Consumer Talk: Fine print on contracts

Lunch with Pipper Hudson and now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola.

It is time for Consumer Talk, and Wendy Nola is with us in studio today, ready to tackle the story of a listener struggle to extricate herself from a gym contract she hadn't realized she was signing up for. What was in the fine print that the salesperson hadn't mentioned in their conversation is the key element of the story today, and it's one what all of us can learn from. So we're going to be hearing from that listener in

Always love you to have you with us.

Wendy, Thank you, Papa, good to be here.

So our complainert this week is doctor l Raton toemvem there, who is a medical doctor practicing in our public service. And I say that to emphasize the fact this is a highly intelligent, well educated woman and If it could happened to her, it could happen to any of us.

Wendy, tell us what happens.

Okay, So there was a request Lato asked on her son's behalf if you could use the gym just for that one single evening and to join his friends. So this was Virgin active in Tiger's Valley, and a staff member at the gym said, yes, of course, you can.

Pay three hundred rand.

And he'll be able to train for the whole month. So she thought, okay, that's fine. She whipped out the card, paid on the little point of purchase machine and was asked to sign a document authorizing, because he's a minor, authorizing her son to use the facilities, which she was told.

And then.

She believed what she was told, and so she signed the document without reading it, as so many people do. This is not going to be a judge show. As much as I've spent decades telling people to please read this small print. There have been times if I wasn't in this job that I wouldn't have either, to be quite honest, And so this happened in late June.

A month later she.

Was contacted by the sales consultant. She never they never connected. And a month after that she was contacted and asked when she's going to make payment, and that's when she found out that she'd actually signed a twelve month contract for her son at four hundred and fifty round a month.

So that's and that three.

Hundred round that she paid was actually the if you looked in the contract, it's the joining fee. So that commitment with a joining fore you were signing that contract border commitment up to just under six thousand and five to seven and.

Seven round for one night's train is what it is. What it came to because he literally only went that way.

He went for the month he went because remember they said if you can, if you pay this three hundred rand to ninety nine, he can gym for the month. And she thought, okay, it was part of it. It was holidays, and she thought, cool, three hundred rand, that's fair enough.

I'll do that, okay, But it turned out to be closer to five thy seven hundred. And when she objected, of course, she was told, you can cancel the contract, but there will be a hefty cancelation fee. As we've spoken about many times, fixed term contracts, do you have that laws written into all of them?

Cell phone, gym, alarmed your armed response contracts, all of them.

So you can cancel and get out of it early, but they're entitled to take a cancelation fee. And as you've told us many times before, Wendy, it's not specified how much or how little that cancelation fee should.

Be the act.

It isn't, but it should be in the contract. That's always something to look for, okay.

So this is, as you say, a classic example the mistakes so many people make of signings something without reading every last word of it, but also of taking for granted that what the salesperson is telling you is what they're putting in the document.

We absorb knowledge like that. It's easier to look at someone in the eye and take note of what they're saying, right, and so there's an element of trust with it's a bank or insure or a gym. You have this natural innate. Well, you've told me all everything our sun and what you're told, and there are those who will take advantage of that, and that's I mean people they're earning a commission. Let's not forget, and you've just got to understand and be

And she does not dispute that she signed the contract.

Does not dispute that. And in fact I actually said to her initially, I'm sorry, this is the case, and this is why I spend so much of my work time giving this advice.

Over and over.

And then I woke up and I thought, ah, she didn't get a copy of the contract. Now, the Act says when you sign in person, the service provider must must not may must provide you with a copy of what you've signed so for her not to walk away. She only saw the contract when when she realized that she signed, and obviously she said, well, I don't have a copy, please give it to me. And because of that, I thought there's a window here, there's a chance that I can help her.

Okay, So we've got Lorata with us on the line. Let's bring her in at this point and say thank you so much. Firstly, Lorata, welcome to the show, but thank you for being willing to share your story on air so that others can learn from your experience.

It's wonderful to have you with us this afternoon.

Hi, Prepa and Wendy, you think, no, thank you for having me.

It's our pleasure. So take us back to the moment when you got that phone call. Well, in fact, let's go further back when you had that first engagement in June with the person who said to you, sure your son can train for three hundred rand for a month. Did, as far as you recall, did anybody say anything during that conversation about the possibility of there being a longer contract beyond the end of a month.

Quite to the contrary, I kept on saying to this person, I am not trying to get into a contract. We just want to train for today and ns me how it goes.

I'm not.

