moon phase versus you know, a lot less running action during the day when you can hunt, versus they're doing all of it at night. Um? Or do you just feel that it shuts them down a little bit? Yeah, I mean I I do feel that way. I think the full moon they're you know, they're more active, they're out

feeding all night. Um. And then honestly, and I guess another thing I try and do is camp up high And a lot of that experience being camped up high on ridge tops has allowed me to listen for elk as I'm sleeping in my wallton at night. And that's kind of become an important thing too, is is being able to kind of keep track, you know, what the elk are doing with any different moon phase or weather pattern. In the middle of the night and then that has helped jump start me to to to the stuff I

want to do in the morning. But um, just being able to kind of keep track of them during the night and see and what what changes with these elk patterns in the full moon. I'm on board fully. You know. Moon phase always seems to you know, knock the rut down from where it was, and there always seems to be a phase after, you know, the full moon where things picked back up. I'd prefer to hunt on the back end of a full moon. Um, it just seems

that the action. But you know, we don't get to pick when it is and how it coordinates with the full rut. So you know, I'm I'm you know, limited days in September. I'm usually out there regardless, um, you know. And and I did an experiment. You know, I'm an engineer by trade, and my mind works that way. So I remember it was back in like maybe two thousand,

fifteen sixteen. I went back and I could remember all the dates that I had killed elk on you know, either through pictures or I could just remember the days very distinctly, and then went and checked that with the moon phase and I had killed to that point, like three or four of my biggest bull bolls on like two days of either side of the full moon. And you know whether and whether it's just a coincidence or

whether there's correlation. And then one year we went up in a in a wilderness area and hung a camera specifically on what I would consider a more wide open wallow. You know, it was a natural spring out out more in the sun, the heat high in a basin where elk typically wouldn't be in the middle of the day. Um, we set the trail camera up there, and to my surprise,

I could never do this again. We didn't have a picture of a deer, didn't have a picture of a bear, didn't have a picture of anything, not even cows, nothing but bulls. You know, the entire month of August. I think it's six hundred and seventy odd pictures of bulls. And I didn't do this, but my buddy did it.

But I was able to look at the data. We went and looked at, you know, the snapshot of and we removed duplicates, but we went and looked at like when that bowl was out in the middle of the heat, and you know, or even nighttime and checked it against moon phase, and by time we were done, Like, man, there's really no rhyme or reason, Like it didn't matter that month if it was before the moon, whether it was during full moon, or whether it was on you know,

the trailing moon. Like it didn't seem to matter on when those elk were you know, daytime, nighttime, any of that. Um. Now, I'm not telling everybody don't pay attention to it, because it's obvious. You've you've experienced, you know, uh, a little bit of lack in in in the rut and and I've experienced the same thing. But I I guess the general consensus is pay attention to the moon phase. You know,

plan your vacation accordingly. But there's only so many days in September, and and uh, I just soon be out there struggling through the moon phase versus you know, being at home. But um, you know there's also guys out there with limited time, and um, you know, effort, you know, as you said, you get burnt down, you know a little bit from chasing them during those hard times. So yeah, that that's kind of where we're at on on the moon phase. Pay attention to it. Um, it does matter,

but um, it is what it is, especially during September. Yeah, and I know that my answer maybe necessarily doesn't help somebody plan their vacation on the moon phase. You know. My answer basically is just when you can kind of like yours, I mean, and you're gonna have higher chances about bugling in the later half of September. So I think that's a that's a better bet than I mean, I would bet on that more so than I would, you know, coming early in September, because the moon is better.

I guess That's what I'm trying to get at. Don't don't necessarily make the moon you're deciding factor and think that the elk cred is gonna be better on September three than it is on September. You know. Yeah, that's a that's a great point, um, you know, and then trying to you know, we could talk about all the differences between where the moon phases versus the you know, the time in September, and um, you'd have to write a book on how to figure it out. So yeah,

I agree with you. There. You live you know in Wyoming Hunt in Wyoming, Um, you know, the heart of Wolf Country. Um, my Idaho spot is in wolf country and my Montana spots you know, covered up in wolves. UM. In your opinion, what is different? How did the elk you know, react different whether there are wolves in the area actively in the area, and then how do you kind of adapt your strategies to deal with wolves um in the same spot you want to hunt elk. I

don't know that. I think for a while it was and I don't know if I just jumped on the bandwagon or not or what necessarily happened, But it was not for a while that the elk got a whole lot quieter. And I think to some degree that's true. Um. But we have we have a few places that that are pretty heavy in wolf country. And I can't say that I necessarily hunted any different than I than I

