Elk calling world champions. Yeah, they can call, but can they hunt? Today's guest is R M. E F World Champion in runner up, But that isn't why I have him on the show today. He's a great, great elk hunter. He's very accomplished and skilled. Tony Gilbertson out of Vernonia, Oregon. Welcome to the show, Tony. Hey, thanks Jason, I appreciate this opportunity. Yeah, how's everything going down there in Oregon? So far? It's not too hot. I know you're on
the coast um, but how's everything down there? I was stilling good, Uh, it's it's been hot that in Vernounia. It's I mean we're in the foothills of the coast range, so it stays a little bit cooler and it cools down more at night. So we just opened up the one does at night and we're good to go. No, it's always good. I'm I'm ready for fall. Yeah, ye aren't we? All? It's closing in quick. And do you have any big hunts lined up for this fall? So, with Oregon changing a lot of the units that we
hunted over nichean oregan to control longly. Um, you know I can hunt Roosevelt's I can be in the woods from my house and about you know, ten or fifteen minutes, and I can hunt every day after work if I want to, and on the weekends, and then usually take a week off. So I'm just gonna have the general season O t C tag for Saddle Mountain Unit in Scapoose Unit. And then I was fortunate enough to get a a tag in Idaho, so I'm looking forward to that. Nice nice you canna take a week off and go
over to Idaho, then yeah, I'll hunt. I'll hunt the whole the whole season here in Oregon, and then probably the last five or six days I'll take off and head over to Idaho. Nice, nice grats on that tag.
And Idaho seems to be getting tougher and tougher every year where um, you know, it used to be what just four or five years ago you could go to the gas station during archery season and there were all kinds of B tags left, and um, now if you don't get a low enough number or uh you know, lucky enough on December one, you're not getting any sort of tag there. So um, yeah, Idaho. I was disappointed. My son and I both got online there and and I was like eight hundred and sixty two and he
was six six thousand and some on. So I was fortunate enough to get the tag and he wasn't. And honestly, I would have rather seen him get the tag and myself, but I just didn't work out that way. So maybe next year. Yeah, we're gonna jump into some listener questions and if you have a question, um you want us to answer or one of our guests answer, send it to us at ct D at Phelps game Calls dot
Com will do our best to get get your questions answered. Um, you know, send us a message whatever it needs to be. But I kind of cherry picked this one for you, Tony. How good of a color do you need to be to colon elk in your opinion? Yeah, in my opinion, Uh, you know a lot of guys stress out about that. I've I've coached a number of people that honestly, they're they're a bit shy or um, you know, scared to
show show me what they can do. And I try to encourage them because, in my opinion, you don't have to be a world professional caller to call the ELK. I've heard I've heard some elk in the woods that that you would swear, sounded like a human uh, or they sounded horrible, and it turns out that their bulls. Uh. You know. I've got a good friend of mine that that uh, you know, isn't the isn't the most accomplished caller in the world, but you know, he calls in
bulls all the time. So I don't think it's I don't think it's as necessary to be as good a color as it is to be maybe more versatile in terms of the different sounds you can make. Yeah, I'm right there with you. You know, you don't have to be as good as you dirt Jermaine, you know myself.
And I think, you know, we may be doing a disservice to them, you know, because we make all this hunting content and we share educational videos and they get to hear, you know, some of the sounds that you guys can make and the quality of sounds that you guys can make, and I think, you know, as you said, they get a little timid, they get a little bit nervous that they can't make sounds like that or is accurative sounds like that, And then they become very timid
in the elk woods. And and to kind of piggyback on your answer, I think it's much more important to get the rest of the strategy right as far as you know, locating out, getting the wind right, getting close, and then at the end you ultimately need to have the confidence to make a call um versus you know, I'm just gonna get close and I'm gonna kind of hang out and just see what happens. You know, that's that's never a good approach. UM. You know, it may work, UM,
spot and stock may work. You know, we know a lot of successful guys that end gals that don't necessarily pick up a all. They do it a different way. But if you're going out there with the intent to, you know, run a call and call a bowl into your lap, Um, I think you need to have some confidence.
