Ep. 10: Finding Elk Through E-Scouting with Mark Livesay

you should be looking for. And so today we're going to dive into how to use the program to find stuff. We're probably gonna dive into the nuts and bolts of it and how to find elf. That's what everybody wants to skip to and and and kind of get the short track too. So welcome to the show. Mark, thanks for having me. Jason as good. So Mark and I are here at the Hunting Summit. It's going good. Um.

I've got to hear Mark present. And what I love about Mark is his ability to use all of the programs, not just you know, the companies that he works with. He knows the programs so well in and out. He will tell you you know what on X is best for you know, you've talked about like roads to the trailheads. You know some of these things you've talked about, like Guya is better because of the seven and a half old school topo. Um, so we want to dive into

you know, finding elk. How do you use Google Earth on X, Go Hunt Gaya, all of these programs, all of this technology. We have to make sure that whether you're coming out you know, from East on your first elk hunt ever, whether you're an experienced Western hunter just want to try a new spot, I want to to give you some of these tools to make sure when you show up that you've you've did your research. You have spots A, B, C, D and E all the way to Zee if you need them. You have what

what I would consider a hunt plan. But you've never had to, you know, leave your computer desk. So Jason thinks it's it's been a really good get to meet you over the last couple of years too. And so you know you said something about all these tools, and just before we get started, you know you don't have to use all the tools, right. Um, just like when you call ELK, you can make one sound if you just make a cow call every now and then it'll work for you, right, But that's not the way you

do it right. You use multiple versions, multiple scenarios, multiple setups,

different kinds of tactics and guys. I think when it comes to East scouting and going about finding elk, at least digitally, you've got to think that same way if you become tunnel visioned, or I call it like yesterday in the in the in the presentation I mentioned if you want to be a one dimensional elk hunter, you can be a one dimensional, But if you want to be a multidimensional and be willing to learn some new things and use the right tool for the right job,

I want to be really clear about that. I am pro all the apps. I mean, I I love on X, you know, I love go Hunt, I love Guy, I love even like base Map for lots of things. But it's like when you go to work on your car, Jason, would you only use your screwdriver? No you would not, so you don't have to use everything. I tell everyone. They're like, oh, man, I don't know about buying all

these apps, and I said, absolutely not. But what I always almost always recommend is I always I never go into the field without running two apps, so that I have a primary and a backup, so that I get a little different tope over you, Like you mentioned guy, I'm get a little different Like if I get a snow covered aerial photo layer, then the other app is more likely to not have the air the snow because they get their aerial photos from different sources. So that's

just you know, to kind of kick things off. I think that one A lot of people misunderstand me and the fact that you know, I'm pro one apper I'm really negative about I'm not. I'm really focusing on what each app excels at and I use it specifically for what it's good at. But to do that, you have to get organized. You have to get a little organized, You have to spend a little time learning the tools,

and you have to get beyond your comfort zone. People get comfortable, you know, and they start using and they just like you're talking about we're talking about ELK spots earlier. You know the spot and now you don't even need to turn on your app and blah bla. You know that's fine, but the day you moved to another one, um,

you're gonna have to you might have to. And so you know, that's kind of the way it works for me, and the way I kind of teach it is I I try to teach a multi pronged, multidimensional approach to finding out. Yeah, yeah, good And and you're getting to sit on this course. I would say me and Mark probably are in line of time what we're looking for

to what we're looking for to find ELK. And in my opinion, you only get so many days in September if we're if we're trying to you know, you can ELK October November, but specifically trying to both hunt ELK get to where they want to be during that rut. I don't want to waste even a day or two trying to find ELK. I need to show up at a trailhead being ELK because that starts that game for us. So, UM,

I'm hoping everybody can can get some great information. We're gonna jump into some user questions right off the about. If you have your own question, UM either hit us up on social, you can email ct D at phelps Game Calls dot com. UM send us your own questions. So these questions actually stemmed from some of the users and from sitting in the class yesterday. But my first the first question to you, Mark is if you can only pick one elk feature. So we're when we're talking features,

we're talking wallows, benches, burns. I don't know if we can necessarily calculator, you know, count fringes because they're in all of these areas. What would be the number one feature? Like if you can only hone in on one and say, and we all know, we were all gonna agree combinations

of these features is the most important. But if you could hone in on one, what would you say you would look for in an area Before I answer that, because I get asked that a lot, and I'm like, okay, I want to be careful about what I say here because one of the biggest things I teach in the class was exactly what I just said. If you want to be a one dimensional Elk hunner, you could expect one dimensional success, and one dimensional success for Western d

i Y public Land now is about ten percent. If you want to be a ten percent elk Kunda, then you just keep acting like a tempers at elk hunter. But when it comes to features, like you know what I'm setting in there, what I like to do. I call it stacking the odds, And basically what I mean by stacking the odds, I mean stacking these features. Right. But there are some of my favorites. So, like I mentioned, I saved the best for last yesterday and my presentation.

I like benches um and most areas and in most states. It kind of applies across the board. Like water obviously is really important in some areas and not so important in others. But benches um and the right bench location, the right bench set up, the right bench orientation, the asthma, the facing direction of the bench, the timber densities, those are all pretty consistent I found with all the places

I'm hunted elk. And one of the reasons I like benches and to have the way I evaluate benches is elk has been a lot of their time during the day in that resting period. Right. So, if you're a caller and you love calling out like I do, you uh, and of course you do, benches need to be on the top of your list because you need even if you don't approach the bench, you're gonna try to put yourself.