did before, or or would hunt it any differently. I can't say there's a correlation correlation and them timbering up more anything like that. And and I don't know if it's because the wolf packs out here have such a huge home range, um that it doesn't bother him as much. But I just back to kind of what we started with and the fact that this is glory days of elk hunting and wyoming is um. You know, units across the board, you know, give or take a few, are

are high in population. And uh, I think just the elk cret just by that fact alone, is I mean, I guess to shorten it up, I haven't seen much of a change as far as how I approach things. Wolves or no wolves. Yeah, that that's great information from you know, you've been in that same area for the you know what twenty plus years, and you know not to see a difference coming from western Washington where we don't have wolves and I get to go hunt, you know,

spots like Idaho, Montana. UM, I noticed like a small

localized difference. Um. We hunt an area that has what I would consider three main three major drainages out of it, and then we can we can be high and we can listen into him at night, and if we hear wolves howling, you know, in the evening, um or or at any time throughout the day in that specific drainage, we can almost guarantee it's gonna be a little bit quieter than maybe it was the day before, or or you know, if we've been hunt in the same area

for the last week, it's like, all right, it's it seems to be a little dead now. Whether that's just once again coincidental, um, but we're almost to the point now where if we do hear wolves in a certain drainage, we'll just pick a different one to go into. Whether it's in my head, um or or I just think they're being less kind of like you said, we kind of just bought into the that they're having a huge effect.

But once we get in tight, I feel like I just have to get in a little bit closer, maybe a little bit more intimate with these elk, and then we can get them to talk again. We're not necessarily they're not just completely mute. They don't talk for the entire day. They don't decide that you know that the wolves around they're going to be quiet for the next forty eight hours. In my opinion, there's still elk. They're

still running their doing what elk do. They may just be a little bit a little bit more tight lipped, and and they just won't They require you to be a little bit closer before they're going to open up and talk back to you. Yeah, And I don't know that that I just have, you know, maybe a skewed perception just because the populations are doing so well. Because I know that, you know, talking with guys in Idaho and stuff where the population has crashed because of wolves,

that's not the case. And I I've heard the same thing from guys that you know, got go hunting the thoroughfare in Wyoming too, that the experience is a whole lot different. But I haven't a walked in there that far into the thoroughfare kind of stuff, and don't have a horse to get in there. So these places, you know, like northern Idaho, I've heard the stories of. I mean, if the population is going to crash and these elkno that wolves are predator number one, I can very much

imagine that that's the case for sure. I appreciate that tip from from a guy that's hunted you know, the same you know, same general area for for lots of years, and then you'll be able to give us a real good read on, you know, in your opinion, how wolves have affected it. So my next question for you, Trent is living in Wyoming, Um, you've got some pretty liberal hunting season dates, you know, aside from Montana. I think you guys maybe have the longest general. Um, you know

archioks season. UM, so it's kind of the perfect question for you. UM, when do you find the most success? You know, you can hunt any we're from the beginning of September to the end of September, and then, um, you know, kind of explain you know, pre pre ru peak, post rut and when you found your most success and then what you what you found in the other two Um, you know, times I um kind of like you've I noticed when I was killing my best bulls and they

were all earlier in September. So, um, I had success early in September for a lot of years. But I also the only thing that I'll add in about like season dates in Wyoming is I used to not necessarily be just just a strict archery l khunt or either there's seasons in Wyoming, like deer seasons in Alpine that open September fift So a lot of you know, some years I'd go and i'd l hunt the first you know, ten fifteen days of September whatever I could make work

and then go rifle deer hunt. And so I think sometimes you know, especially you know early in my career, when I didn't have as much vacation I had to pick and choose. I really enjoyed Elk cunting early UM and then going to doing other things and trying to just fit in as much stuff as I could. So I had more success early and I thought maybe, you know, I had unlocked the key, and I don't know that that's necessarily the case anymore. I just think it was

all about timing. But as far as going through September UM, I really I guess I just try and feel it out. I just try and match the mood of the ELK. Early September the last few years has been relatively dead. We've had a couple of times where on September one where Elk haven't had any pressure. You know, they're screaming the night before on August thirty one or whatever, and

we've had a pretty good hunter. There's a day or two, like September three or fourth, where Elk are screaming pretty good and you're able to kind of play the game with them a little bit before everybody else starts to UM, but still just trying to kind of let out some some some slower UM location bugles, kind of those where are you bugles that are quieter in the timber, and just kind of really digging these elk out more so than trying to hunt them out to have screaming matches

with them. I think has really helped me. I've been able to locate elk um when seemingly others can't, just by doing that, just by kind of getting in close into their bedding area, trying to play the wind and then letting out just these little grunts or or little calls tell you know, asking these elk where they are, and I've been answered by basically the same bugle back just to really low almost half bedded bugle I know,