And that's why you know, some of the things, like you know, some of the calls that we've been designing lately, such as the easy sucker and the easy bugler, it's not because me or you or Dirk or you know, experienced colors that have dedicated you know, most of their lives and you know, or a large you know, a large time frame within their life and not the majority
of their life. But you know, we've dedicated a lot of time to becoming very proficient, and I honestly believe that, you know, making these calls easier for people to use
is going to give them that confidence. And we got a lot of feedback last year that's just the easy Bugler like gave them the confidence to actually go into the same areas in the same situations that they've been in the past, and and they're actually blow on the call and to get responses and to get action and to play the game like, in my opinion, was meant to be played. So that's some of the reasons, you know,
why we're running that. And uh, I honestly truly leave that somebody that can at least sound somewhat decent is better to have those people running around in the woods. That people that are blowing on a call that sound not good at all or you know, don't even resemble an Elkin. So in my opinion, it's it's not doing you know, much more harm than it is you know elks on like Elkin, so um by allowing them to to sound better, it's actually helping all of us. Yeah,
I agree with that, Jason. I was talking to a guy. I was at a birthday party over the weekend and and dufer and I was talking to a guy there that he struggles with with having a diaphragm in his mouth just because his gag reflex. And I was talking to him about the easy vehicle, and I said, you know, there's there's options out there for you. Now. You don't
have to know how to use a diaphragm. Uh. You know, these cow calls that that um that phelps and others are developing right now are uh much easier than what they you know, to use and what they used to be. And if if you can't use a diaphragm, uh, you know, the easy bugler is a fantastic option and it sounds awesome. So uh he was he was going to look into that because of that that very reason, and and he didn't have confidence, I don't think in himself, just in
talking to him. But it's just a matter of picking up the calls and and just you know, practicing. And you don't, like I said, you don't have to be a world champion elk caller, but you do need to dedicate some time to at least sound somewhat realistic and get to the point where you can you know, you don't you don't sound the same every time that you can throw some versatility in there and make the bulls or you know, make the bulls sound like or hear
you in a way that that suggests you're another ELK. Yep. And you know, there have been some situations where I don't ever want to be called in by somebody else or somebody else to feel like, you know, if they recognize us or see us. So um, there's been some situations in the last few years where I'm about ready to balance out of our calling set up. You know, we've got set up, we're doing everything we think you're like, you know, you're you're We're trying to listen and figure
out like is that a real ILK? Is that a person? Um? And And multiple times over the last five years, I would say, you know, four or five different approaches that I can remember fairly fairly well, we ended up calling an ELK that I would have at some point during that call in guess that they were a person. You know, And so I don't think, you know, quality of calls, it's more of you know, the ability, the confidence to use them, um, and then making the sounds at the
right time UM are more important. So I think we're we're both on the same page. You know, being a great color isn't a requirement. UM, it does help us a little bit. Uh, one of the strategies we like to use as mimicry. Uh. And and being a good caller gives us the ability to, like, I think I know how to make that sound, you know, because because real ilk make all kinds of different sounds, and so if I'm trying to copycat that bowl, it is nice to be able to. Oh, I I know how to
you know, manipulate the call and get that sound. But aside from that, you know, you you learn a few you know, calmus, you know estrus wines, challenge beagles, location bugles, um, and get them down. That that's all you're gonna need to head into the oak woods and find success. In my opinion, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Jason, I think you're spot on the second question from the listeners, Um, what is your approach when trying to call in a
herd bowl? It's fine, and I'm gonna twist us a little bit or put some direction to that as far as what you're calling strategy, like if you could, you know, bottle up your strategy, put it in a little cookie cutter approach. Um, give us, give us that answer. Yeah, well, I think when you you mentioned mimicry earlier, Jason, Um, you know you know my approach when it comes to herd balls. I mean, number one, you've got the problem
with with calling sideline bowls or spikes or something like that. Uh, you know, to where those balls come in. And then you you know, you've got to kind of, at least in my opinion, kind of tone it down a bit or ut up until they kind of move off, so you don't so you don't spook them and they bump the herd and you know, off they go. But you know, I think for me, I think the most important thing is to get in close and just get aggressive with them.
You know, if that herd bull as a herd bull for a reason, and if you if you're really shy and tivid with that bull and you keep a distance from him, he's he's not going to pay you any attention at all. So until you get up close enough to where that bull thinks you're a threat, and you can actually you know, make some sounds that that gives him the impression that that you know, you're moving in on his herd and you're you know, there's a chance you're gonna take his cous from him. You're not gonna
have much success. So in my opinion, you know, locating that herd, getting in close, trying to mimic what he's what he's saying. Uh, you know, sometimes they'll get in there close and and and do some do some raking, and a lot of times I'll be enough to just you know, push him over the edge and have him come in. But getting in there thrown out a challenge vehicle, maybe a bulls calling cows vehicle, something that that gives him the impression that that you're a threat is is
probably your best option. Yeah, I'm I'm on the same page with you. There's well Tony Um. Yeah. I always use the analogy I think I've already used on the podcast, but it's always worth kind of you know, painting the picture again. You know, I always try to try to picture like if you were sitting at the back of a restaurant with your wife having you know, a nice dinner whatever it may be, and somebody walks in the front door and yells at you like, hey, mr, I'm
gonna whoop your butt. I'm coming to take your wife, you know, because that's basically what we're doing out in the Elk woods. You would be you'd have the ability to take your wife and maybe go out the back door, you know, defend, you know, whatever you need to do,
you know, try to avoid the situation. Right. But if that same person or elk doesn't say anything to you and tell you, you know, gets right to the edge of your table, they've now taken away that like fight or flight opportunity to even You've now got like fight to deal with, right, that's all all you have left. And so yeah, very aggressive, get very very close. Um. One thing I've always noticed, uh, you know, the majority of her both some of them come in all sorts
of piste off. After you get close, get tight, you know, do some challenge beagles, um whatever it may be. Um, you know, there are some that are just like, well that was easy. It shouldn't have been that easy. But there are ones that are you know, they won't beagle, you know, right after your vehgle they'll maybe veagle ten seconds later, and it just kind of frustrates me because it's like, well, hey, what you know, answer me, I just made a bveagle. You obviously could hear me, but
you're kind of just ignoring me. You're you're doing your own thing. And on those sorts of bowls, I always believe that I can go in and turn the temperature up on that bowl. He's kind of lazy, He's kind of lacks a daisical and his veagling. He doesn't really seem to care that I'm in the area, and I typically my mind kind of arts to put that bowl in the category of probably an older bull. You know, he's not responding to everything. He's not he doesn't have
a care in the world. He doesn't care if I walk into his herd because he's gonna whip my butt when I get there, you know. So he's a little a little more relaxed in his responses. And those are those elk that you know, those bulls. I want to get in close and I want to slowly turn the temperature up, like just annoy him. I want to pester him, and I wanna That's kind of what's going through my head.