Like what we talked yesterday, in that transitional zone between the metal feeding are that you tried to identify and maybe a water source and maybe those benches and try to triangulate what they're gonna do. And so benches, I would say, is my number one. I mean, we've we've hunted enough country, we've walked enough. You'll be on a steep slope, you know, steep up slope, hit that bench, steep up and and why elk will bed anywhere. I've

seen them bed on slopes. They'll dig out the upside of a tree and they'll figure out a way to bed. But I would say the majority of the time, over ninety percent of the the time, those elk are gonna want to get to that bench. Um, they've got good shade, they've got better bedding area, they've got you know, for for their natural defenses. As we mentioned the way the tips the wind typically works in these flat areas, they can lay on that that downhill edge, um, look for

any danger. So it just those benches seem to attract you know, they whether it's wind, a combination of safety, um, more comfortable for the herd to land. But yeah, I would and correctly what you think in my observations of my I've been hunting out for thirty three years now and multiple states a year, so I'm an adventurer, guys.

I I know I would probably have better success if I went back and really hunted some of the amazing places I've been, right, But I rarely, rarely do because I'm always the grass is greener for me, you know, And and it's to my detriment much, but I take my lomas. I'm in new places every year all the time.

So if I've gotten good at East scouting, it's probably because out of necessity, because when you hunt three to four states a year, you can't do boots on the ground, and if you're changing spots every year in those states, you got to get good at this or you're not going to find them any elk. Right, So bench is one thing I've noticed is it's a real um You've got a real good chance if you can find these

prime bench spots. They're very historical, like you'll find years and years of rubs on the right like and when you find old new intermediate rubs, you know you're in the mecca because year after year they've used they've just these big bulls don't get big by just running around

laying in new spots all the time. They have picked these bench areas very strategically right, and as long as the pressure remains consistent or what they're used to dealing with, you can expect to find them there a lot of times, do you agree? I mean? And and just just to make sure everybody understands what we're talking about benches. UM, Let's say you have a two thousand feet you know ridge from the crick bottom to the top. We're not talking about flat top ridges. We're not talking about flat

levels in the creek. We're talking about in And I would prefer and I know marks the same way cause I sat through your course. I want that bench to be on Ideally, my ideal benches on a north slope or north northwest northeast. It's over halfway up, and it's got pretty decent timber on it, um if possible. And and the reason I feel is that they can easily jump over to the south slope to feed if they

need be, if that's where their food's at. Um. It keeps them cool, cool throughout the day everywhere that we get the elk hunt in the northern hemisphere. Um. And and it's just that's my ideal bench. And and when I show up to an area, if i've if I've looked at it, that's one of the first spots I'm gonna go hit, just to make sure they're elk in

the area. I can prove it through that. Now, you don't want to go in steak up their bedding area, blow it up right off the bat, but you want to go investigate around it, make sure there's tracks going in and out of it. See see what's around you know, so on benches too, you know you we mentioned all these tools. So because he's it's really important to understand that all of the hunting apps. And we're not gonna talk. I mean, I'm not gonna get into anyone particular. I'm

just because they're all. They're all I mean to me, they're just their tools of the trade. But all topographic maps are not created equal, right. Some are more relaxed, some are more summarized, some are more the lines are more smoothed out. So when it comes to breaking down benches, now,

some of these what I call modified or adjusted topography maps. Um, they're perfect for a lot of things, right, But when it comes to finding benches, particularly, I like to look at the seven point five minute USGS tobomap with the finest index contours and the finest contra lines I can find, because some of these elks, like you said, they'll kick

out of bed. Everybody's always looking at that giant mega bench, you know, on that Well, if you see a giant mega bench, so has a lot of other hunters when they're doing their east gutting. So I now I don't I'm not saying I won't go to those places, but I'm also looking for these supplemental micro benches that are close to other features. Maybe they got a water, maybe they gotta look like they've got a drainage run through them, or maybe one of my we talked about this in

the course in the President. One of my favorites is when benes are staircase like you've got a bench and then it's a little bit of a steep and then another bench and another steep, and if you have to have any kind of drainage in there, that even adds more field to the fire. And like you said, if that bench is halfway to three quarters the way up the top, that's even better. So basically what we're saying

here is a bene is not always a bench. I like to find benes that stack some of these odd multipliers within the bench um identification, like the location of the bench, the orientation of the bench of staircases, or the chain of it. How what the relationship is to an edge habitat or a burn or a beetle kill or a feeding area. So what we were seeing earlier

guys is elk tend. In my opinion, they tend to migrate to these benches historically, even when the food sources may be adjusting, Like if they're feeding in meadows and it starts to turn dry and they start feeding in more timber more, they may still be using those same bench areas, but they're hitting different feedings um features, right, traveling a little farther, Yeah, they're traveling a little farther, even water. They'll make some adjustments. But I found those

benches are really consistent. They're not they're like, um, you know, they're you gotta kiss a lot of frogs to define those mecca be those uh just mecca um benches. Because and it's so funny to me, like you'll see one on the map that just looks like there should be like a thousand elk there, and you'll go there and and it's just whatever. You know, there's not much there. You'll go to one that just looks mediocre and they'll be a elk can't even that bench, right, So it's

elk I always. Elk are where they want to be, guys, you find them. Yeah, And but there are some things that you can do to increase the odds of running into them. And that's really what what I'm trying to help people with is that trying to help you learn some things that will help you turn the tables and stack some of these odds in your favor. That's really the goal for sure. Well, thanks thanks for taking that question. We're gonna jump into now my own question, um for Mark.

