“We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting historian John Meacham) “When does the revolution end? … It doesn’t.” (Daniel Gidick on Thomas Jefferson) “This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting Franklin D. Roosevelt) Teaching high school history...
Dec 10, 2024•45 min•Ep. 189
“In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.” (Chaplain Earl Smith) Chaplain Earl Smith believes that ministry to the incarcerated is about so much more than rehabilitation. It’s about regeneration. Using the power of his own story of transformation from gang member to pastor, Chaplain Smith has m...
Dec 03, 2024•54 min•Ep. 188
“Things had radically changed. … They had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to a concrete hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, i...
Nov 26, 2024•10 min•Ep. 187
“We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” (David Brooks, from the episode) There’s a growing chasm that divides the affluent and non-affluent in American society, and it’s perhaps most pronounced in higher education. The elite meritocracy suggests that we should reward individual ability, ambition, and accomplishment. But what is “merit” anyway? What is “ability”? And how do they factor in our idea of “a successful life”? In this episo...
Nov 19, 2024•37 min•Ep. 186
Our increasingly reactionary political environment doesn’t lend itself to nuanced, patient understanding of events like the 2024 re-election of Donald Trump. What historical and philosophical resources can help us gain insight and wisdom? How can we successfully know and encounter each other in such a divided society? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times ) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got h...
Nov 12, 2024•35 min•Ep. 185
How should we respond to the anxiety, fear, and catastrophizing of Election Day? Is there an alternative to fight, flight, or freeze? Can people of Christian conviction stand firm, grounded in faith, leaning into the storm? In this special Election Day episode of Conversing , Mark Labberton welcomes Peter Wehner (columnist, the New York Times , The Atlantic ) and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary) to make sense of the moral, emotional, and spiritual factors operating in the 2024 US gener...
Nov 05, 2024•51 min•Ep. 184
The history of racism has a parallel history of resistance. Courageous women and men have responded to injustice with lives of faith, hope, and love—bearing witness to the spirit of justice. They have inspiring stories we can learn from today. But who is willing to tell those stories? And who is willing to hear them? In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes historian Jemar Tisby to discuss his new book, The Spirit of Justice —a summoning of over fifty courageous individuals who resisted racism th...
Oct 29, 2024•44 min•Ep. 183
“Sometimes I’m not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.” (Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson) Growing up in Oakland, California, Jackie Thompson didn’t know that sociologists were referring to her neighbourh...
Oct 22, 2024•55 min•Ep. 182
When it comes to voting, how should we balance character and policy? “If I'm voting for a politician,” journalist David French suggests, “I have a test. One is: Do they have the character necessary for the job? And the higher the position they’re seeking, the more character that is necessary. And number two: Do they broadly agree with me on the most important policies?” In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes journalist David French (opinion columnist for the New York Times ; formerly The Atlan...
Oct 15, 2024•48 min•Ep. 181
“It’s sort of strange to think about beauty and horrible circumstances together. But I try, probably clumsily at times, to bring beauty to a thing that's really horrible. … But in terms of covering executions, there is just a void there. The main character always dies.” (Elizabeth Bruenig, from the episode) Despite sin, there remains an inherent beauty and goodness throughout creation … including humanity. And even in the most divisive circumstances, when we appeal to the beauty and horror in ou...
Oct 08, 2024•45 min•Ep. 180
“We have to go back to the very basic thing of understanding our shared humanity. And we’ve departed a long way from that—even the best of us, I’m afraid. It is just stunning. I mean, we are such a danger to everything we value.” (Marilynne Robinson, from the episode) Today on the show, Mark Labberton welcomes the celebrated novelist and essayist Marilynne Robinson to discuss her most recent book, Reading Genesis. Known for novels such as Housekeeping , Gilead , Home , and Lila , she offers a un...
Oct 01, 2024•46 min•Ep. 179
“I’m here because you’re here.” Berkeley, California is known for being the home to the Free Speech Movement of the 1960s. It was and is the site of many protests, drawing vocal minorities to Sproul Plaza and People’s Park for demonstrations, activism, and public assembly. So it’s come to symbolize what it means to speak out and be heard. But what does it mean to minister to an energized public square? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton thinks back to his time ministering in Berkeley, CA. ...