That if we play this game of pestering him enough that we can eventually turn the temperature up and you know, hopefully call him away from his herd. Um. It's just very very tough. We're reversing nature here. Uh. You know, a bull doesn't want to leave his cows his hair, and whether it's two or three cows, whether it's ten
or fifteen, he's got his for sure thing. And we're trying to reverse nature by you know, he beagles for you know, and his beagles are allowed for a reason like that's to announce to the cows like hey, I'm over here, come join us, versus us trying to reverse that and say hey, we're one lonely cow over or leave your other fifteen cows, or we're one bowl over here, leave your fifteen cows to come check us out. Like
that's that doesn't make a lot of sense. Um, So yeah, get close, you get aggressive, um, and and try to turn the heat up on that bowl. Is kind of what's going through my head is when I know it's a hurd bull. Yeah, I agree that those bulls that have a lot of confidence, like like you said that that just like just like in a you know, human nature. You get some guy that that that's confident in his abilities, and and you know he's going to kick your butt.
Like like you said, you know, what's what's the reason? What why why should he go and and fight you? Why not make you come to him and actually have him get a visual of you or at least that's I mean, that's going through his mind. Right, He's gonna stay here with his cows until he sees sees you,
and and it can acknowledge that you're a threat. But you know, I've I've taken one thing that has worked for me in the past two is you know, you get those bulls that that just you know, they're kind antagonistic and they just they you know, they'll they'll bi vehicle back at you, but but they kind of stay
off in the distance, just around their cows. And I've taken off and and just ran at them and and just you know, screaming my head off at him, thinking that okay, here he comes, you know, and and sometimes just the sound of you running through the brush at
that bowl. Now, you know, on the coast here, it's it's probably more obvious that you're you know, you're running through all that stuff trying to get to them, but and and they can't see you coming, so maybe it's a little easier that way than it is in some of the open country. But you know, that's a that's a technique that I've used before too, that that's that's been effective. Yeah. Yeah, when you close that distance faster than they expect, that kind of puts them on tilt.
And ye can can work work really well there. So if any of you once again have any of your own questions you want us to try to answer, to tackle or give our own spin, make sure to email us at ct D at helps game Calls dot com. Will do our best to give you an answer. Now we're going to kind of jump into the discussion here for today. And I promised I didn't pick you Tony to go over this, but you know these topics. But what we're gonna talk about today is a lot of
the mistakes that we've made over time. We've mentioned it before. We kind of came from, you know, the times where there wasn't you know, multiple elk hunting courses or elk hunting information on the internet. Um, there weren't even forums and stuff like I got on the internet to you know, check my emails back when when I started to learn to elk hunting. UM. You know, so we we learned a lot on our own and and a lot of
that came from trial and air. So today I'm just going to kind of go through, you know, some of the major mistakes we made early on, or some of the same mistakes that we made over and over. And we were talking a little bit before the podcast, UM, some of the mistakes that we're still making that UM, you know, for one reason or another, we we think one way or something happened one way in the past, and UM, we make a mistake and it doesn't turn
out in our favors. So we're gonna kind of go through some of that, UM, walk through mistakes we've made and kind of see, you know, how you've learned from that. And and the other thing I want to I want to preface this whole conversation a little bit tony with
it is l cunning. We're doing our best to try to put you know, our experience together, but I am humbled every year that what has happened in the past, what's happened, you know, multiple times in the past, then very you know, the next twenty setups are callin's, it may fail. And so even I don't want to call these low odds, you know, or everything we do has low odds, but there's always a risk that these are wild animals. It's not always gonna work like it did
last time or the time before, shoot, even ten times ago. Um. You know, you got to try to read the situation, make your best judgment call, and go with it. Um. And so we're gonna we're gonna give some information here, but but I wanna, you know, preface it with it's not gonna work, you know, fellproof every time. We're always gonna screw up. Yeah, elk or unpredictable. If they were predictable,
this would be easy. Yeah. If they couldn't smell, if they were blind, and if they did the same thing every day, we'd be all right, yeah, all right, I'd be a lot more successful. Yeah. So yeah, we're gonna talk about, um, some of the knowledge we've gained through the mistakes we've made over the years. And uh, I would like, as I mentioned, some of the repeat mistakes I personally have made over the years. So we're gonna start off with scouting. UM. I used to do a
whole lot more scouting than I do now. But some of the mistakes, you know, we we made scouting. Go ahead and give some of your you know, scouting mistakes, and they'll kind of fold that up with some of the stuff that you know, I did really really wrong and some of the stuff I do now that I think is you know, makes a lot more sense now they think about it. Yeah, I think, well, I mean, I don't know if this is a mistake or's just
a matter of not having enough time. But you know, you mentioned not not doing as much or you to do a lot more scouting than what used to now, I think I think just being out in the woods more frequently on a regular basis. Um, you know that that can help. But you know I I do. I do use online maps, and I will I'll get online and I'll look at areas where I think will hold elk.
