Lunch with Pipper Hudson.
And now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola. Wendy back with us in studio today, and our main topic of conversation is going to be around kitchen refurbishments and some of the red flags to look out for things to be aware of in terms of how the industry works and what is considered fair and not. We will be hearing from an industry organization that deals with the fallout when
things go wrong. We also, I hope we'll have time to share an update from health authorities cautioning about the contents of some of the supplements on the market that are being marketed for children that they are raising concern about. I'm intrigued to hear that because the supplements that have been around since my kids with little children, So why all of a sudden the fuss will We'll discuss that a little bit later on, and then, of course we always like to save space for a couple of open
line questions Wendy before we dive into any of that. Firstly, welcome back to studios. And secondly, just to say last week's conversation, we promise to follow up on discovery, but of course the whole Discovery story done and dusted, and in between almost an overnight.
Yeah, so our John Mason was speaking to the CEO Ron Wheelan gon't remember what day it was now last week and it was two days after that, but in the interview was very adamant not going to happen. And then they said, we still believe our actions were valid, but you know, it wasn't our consumers. Our members didn't feel the same or it wasn't the right thing to
do for them. And so nobody's going to be paying anything with respect to that over pamit except for Discovery Health Administrator who's putting the money back in the fund so the fund doesn't suffer. The other members don't have to feel that they got to pay for mistake. And that was the end of that.
So all done and dusted. Thanks for that. The one thing that isn't yet resolved and Ryan are just sending a WHATSAUP have you ever had feedback from Virgin Active Greenpoint? Not resolved, but feedback received.
Feedback received. There was a big obviously because of the fest of season. So I've got feed very lengthy, comprehensive feedback from the gym. And then I sent it to our complainant who's given me very long, detailed, very much she said, she said, And so I just need to just sttle it down and get to give Virgin now to get their response to that, and then we're ready to go with it next year.
Okay, So Ryan, next week Wednesday, will that follow up will happen? Happen? Thanks for your patients. We just want to make sure that we have heard everybody's perspective on this one, to make sure that what we share is fairly presented. So please stand by for more on that one next week. For today, though, we are diving into the world of kitchen renovations and talk about cold shivers. I got one when I saw this topic, Wendy, because I think it's probably about fifteen years now since I did.
We did a kitchen remodel at home, and I don't know if I'm over the trauma yet. It was a very expensive process. It was fraught with difficulties and poor communication. In the end, the job was done well, but it was a difficult experience.
Fraught.
Fraud was reading the word I would use. And so it's a topic I approached with interest. What made you want to talk about this issue today.
Well, I must be honest, the Kitchen Specialists Association approached me because I don't get too many kitchen complaints. But over the years when I have, whether the company being complained about has been a member of the CASA or not, I've always gone to the Association to get their sort of mediator's view of does the complainant have a valid complaint or not. And so I thought, I don't know that we've ever spoken on this topic and all the years we've been doing consumer talk, so.
Let's give it a word.
And yes, given that we've got to hold the Region active story until next.
Week, okay, So just to give some context here, Of course, it depends very much on how big a remodel you're doing, whether it's a complete replacement or just redoing some of the cutbirds or replacing appliances, et cetera. The point is that this is a multi faceted kind of referb. There are a lot of different contractors involved.
Technically, a lot of contractors involved, whether they project managed by the one supplier or not. There's a lot of moving parts, a lot of different suppliers, and a lot of questions of perspective and context. So looking at a swatch or not a swatch, a sample, a small sample of a natural product like granite, as opposed to as saying yes, we want that and then you see it in a huge slab, effect is different. The effect often
and mostly is different. The same story with anything that you're looking at a small scale or in a picture, or in somebody else's kitchen, installed in your own particular kitchen with its own light perspectives, et cetera. There can be a disconnect there and that then creates a dispute. And in cases like that, it then becomes okay, did this apply give the customer enough of an opportunity to see it not just a tiny sample, but see it as it was likely to look. Yeah, in those proportions,
et cetera. Is the customer just did they just not avail themselves? And now you know they didn't do enough to make sure it's what they wanted, and now they unhappy? Do they have a ride? Most likely know?