you know what I'm talking about, Jason. But Um then as protruding into September, I mean, just just still trying to mac match their intensity. When it starts getting good middle of September, that first real good running activity, you know, I'll try and scream with them as much as I can. Um. With that said, I'm usually hunting elk solo um, and it's it's just really tough to be your own caller

and shooters. So a lot of times I'm trying to get in as close as I if I can't, if I feel like I can't just spot and stock them or locate them and then stock in. I'm getting in as close as I can, basically throwing whatever calls I think are going to close the deal for me, and then running forward basically as much as I feel comfortable, whether that's twenty ords are a hundred yards, depending on

the terrain, is basically my go to is. And then as we moved through September, like we talked about a little bit before those ebbs and flows of the season when it's really hot, I mean, I'll just go more aggressive. And then as September moves on and we get through those ebbs and flows of the season, just matching them and figuring out what makes them tick and staying close to them all day. Really, yeah, I've got a I've

got a little bit of input here. You know, Washington were limited to about a ten day plus or minus season, and they added day or take a day away here. But our seasons have moved from like the first you know, day after Labor Day to like the twelve, and then at some time it went from like the tenth of they but I know, way back when, like the tenth of the thirteenth were like my better days right before

the peat, you know, things were just getting going. And that's when I had found like my most success is like, all right, we're kind of out of the pre PREI rod, but we're right on the cusp of of what I would consider the peak ruck, kind of the main breeding season. And that's when I found success. Like right as those bulls are, you know, are to get you know, a little bit amped up and uh, a little bit testy, and that was kind of my time to use my

more aggressive calling style. And then you know, post rut, I don't know, I'm not one of those guys that buys into the ruts super late or the rut didn't happen this year, but I've I've been able to spend a lot more time out in the woods, you know, with some of the October Montana seasons or you know, some of the units and Wyoming to let you continue

to hunt into October UM. And I found that the ruts still cranking pretty dang good, you know, into October one, you know, all the way even to the October tenth and some of these areas I've hunted um, which you know, whether people, I think the majority people would consider that post rout, whether it's younger cows coming back in a second time or you know, just cows coming in late um. But you know, as of late it seems like the hunting can be really good, you know, even through that

first part of October. UM and and but there's no denying the peak rut, you know, for for most people is what you're out there after to hear lots of bugles, a lot of action, and that not necessarily have to guess where they're at. Yeah, and we have just to add on to it a little bit more. We have rifle elk tags that open. A lot of them open October and a lot I mean, jeezus, it's very rare that I go a year without hearing a bowl on

the morning of October fifteen. Sometimes when rifles start, rifle shots start singing out, it shuts him up, but pat it to where I've chased bugles from basically the entire week. I'm up there, rifle eil cutting up. You know, I'm kind of treating it like it's the middle of the red. I'm able to bugle at him and get him to answer. And obviously you're using a rifle, so that the range factor becomes a whole lot better. You don't have to

get near as close. But yeah, the October stuff has been really good too, being a guy that I have to ask a question just because it always kind of it kind of catches me off guard. Being an archer end that goes to rifle. Does it take you a little bit on that first morning? But I don't gotta bow in my hand anymore. I can just shoot that from where I'm at. You know, It's like it always kind of like I have to laugh at myself because you go from bow mode for the you know month, Hey,

this is this game just got a whole lot easier. Yeah. Absolutely, I've had a couple of times where, you know, my wife's been getting into into l cutting a little bit. She never did, you know, with her family before meeting me, but she loves listening to Elk bugle and being a

part of it. But anyway, I've had a couple of times where I'm kind of trying to put the put the pieces together on how to get close to these bulls and you know, you got it at least in my brain that I'm not going to call out across the canyon, and you know, I'm not gonna do all these things, so I'm trying to mentally kind of figure out what I'm gonna do, and then I just kind of turned to her and go, well, geez, I guess all we have to do is have them step out

in the middle of this meadow and there're three yards away and life's good. So yeah, the same kind of thing. All all you really have to do is get their attention having bugle back and the games on, or just move them, you know a little bit, and you're in the game as well. I've talked to you in the past a little bit. Uh, I know, you get up extremely early. You'll do some things like stay up late and even glass if the moonlight allows, um night locating,

you know, road bugl NG. Can you kind of explain you know, I think it's obvious why you do it, but kind of your strategy and uh, you know, putting in all that extra effort to make sure that you're on out, you know, to start start with. Yeah, the road bugling stuff I really do when I've got nothing going.