Sep 24, 2024•6 min•Ep. 178
“Wisdom is not just about knowledge. Wisdom adds to knowledge with discernment, with understanding, with a moral sense of what’s right and wrong.” We live in a time of overflowing and interweaving crises. A global pandemic exacerbates a mental health crisis caused social media technology. The upheaval of American electoral politics caused by an erosion (or breakdown?) of social and relational trust. The rise of nationalism, the proliferation of war, and longing for justice in the realms of gende...
Sep 17, 2024•53 min•Ep. 177
Is perfection possible? And if so, is it worth the cost to your mental and spiritual health? The quest for perfection haunts many people: students, athletes, employees, parents—and the children of those parents! While this quest is often framed as the pursuit of excellence, virtue, and success, perfectionism often results in various maladaptive behaviours—such as procrastination, people-pleasing, relational stress, and mental illnesses, including anxiety and depression disorders. In this episode...
Sep 10, 2024•50 min•Ep. 176
The news media offers a steady drip of audacity, nerve, and offence—something for each end of the political spectrum and every corner of the public square. But when we integrate audacity with a humble confidence, it can lead to powerful acts of love and justice. The gospel makes an audacious claim about God’s grace. It makes an audacious demand that we love our neighbours in humility. And that combination of audacity and humility keeps us seeking to engage in real conversations about ultimate th...
Sep 03, 2024•7 min•Ep. 175
How should we approach disagreements when our deepest convictions and commitments are challenged or questioned? A healthy society is built around the ability to navigate these kinds of disagreements with responsibility and respect, but in our increasingly polarized society, it’s becoming harder and harder to cultivate the habits, skills, and virtues that can keep us united amid our vehement disagreements. In this episode Mark welcomes legal scholar and law professor John Inazu to discuss how to ...
Aug 27, 2024•1 hr•Ep. 174
“The mystery has great meaning.” Joy and sorrow don’t have to be dissonant opposites, author Amy Low suggests. There can be harmony in the space between triumph and tragedy. In her recent memoir, *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room ,* she recounts her battle with Stage IV metastatic colon cancer following the end of her marriage. Her gracious, generous wisdom is beautifully expressed on her book’s back cover: “Through the swirl of prolonged trauma and unbearable grief, a vantage poin...
Aug 20, 2024•1 hr 1 min•Ep. 173
“A certain degree of faith in Providence and a certain degree of confidence in America … May that combination not be overwhelmed by some disaster.” ( New York Times columnist Ross Douthat, offering a blessing for election season) Contemporary political debate and commentary operates from deeply moral sources. People tend to vote their conscience. Our values and ideals, our sense of right and wrong, and our beliefs about what contributes or detracts from the common good often inform our politics....
Aug 13, 2024•47 min•Ep. 172
Sacred spaces are not secret spaces. The church enacts a gospel reality that is inherently universal and transparent in the world. And what better metaphor than building a church sanctuary made of glass to communicate the invitation of the gospel to the world? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the implications of this architectural decision. He also considers the opportunities for community conversation; the invitation to communion, dialogue, and unity; and a fearless, gospel-...
Aug 06, 2024•8 min•Ep. 171
“When we pursue excellence it doesn’t have to come at the cost of our emotional and relational health.” (Ben Houltberg) How do we form an identity and sense of self? Do we define ourselves based on the fragile glass shelter of what we achieve or how well we perform? If so, how does that affect our sense of meaning and purpose in life? With the 2024 Paris Olympics underway, it’s easy to imagine how an elite athlete at the top of her game might form an identity based on her athletic or competitive...
Jul 30, 2024•1 hr•Ep. 170
People have been given so many reasons to despise Christianity. What would it be to communicate with and for the “cultured despisers of the faith”? This was the audience Friedrich Schleiermacher wrote to in his seminal work, The Christian Faith , and it is the audience Mark Labberton sought to speak to when preaching at First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, California. In this Conversing Short, Mark considers the importance of communicating the gospel in its fullness to a culture that understan...