You know, it's the cover, the feed, the water, you know, betting areas likely likely betting areas, and uh, you know, I'll get out there before the season, and you know that that's that's one of the problems as you go
out and you scout before the season. Well, these bulls don't have cows yet, So who's to say they're going to be in that area when you get there, and then you know, there's all this sign when you get out there and you do your preseason scouting, and I have fallen trapped to just because I know that the elk are always there. I get there and they've moved on, and I spend you know, kind of what we were
talking about earlier. You spend too much time in an area just because the elk were there, you know, a month before the season, or you know, I've been in units before that have been very productive, and you know, maybe you think you don't have to do as much scouting, and you get there and you don't see sign, but you keep hunting it because it's what you're familiar with, instead of you know, branching out moving elsewhere. Um, you know that that's that's a huge mistake I've made in
the past. Yeah, so I'm the same way. Scouting was almost a detriment to to my elk hunting when I was younger, and all I'll kind of explained, we didn't hunt the mountains. I grew up hunting, you know, coastal Washington, clear Cut country, you know, Warehouser cuts every forty five years, and so we have a it's a lot different than the majority of people get to hunt. But what we would do in two thousand and eight nine, I said, you know, I'm gonna go up in the mountains. I'm
gonna go up in the Cascades. I'm gonna go do some mountain hunting off my back. And so we had taken three or four different scouting trips into a wilderness area. We're seeing elk every time, lots of elk um And so what we did in between these scouting trips, in between seasons, I would go home and like plan my entire hunt from the computer based on what we were seeing out there, and when I got my feet on the ground, for some reason in my mind, that hunt
was going to work out at some point. Versus if I hadn't have went and scouted and just went back into that area, I would be more fluid and I would have to go find where those elk where I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't go to where I thought the elk were gonna be. And so that was one of the big um, you know, issues with scouting and
how it would kind of backfire on me. Is I had a plan in my head on where I was going to kill the elk and how our morning hunts would go and how our night hunts would go, and it just didn't pencil out that way. Um. The other bad habit I had, uh you know, scouting, which is the same thing. On these hunts. We would go see herds of a hundred elk, you know, on a high alpine basin. You know, the bulls would be off in a different area. We'd have bull uh you know, all
over our camera. As I would go look for elk on my scouting trips, and as you just mentioned, um they that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be there, uh in in the fall when seasons open up. That doesn't mean that the bulls are gonna leave and go find cows.
And so one thing I would do is go look for elk, which now I tell people, don't go look for go look for elk signs and and my favorite, UM signed to go find out there is one to two year old rubs, you know, whether they're their needles are all dropped or uh you know, if they've got
red needles on them. I love to see that sign and I love to see multiple years of those rubs because what that lets me this, you know, figure out without even seeing an elk, is that they're running here year after year, you know, and and it's multiple years stacked on. So there's you know, there are some strange areas I've got into where it's like, you know, the elk have swung in there for a year, They've swung in there for a week, and you know, but but
multiple years worth of rubs. It's like, all right, this is obviously an area they like to they like to go, they like to beat during the rut um. And then within those areas, I'm starting to look, you know, within where the beat in trails around those rubs, where the wallows and benches around those reubs, where they gonna be able to bed in close proximity to those ReBs, because a lot of times the rubs are in fairly close
proximity to their bedding areas. Um, it's kind of a little different than how I used to scout, but I want to find rubs first and then find some of these other features food cover the trails, the way they're getting in and out of there, you know, wallows where they're gonna get their water and kind of planning that hunt around there and then not scouting. I'm gonna go show up, uh you know, during season and and go locate those elk and figure them out, versus you know,
putting all my eggs in the basket from from scouting. Yeah, I've I've done the same thing, Jason. I. You know, we we've founded areas around around home here for years, and we know that the elk are always there, but
so do a lot of other people. And you know when they get even before the season, you get enough guys out there scouting around, getting more humans sent in there, even some guys going out the preseason trying to you know, calcular a bugle and uh, I mean how many times if if you used to if you used to hunt on the coast over a clear cut, how many times you've seen guys pull up in a in a pickup truck and bugle off a landing, you know, over a
clearer cut down into September or something. You start to educate those bulls and and they get you know, they're not dumb animals. So I you know, I've made a mistake of spending too much time where there's too much pressure instead of moving on just because I know the elk are there, but they're so hard by that time to call in, they just they head for the deep dark, you know, rebroad patches and stuff that's so thick that you can't get them out of there, and they don't
come out until af you're dark. So uh, you know, I I've got to get to the point where you know, you you recognize that sooner and then move on to a different area, hoping that you can get into some different elk that are maybe not as haven't been quite as pressured. Yep. And and I fall I fell into that same trap where you know, we would plan our hunt, um you know, we would pack in food, drop it off, and we would be locked into an area. And now I'm to the point where you know, people might call
me crazy. And and maybe if the ball was big enough for something that really kind of you know, struck my fancy and I really wanted to try to harvest a ball, I might stay. But if I get to an area and you know the elk are there and they don't really want to play the game. We've all ran into those herds where it's just there, there's elk and I can see him and I can hear them, but they just don't want to play the game. I
even pull the plug on those those situations fairly quick. Uh. You know, similar to you, I grew up around home where the elk are in the same spots year after year. Uh. It's a little different when you you go out of state or you know, go south or or go east from where we're at where, But but I'm in that same boat, like I want to go find find an elk. That's that's you know, reared up, rutting, you know, willing to biggle at anything, and um, you know that's that's
a that's that situation. And I'm looking for personally, is to go find elk that are willing to play the game and play the game, you know, on my terms. Um So yeah, that was kind of our our second point that kind of rolled right out of scouting was when you show up you don't find elk or you don't find elk that that want to play the game,
and then not moving and kind of staying there. So I always recommend having multiple plans, or if you did your scouting right, you should have you know, ten different plans, like in in any situation. Um, you know, if we showed up like you said, on a landing or a road, or somebody got up before he and beat you to an area, I didn't have one little bit of anxiety.