Kind of how we started the beginning of this podcast, which like if if nothing's happened the evening before, I've just got you know, I've got no idea what what I'm gonna do the next day, I'll just wake up and road bugle. Um that kind of touched on sleeping up high on a ridge top has helped too, because I mean, I've been woke up by bulls bugling before, but road bugling is huge just to um, yeah, to

start the day when I've got nothing going on. I mean I've got up as early as three o'clock in the morning when I just really haven't figured anything out for a couple of days. That gives you time to hit some trailhead. I mean, road bugling kind of extended

hit some trailheads. You can walk a half mile three cards of a mile to a high point that you know, you know nobody else is going to even hear that bugle, that you're going to have the entire woods to yourself and to be able to be able to scream down these ridge tops, you know, half miles, three cards a mile mile, whatever you need to do when these bulls are most active to get these responses is huge and doesn't obviously mean that it ends up in my favor

every time, but um, just to have um that avenue to go with has just become something that I do religiously, and and even I guess when I do have something to go on waking up early in the morning, running down the ridge top bugling at these out and seeing if they're in the same spot I left him, or if they've switched ridges, and you know, I gotta do something else in the dark to get in position rather than selling out and being in the wrong spot. Is

something else I'll do. Um that I consider the road bugling. And then the other part of waking up early really is just it's gamesmanship on on general tag public lands. I mean, you get to a spot and you hope that if you're parked there, you know the next guy won't walk in. It's not always the case, obviously, but I mean most of the time outdoorsman el hunters are are pretty respectful of that. And so I don't want to leave a lot of things up to luck, especially

if I do have something go on my way. So to get up early, get to where I want to park, you know, maybe walk in that half mile mile, listen to the listen to the woods, wake up, whatever I need to do is all part of waking up early. That I'm lucky that I guess I'm able to. I've always been one of those people that just has no problem waking up early in the morning and I'm excited to go l cunning and when it's time to go, it's time to go. Yeah, those are all, you know,

the same things we do. And it's hard to to kind of drill that into somebody's said, you know, it's like they want to be asleep when it gets dark, or back to camp, or you know, even as far as like only hunting to a point where you could then returning me back to your truck by dark. Um, I've used some of the those opportunities, like I'm just gonna sit out at the end of a ridge until dark because I've got to walk back an hour and a half and what better location or area to just

listen on the way back. You know, some of these things that separate Um, yeah, I don't separate. The I'm gonna say at the ninety percentage from the ten per centers is you know, people that want to be back to their truck by dark because it's more comfortable, and

then they're eating their dinner earlier. Like I'm willing to give up some of those luxuries in order to I'm just gonna sit out here until it gets dark listen for a little bit longer, because I should have put myself in a good area if I'm doing everything else right, you know, and then, um, you know, one thing we do is a lot of night locating. If we're not on elk, if we know they're elk in a certain area we've got on pattern, then we'll just leave the

other elk alone. Um, not harass them. But you know, if we're not on elk or we haven't found them within a day, or we're in a unit, we'll just start driving roads or like you said, hiking short trails out locating at night, and then once we do locate them, we're leaving them alone. But um, it goes back that idea that like I want to be on an elk every morning, I actually want to be sitting on elk every midday, and I want to be hunting those elk at night. Like I don't want to be looking for

elk during times that I can be killing elk. Um is kind of its kind of my strategy. Yeah, and you're exactly right. And I'll even just add to the point a little bit more I've you know, had those times where late in the evening, I'm busting it to get back to the truck before it's dark. And you know,

back to bringing up my wife. She thinks we're done for the day, and I have to mention to her, no, I'm I'm busting it so that we can get to the truck, get up here, and then I can hurry and run up this ridge and go glass because you know, it's evening time, everything's coming out to feed. It's dead where we're at, and I gotta have something figured out by tomorrow. You know, I'm not gonna know what to do.

So just another little piece of that, you know, busted out of there, maybe, but use every remaining piece of daylight that you can to locate olk. That's a great tip, and you know it is I've said it many times, but you can't kill alk unless you got some elk located. So willing to do whatever it takes to locate those. Put in the effort, and you know, stay later, get up earlier. Um all is going to add your success.

So we've we just touched a little bit. It was a great segue into you know, getting up super early, trying to be on elk right and you know first daylight, you know, hunting all the way till the end of the day. What's what's your strategy mid day? Do you hunt mid day? Do you sit on elk? You try to hunt betted elk? Um? Do you utilize that that you know we tend to tend to you tend to four timeline to to to harvest. I guess that tend to two time frame is about the only time during

elk season that I have any patients at all. I feel like in the morning and in the evening, if you can't tell already, you know, I'm running around like a madman trying to either get on elk or get in perfect position that tend to to nothing's going on. That's the only time I have any patients. Um. You know I've heard bulls crack off midday just by staying in the woods. Um. Everybody else goes back to camp,