But yeah, if you have your own questions, feel free to submit them CTD at Phelps Game Calls dot com. Um, we we have another question, but it's actually gonna kind of get rolled up in in some of my questions, So we're gonna jump forward and get into the discussion. So I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to rewind those thirty three years of elk hunting. Here. If you were a brand new elk hunter, you decided this year I'm

gonna go l hunting. You have no idea where they live. Besides, you've seen some off the county highway, you know, our county road. What would you recommend to two people too? If you're brand new l hunter? Where do you start? How do you how do you start to build this picture of what elk like where you're gonna find him in the mountains, you know, and I'm talking d I Y public land, you know OTC type stuff like where are these elk? You know? Are they seeking refuge? Are

they seeking food? You know? You we we've got you know, ten to fifteen features as el hunters look for that that and then some of them have higher multipliers. Um, what would you focus in on your you're looking at a new unit, like, how do you start your approach

to find it? That's a great question because I did the prestation on elk fighting features, because I remember I told you that I monitor some of the progress in my course, and these guys are just jumping to the LK finding and they're forgetting about the core hunt area identification. They're forgetting about the zones of pressure, they're forgetting about the hunt parameters. So there's all these things that I have kind of adopted into my plan before I ever

start looking for a bench. Let's just say one of the features. There's so many things that has to happen. Guys, Just because there's a bench on the side of the mountain that looks good and it's next to a fire does not mean there's gonna be out there. There could be. So how I start is I spent a lot of time in the research phase. Guys. I use all the tools available. I don't become one dimensional in the research phase, just like I don't become one dimensionally in the app phase.

I use all the available tools. So what I want to do is, let's say we're gonna hunt Montana. Okay, we've decided that Montana is the place we want to go. We want to figure out where in Montana we're gonna go. I gotta start looking at these at these units and seeing one, what is the elk population in those units? Now, Guys, I don't get so caught up in this. Well, they're these you got you can kill a three thirty to three sixty bull in this unit. Now there's some truth

to that. Maybe the guys, the key is getting in numbers of ELK for most hunters, right, the select few guys that are looking for the for that gemstone. I mean, that's fine, but I'm looking for very large numbers of ELK. So I'm looking at migration data. I'm looking at I'll tell you another one that in a second here. But so I'm looking at statistics. Obviously I even go to this guy. I know this is work, but this is

how I do it. So I download the last three years of statistics in Montana and I put them in a spreadsheet of all the units, or even all the units, whatever units your interests, and I want to run averages, right, because you've got to remember, most of these states do not have well I shouldn't say most, but a lot of states do not have mandatory surveys. They do some random stuff, right, So they might call you one year, they might not call you again for five years, and

I just think they do a poor job. I'm just gonna call him out, especially Montana. So you can't look at those stats and really make predictable calculations on one year. Now, I do think with the random surveys, if you did an average. So the first thing I like to do is I like to prepare my own little spreadsheet. The stats are all available if they're PDF. Take the time to type of man, guys, it's money or it's time well spent. Breakdown some units. So I'm looking for elk populations,

I'm looking for total hunters. I'm looking for the percentage of six point bull killed, not size, just a percentage of six point bulls killed, if it's available. But mainly what I'm looking at is bull of cow ratio. I'm looking for significant numbers of bulls of cow ratio. And then I start kind of sorting out those units, right, and I'll pick a few and kind of zero in on them, and then I'll start google Earth flying guys. I do not start looking for elk finding features right

off the bat. That's kind of all. It's not the

last step, but it's down the road, right. Yeah. So one of the things I like to do is not only look at at those elk numbers and then divide it by like hunter days in that unit, because I want to not only be because there might be a great unit, but it may have half the hunters in Montanas, right, And so one of the other tips we do is then go find that hunter days and then divide, you know, the success rate or to buy and come up with some sort of a number or an output, like all

right now, these units are sorted by ELK numbers, bold cal ratio numbers. But then how few hunters right there? And I've always figured all hunters lie the same. So if we're at least using the averages and everybody lying that at least the data we've got the best we're gonna get, it's what you're gonna get. So then I'll tell you. I don't say this very often, but guys, every state that has ELK produces an ELK management report,

and they can be up to two pages long. Guys, they're not designed for hunters, but there is so much information and then those like oh, the herd here is doing this, and the herd here is doing that, and then migration is getting bigger here and it is getting smaller here. Those things just can if you do the stats and then you read through those. It's a quick Google search for Montana ELK management report, our ELK management study or objectives and all the things will start coming up.

But you take the time to read through that report, you will be amazed with the historical knowledge that you just implanting your to help guide you in the process. So I kind of do that, and then I then I read these reports, I look at objectives kind of make you know, I want to hunt areas that have good huntable populations about. So then what I'm going to do.

Really one of the most important things I think is EA scouting is and I don't talk about this a lot, and I should because it's it's really a big part of the course. But the zones of pressure. Now people get confused by that. They're thinking, oh, you're trying to get away from hunters, You're trying to get far in. Well, I do sometimes, but really, what I'm saying, guys, you have to understand where the hunters are going to park, where they're gonna access, what roads are going to use.

And if you start marking all that, and I got a whole system, we won't really get in that. But I had this whole system to help you basically diagram out this hunting pressure. If you take time to do that, you'll be just amazed again at what will jump out it. You'll be like, oh, look at this spot right here. So I get guys from Oregon calling me all the time about Oregon and Washington. Man, we got roads everywhere. I can't really get far from this thing, and you

always talk about packing in. I'm telling you right now, I think it's easier to find ELK in high pressure areas than it is in low pressure areas. And everybody's like, you're out of your mind. Here's why. Think about it in a high pressure area with a lot of roads, because there's if you start doing the zones of pressure, there's only a few places they can get away right to get a little seclusion. If you look, if you march into them, I'm just going to the middle of Mattcalf.