I didn't fret one bit. I just pulled up to you know, and I went to Spot B. You know, God willing, hopefully there's enough light that I can get there. I'm a little nervous. But you know some people that that could that could script the whole day, you know. You know, I have no hunters around here that they would just probably go home, and that's not the right. There's elk out there, um, you know that are that are ready to be hunted, and so always have you know,
multiple backup plans, um. You know on x maps, you know all the mapping software that's out there, Like it's very easy to have, you know, a backup spot, a backup road, a backup canyon to to go run into if somebody else is in your spot or for some reason, your plans don't you know, pan out like like you thought they would in your head. Yeah, and you don't have to go very far on the on the on the coast range over here to get into an area
where there may be other elk that didn't hear you. Uh, you know, because it is so dense and the sound doesn't travel over here. You could have elk a drainage over uh and which isn't that far over here, and they wouldn't have even heard you. So I think you're
right moving moving to a different area. If you've got got a bunch of guys in an area, or you've got elk that just simply just stand there and bugle back at you, but never ever commit coming in and you know, wanting to fight, then you have to make that decision early on to move on. And that that is a that's a mistake that I've made, and it's a mistake that I continue to make, especially if there's a bowl in there that kind of you know, entices me to stick around it longer and try harder. Ye
next mistake and this comes from me being very lazy. Um, you know a little bit of being a rifle hunter that if I did, you know early on scare something that I was just gonna shoot the elk anyways, um, trying to cheat the wind and I'm gonna put you on the spot here. I don't know if there's a writer or wrong answer. Um in your opinion, how far do you have to be away from an elk for
them not the smellion? I know there's lots of different situations, but um in your opinion, Like, if you're gonna make a circle around the elk, you know, the winds, the winds that you're back, how far? How big of a circle you make? In Tony? Uh, you know, I don't know what the right answer is, Jason, But I I mean, I make a as big a circle as I can and and still be able to make contact with them, you know, so so I can still hear them. Uh. You know, the wind, especially over here, doesn't seem to
you know, blow in one direction very long. It just swirls and swirls. So I want to I want to try to get to the point where I'm I'm in a good position in terms of wind. But but you know, still be able to stay within a distance so that I can hear them, because they could move off if I get out too far, and I wouldn't be able to know, you know, I wouldn't know that they've they've moved on by that time. And like I said, it's so thick and dance over here. They don't move very
far before you can't hear them. So I mean it's you know, maybe even a couple of hundred yards if I can still hear them, you know, in a situation if you're along a creek or something like that, to be closer, because it's just um, you know, you you wouldn't be able to hear him. Now if I am in a creek, or if I'm in a position where i'm you know, I can get to a creek and I can work my way up that creek. I think.
You know, what I've noticed is that those creeks seem to push that wind kind of in your favor if you're walking up the creek. So sometimes it just depends on on where you're at in relations to the elk too. Yeah, And and I I always I've always just kind of thought three to four yards was kind of I wanted to make a circle at least that big. And a lot of it depends on, you know, if it's going down into a creek or if it's all on the
same plane or the same hillside. Um. But now, and I I don't hunt the coast ranges, is you know, much at all anymore. I have it in the past, But I think a lot of that comes from hunting the coast ranges that you can't here as well, so you're a little bit more reluctant to just take off and get you know, without it outside of earshot from these elk um. And then I'm a very impatient hunter.
And so one of the things that I always going through my head is I know that that elk was just right there, you know, at that at that point in time. But if it takes me twenty or thirty minutes because I've now got to back up over a ridge, you know, go down the back side and come back over, I just I wait, you know, I'm always weighing that risk on how long is that going to take versus
the risk of me getting winded before it ever gets started. Um, you know, the more patient me as I get older, I'm starting to you know, to hike back up the ridge and and make bigger circles and um, you know. And it depends on the time of day and where the elk are going, and what their plans are and how fast they're moving. You know, all that's going to to kind of tie in um to to just how directive approach and how risk I'm gonna be with with the wind. But that's one thing I made a whole
bunch of mistakes on is because I was lazy. Oh I think I can just go through here and then you know, the next thing you hear is a stampede of elk running in the opposite direction. Um. So now nowadays I try not to ever cheat the wind if at all possible, or have a very very high uh you know, I've got a high certainty that I will not get winded. Um. You know, so that usually involves
a five yards circle if if possible. Yeah, I mean, and that's a good point, Jason, because I you know, I'm so used to hunting the coast range that you know when you do get over and you know on the east side where it's it's more open, maybe not quite as thick, and you can see further. Uh. I think that does give you the ability to increase the distance and still keep tabs on where they're at. So
I think you're right. I mean, if if you can you know, three four or five hundred yards or something like that to to give you that buffer is good. And sometimes the train is gonna dictate that, right. I mean, if you're if you're in broken up, if you're in broken up terrain, um and and it's relatively close, U, it's easy to get over those ridges and kind of get around on the back side of and move around and maybe get get in closer round detected. Yeah. And
and that kind of goes into our next point. Um. Our next mistake that I used to make a lot is once again cheating being seen. You know, I've always put the elk senses, you know, their noses number one, you know, not even a close race, but number two is their site. Um. They're pretty good at seeing, they can hear pretty good, but you know, there's natural sounds out there, natural animals. So number two is I used to always you know or kind of piggybacks on trying
to cheat the wind, is trying to cheat their eyesight. Um, I would make an approach or as we just mentioned, if we're over east where the vegetation is in this stick where me and you grew up hunting, or you still do hunt a lot, um, I always try to avoid, you know, being seen by the elk um or even
you know, unless we're a long ways away. Or I've got once again got confidence in it because I've found that every you know all that this isn't I was making when I used to think the elk Wutton sem me or I'm far enough away that the elk Winton care, we would get picked off and then it would be impossible. They might not bug you off like when um they win to you, but it would be very, very tough to call those elkin to the point where, um, nowadays, I just don't want to be seen by the elk.