Just stay in the woods. I mean, it's also about the only time I read a book too, So I'll take a book in there with me, read a book or whatever, and just be where I either lost those elk in the morning, um, or get to a spot where I think the elk could be you know, better at at and start making noise in the early afternoon. Just something again to be in position during during prime time. Um. And there's there's still plenty days to where I go

back to camp. I mean, I guess as I've gotten older, I'm thirty one now, that never would have been the case probably, um. But I do enjoy the camping aspect too. And it's also you know, it's still vacation as well, So there's times I get caught up in you know, let's just go back to camp and let's have a beer and let's regroup because we've got nothing going and and I don't know that staying out midday is gonna help us. And sometimes those regroup times are important too

for sure. Yeah, keeping that, you know, morale up, motivation up. Um. You know a quick quick story from last year, um, New Mexico super hot we had. This may even be exaggerating, you know, our acts to hut them in the morning, in half an hour at night to hunt them. Um. And and those midday like midday madness is what I call it, because I was going crazy just having to sit on bedded elk. And that was one of you know, similar to you, like you almost just have to you know.

We just talked about doing everything we can to find elk and keep yourself in the game and kill Elk. But there were a few days where we're just like, man, we gotta go back to camp, you know, same thing, have a cold beer, kind of just you know, unwind because you know, the midday in some of these areas was certain Elk. It's just it's not gonna happen, um,

you know. But there are times if if the bulls responsive or gives us bedded vehicles or you know, it's at least you know, you know, talking to us, we will go in if we can get the wind right, um, and try to kill him in the middle of the day. Um. But a lot of times these elk beds and spots that in my opinion, just too risky um to go in there in the middle of the day. I'd rather just wait, you know, until that evening or the following

morning and without blowing him out of the country. A lot of times, I'm sure, like here, you notice they're bettered in like bowls, and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with shade, but it also has to do it. I mean, I know you've noticed it. Anytime you enter a bowl, the wind starts to shift every direction, and even though you've got maybe you know, wins you can count on when you start, as soon as you get in that bowl, it seems like I

have to back out a lot of times. In Wyoming, where the wind blows constantly, you seem to just have shifty wins a lot of times in the middle of the day. Anyway. Yeah, they they've got that sense that they you know, I'm sure it's an eight and they do it on purpose, but yeah, they bed down where there's no way for you to approach because the wind and it's frustrating. His heck, but that's one of the reasons why they they they're there obviously. Um, all right,

so you're in the middle of the season. We've kind of heard your answer a little bit. It sounds like maybe you go home. But when the elk aren't bugling, kind of what's your next move? If how are you gonna go find him? How are you going to approach him? Um? What's your strategy when they're just not talking? Um? Well, I mean, first I wouldn't like to go home, And there's sometimes you know, in the middle of a weekend

or something where I wouldn't UM. It just comes down that aspect, just comes down to vacation days and what a guy can use. UM. But as far as elk elk not talking, I mean gone about finding them, I just end up reverting back to UM all my road bugling stuff, and then the patients factor that I guess we just kind of hit on. I'll try and either even if I don't sit them. I've had very little success sitting wallows, but I guess I've had zero success

sitting wallows. I mean I've found wallows that are seemingly being used, sat on them and had nothing come in, or and seeing game camp picks where elk have come in, you know the day before at noon or two o'clock or whatever. But that's always I think that's what I privor reverted to last year was I walked streams, I found wallows, I sat wallows and it didn't work. I mean just I guess doing anything to to think outside the box and do something that I wasn't doing before

UM without driving myself completely crazy. And and last year early September, I know I had one day where we all kind of in the high with seventy nine degrees, which is, you know, really hot for Wyoming mountains. And so I just knew that wallows were the best way to get it done, and I still couldn't figure anything out. So, um, you know, I guess to someone all up when I can't, when elk current bugle and it's tough out, I just

try and do something different. Set wallows. Um, I'll sit on betting areas um as carefully as you can so that you're not doing more harm than good. Um staying in the woods and then being up earlier and later. Really, yeah, I'm in the same boat. I've tried to hunt wallows. I'm very impatient, and so my whole thought is I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna be really patient. I'm gonna

have a good comfortable seat. And I get there for about ten minutes and it's like this is you know, I'm either going to fall asleep or you know, the wind isn't doing what I want. And so similar to you, I've had absolutely zero success on wallows. Now, what I have did where wallows have you been been a contributor

to my success? Is we just get near them and we can maybe hear a vehicle off of them, or and we're able to use that wallow to kind of jump jump start, And then when they all current bugling, I always kind of try to think, like where are they, um, you know, if we haven't seen him in the morning or in the evening, Like I'm looking, I'm looking at hillsides, I'm looking for um dark timber patches, maybe a little bit more mellow than than the rest of the train