I was very specific, I don't want a contract. And then yeah, so there was no debit order set up. So then that's why I was like, it can be a contract. So no one said this is going to go on for twelve months. Definitely not.

That's the point I'm hearing for the first time here, Rato that and I should affought to ask you. There was no debit order mandate, so that also gave you comfort and to want to head your phone you to say, well, you've got a contract, now, aren't you paying? Okay?

So then I was like if because I've had a virgin active contract before and it was just like the devil order would go. So I told the person the call center that I didn't even sign it. So there is in my in my mind, there's no contract.

Here, Okayta.

I also believe that there was very good reason why you didn't want to even consider taking out a longer term contract because you knew very well that your son would not be able to use it.

Not.

So yes, already. It was June, so he was scheduled for a knee surgery in that was going to happen in September. So there's no ways I would.

He would have been out of action for months.

Yes, And I kept on telling them, but you okay.

So so you get the phone call saying, hey, you owe us some money for your latest month subscription, and you say to them, what subscription?

I don't have one.

That was the first time anybody spoke about giving you a copy of the contract Lerata when you asked for one, were they willing to supply it straight away?

I must be honor. I didn't even ask for a contract when they called me. I was just like, I will come into the to the facility, to the gym and sot this out myself face to face, because yeah, I didn't even ask for one.

Okay, So you were given did you? You were presumably given one when you went into the branch.

No. No, no. When I left there after signing and my son was jimming, there was no documents.

I mean afterwards.

So only once you queried and they said to you, well, we've got to sign a contract.

That was the first time.

Once I queried. Yes, then they sent me the which now like either read this time and I saw actually a contract. I didn't read that time because I trusted what you were saying is what.

Yeah, so many people do.

And so many of us. Would Narata please stay with us.

Let's wear from Wendy what happened when she took this case to Virgin Active. So when you heard the details and realize there's more to this story than just signing without looking.

Yeah, the contract, the missing copy of the contract was was the key thing.

That's a bit of ammunition.

Okay.

So you then reached out to to Virgin Active Tiger Valley and questioned why Lourata hadn't been given a copy of the contract that she had signed, amongst other things.

What response to do?

You actually went, as I always do, to the head of customer service, Jackie Walter. Okay, that's Virgin Active. And she began by saying that as a rule, all Virgin Active members are provided with a copy of their signed membership agreement because they generated digitally and are automatically emailed within five minutes of authorization by our club administrator. And I must say I have had personal experience of that.

Su Yes, riter didn't know she had a member profile because she didn't know she was a member.

No, ye, okay, she said. Jackie says, our contracts are deliberately clear, with key terms membership type, duration and monthly fee highlighted and requiring signatures. Well, she's not initials next to each one, Otherwise Lata's attention would have been drawn to it. I have a big problem in all contracts main contracts, ever, and I'm going, if you're saying they're clear, why not have them initial right there? And then I'll never get a straight answer on that. No memberships can

Action, you have zero proof.

Exactly. We appreciate the nature of commission based sales and for that reason, Virgin Active sales and centives are specifically structured to promote high quality sales, where members who terminate early results in lower commissions. Okay, in doctor Bember's case, we can confirm that her son's agreement fold within the window where the IT error occurred, and the contract was not automatically sent. This was an entirely unintended error and the sales agent.

Could not have had any influence on this.

We checked the member's access history. Basically, they're saying he only did gym for that one month that they thought they had paid.

That's what they thought, that three hundred rand for you.

The consultant question that Lata Dorata said, Jackie, that Raja said that she dealt with He's been with Virgin Actor for more than five years and he has a strong track record. Is that Jim has no prior history of misrepresentation. He recalls the interaction clearly and maintains that the terms were explained consistent with the Sound contract. I will, yeah, maybe we should bring Larato intercomment on that.

Okay, so there we go.

I mean, Larata, as you've said to us before, you remember it very very differently. So just to say categorically again, at any point in your recollection, did he explain to you that what you were signing up for was in fact a twelve month contract and not a one month contract.

Definitely not, Definitely he did not say that, and I he couldn't have said that because I kept on saying and not. I don't under contracts at this point.

Okay, all right, So, as you said, Wendy's it's a difficult one because Larata has no proof of what he said to her because that interaction was not recorded. The only written proof is the contract which exists and does have her signature on, at which she concedes having side bagally binding. But we did have a happy ending in.

Jackie walteron Ahead of Customer Service at Virgin Active said, while the Sound contract is valid and clearly outlines the twelve month terms agreed to agreed by the payer and guardian, we do recognize the context cam which we've described considering this, we were prepared to make a once oft goodwill exception and cancel the contract at no cost and refund any fees deducted. So that was great, and I'm so pleased that I had actually woken up that morning and thought, no, I have to take this up.