I want to surprise him. I want to do the shock and awe, you know, whether it's calling or whether it's being seen. Um, I just I want to avoid being seen by elk, which you know once again, on the west side coastal stuff, it's easy because you got brush and vegetation and timber and jack firs everywhere. Versus east side it's a little tougher. Yeah, No, I completely agree. I in fact, I started I started carrying a decoy
for that reason when I'm in an open terrain. But you know what I mean, I've i've again I think, you know, not not every elk is the same amount, every situation is the same. I've called him. I've called him bulls before that that saw me or saw something at least and maybe they didn't make out enough of me to to really you know, give them pause. But you know they kind of run off of ways, like
you say, and you can't call him back in. But but you know, I think for the most part, you know, like you said, if if they win your games over uh, if they see UH, they're gonna be a lot more cautious if anything else, Even even if they do kind of still hang out there, they're gonna be a lot more cautious because they saw something that wasn't quite right in their mind, and they're gonna be very careful in terms of of you know what, what the how close
they get to whatever that perceived threat might be. For sure. UM next is maybe you know, I get to go to a lot of sportsman shows, You got to talk to a lot of hunters, get a lot of emails. UM, I feel that more mistakes may be made while setting up UM for that call in than than anywhere else. And an archiol hunters, UM, you know, in the process of trying to kill an elk Uh. You know, here's kind of the atypical story is you know, I had this bull fired up. I went and set up and
they're showing me a video on their phone. Is is we're going through this whole storytelling and what you'll end up seeing is a bull that hangs up at like seventy year eight yards and won't commit and and you'll see a flash and or maybe the bull will stay there for a little bit and then the bull loses interests and turns away, maybe bugles a little bit before he goes off, kind of one last come show yourself,
he'll turn away and leave. Um. It kind of piggybacks on what we said earlier is we're trying to reverse nature. And when that gets to the point where you should see you, um, you better be within shooting range. Um. So, when setting up, I feel that you need to set up either on vegetation breaks because a lot of times they will go from you know, thick cover if they're coming out of their bedding, or you know, thinner cover
if they're going from food to betting. UM. I like to set up within forty yards of either side of that. And because what that gives me is when they get to that chain engine vegetation, we're gonna have a shot,
and then the same thing with terrain. If I want to be within forty yards of that terrain break So when that bowl can finally get his eyes up to a point where he should be able to see the cow with the bull calling to him, I want to be able to, uh, you know, shoot at that time because the time that bowl is gonna hold up at that exact location, Like I could almost draw an X
on the map, like that thing's gonna hold up here. Um. So that's one of the tips I have, you know, when going to set up, you know, use the terrain and use that vegetation to your advantage. Because there were a lot of times, um, you know, especially like setting
up on meadows. When I started hunting the high country stuff, I thought the best thing ever was to set up right on the edge of a meadow, you know, be it be in the timber, have a wide open meadow out in front of me, because guess what, there's no breash in my way, there's no sticks that are gonna deflect, and guess what, I very I think one time in my life so far, I have got a bowl to run wide open through a meadow and actually get to
the other side where we could have ever shot it. Yeah. No, I've experienced the same thing and I've done the same thing that numerous times. I mean, this is kind of going back to what you said Earlily, kind of when you when we started talking here, Jason, Um, you know it, we didn't have the same kind of resources that are available now, and and I didn't have anybody that really taught me anything about our tree. And it was all
by trial and are so so. Not only did I set up on the edge of of clearings thinking that I was going to call a bull and across an open meadow, but you know I would I would set up, you know, going back a long time now, I didn't want that help to see me, so I'd actually set up behind a bush or a tree or something like that, and thinking that that that elk was gonna maybe walk
past me and I was going to get a shot. Well, I mean that that just doesn't happen, right, I mean, trust your camel, get in front of getting get in front of the tree or the brush or something like So you've got open lanes and for me over here on the coast, it's because it is so thick. It
is more about terrain. Uh. You know, I've I've called you know, I've set up in the wrong place many times, and you you call a bull in and they come up over this little rise and they get up there just far enough to where they can peek over that that little riser and look and see, and you've got no shot at all. So you know you're exactly right getting up there, uh, where you're going to have an
open shot. Not only not only with you know, open shooting lanes at least on the coast range, but having having that opportunity to be in an area where that bull isn't going to hold up, you know, do do some calling and and get up there a ways so that that bowl doesn't you know, pinpoint your location and and that way you've got an opportunity there. Yeah. I I can still remember the very first year I ever archery hunted, and you were talking a little bit about
setting up in the brush. I was super inexperienced, and I thought, Hey, the best place to be is the
jump in this pile of brush. I you know, for some reason, I remember there being some BlackBerry briers, you know, just finishing out, and it was just a tangled mess that we have here on the coastal, you know, vegetation, and you know, the last thing you think about is that you're gonna have, you know, whatever of arrow hanging out the front of your bow that you can't move and and you can be as careful as you want, but that dang arrow was like getting wrapped up and
then the broadhead gets hung up on something and you can't move. So if you need to move, because unless I just happened to be pointing in the right direction, like you've got to figure out how to draw the boat, you gotta figure out how to get it pointed in the right direction. And yeah, from then on, like I don't even similar to that. I don't even set up on my knees anymore, Like I am. I am on
my feet at all times. Um, you know that I will set up on my knees if if for some reason, there's like a level of brush that you know, if we're in big timber where the brush lines like at three or four feet, and I don't want to shoot through it, and I want to shoot under it. But for the majority of the time, I'd say I'm setting up all my feet being fairly mobile in front of the brush or and you know, alongside of a big tree is typically my favorite set up, you know, either
behind me or to my direction. That gives me a little bit of coverage. Um and and yeah, so I was Yeah, I learned the hard way on multiple balls that first season of Do not set up in the brush because they pick you off trying to move or get a shot. Yeah, for sure. And and and you mentioned, you know, setting up on your knees. I used to do that too, because it's comfortable. You know, I could get down there and I could stay that stay in that position for a long time. But you know, those
bulls will come in from various directions. And and just because you're calling to a bowl and you know where that bulls at doesn't mean a bull is gonna not gonna come in silent from a different direction. So you have to be mobile, You have to be able to turn.