around it. UM two eighteen, Idaho. We we threw a dart of the map, ended up in a brand new unit, never been there. And one of the most frustrating things for me right off the bat is spotting an elk with your binoculars five yards away and then us just we we know they didn't see us. They just came out in an opening. We will vehicle, you'll hear them, or you'll you'll see them look at you and they

won't make a peep. And you've already made vegles before that because you were just trying to sound check in area, and so we were kind of in in this um, you know, like what the heck there's And it wasn't just one, it was multiples like, I felt like we were in a very good spot with a good density of elk, but yet they just would not answer and and wouldn't answer. The next day they wouldn't answer. You know,

they would answer a little bit better at night. But it made it very, very difficult, and you had almost zero confidence that you weren't walking by elk. And one of the things we did, UM dialed up on X whatever mapping you do. We looked for you know, steep you know, north facing stuff that was in the shade very you know, it was a hot, hot season, all the all the stuff above tree line was dried out, no food, so we just kind of felt like, oh, like, where are they gonna be? Where should we go check?

And so what we did is we started you know, getting into those areas more early morning, which I would say those would be areas we avoid because we couldn't glass into them. And UM, by doing that, just looking for you know, thicker timber, better shade, you know, better betting on the north side. They weren't even utilizing the south outside for food or any of the open meadows.

They were just kind of hanging out in the timber, surviving in there because you know, and that was one of those tips that we just kind of had to adapt from where the elk probably wanted to be, but due to the temperature um you know, and then not biggling, we just had to go get into their lap, you know, and go where they were and they were spending a lot of and once we found them, it was almost easy, like, hey, any any north facing slope with shade with some sort

of bench or or bull is holding the elk and where they just ask you where that was that? Did that move make getting close to those elk on those kind of slopes, did that make them more responsive to calling? Or was that just basically a sneak in and here's your chance kind of stuff. No, I'm I'm not the most sneaky guy, Trent. So we used once we once once we found them, we would just kind of slowly turn the temperature up. We we've talked about on this

podcast a lot before. Um we talked about turning the temperature up on elk because a lot of times when you get into these elk that weren't bigging a lot on their own, they're just now truly um, you know, hesitant to vehicle. They're not super fired up. They just kind of it's a whole hum. You know, I always think of it like or um if he was an elk, like you know, do to do? You know, they just they just they answer when they want. They don't really

get aggressive. But we would slowly turn the pace up on him. We would you know, calcol maybe a little light vehicle, and then we'd slowly get more aggressive and

we could eventually get that bull fired up. Um. On the fourth or fifth day, we were able to take an exceptional ball out of this unit, especially for this unit, and um, we just slow played him and we ended up they were they were feeding a little bit lower on the north slope and they were coming back up to their bed and we were able to get him. Um all sorts of ticked off, and you know, it's kind of some We got this one on video, really cool video. He kind of just finally gets so mad

at us. He just like barrels through you know, an impenetrable wall of brush and we we get like a ten yard shot on him. But um, yeah, it was in that base in that day, that area had multiple heard bowls just screaming in it, and so it was just a you know, not our typical spot, not our typical strategy where we typically want to find elk. But um, you know they were being quiet. It was hot out and we just had to go find him. And you know, we had to go find where they were. Um, and

and that's what worked for us. Uh. Next question for you you're out there? UM, what what sign you? I mean typically sounds like you're on elk in the morning or night. But what are you paying attention to? Why you I always preach you want to be an educated elk hunter. Um, I maybe over the top, but I'm paying attention to two tracks in the dust in front of me, you know, on the trail, or I'm paying attention to where multiple elk may have crossed the path

I'm on. UM, you know scat rubs, fresh rubs, you know wallows that are mudded up, all of this stuff. I'm like constantly just building on uh and trying to put together a game plan. What are you looking for? What's most important? Why you're out there hunting to kind of um you draw the roadmap to your success. I guess similar to you. I mean the biggest thing is

just looking for for freshness. Of course, UM, rubs you know tells me that there's bowls in the area that um are acting ready UM, And then I guess just to even go along with that, a little same thing with you know, lots of tracks or even even lack of human presence, I guess is a lot of what I look for inside. If I'm the only boots on the trail, or or that's walked in onto a point to call from, or anything like that, that's important to

me too. If I'm seeing fresh elk sign um and I'm the only one that's been in there, then I know, at least I've got that spot cornered. And then the only other thing I guess I can really add to it is I'll look for like um close together peace spots. I know that elk are living in that timber when

I'm in it, especially when things get tough. Is you know, walking through the timber, and you'll see even stuff that's relatively old a couple of days, you can see where elk of pete in the woods, and so UM, I guess the same as you. I guess I'm always being a tentative to but to to explain exactly what I'm looking for, I don't know if I can put my finger on that necessarily. Yeah, just just all of those

general things. Um, but yeah, the boot presence is a great one that you know, we're also calculating into the area and and it kind of adds up to what I feel, you know, our future success in that area is.