Okay, So some very interesting questions raised here, and it's a great pleasure to welcome with us on the line this afternoon. Stephanie Forbes, who is the national manager of the Kitchen Specialists Association, and if you didn't know that they existed, well you do now. And if you are thinking of doing any kind of kitchen renovation, the first thing to say today is please check that your contractors are registered with the Kitchen Specialists Association. Stephanie, it's wonderful
to have you on the show today. Welcome to CAP Talk.
Thanks TSA, thanks very much for having me, High Windy as well.
Hi Stephanie.
Stephanie, First, but before we dive into the kinds of disputes that tend to cross your desk, won't you just tell us a little bit more about KSA, you are, how long you've been in existence, and then the role that you play.
Sure, the CAFA is we like to call it rather than the big mouthful of Kitchen Specialist Association. We've been around since nineteen eighty nine, so we're not spring chickens in the industry. We've been doing this for some time. Basically, it starts it out as a lot of industry associations do small cluster of industry people wanting to make a difference in the industry, and over the years it's developed
into a national association. We have two parts to the association one which is obviously an industry park where we look to educate and improve standards within the industry and hold people accountable for how they display themselves, what they do,
how they look after their staff. And then the other side of what we do is consumer orientated, and that side of what we do has grown and grown over the years tremendously, so much so that several years ago, when the CPA came into play, we decided to apply for registration by Theational Consumer Commission, which we now have, so we are certified now on all platforms to handle these consumer complaints and do so with sort of proper accreditation.
Okay, thanks so much. As a matter of interest, how many associations make up part of your membership, Stephanie.
So you have about two hundred and fifty companies nationwide that are part of the KSA. The interesting thing here is KSA membership is voluntary, so it's not like belonging to something like the NHBRC where it's mandatory. Companies choose to join the KSA and be held accountable to us by US and abide by our code of ethics and code of conduct and allow their clients to come to us if they feel that they have a problem. So it does speak volumes for those companies that make that choice.
So on that point, Stephanie, I would certainly, just because of the work that I do, I would certainly not consider giving my kitchen job to a company that wasn't a member of the KSA. But what would you say to those To a company that feels that it's operating ethically and professionally, that has chosen for whatever reason not to become a member of the KSA, what would you say to their issue that you know that's not to be construed that they aren't reliable and aren't offering a quality service.
Well, under a sense, there are plenty of reputable companies out there that have opted or do up to not belong to the KSA. Some of them don't meet our requirements, and that does not mean that they are not reputable. We do ask that our kitchen manufacturing members have a proper showroom facility, and that's to a facilitate that that we know that the consumer has seen a standard example of workmanship in a commercial setting, and we can hold
them accountable to that. Unlike elsewhere in the world where government sets certain standards or minimum standards for the cabinetry industry. We don't have that in South Africa, so we use the showroom as the mark of the of the quality and standard practice that the consumer can see and their home.
Okay, that's very interesting. So it's that ability to go and look at a physical showroom to see an example of the work, to see Wendy's already mentioned, for example a piece of granite in a larger proportion, or the woodwork you know, in a full cabinetry finish for example, Stephanie, what kind of difference? I mean, that's clearly something that
you feel is essential for consumers, is it? Because do you feel that strongly because there is so much variation between a small sample and what it looks like in big size. Do you find that that is often a place where complaints originate?
It is, But I think more importantly is that you have such a wide spectrum of what kitchen and cabinetry companies do because price is a factor, So you'll have entry level cabinet makers and kitchen companies they have a way of producing which retains the cost effectiveness but of still stable and good, and then you'll have the higher end that obviously go a little bit further when it
comes to production and standard means of manufacturing. So you need to compare an apple with an apple and not be holding someone who's charging fifty thousand round for a small kitchen to the standard of someone who's doing the highest end kitchens that are casting almost a million round. So keeping the fair and the judgment standard and equitable is one of the important things of having a showroom
is that we can measure that. And that's one of the things that the National Consumer Commission liked about the way we work is that they knew that the client could then see and had a realistic understanding of what they might receive, rather than going in an expecting X and receiving Y.