We are, Bob Marshall. Those help can be anywhere, right. They haven't seen a person, so they haven't seen a person. Thing go anywhere they want. There's nothing moving around. So in some ways, guys, if it's done right and you take the time to analyze it, finding ELK in high pressure areas is almost easier than low pressure areas. UM I prefer to hunt low pressure areas because I like to call ELK. And one of the problems with the

high pressure they get you get calling issues right. So but that's really the only reason I don't like people. I'm kind of anti social, like lampers, and I like to call elk that haven't been called to a lot. Maybe it's just because I'm not a very good caller, and it's way I don't know even for I mean, it's way easier to call a bull and that's uh

not been educated and not been messed with. But as far as finding elk, right, guys, they're always frustrated with Oregon and New Mexico and watching some of these dates. Have a lot of road networks and the stuff. Guys use it to your vantage, but you've got to approach it systematically. I'm telling you, the average guy cannot look at a map, cannot just look down and see all that road network and say I'm gonna go here, because that looks like that's a little a little isolated. You

might get lucky. But if you do this, I do this circle. If you do this, if you put a radius around all the trail heads, I do a two mile radius around all trail heads. I do a one mile radius around all roads, and I mark it with markarts and then I look at what's left. If you do that, you'll be shocked at what starts jumping out. Then I start looking at these pockets like that. That's when I start looking for features in those areas that

makes sense because of the pressure evaluation. Yeah, that's that's a great tip. One thing I'd like to do now is we both know of all the features we look for. UM, we're gonna jump ahead a little bit and now you've you've you went to the and Wildlife website, You've figured out data that you need to harvest data or the best you can. Um, you know, it's not always possible to put boots on the ground. The one nice thing me and you have is we've been to enough areas

that have had elk. We go back and it's almost like retroactively going back and then re re e scouting, like well, why did this area have so many elk? So we've got all of this. But if you're a new hunter, you've identified an area, you've identified a unit you think you can get to where there's no pressure. You know, you maybe you've jumped on Google Earth and looked at the trailheads in September whatever you need to.

You're like, all right, I've got this spot. I can you know, get water here, I can camp here before we get there, Like what makes an elk spot typically good? Using all of the elk features and and then kind of their multipliers, let's kind of walk through, you know, kind of the list of elk features at least what we're looking for. You know, it's it's very easy to say elkn need three things. They need food, water, and cover. Like you you hear that said all the time. I

say it all the time. But there's more to it than that. Like, let's dive into what's food? What kind of is it? Is it a migration area? Are these elk going to continue to push higher and higher through August? Or they maxed out in July? Like? These areas are sometimes different. Um, you know those bulls that you scouted, maybe you do get a scout all summer. Those bulls are gonna move somewhere around August fifteen, Like do you know where they're going? Do you know where the groups

of cows are? Um? Water that can mean different stuff to different elk in different regions. You know, some areas every creeks plumb full, some areas have springs. Some those elk are gonna literally need to live the entire herd is going to have to live out of a little seat. UM. Let's talk about food, cover, water, um. But then you know all of these things. I think everything that we talked about ELK features can fault under that in one form or another. You know, whether it's a bench that's

probably security, um. Comfort. Let's just start at the top and walk down through the ELK features that we both know we're looking for. Let's just let's not spend a lot of time talking about each one because we go that's a whole for you, you know, um or deal. But I think it's important expose everyone to kind of the things that I'm looking for. So once we've you know, identified or spot and we've determined that we are interested in it, guys, I look at a ton of places

that I never hunt. It just doesn't pan out. Even though it met the It met the criteria for the stats, it met the criteria for the pressure right the roads. Everything I had some remote and as I had everything I was looking for, but the feature set just didn't support what I was looking for. And when I say feature said, I do about ten to twelve things, depends on the region. Um. But the first thing I do is it's part of the pressure evaluation is trailhead and

trail analysis. Not many hunters do this, and I don't know why, but they should, and I, like I said yesterday, there's really only one tool you can use to do it, and that's Google Earth. You need that in order to look at that level of detail. You need the highest zoom capability that you can get, and currently that's with Google Earth. Now, as these apps get better and better and better, that may change, but it presently um that's still the best tool for getting fine detail worked on.

I look at every trailhead. Is it a Walmart parking lot or does it look like there's only room for two cars? That tells you so much right there. Most guys just look at the maps. I'm gonna go to trailhead be and they show up and it looks like, you know, it looks like Costco and they're like, oh man. And then and then they're immediately in a negative mindset, right They're deflated, which you know, and maybe there's reason, but maybe there's not reason. So I analyze every trail head.