You have to get that that you know, whatever that brushes or you know, sticks or twigs or whatever it's on the ground, get it cleaned out so that when you do have to move or you do have to stand up, if you're knelt down, that you're not making any noise when you do stand up, and and breaking those branches off when you get into position and you've got shooting lanes. You know, I was chuckling earlier because you mentioned something. I thought your arrow getting hung up
in the brush. I can't tell you how many times I've done that. You just not paying attention and that broadhead catches something and it just it'll either pulled off the string or it just clanks up against your eyes or something. And and then you know your your hands over because I heard it yep, yep, And um, you know that that brings you. But you don't know where
the elks coming from. Um. I like to, you know, visualize all my shooting lanes, Like if an elk is to come in here and he goes left, right, right to left straight at me, like where are my shooting lanes? And then one thing I like to always, you know, explain to people is and you know it mainly be one or two times because you're gonna figure it out. But I learned the hard way is a right handed shooter, I can turn you know, we can all sit here
listen to this podcast. You can turn over your left shoulder and I can turn eighty degrees, you know, almost to my left, and I can get a decent shot off that direction. But if you ask me to turn about twenty degrees to my right and open up, you know clockwise, I can't shoot anything over there. So I learned really quick that I'm gonna put like my left shoulder, if not even shade my back to where I think that bowl is gonna come from. And then that gives
me the whitest ability is shooting. There's just little things where you know, I don't have to move my feet that way, I don't have to like change my stance. Um, you know some of those things on shooting lanes, and then you know, pick out multiple ones. I always recommend take the time before you there are situations where elk are coming fast and they're not giving you a lot of time. But always try to range, you know, three
or four trees, not a bunch of them. Um, I try to get and then try to draw some circles and some zones out in front of me. But you know, take the time, figure out your shooting lanes, what your distances are going to be, and then kind of you know, settle in there. Yeah, that's that's a good tip right there. And then the biggest mistake. I feel we We've talked about it up top on some of you know, calling
the herd bulls in. We've we've did this enough. We've I'm sure you've called a bulling from a half mile away. But the if you were to start, if you were a betting guy, I'm going to bet that you would want to get as close as possible before you started calling or tried to call a bull in every time. UM. And that's that's my biggest thing when people go to
set up as they don't get close enough. Um. As much as I'd like to tell people, I call bulls in from miles away, and you know, blah blah blah, whatever it might be, the fact is, if I can get within a hundred yards, I think I'm two times as likely to call a bulling from a hundred yards as I am from two hundred. And you know, four times as likely to call it in from two hundred as I am from three hundred. You know, it's it's
exponential the closer you get. And you know, I've always joked joked about getting a T shirt made like a short distance Elk Coller because we do a lot of you know, we cover a lot of the ground with our feet and only use those calls to do, you know, to manipulate those elk and get them to travel very
very you know, short distance as hopefully. Yeah. No, I I agree, I you know, I hear every year it's either it's either guys will set up and you know, in the brush somewhere and they're they're calling and that bull is calling back at him, but but they never close the distance. That bull will stand out there, you know, a hundred yards or more and just bugle back and forth at if if all you want to do is just bugle, he's happy to do that. Or tree stand hunters.
I there's this one area that we hunted over easton, Oregon where this guy sets up with a tree stand. He'll sit up there and bugle his brains out, and those bulls are bugling all the way around him, and they just stay out there. He never gets down out of his tree stand to to try to close the distance on And like I said, those bulls, if if, if you, if you're not perceived, is this some kind of a threat, They'll just they'll just stand there and and bugle at you. I mean, why would they why
would they want to come closer if you're no threat. Yeah, it's you know, I've always told that if you don't become the threat, you're literally just saying, hey, I'm over here, and he's saying, hey, I'm over there. You know, I think you guys are literally we're just part of the game where it's just letting everybody know where that's that's what they do every day. Yeah. Um. The next one,
which I feel is definitely a coastal thing. You know, thick vegetation, thick timber, lots of brush, no real openings unless you're above a clear cut or you know, on a road system. Is calling too small? Um, let me give me a little bit on kind of what your thought is, you know, volume wise, and and you know how you call to to elk out in the woods. So so usually you know, first thing in the morning
when I'm out, you know, a hiking in the dark. Uh. You know, bulls at least around here seem to be way more vocal, uh in the dark because they feel safer. So and I'll go out and throughout a locate bugle and you know, if I get something to respond, then I'll work my way that direct and until the sun comes up, you know where you can see and you can see your pins and if if you did come in,
you could actually have a good shot opportunity there. Um, But you know, as thick as this stuff is, and and you have to get close to them to be perceived as that threat. And the closer I get, I mean I will start out mimicking them and if that works, great, you know, And I've had that work a number of times where you mimke that bowl and they don't like it and they come in. But if they don't, then
you're the one that has to make the move. Otherwise they're just gonna stand out there and and you kind of get in that game back and forth. But um, you know, I I go in as close as I can, and I'll rip off a challenge Google, I'll throw a lip ball in there, uh you know, big, you know, grunts and chuckles and just as loud as I can, and and just start stomping on the ground and tearing up brush. And I mean that's that's my strategy. And I mean it does work. They do come in closer.
But you know a lot of times over here we don't have all the greatest shooting lines, but but I I found that if if if you get in their face and and you get more volume out of that tube, and and that call that oftentimes is what kind of triggers that that reaction or that response for them to to finally say I've had enough and I'm coming in and we're going to fight. Yep. And and I got
a couple of examples. So one reason when I'm locating, I want to call big is my purpose for letting those located bugles, as we just said, is it's a game of hey, I'm over here, and then you hopefully you know, you know, waves across the at the canyon like, hey, I'm over here. You know, I'm just I want that vehicle to reach as many elk in that canyon as possible.