Let's just try.

Yeh, let's just try. When I took up the case, though, I said that I'd heard these allegations made about Jim Seals, and not just with one brand across the board, but Jim Sales consultants not being completely upfront about all the terms in the contract, and I've heard them for many, many years now. I said, all the complainants can't be making it up, and the gyms have to know that misrepresentation is a problem in some cases, even if it's in the minority of cases that they are earning commission.

Then?

I said, technology makes monetory easy and in expensive. Why not require that with all face to face interactions leading up to an agreement sign up, that there's they recorded. I mean, we have these devices on our phone. Technology makes everything quick and easy.

Right, It would be so easy to hit record and just make a recording of the whole conversation.

The salesperson must be heard telling it like it is, so in the largest case, saying right, you're two nineteen nine as you're joining fee. The minimum contract we have is twelve months. You're going to be paying four fifty. If you need want to cancel before that, you're going to have to pay a cancelation penalty. This is a woman. I mean, think about the balance of probabilities here. Whose son is going to go in for an operation in September which is going to render him unable to gym

One crutches after sales crutches exactly.

And he said walking stick. So the answer was, and I said, if armed with such a recording, if a new member or their period of guardian later logism is selling complaint, that recording could be sourced, and just knowing that they are being recorded would surely be a deterrent to sells consultants who feel tempted to fudge the truth.

Yeah, that was the response.

Was while recording all face to face into actions is not feasible due to the nature of the inn club sales process and a number of off site activations. I mean, those are just words as far as I'm going to do. They don't make any scene.

They're saying they're too many of these and they happen in too many places, is what I'm reading. And I'm saying that's nonsense, because Elergy is a cell phone on them and you can hit record on it doesn't matter where you are, whether you're in the gen or advertising in the shopping center, and.

They're not initially next to the actual it's four one hundred and fifty rand four twelve months.

We your attention to that you have, so that's a bit of a carpard. I think, okay, let's just before we must hand over to the news team.

Larato.

I mean obviously a one for you in that that the amount has been reversed and you're off the hook for the rest of the contract. But I'm sure you you've learned a lesson or two in the process.

Anything before I sign you, Yeah, before we let you go.

I hope your son is all right as you had your surgery, as he back on his feet.

Yes, he so has the breath and stick.

He is okay. So there's the proof.

Absolutely if anybody darted Larata's story that he would not be able to use the chair.

Well, the Rata, we wish him well and you well.

Thank you very much for for being prepared to share the story with us on air today.

Thank you, thank you, thank you to repay.

You as you've just have. You've come on and shared your story with.

That absolutely and if you could see the smile on Wendy's space, that's that I think she is. She considered herself repaid with that, thank you to thank you for that.

CAPSL Consumer Talk WhatsApp on seven t five six seven one five six seven.

We're still talking about the gym contract that was for something entirely different from what the purchase of thought she was signing up for. And we've got a couple of people responding with kind of me too stories and follow up comments and questions. Let's start with Chammayin, who says I had exactly the same scam happened to me many years ago. I signed up for a so called trial period only to find that and actually signed on for three years. The employee was not there anymore. When I

In December, I was charged.

At the new annual rate, which I found very annoying because I hadn't even been with them for a year, only two months, and then got hit with an increase.

Is that allowable?

It is allowable if it's in their contract. It's what happens with self and contracts. All the network service providers do it. It drives people mad because we don't have the right to unilaterally decide during the course of a fixed term contract that we're going to pay less. We are committed to that legally, and yet the clause in

You know, there'd be a big media and.

Social media storm, but they do do it. I mostly get complaints about self and contracts, but on occasion that gyms do it, but less often.

Okay, thanks for that.

Phil says, my son is a lawyer and he is the one in the family who reads all and any contract before he signs anything. He doesn't allow anyone to push him into it. He does have the advantage and that he speaks legal.

I love that.

Phrase, But Phil says, I am also trying to be more careful. It's yeah, it's great if you've got one in the family who can check things for you as well.

But he does say that the Consumer Protection Act, and certainly way up to Treasury level, they are very big on requiring companies to present these terms of conditions in layman's language. Yeah, and simple understandable language. But you see Legallyese dominating.

Still, okay, we've got a voice not in from Fran as well, who wants to make a comment on a Larato story.

Let's take a listen to that.