I'm really I'm really picky about that. The next thing I do is all the trails that are on the map on the U S G S topo map that are in my hunt area. I zoom in on every one of them. I want to see. Can I see the brown line? Is there grass in it? Are there multiple lines meaning side parallel lines? That can mean one of two things. If you start seeing a trail that has, for example, multiple lines, that means there's either outfitters or

there's cattle. So because if it's just a hiking trail, you won't see that, right, there's just little nuances like that. The lot of guys don't really probably think about putting in their arsenal. So I kind of break down the area and that tells me a lot about I've already done my pressure analysis, like I've said, now, now I kind of have an idea of where everyone's parking, how many people are parking there, and how they're using those

networks of trails. And if I see a really really prime like the example I showed yesterday, really really prime unit, one of the best in Montana, and a really obvious trail, but there was no sign of anybody walking on this trail, and we started breaking it down and it was this

giant Beetle Kill area. So we immediately knew there's probably a good chance the reason is not being used is because it's gonna be difficult, right, Yeah, So that's that start their second Well, and not in any particular word, I don't want to say second, just you know, these are just the features I'll try to make sure I remember in the right order. So, um, candians, creeks, and drainages. I evaluate all the drainages. They're very important, ELK, what

direction they faced, the flat bottoms, how steep they are? Um, do they have appropriate topography? What? How are they how are they relate into the zones of pressure? Are their trails in the bottom? Are there no trails in the bottom? Those kind of features, the trails and canyons, creeks and drains, and I would include basins and bowls and in that as well. The next thing is probably, um, I'm trying to think off the top of my head here, Um what I would want to say next, Well, we'll just

jump into it. So fires, guys, fires and ELK just go hand in hand, and a lot of hundreds know it. So they look for fire zones. You've gotta be methodical when you're researching, and it's not I hear so many people say all the time, Oh, fire zones are great for elk. I'm like, okay, that's good. Well why weren't what time? When? How well does the fire have to be? How steep does the fire? I mean, there's so many things. Giant fires, guys, and some of these fires are huge.

Where they how do they come in and out? Where? Where are they most likely to come in and out? We talked a lot about that, so breaking down fires and the edges of those fires. What does the edge look like? Is it a straight edge or is it a jagged edge? Are there burned timber patches, unburned timber patches. All these things kind of stack up within fires to

make them more desirable to help for me. Beetle kills one of my favorites, you know, But beetle kills, as we talked about, they're very difficult to evaluate because you in order to hunt a beetle kill, in my opinion, you have to know when it started. Right. If you go into a year old beetle kill is gonna be a problem. It's gonna be very difficult. It's gonna be

very very strenuous physical. It doesn't mean the I was gonna say some of the toughest hunt of my hunts of my life have been in beetle kill where you don't touch the ground for a week at a time. But then the old hunting is just great. And so it's just really what you're after on the hunt, Like, is it going to frustrate you to high hell to have to be, you know, dodging logs, But as you mentioned, you're gonna get into kind of the prime time in

your opinion, to hunt beetle kill. That's right. I like the window. And one of the one of the reasons I think I like beetle kills is I think guys hunters, a lot of hunters are super scared beetle kills, and I think it's a limit that you can use to your advantage. I think it's something to people. Oh, I don't have any interest in that, and uh or I think a lot of guys they don't even know they're hunting a beetle kill until they get there and then

they see it. Um. But there are a lot of studies guys on beetle kills, and I've read almost everything I can find about it, but most of the studies are showing that the elk prefer the beetle kill to a certain point. Once it becomes the jackpine type situation, the elk use it less and less and less. There's high pressure situation. Elk and low pressure do not tend to go into those match stick environments as much or

more than they will UM in a high pressure. So, for example, a lot of research in Colorado being done on beetle kills because the whole state's pretty much wiped out. Well, these elk are learning how to live in these beetle kills. Like mass they've piled up beetle kills. These elk are just living year round. They're not even migrating anymore, and they're adapting. And guys that are capable and willing to do it UM are having good luck with that. And so beetle kills is one UM. Slopes, you know, UM

the right degree of slope, the right orientations. I spent a lot of time on slopes. And you know, there's some apps that are coming out now that have tremendous slope analysis tools. Cal Tobo is a free site you can use. It's got tremendous slope analysis. You know, elk really prefer they really like that twenty degree. It's like their magic zone. Once it gets up to closer to six. Now, I say, here's the other thing I want to make

sure everyone knows, is I interchange percent and degree. But that's not the way I should be doing it because percent in degree or not the same. Guys, make sure you understand that. So when you like looking Google Earth, it's in percent when you look at most other things in degree, I want to say it's about half, but it's not quite half. So twenty degrees. That's not complete, but you can kind of work off of that. But you know, people say, oh, I see Helk on super steep,

so of course you do. Of course you do what puts them on that super steep. Well, pred ation people pressure will cause late season, even because the snow being um when blown off the slopes. There's reasons that Elks starts spending time on more steeper slopes, in my opinion, but during archery season, where they can go wherever they want, it seems like that twenty is the magic and so I spent a lot of time kind of like Okay, there's this bench area, what's the slope, what's the slope?

Bang in this area, and uh, do I hunt an area only because it has twenty degree slopes? No, it's just another one of these. But I see it. I just added to the list of features. And what are we doing. We're stacking the odds, right, So we already mentioned benches, um, funnels, and saddles. I spend quite a bit of time on funnels and saddles, mainly because in high pressure areas, if I'm hunting, I'm just gonna give

you guys a really good tip. If you're hunting Colorado, there's a lot of people there are guys, but there's a lot of elk. We were talking, I mean a lot of elk. Saddles and funnels are at the top of my list. In Colorado. There's a lot of them, and the mountains are steep, the terrain is big, elevations are big, and they you know, when given the chance, they love the path of least resistance. Right, So, saddles and funnels, travel corridors, timber connections, those are all really

important in high pressure areas. You know, in low pressure states, you get you draw my primo tag in Nevada, in Utah, you'll see elk walking across giant meadows all the time, right, And that's what you always see on TV, But in OTC States, you just don't see that as much, right you would, you agree? And they use these corridors, you know, to move around, so I always want to identify those as well. So that's a few of them, um that