Jul 23, 2024•6 min•Ep. 169
“Out of the greatest misery and the most devastating loss can come unimagined growth, and, in some cases, joy and happiness.” Mark Labberton welcomes pioneering social entrepreneur Mawi Asgedom, an award-winning innovator, author, and advocate for social-emotional learning (SEL). Sharing his story of struggle, resilience, and redemption, Mawi describes his extraordinary journey from war-torn Ethiopia to a Sudanese refugee camp, to a childhood on welfare in an affluent American suburb, to Harvard...
Jul 16, 2024•1 hr 1 min•Ep. 168
Imagine preaching in front of a crowd of protesters holding a banner: “HOW DARE YOU?” That’s what Mark Labberton did every Sunday preaching in the clear, glass-walled sanctuary of First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, California. In this Conversing Short, Mark reflects on this foundational, animating question that defined his public leadership during his sixteen years as senior pastor of First Pres. About Conversing Shorts: “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspi...
Jul 09, 2024•7 min•Ep. 167
“The Constitution is neither a left-wing or right-wing document. It is ultimately about how to hold a society together.” American political life today is fractured and splintered, but many still yearn for unity. How can we find social cohesion amid sharply felt differences? Political scientist Yuval Levin wants to bring us back to our founding document: the American Constitution. After all, the Preamble identifies as its primary purposes to “form a more perfect union” and “establish justice.” Yu...
Jul 02, 2024•56 min•Ep. 166
“All of our emotions are there for a good reason. They’re positive. They want to help. And a little anxiety is good. … All of society is saying, ‘Get rid of emotion. It's awful. It's evil.’ It's not true.” In this episode, Mark welcomes Pete Docter, executive producer of Inside Out 2 , and the Oscar-winning director of Monsters, Inc ., Up , and Inside Out. Pete joined Pixar Animation Studios in 1990 at twenty-one years old as its third animator, and is now Pixar’s chief creative officer. Mark an...
Jun 25, 2024•54 min•Ep. 165
“Reconciliation and reparations were never supposed to be two opposite things.” The Church is called to be a repairer of the breach. Drawing on the prophetic texts of Isaiah and Nehemiah, Brenda Salter McNeil joins Mark to discuss her latest book: Empowered to Repair: Becoming People Who Mend Broken Systems and Heal Our Communities. Together they reflect on the Church’s responsibility for social justice; the call to engage politics for the common good; the nature of systemic injustice and system...
Jun 18, 2024•43 min•Ep. 164
Anne Snyder joins Mark to discuss the need for deeper listening in the work of genuine encounter and exchange in public life. They reflect on the contributions of public theology to contemporary life, the values of Christian humanism, and the mission and vision of Comment magazine. They also announce an exciting new partnership between Conversing and Comment . Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment m agazine, which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North Am...
Jun 11, 2024•50 min•Ep. 163
Uli Chi and Mark discuss Uli's new book, "The Wise Leader," and how wisdom manifests in various contexts, from leadership roles to everyday life. Uli Chi has spent his life practicing leadership in the intersection of for-profit and nonprofit businesses, the theological academy, and the local church. Uli serves as board chair of the Virginia Mason Franciscan Health System, vice chair and senior fellow at the De Pree Center, and a fellow at the Center for Faithful Business at Seattle Pacific Univ...
May 28, 2024•1 hr 5 min
Shirley Mullen talks about the work of intentional engagement in our polarized contexts and advocates for actively bridging divides in our society. Shirley Mullen is president emerita of Houghton College, where she served for 15 years, and author of Claiming the Courageous Middle: Daring to Live and Work Together for a More Hopeful Future.
May 14, 2024•46 min
W. Thomas Boyce discusses new research on sensitivity and resilience in childhood development and talks about how learning to see our children well helps them flourish and thrive. W. Thomas Boyce is a pediatrician, professor emeritus of pediatrics and psychiatry at UC San Francisco, and author of The Orchid and the Dandelion: Why Some Children Struggle and How All Can Thrive.
Apr 30, 2024•1 hr 7 min