And we're going to be talking to Stephanie over the course in the next few minutes about some examples of the kinds of cases that have been brought to the KSA for mediation and intervention and looking at different case studies that not only I think provide an important example of what can go wrong that you need to be mindful of when when embarking on this kind of project, but also to demonstrate that sometimes blame is allocated on both sides Wendy and fairness that applies to every kind
of consumer dispute. Not all apples in the basket are always good or always bad. But the kind of case studies we're going to be looking at today quite demonstrate sometimes the customer is right in bringing a complaint and sometimes they're really not.
They're not and you can understand. I mean, if there's so much money involved, and so if the result is not what you want, you're going to be wanting to push back hard. But the thing is you're not always going to have a link to stand on. We've got a couple of minutes. I want to ask a question, so we get into that.
I think what we're going to do is look at the case studies after the eyewitness news break. What did you want to ask before we got a news I.
Didn't put it in our prenp but it's occurred to been as speaking about money, what do you recommend, Stephanie with regard to the percentage of deposit that a customer should realistically and reasonably be expected to pay?
How Whendy we have seen that change over the years. Traditionally it was always sort of fifty percent, but we have seen cases of fraud increased tremendously, so we have seen a lot of companies that do push that up to sixty sometimes seventy five percent. What we do recommend and obviously if andy applies, if it is a case a member you're dealing with is we have a holding account, which is like a plus account, but it's not monitored and audited every month, but it's totally separate to the case.
There's funds and there when consumers are nervous about handing over large sums, that can negotiate with the CASA members to put the funds into the case their holding account and then pull draws from that fund those funds to pay as on when certain stages are reached, which just keeps it a little bit more secure because there's a lot of money. But yeah, unfortunately there are now there's
no sort of definitive set standard for the deposit. It normally is at least fifty percent, but we are seeing companies push that further and for that because they are suffering a lot of non payment.
Yeah, we've seen that in other industries, conditioning all that kind of thing. It used to be when I first started in this game, it was fifty percent, no more. Each party's got equal risk. But I hear you they were normal is more like seventy percent.
Now for those who are just joining us, Stephanie as the national manager of the Kitchen Specialists Association, roughly two hundred and fifty companies falling under their umbrella. They're a national voluntary organization that sets codes of ethics and conduct for the kitchen industry that really helps to mediate in disputes.
And Stephanie, thanks for your patients. Let's dive into some examples of the kinds of disputes that you have had brought to you in the past, because I think it's useful to alert our listeners to the things they need to be mindful of that could go wrong. And we get it sort of group these in two categories, ones in which the consumer was in the wrong and ones
in which the contractor was in the wrong. Let's start with the former category, and Stephanie, you had an example of a consumer redoing her bathroom Vanity's who came to you with a problem that really, in the end turned out to be a case of the consumer not communicating well enough with their contractor. Won't you tell us what happened.
Sure, and you said earlier. Communication is key in a project like listen. This is a prime example of where it can cause major problems. So the client had had her vanities designed. She went with the kitchen company, her designer to choose what sinks she wanted on her vanity, and she had chosen with her designer, you know, the drop in sinks, so that that actually the hole gets cut into the base into the vanity and they drop in, and that is what the whole design was based on.
The measurements were taken so that the vanity would be placed accordingly, so that the tap would splash down correctly into a drop in basin. But during the manufacturing process, the client decided that she no longer wanted a drop in and she wanted to sit on basin. So she went and she changed this. She exchanged the sinks and she bought what she wanted, but at no point did she inform the kitchen company. So when they came to install,
the vanity was installed. Only then you find now the sinks are way too high, it doesn't work, and they need to be removed. And of course there are now draw holes in her tiles. And she came to us saying no, she expected the kitchen company to be responsible for the costs of redoing her tiling. And this is where we, you know, we have to sit and explain to the customer that what they did, in fact was
do exactly what she had instructed them to do. And cabinetry is a bespoke item, so when you sign off your drawings with the company, you are signing off that this is exactly what you are instructing them to make. You are this is the permission you are giving them, and you are fully in agreement that this is what
you want. So unfortunately, with when she failed to tell them that they that she had changed her choice, they were not given opportunities to repurpose that vanity and change their specs, which meant that they did no longer great didn't carry any risk or cost to do those changes and the resulting damage of the droll holes in the times.