I look for. Yeah, and I want to elaborate a little bit on and maybe this is fast forward and a little bit um. When I show up to a to a trailhead, it's hunting season, now we're scouting is done. You had made mention of passes and saddles. Um. One thing we we did talk about is the fringes which you like to look out on, you know, big timber to fire edges. You're looking at meadow to timber edges when I show up to a trail head, to very

quickly proof the area. Now we don't want to go blow them out of their beds and whatnot, but I want to go check and and I will have I told you I've burned it into my mind this area, so I don't I don't have my apple marked up. I know I'm gonna walk down this drainage. I want to check this meadow edge and then I've almost got my route pre planned. If there's elk there, then I'm gonna climb, you know, at a forty five, I've got

a saddle up here I want to hit. I want to see if these elk a flip flopping from this drainage to that drainage, and just by checking fringe areas. And when I when I say fringe, what I think is, you know, feed, which is meadows, alpine meadows not always the biggest giantese meadow where they can feed secluded and comfortably. I want to go check that edge. I want to go check passes and saddles. I want to go check potential bench edges or fringes. I don't necessarily want to

get right in there. And then I want to go check for what I thought maybe potential water sources, if there's wallows in the area, if there is like, um, you know, drinkable where I think elk have to go to drink versus a crick a crick. I'm not gonna go run. Maybe I will run the bottom, but I want to run fringes. I want to run ridgelines, And then I want to go check on these other feature rich areas. Or feature to feature areas just to see if they're elk in there, and then otherwise back and

you know I'm wasting time there. Um. One of the things we both get a bunch of questions is guys and gals will go to a trailhead set with plan A. They don't have a plan B, C or D. They will put all over their eggs in that basket and they will I don't want to say waste, but they will use up all of their ten days at that trailhead and never really be in them. You know, those Elko move, and so you want to quickly go there

if my spot a maybe for some reason. You know, we've got a lot of a time on this now, so I usually don't guess wrong where I think elk are gonna be. But if I do, like I'm loading up, like we're not sitting at this spot from more to day. We we talked about the be out there at prime time if I gotta get up two hours early, But that two hours is gonna save me twenty four hours or forty eight or seventy two of staying in an area that doesn't have all I want to be out

there listening in the dark. I want to be out there and looking for you know, be in their spots in primetime. Run these areas, give it maybe a night to see if things don't feed out in different locations them out of there. I'm going, as you mentioned, we did this EA scouting for multiple spots one, two, three, four, A, B, C, and D and we're moving to the next spot. Man. You man, you almost just preached right out of my course.

So that's one of the things, one of the you know, at the end, our goal is have a hunt plan, right, and so my idea of a hunt plan is a collection of hunt areas like and hunt areas are exactly as you described. It's a place that you could conduct your entire hunt within. I never go on anything less than a ten day hunt without four to five options. Now everybody's like, oh man, that's a lot of work.

I'm like, yeah, maybe, let's say you go to number one and there's elk everywhere and you you never touched two, three or four. Who cares? You've got those for next year. They're always in your pocket. It's not you're not wasting time developing hunt areas. So I see so many guys, you know, one another tip, guys, stay as mobile as you freaking can live like a gypsy. Don't set up the giant wall tens and put the carpet in, build

the decks. I see just outrageous things. You know, you are anchoring yourself to a spot you have automatically, in my opinion, you've automatically decreased your odds for success. Now you might get lucky from time to time, or you might. Everybody, and I every guys tell me, I don't know if you ever Yeah, we're gonna we're kind of waiting for him to move in. I'm I, you ever heard that

you're gonna be here any day? I'm like, you're gonna You're gonna bet your entire ten days of elk hunting that you waited the entire year on that they might roll in. Now, if you are super familiar with an area, I guys, I always get these, Well this happened to me. I got it. But unless you really really really really know an area and you and it's and it's happened to multiple times, I I certainly wouldn't bet on that for sure. I'm not even willing to give up. You know,

these guys are gonna show up. If you have a ten day hunt, I'm not even willing to give four to eight hours waiting. Like those elk are alive, bigling running, living somewhere in that unit, Like, let's go find him. It's just it's the other thing. I mean, not necessarily with this podcast about but time is is like the number one contributor to once the seasons here. Of course you have to find elk, but it's just time and opportunity. Like no matter how good a caller you are, no

matter how good a shot you are. Um, you know, the wind does what the wind does. The elk do what the elk do. You can't control them. It's gonna take multiple times, and and I've got to be in the game every day, um, in order for these things to pan out. You know. There me and Ryan in New Mexico, we were there for eight days, you know, and and we got a shot. It was just like well,

and everybody else was kind of packing up. I'm not gonna call name names, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it was just that point where it's you know, even guys in one of the better units, it just takes time for some of this stuff to all come together, you know, There's been many times where I might not even decide. I'm pretty aggressive, so usually this doesn't happen, but there may be an instance where I want to watch these elk for a day or two to pattern him.