You know, people can call me lazy or whatever, but I've already put the time into walk that ridge, or walk that trail system, or bike in a certain road. I might as well let my bugle covers absolutely much you know, ground as possible. I don't feel and you know, you can overlocate um. You know, if they're there, they'll answer you. If not, then you'll keep driving. Buy or if they heard you and didn't answer, then it is what it is. We didn't necessarily, you know, educate them
because they didn't smell us, they didn't see us. Um. You know, now now driving up and and and calling a different thing, I think that can educate elk. But so we're calling as big as possible. And then the other thing is, you know, similar to you, I'm fortunate to get the hunt with some great colors and what I would consider some very loud colors at the very high end. Um. You know, we don't set up the color too far back. He's usually you know, maybe thirty
yards max. But I've got colors, you know, if I'm shooting and not doing any calling, uh, that are cranking on bagles as big as they can be. And and it's not that loud compared to the real look that's coming in. You know that that elk can rip off, you know, a bigle at fifty yards. And my buddy, who I thought was a loud color, doesn't sound half of you know, half is that big half the volume. And so when you're out there in the woods, no matter how loud you think you are, you're just not
competing with the real thing. You know, you don't got the lung capacity of a nine pound animal or eight underd pound animal um. And so in my opinion, we call big um for locating to reach as much ground. And then when we're calling the elk, we call big so that they you know, once again, we're trying to be a threat and we want to be as big and nasty as we can, and I think we still fall short the majority of the time. Oh absolutely, I mean,
I mean you're exactly right. Are our lung capacity and our diaphragm just cannot make the same sounds or produce the same volume of a bull can. So I personally don't think that you can be too loud. I go through I go through a lot of diaphragms each season because number one, I ugle a lot, and secondly, when I do, I bugle hard and loud, so there's a lot of volume going through there. I try to hit those high ringing notes that that just, you know, pierce
your ear. And I want them to know that that I'm number one, I'm here, number two, I'm close, and I'm about to get in your face and we're about to have a fight. And and that's that's the goal, right, I mean, you're not out there playing paddy Cake with these bulls. You want to again be perceived as that threat, get in their face, get as loud and mean and nasty as you want to or you can, and and
that's that's the goal. Yeah, and we're onto. You know, in my opinion, the biggest mistake I made, which we I understand, Um, you know, not everybody has unlimited time or can be out there every day, is I didn't
put enough time in. Um. You know, and I'm gonna say this is is It's not a mistake necessarily, but it's one of the things that I've been able to attribute to success and continued success is I spend a lot of time out there, and for a guy that's supposed to know what he's doing, Um, there are times where I can do everything that I think is right and still screw up day after day after day. And so the only thing that's worked on my side is the you know, the additional time that that I get
to go again tomorrow or the following day. Um. So you know, if if you you know, I was there, I was a weekend warrior for a long time, or a three day weekend guy. You know, it was all I could pull off and then um, you know, started to be able to get a week to do it. And I found the you know, the more time I
could put towards it, obviously, the more success I found. Um. But that's kind of the last thing is is you know, if you don't have time, um, it just everything becomes tougher, you know, the situations have to work out, you know better. And and yeah, you know, as you said, Tony, you're you're you know, taking two weeks off hunting all the weekends, you know, nights after work. Um. I think one thing that people don't realize is people that are finding success.
You're in and year out, like any free time is being dedicated to trying to fill these tags. Because no matter how good you are, UM, nothings to guarantee when it comes to Elk Hunton, you know, And you're right, and it's just like it's like a lot of things in life, you know, Jason, is the more often you're out in the woods, that just increases your odds of
of even incidental encounters. You know, it just happened to be set up in an area just you know, glass and you're watching and the bull looks out in front of you, you know, I mean that that's luck. I think doesn't happen to me very often. But just the fact that you're out there increases your chances of being successful. And it doesn't matter how good of a hunter you are or how much time you've put in and dedicated to this sport. You can't outthink and I elk, you
can't second guess them. You're gonna make the same mistakes you're in and year out, and and just being persistent, not giving up, you know, going that extra mile when you think you know I'm done, I'm just I'm frustrated. I can't do this anymore, you know, push through it and just keep trying, because the only way you're going to be able to be successful is to be out there and and continue, you know, striving for what you love to do. You yep, And you know, I guess
that would be my advice. Um. You know, you can't necessarily control how much vacation time or what you get. But you know, we we have guys around home that or you know, what I would consider weekend warriors. But I'll see him, you know, come in at nine o'clock in the morning, and then they go back out at Fortnite, like there are elk to be killed between nine and four, Like give it you're all you know, spend time, um, you know, figure out how to hunt the middle of day,
like maximize your time out in the field. And uh, I think you're gonna find a lot more success in closing Tony. If you had to give one golden nugget to elk hunters out there, um to make them more successful, what would it be? You know? For me? Jason kind of gets back to what I was just saying. Um, you know, I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where you know, as soon as I get go from work, I can be in the woods in fifteen minutes. Um,
So spending as much time as you can. Uh, you know, perseverance will get you there, you know, Uh, picking up some calls and and even if even in the off season, just keep practicing, keep practicing and and become more versatile of those calls so that when you're out there in the woods and you're trying to mimic those bulls, that you have more calls at your disposal, more tools in the toolbox, so to speak, so that when the when the opportunity arises, you can capitalize on that. That's that's
a great tip, Tony. I really appreciate having you on. Um. Good luck this fall, and uh yeah, congrats congrats again on on the standings there at the World out Calling Championships. Another great showing by you and just kind of goes to show that you you you're pretty dang good. Well. I appreciate that, Jason very much, and good luck to you and and uh hopefully we can do this again sometime. Yeah, yeah, thanks a lot, good luck, Tony, and we'll catch up later, all right. Thanks Jason M.