And um, yeah, something that that's very important. Um, if you can hunt an area that doesn't have other people, UM, always like my odds better and in those spots for sure versus you know, I would Me and Nate Simmons talked about this a little bit, like taking our odds in an area that it maybe has less elk but no people, versus an area with lots of people but lots of elk. I would almost always pick. I'll take less elk with you know, no people or or less people.

And uh, you know that way, it's truly a game, you know, you versus yolk versus like you said, the gamesmanship of how often to beat people to certain areas or people making what I consider you know, unethical decisions are coming in the wrong way with the wind just to try to beat you. I'm not interested in and hunting that way, um, if at all possible. Yeah, And I I've I mean probably like most Elk counters, I branched out and found different spots. But it's the spot,

and you probably have some of these two. This is the spot I grew up Elk cunning that you know, you learn every game trail in the place. You know where Elk go to bed, you know where that you know if they're not in this spot, there in this spot. And I spend the vast majority of my September, you know, within the same general area. And and just the knowledge that I have in a place is so hard to leave. And that's like when you were talking about, you know,

when things get tough. Um, to revert back to that for just a second. I mean you can almost see the the woods leave. You know, people are leaving. It's tough. Everybody's everybody's leaving. Almost take that as a positive. You know, everybody's leaving and getting out of here. And this is my chance to have maybe a little bit more relaxed Elk. And although there were a lot of people here, now you know, maybe with this lack of presence we can get something done. Yep, I I like less people, um,

and I don't. I don't. I've did this long enough found enough success that UM. I always try to remember it just takes one. You know, you can have the worst ten days of l hunting followed up by one good calling with you know, the bull of your lifetime. UM. And it's that simple. And so that's why it's easy, you know, seeing it happen and and come to fruition. You know, year after year or time after time that it's easy for me to be motivated just because I've

seen it happen. But I think you know, everybody else out there that maybe hasn't found a whole lot of success. Um, it's easier to to you know, fold up camp and go home, or or to leave an area. And you know, as long as there's elk there, um, and you're hunting, there's always a chance. UM. So yeah, and then we've

touched on this a little bit earlier trance. UM. You know, you don't always call UM, and so I want to just get a little bit you're calling strategy and then when you decide not to call, like when the scenario or what what, um, you know adds up to a decision where you're not going to call to a milk and you're gonna go spot in stock. I mean, I I guess to start, I realized I'm talking with Jason Phelps, who made his living making game calls. So, um, I I guess I grew up Well, hey, I grew up

as a rifle hunter. I didn't start bow hunting milk until I was like seventeen years old, so I really didn't have any very many calling skills at all. Um, And it's just kind of you know, it comes as as you start bow hunting. But I always just kind of got in my head that, um, the best chance I had to kill a bull was when they didn't

know you were there. And I still abide by that. Uh. You know a lot of the time I think if I don't make that bowl make a decision whether he's got to come and go, I think my chances are pretty high. A lot of times, you know, just in the woods, that's impossible to do. So I just feeled a situation out basically by that, like can I locate that bowl and sneak my way in and kill him?

You know? Starting from there, all the way to doing is this dude in thick cover and I've got to get in there, and he's got cows and I'm gonna have to be rip a bugle in his face and get him fired up and have him come fight me. So I just let the terrain basically, you know, lead

me to what I have to do. If I feel like I cannot get any closer, you know, hey, if I don't know where this bull is, I'm gonna have to make him make some noise and then be If I can't get any closer, you know, the terrain's wide open or or the timbers wide open or whatever, and I'm gonna have to call to him, then that's how I'll do it that way. But that's about as difficult as I make my decision making. Yeah, So let me

ask you a different question. Have you found that you know more your your more mature bulls have come, are you? You know, I've heard a lot of people, you know, Nate Simmons, um, you know, there's Chuck Adams, some of these guys that don't call as much as I do, you know, and some guys saying that they've killed their

bigger bulls or they're better bulls. Have you found that you're able to not call in some of these bigger you know more um, I would say educated herd bulls or have you not found that to be the case, or have you or have you found more success spot in stalking these you know, larger, more mature bulls. Um. The first big bull I killed was purely spot in stock. I spotted him an open terrain and stocked in there.