If I know nobody's gonna go pressure, and it's to my advantage to see what these things do before I finally like go blow the spot up. You know, it's it's all or nothing, And I do that a lot too. That's kind of my per now. One of the reasons that we're able to do that, guys, is we get a lot of days a hunt. And I understand, I'm blessed, you're bled, we're all we're blessed to be doing what we do, right. But when I was coming from Missouri hunting,

sometimes I had to get a little more aggressive. I didn't have the luxury to wait for days and days and days, or I didn't think I did. And uh, you know, Ryan said it. We were talking and that they were asking Ryan last night about stalking that olk and what he would do. What he in every time they kept trying to change the scenario so he would change his answer, right, But what did he say every time? He said, I would sit there, I'm waiting, waits I

would wait, wait wait. Patience kills out guys. Most people. They act way too quick, they call too frequently, they make a move too much, and sometimes guys slow it down. They you're right where you need to be. Sometimes you almost have to let the elk kill themselves. Yeah, we we talked about it yesterday quite a bit, and multiple scenarios.

Once you decide to call, once you decide to let that elk hear you, whether it's breaking brush, you've now giving you you at that point, you've given up seclusion and and you're no longer fly on the wall. You're now an active part of the game versus a very very passive part of the game. Whether and that affects me, even if I'm gonna go in there and rip a bugle like, I do not want him to know why I'm on the ground anywhere that I'm in existence until

I'm ready to a bugle. Um. You know, if we've had you know, glunk and bowls running circles around cows, and either're doing the same path, they're doing the same loop. You know, why would you disrupt him being completely unfocused on you, him giving you you know, multiple shots after shots to give up your position, you know. And and so we're we're on a little tangent there, but um yeah,

uh so to close here, we're we're winding up. We got a lot of a lot of events going on here and in places to get But if you could give one single tip to help a new elk hunter this year, Um, it doesn't even have to be in line with finding elk or apps. Um, what would be your your bit of advice here, I'm gonna go back real quickly. I'm gonna go back to that multiple hunt plans.

Here's the thing I've talked to so many people. If you invest in plan a a lot of guys become emotional about it, right, Like they put a lot of work, they scouted it. It just looks amazing. They just they know there's gonna be a four hund inche bowl that just standing in that meadow. When they get that right, and then they get there and something people not no elk whatever, something derails him and it's psychologically damaging. It really is, especially the passion that we have for hunting elk.

When it when we when this passion gets interrupted, we don't deal with it well, right, as elk hunters. Guys, I'm telling you right now, UM, take the time work out three or four options completely. So when the time comes. Here's this scenario when you've got no plan and you're driving into town to get sales service, to download some maps and try to figure out what you're gonna do. You're at a low of low. Right, we've all always

I've done it, I'll met it. But when you when you say you hike in, like you said, you spent twenty four hours and nothing turns up, and you're like, but you know that you you've got a complete mapped out plan. B make a move. You know how long it's gonna take you to drive there. You know how long it's gonna take you to hike into camp. You say, if I leave right now, I can be there. I can be at camp by three, I can even hunt the evening. Your spirit as lifted right then you're ready

to move. But if you don't have in your maps already downloa, everything is prepped, all your way points, all your finding features, all your roots, your glass and spots, everything is pre done, right, pre done. You are at a comfort level. That is so I can't explain it's almost euphoric that you're almost ready to move to plan too. But when you don't know what you're gonna do, you're very resistant to move. I'm gonna give it one more day, right,

I'm gonna wait. They're gonna they're gonna be here any day, like we just said, and you'll start falling into those tracks. And it's it's a mental compounding trap. Guys. There's so many things that can go wrong without cunning. We have to take control of the things that we can control. And guys, hunt planning, that's stupid. If you do not have your hunt planned together, that's just that's laziness, in my opinion. You can't control where they are are gonna be.

You might be able to can't control what people are gonna do. You can't control the masses, where, what the trailer e they're gonna show up, But you can't control what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. And if you have a systematical approach to start working through, you stay mobile, you stay fluid, you can move quickly from one to the other, and you've got progression. You know. One of the things I'll tell you,

if you're hunting with a buddy. One other tip that I this has just proved out to be so good to me too, is you know, the last thing that if I would tell somebody to do is when you look at planning your like an assault into an area, try to do I call it progressive hunting, where you can park a rig at one spot and hunt to that rig because when you go in and out on the same trail, you're you're I'm not saying it's not productive, but you're seeing the same territory and a lot of guys.

It's just it's a little more work to plan that out. Now, sum areas just don't work out like that, right, the trails don't connect riders too far or whatever. But one of my most successful tactics with my llamas is to start a trail at a and do like I do, like thirty forty miles through, but I have rigs it both in. If I only make it two miles in, there's everywhere, great, I go back to that rig. If I'm in the middle, I just try to say, Okay,

which way is the roughness? Yeah? And you know, guys, it's it's incredibly productive because you're seeing new country and

allows you to work through a progression. You might not get elk here here here, but sometimes hiking in five miles and coming out five miles, you know, it takes up a lot of time to do it waiting and your your own So you've now hiked ten miles, right, but you've only got to see five miles from the country, and you I feel like it's a deadhead on the five miles back because you've already wrote that country off as we're walking through it. And so now, guys, don't

get me where. You can't do that most of the time, and if you're solo, that may not work as well. But if you're hunting in the group and you've got multiple vehicles, guys, don't forget that strategy. It's a good one. And you know, kind of the piggyback and and kind of close the loop on this hump planning. I agree hunt plan number one. Know what you're going to do if spot one, two, three, and four don't pan out

where you're going. But the other part is, as he had mentioned, you show up and there's you know, trees all over the trail. You had this pretty picture in your mind, you're gonna hike. It's gonna take you two point three four you know, three or four hours to hike the five miles. This is what we're gonna set up your tent. And um, it just it's a psychology issue.