Okay, So had the company changed the spec for whatever reason and then had to deal that, it would have then been on their shoulders to remedy the damage that they'll be done because she did not communicate that. So there's lesson. Number one is if you decide on changes midway through a project. You need to be sure that you've discussed those with the contract.
To understand the implications of signing, you sign something very specific. These are the measurements, so you are then liable if you don't change them in time. Then you can't say, well, they must fix the remedy at their cost. That's just unreasonable to say.
I think it's.
Definitely because these things are expensive. People you know, don't want to accept that it was on them.
Yeah. Yeah. Another example of a case you dealt with was a consumer doing a kitchen island and there was an issue around surfacing materials Stiffney.
Yes. So here the client had gone into showroom and had seen a piece of stone that they liked, but it was a small piece. It was on a sort of a desk sized countertop. And you know what we find with a lot of stones now is they are what we call variegated in pattern and color, which means there's a lot of change in variation in the way the stone and material looks from one side of a
large slab to the other. Now, having made a choice of by only looking at that small sector, this created the problem customers should be and normally are encouraged to go to the supplier of the material, to their slab yard and where they can view a full slab of the material. That's where they can see is the color and pattern consystem from one end to the other or
does it change now? In this case, the piece that the client had seen was very dark black with a little bit of a white sort of veining in it. But the large piece of slab, the full slab and its entirely actually gradiated from dark from dark black to light gray, and the veining became more as it moved to the lighter side. So when his island was installed
with the full slab, he said, yeah, this is not yet. Well, he said, it's not the material I chose, and did not want to accept that this was in fact what he had selected because he had never seen it in itsy.
Was it given the opportunity to go though.
I was going to ask the same question because Stephanie, as a layperson, I wouldn't have known that that there can be that level of variegation. So I guess a lot depends on what you tell the client upfront.
And this is why we encourage all our members and all edits to train their design staff to make sure that that that the consumers advised accordingly. And this is why we also encourage strong relationships between designer and the stone and surface fabricator and that the client gets to talk directly to the stone and surface fabricator rather than just purely operating through the kitchen company. Because this is how the broken telephone wires happen and you don't get the good communication.
I could just jump in there quickly. The same thing happens with leather furniture. So as you always ask to see have an opportunity, tunity to see a larger heart or to be sent a picture before they go and do your bespoke sofa, because people look at a certain in the showroom it might be look like this, and at the actual heart that they because it's natural product and there's different markings and colors and graduations and whatever textures even that then that causes a lot of I mean,
the leather industry, sofa industry has terms of conditions that you know.
Run reams long.
Because of this, natural products are always an issue uniform.
Yeah, okay, just before we carry on to our next case study, apologies, our WhatsApp line does appear to have sort of stuttered again. So if you have sent a question or comment by WhatsApp in the last fifteen minutes or so, can I ask you please to redirect it by email to pip her h at Cape Talk dot co dot or you can call in on two one four four six five six seven. If you don't want to come to air, you can just dictate your message to my producer Vaccine on the other side and she
can type it through to me. We are just not receiving updated WhatsApps at the moment. We have flagged it with our technical team, but apologies. If you have sent something that's not being reflected, please do divert to calling
in or sending an email instead. Stephanie Wendy's just mess used the word bespoke, and I think that leads us neatly into the next case case study of somebody who signed off on kitchen drawings, including elements that were being made specifically to that design, and then had a change of heart sort of once the process was already underway, and was quite taken aback when he said to them,
I've changed my mind. I want to redesign something, and was told well, we've already started manufacturing per the original design. Does that happen? Quite often?
It does, And I think it's just also a lack of understanding, understandably by many consumers, as to how industry operates and what is involved in manufacturing a kitchen. And this is why we've focused so much on consumer education and an empowerment by knowledge because it can solve so
many issues. But we find here, you know that the consumer not understanding that the fact that a kitchen company may be making stuff for up to fifteen different clients at any one time, and once they've begun manufacturing, they've already spent the money on that item. So in this case, that the company had already manufactured and installed, and then the client, having seen it, said well, I don't like it. It isn't what I had in my head. I want
you to change it. But then when the quote came for the changes, they didn't understand why they had to pay a game And here's where you signed off the drawings. This is what you told us to make. It's that bespoke it. And now you've decided you don't like that. That doesn't mean you just get to have it remade for free because the kitchen company cannot reuse that piece of equipment or cabinetry. It's been bespoke made for you
for your space. It's not like you can come out and go back on the shelf and be resolved to someone else.