But probably the most memorable I've killed six by seven was a mix and I I kinda I learned this ball through screwing up on him basically for three years straight with a bow and a rifle. I mean, he was in, like we've mentioned, a heavily hunted unit, but he was secretive when he needed to be and knew how to how to survive. So I called that bull in and and just I mean, this is just a case where I learned one elk, and this one elk has helped me so tremendously on learning everything as a whole,

as far as hunting other bulls. But called him in, and just immediately could see the demeanor about how this elk acted when I didn't call. You know, he was kind of happy, go lucky and bugling at will. And then when I called, they'd shut up and he'd sneak in for a look. And I had him sneak in like two or three different times. And so I guess just as the day's hunting and progressed, I got quieter

on my end. I learned him more and more, and he had a relatively big hair macows and and so I think a lot of how I approach l cutting now is just due to that bowl and the decisions I made and watching him respond to my calling. Um, and then ultimately kind of doing a mix. I guess as far as that bull's concerns, I did call to him quite regularly to get him to answer me, and I did call him in a couple of times, but

you know, the shooting opportunity just never presented itself. And then, um, I guess, just a few other bulls scattered through the years, my calls were more based on timing than they were anything else. I mean, I know, in one instance, um, I heard a bull bugling in the bottom and all I did was let out a couple of cow calls he and he crashed right in and and I killed him at nineteen yards. And you know, that's one of those days where you think elk cutting is the easiest

thing you've ever done, where the entire year that never happened. Well, as I'm you know, kind of tracking this bull around and he's alone. I think it was September twenty one, snow on the ground. I couldn't figure out why this

bull was by himself. I ran into fresh cow and calf tracks, and what I gat you know, what I kind of put together in my mind was those elk were down there feeding the cow and calf took off up the mountain, and we're ahead of this bowl, and I just happened to interject myself right in the middle, let out some perfectly time calls, and he came in and you know, died at my arrow. So I guess, you know, to sum it all up, it's it's always

a mix for me. I'll spot and stock him what I need to and and and call to him what I need to as well. Yeah, and and why I like to go out there and call. Um, I'm not above you know, if a certain bull in a certain area allows me to spot and stock, I'm not above you know, just doing what's needed. There are times and

you have to make that decision for yourself. But um, I'd much rather than come in screaming, but also recognize there's a lot of good elk hunters, you know, Brian Barney, you know, said there's a up of them that that they just don't like to touch calls for the same thing that you said, they would rather not ever let that bowl know that there, you know, they exist or

there on the ground. And I use a lot of that all up until the point where we do call, you know, we kind of call shock and awe where that bowl hopefully we haven't called for the last twenty thirty minutes, forty hour or whatever it may be. Or ideally if we don't need to call, it even locate and we won't make a peep until we're you know, forty fifty yards from them, and then we just hammer them with the bugle. If the situation allows. Now, if we can spot in stock, we might not ever make

a call and continue on. So um, I think the the ability to remain you know, uh silent and and not put you know, make that bowl aware of your your your location or your existence is to our advantage no matter what we're hunting, no matter what approach we're gonna take. Yeah, and there could be ways where you know, there's there's multiple ways to to kill an elk when when everything's right, and I think it just comes down

to what you have confidence in. If me and you were hutting the same bowl, you know, I might choose to just stuck in where you might choose to start your playbook at him. And that's just you know, the difference between two guys hunting elk. And you've got to do what you're what you're confident in in the end, whatever you think is going to give you the best chance of success. Yep, yep. Develop your own strategy, your own skill set, what you're confident in, and and and

rock that. In closing, trying if you had one tip to help l hunters be successful this year, what would it be? I think my tip is mostly I guess a mental tip, and that just because I've seen it go the other way so many times and to try and harness this whole the el cunning success is tough, and so I just think if if a person, especially if they're new at L cutting, if you can get if you can gain confidence from the things that this

is necessarily didn't go your way. So the line between you know, when you have that close encounter, the line between success and not being successful is so thin. Sometimes it's you know, you set up barely wrong. Sometimes you could have done everything right and the bowl just you know, just came in at at the wrong spot. Uh. But just if you're able to just take a step back that stuff that's frustrating where you think maybe that was your opportunity and that was your chance and you let

it get away. If you can harness that and use that to gain success or gain confidence and excuse me, you're gonna be a whole lot better elk hunter because of it. If you can figure out, you know, look back on that and tweak your set up a little bit, figure out what you need to do to kill that elk. But take that, you know, memory as as a positive and not a negative. I think that you know, that helps. That helps me out when I kind of figured out

to do that, and I think it will other people too. Yeah, that's a great tip and and something that that I did as well. I really appreciate having you on here, trent Um. It's been a great com station. Good luck this fall, and as always appreciate talking el hunting with you. Thanks Jason. I hope I hope people can get out of this. I hope I didn't stutter too much, and I hope it was enjoyable for everybody to listen. I know you're you're you're good. We appreciate having you, Trent,

and uh, well, we'll catch up later. Thank you. M hm hm