You know you instantly fall apart. But um to piggyback on that is, don't give up because that drive to town you're instantly thinking about, is this hunt already over? Like it's very easy unless you're just mentally prepared to to to keep fighting through it. Um, don't give up like I would. I would challenge you to just spend a day on the mountain and enjoy it, Like, don't hunt, just hang out, listen, drive the road system, glass and

just give yourself a day. Because time is is. Ultimately we can talk about finding elk, we can talk about being the best bowshot, the best color. Um, Ultimately you have to keep punching that time clock. And that's days in the field and more importantly, days on elk, not in your truck, not in your especially not at home right when you've given up and take that drift home.

Like my wife would kill me if you hear me you say this, But I would rather have a ten day vacation, hanging out on the road in Elk country where I can physically then to be home. Um Like, at that point, I've now lost my ability to kill anything. We had to, you know, we had the cast asked us that question as we never hunted out right, he's here at this summent. He goes, what's the one thing I could do? What's the one thing I could do? While there's so many we could have said, But what

did we say? Just stay in the game, get out there at first, like, get out of stay until dark, you know, move around. I mean, guys, good things happen if you put yourself in play. If you're in your truck and you're driving around or you're at home, you're certainly not going to kill an alp. And I can't tell you know elk cutting. I say this about bear hunting as well, But it's boredom and one percent freaking crazy adrenaline. Right, you work for that one percent. You

never know when that one percent is gonna happen. It can happen at any moment. I've been in areas I haven't seen any sign, No, well haven't heard it, And all of a sudden there's a giant bulls screaming in front of me or just out of nowhere. Now, I'm not saying it happens all the time, but guys, you just gotta stay in the game, don't get discouraged, don't give up any The way not to get discouraged is

by planning. The more planning you have, the better. And I guess if we got time, I'll say one more, guys, don't get out of your capabilities. I have an entire module in my course dedicated to realities and limitations, and the reason I see so many guys eight nine miles in the background try and I'm like, what are you guys gonna do if you're killing out well, I don't know. I mean, guys, if you go beyond your capability, you're gonna wear yourself down. You're gonna limit the days you're

gonna be able to hunt. You can kill Elk one or two miles on the road, right, if that's your limit, work a plan that works with your capabilities. If you're out of shape, who cares. That doesn't mean you can't hunt Elk. It just means you gotta work maybe a little more strategic, maybe cross a creek that nobody's willing to cross. Maybe you're gonna do somethings like that, but

work a plan that works in your bill. Don't don't try to be Ryan Lambers if you're not Ryan Lamber's right, And because you're gonna get over your head and you're gonna it's gonna be negative and you're gonna be it's gonna wear you down and you're gonna quit hunting. Yeah, early, really early, God forbid you kill an elk or something back there and then really having a big issue on

your hands to stay in your ability. You owe it to the elk, right, It's not only about I mean I feel like I owe it to the elk to get all that meat out. And it takes a while for new hunters to build that understanding and like mental capacity, like I think some of us have moved, Like I can kill an milk anywhere, and I'll devise a plan like I need to get it to a creek, Like I will figure out a way to take care of

this elk. But I think until you've did it enough and um, yeah, it's it's it's just as much of of a mental game. And I think as you hit the nail on the head by planning, you're at least taking some of that mental pressure off of yourself not to give up on the hunt. So you're not gonna let yourself. Guys, when you're hunting, you're dehydrated, you're stressed, your wife's texting in your in reach. When you're gonna come home, you got all these they got work, you

know you're thinking about. You have so many things on your mind. The more you can take the decisions out of your the equation when you're out cutting, I make when I go elk cutting, by the time I get to the trailhead right, my decisions are made. I know where I'm going pretty much every day until something happens. Now, I'll make modifications, but I've got a systematic strategy that

I'm gonna work through. And when you're laying in your tent and you you haven't seen anything yet, when and you pull out that hunt plane, you're looking at it, you're like, oh, I forgot about this little spot that I had. I'm gonna go there tomorrow, and all of a sudden, you're an elk. But if you don't have it, you're gonna make bad decisions. You're gonna give up while I'm not saying you're going to You're going to be

more likely to. Well, I really appreciate having you on today market we get back to some of the other um, you know, classes and stuff going on. Really appreciate. Can you tell everybody how to find out a little bit more, how to get ahold of you, how to find out more about Treeline Pursuits, Treeline Academy, and uh, I've got to sit on you know, some of mark stuff both Elk Shape Now and at Western Hunting Summit. Um a

wealth of information. You know. I think it's we've got to talk here for a little over half hour, but you've got forty hours plus of material. Um you dive and then he dives way deeper into some of this stuff on you know features specifically how to use some of the apps to find that. Let everybody know how to find you, how to check check out more of that. So start with you can I mean on Instagram, I I really do. I try to do a pretty good job of keeping my content up and what's going on.

Some of the film Al was in Bear Hunts and all the things we've been doing, but tree Line pursued tree Line Underscore pursues his Instagram and then tree Line Pursuits dot Com is kind of my my landing page for a lot of my you know, d hy dehydrat meals recipes and articles and blah blah blah. But tree Line Academy dot net is where the course sets. You can get to it through tree Line Pursuits dot com if you just remember that. But you know the main

thing it Just check out my Instagram page. I've got linked tree with all the access to all these things. So we're really appreciate once again having you Mark take care of um great information. And like I say, I would bet you know what I've heard Mark say of stuff. It's the exact same stuff I use. I'm just not is organized as him, but we're looking for the same exact things. You just made sure to save everything a little better and tidy it up. You already going to

the city. You're already got these places work down, so you've already done the work. So alright, thanks for having Thanks m