To my mind, there's there's it's a good idea for the suppliers to be very worthy in their contracts and actually say what you've just said now next to signing against the specifications, to say, please understand that if you please be sure that this is what you want, because if you say you do not like what you chose when you see it done, you will have to pay for any changes to be made. Are your Do you school your members to be that explicit to avoid these kinds of disputes?
We one hundred percent do we actually even offer a service when any of our members can and submit their teas and season contracts just for Avilliant and well look through them and advise them on where we think that they should make changes.
Still with us on the line, Stephanie Forbes, the national manager of the Kitchen Specialists Association. And if you're just tuning in Keithing, you need to know it's a membership of This organization is voluntary, but they are a recognized, certified national body with about two hundred and fifty companies involved in the kitchen refurbishment industry falling under their umbrella.
And Stephanie before the break, was chatting to us about some of the cases that have come their way for dispute resolution in which the consumer was in the wrong Stephanie, We're going to switch the focus natter cases where the consumer was absolutely in the right to be complaining and asking for your help. Thanks again for your patients waiting for us. Shall we start with the fitter who drilled into a water pipe while installing a bathroom vanity.
Yeah, so this is obviously an ops. It can happen, but one would anticipate that someone who's an experienced twitter would have an estuary equipment to test for for any water pipes before drilling into a wall. In this case, he didn't. He drilled through. The client obviously had to call an emergency plumber and then deferred. Wanted to defer the costs to the kitchen company. Kitchen company said, not our not our problem. Our ts and c say we don't.
We are not responsible for any damage. We're not entertaining this and the complaint came to us. Looking into it, we could see absolutely fair your your employee did not
do their due diligence. The consumer had a right to anticipate and expect this kind of professional checking before drilling, and as such, a share of that that cost the cost to to to fix the pipe and repaint, repaint and repair the wall would definitely fall to the kitchen company and make those TS and c's null and void in this case.
Okay, that was the bathroom pipe. Tell us about the condenser dryer story in somebody's kitchen.
Yes, so this is a fairly new condensed dryer purchase. It was installed in some beautiful Duco paint finished cabinetry, a high end product was within warranty, and the condenser section started to leak quite a fair amount of water, which caused damage to the cabinetry. The dryer was repaired, but the kitchen clients supplier should I said, I didn't want to take responsibility for the costs of the cabinetry.
An inspection we could see there was a direct result and that we could identify which of the cabinetry units had been detrimentally affected by the water. And we then stipulated that the appliance company then had to come to the party and cover the costs for those repairs and replacements. Good they Yes, they're one hundred percent.
That was gonna you partly asked my next question, which is Deephanie, if you make a finding like that, are your members obliged to follow through? Do your findings have teeth? As it were?
They are obliged too, That's part of their contract weather so they are obliged to buy it by any ruling that is handed down. Should they not do so, we have a process of what we call addressing that refusal, which can lead to membership termination. That can lead to us taking further action obviously supporting the consumer if they then want to take it legal. So we do have a process of addressing should the kitchen company or the case a member refuse to comply with the ruling we hand down.
Okay, thanks for that, right, Let's move on to our next case study of a consumer who had work done by a branch of a sort of an organization with multiple branches, and that organization is a member of KSC, and I gathered the final snag list is where things ran into trouble.
Yes, so the client had been reporting there was still snagging to do, the job wasn't complete, and the can was sort of kicked down the road. Ultimately, when push came to shove, the branch had closed. The person running the branch had resigned and walked away. Client came to us saying, well, what do I do? I have still a lot of problems. I can't really use some of the items because it hasn't been snagged. How can you help? So we then took the issue to the parent company.
They claimed that they had no responsibility because that branch had its own c Care registration so it was a separate entity where all that it was trading under the name that the parent company had manufactured even though they hadn't been been involved in the installation and the design. And then they also had a duty to then assist the consumer in this case. And here's where we know we like to embrace the letter of the law rather
than the spirit of the law. Rather than the letter of the law, yeah, because you want to say, well, yes, technically you can refuse, but this is the right thing to do, not only for the consumer and CPA compliance, but also for your company's reputation.
Absolutely. So there's there's the law, and then there's you know, it's not a case of just stick to the to the absolute boundaries of the law, but to do what's right as a customer service. A lot of companies kind of get caught up in there. They can't see the bigger picture.
And the bigger picture is the word of mouth reputation of your business. Whether somebody recommends you to their friends and family or says don't go near them with a barge pole is often the result. Right. I think we can squeeze in one more example, Stephanie. This is an interesting I think, sort of parallel to what we were saying earlier with natural stone, natural leather. Wendy was emphasizing, for example, there can be a great degree of variation
in a natural product. But in this case you had a manufactured kind of stone island installation where the customer wasn't happy at the end, and in this case you did find in favor of the customer. Tell us what happened.
Yes, So this is a where product, a porcelain product, so where the pattern is actually printed and baked into the material, and the clients had only realized once the island has been installed, that they could see what didn't look like part of the pattern. It looked like a market didn't fit with the with the patentation on the
on the material itself, we were asked to inspect. Before we were asked inspector, I said that the company, the supplier came in, the fabricator came in, and the supplier had reported back saying there was no flaw in the material, that this was just part of the printing process and part of the natural pattern. Client didn't want to accept it. Understandably,
we were asked to come in and look ourselves. We went into inspect and what we tried to do there is follow what is the natural pattern in the printing technique? And we could seek very clearly that this was not part of the natural flow and pattern throughout the stone. And when we compared with that slab with other slabs that had been installed in the kitchen, we could see it was and blips that had happened during the printing and so it was a flaw in the material rather
than part of its printing and acceptable. And we then put the ruling in that the material had to be.
Replaced before we wrap up One last question in from Keith on the email Well, his comment is everybody must make sure that it's in the contract who is responsible for removing the rubble. He says, my dad had to pay an extra three hundred rand to remove the rubble at the end of his kitchen REFERB. I don't know if that was legal, says Keith Sephany. Would you like to comment sure.
I think where where it's difficult and not everybody understands who is responsible for what in the process, like a kitchen referb. When it comes to breaking down walls, removing tiles, changing plumbing, and removing the old kitchen, most cabinetry companies do not take on that responsibility. There are only a handful of companies out there that really do that whole
turn key solution. Most will stick to their specialization. And where you've got that scenario, the kitchen company normally isn't responsible for breaking things down, so they wouldn't take the responsibility of removing the rubble. It's only if the kitchen company was contracted to do everything, including maybe breaking down walls, plumbing, etc.
Then they should be accountable for removal a rubble. So it is important to check what services the company offers, because the CPA likes to keep people individual the different industry, so the plumber is separate to the builder so that you don't have these kind of of mix up as to who's responsible to whats. And when you've got a turnkey company, it is rare because then they become responsible for everything, and that's when you need to check the fine print on the contract.
Okay, really good question. Yeah, thanks Keith for pointing that out. We must wrap up there, Stephanie. But in just thirty to forty seconds, is there anything else we haven't referenced today that you'd like to flag that anybody who's contemplating a new kitchen installation or refurbishment should ask about upfront or just bear in mind as an important issue.
I think for me, the important thing is do your homework. Don't go in blind just saying, oh, the kitchen company must help me. They're the professionals, they're the experts. Do your homework. You need to have some understanding of what you want, what it might cost, what you're prepared to spend, and there are resources. We have a very comprehensive website. Our social media is always full of hens and tips
and advice. We welcome phone calls emails from consumers if they are not sure what to do, or what materials to look at, or what budget is correct. It's all there. There's a wealth of information and what is going to help consumers is to empower themselves. So by doing some homework engaging with our platforms, they can have a really good idea of what to expect and knowledge so that they can know that is this person I'm talking to talking rubbish or do they know what they're talking about?
You certainly knew what you were talking about. Stephanie Forbes. Thank you so much for your extensive time this afternoon. The national manager of the Kitchen Specialists Association. Their website is KSA dot co dot sed. You can also look for them on social media if you are contemplating a job. Thank you again for your time and expertise, Stephanie, and thank you as always, Wendy Nona, Thank you