Surely, in a contract like this, when you sign it in person, I mean it should be right up top twelve month gym contract in bold letters like it's very clearly on top, and this should be this is what this contract is about. Isn't that like part of the Consumer Protection Act?

It's not specifically in there. I wish it was, because I spent a lot of my working life saying, why didn't you make that big put it in a special box and make them initial to the stick keep it. In fairness, I did look at the LATA shared her contract with me, and I've seen a lot worse. It actually was fairly clear. I think she should have been made to initial and there's never any reason why, espec she faced her face that you wouldn't want somebody to

Yeah, yeah, it's so.

But the actual layout I've seen a lot worse. It wasn't buried, and it was quite it was quite plainly set out. To the point is that she was told one thing is so different, and she repeated her circumstances several times, and so she felt there was a meeting of the mind and that she didn't have to But as I said, this is a really good case to say never trust.

Unfortunately, you can't. You can't take what.

The salesperson says, with a pinch of salt and apply laser like focus to the words. But we don't do that because it's easier to stand in front of someone and absorb the words they're saying, then sit down and have to labor.

Through pages of legal ease tiny print.

It's hard work. But why is it hard work?

You know it shouldn't be hard work. Yeah, I hear you, Wendy.

There's a recent.

Ruling in the banking sector on this that you wanted to flag, just to emphasize again this point that honestly, legally, you are liable for what you've signed. And I mean, you know this is the main thing we have to emphasize today. You must read what you sign signing, whether it is a contract, whether it is a speeding fine or whatever.

It may be, no matter what the brand, because.

You know, you need to understand what the ramifications of that document are that you might that might not have been pointed out to you, you know, as forthrightly as you expect.

What was the banking history.

This was a man who bought a car and in twenty eighteen, it was over six years and he thought it was outright because the FN I the financial insurance person and the dealership didn't mention anything about a balloon payment. He trusted his bank. He said he wanted to have a chat with a banking consultant, and the banking consultant didn't say anything about the balloon. So he says there's

Yeah, okay, So do you sign a document at your risk You are attaching your commitment to its terms as they appear in that document. Whether or not you read them or thought there was something else is irrelevant. The terms you have signed to are the terms you were obliged to obey.

Oby Having said that, I wish the courts and the legislators are the way around, would apply themselves to really looking carefully at these documents and actually giving very specific or legislating very specific requirements about what our listener was just saying. Put twelve month contract at the top, make it hard to miss, make people initial next to the sticky bits, the bits that could trip them up. I mean, it's a known fact that many people sign balloon deals

Yes, but they had it wasn't.

It wasn't made absolutely hard to miss in the contract, and there's no excuse for that. That should be so, I think the legislators are missing a trickier fense of consumers.

It should be.

There should be more done to draw attention, to draw attention to the really important bits.

Absolutely, and it's easy to do that.

Yeah, to put in a little box saying I hear by sign that I understand this to be a twelve month contract.

For example, in Laarata's case.

Tanya writing and to say, I lived in Harmanas and wanted to hit some balls at a driving range in the strand when I was visiting my mom for a weekend. Had a very similar experience. They also offered me a deal for the weekend, which I signed, only to discover it was for two years. I had signed that deal. I fought tooth and nail. I ended up paying three hundred rand art for two years. I was a professional golfer. I know the range rules well, but I fell for it. Hook line and sinker, says Tana.

Thank you, for sharing that.

That's very very yeah, so.

Not only in the gym environment, Jay asking Ray the gym contract. Could LORAATA not simply lay a charge of fraud with the police with with what evidence? Yeah, she got no way of proving it's a he, she said, yeah, so so hens Matt, I want to prove it. Yeah, Okay, thank you so much. We're going to take a very short break and then come back with some other open line calls and happy to take some more open line

Consume and talk open line call. Oh two one double four six oh five six seven.

Oh, we've got a doozy of a voice note in by the looks of thing, about another example of signing contracts without checking the fine print. Let's take a listen to what Ian has to say.

Okay, what I suggestion is this a friend of mine signed a contracted by a house there was a fourtune day payment clause. She's try overseas and she can get the money, but not within the fourteen days. She's not in dispute because she can't get the money, but she has asked for a station and the seller has has denied that extension. But when signing the contract, she spoke to the state agent that exclaimed to the state agent

Yikes.

Never believe anyone assurances about things like that, anyone earning a commission, particularly earning a commission. I just can't. That is shocking, But I'm not the.

First time I've heard that.

Don't worry, just sign it. It's just a formality. It won't be enforced.

Yes, yes, it doesn't matter what she told you.

And even in some of these contracts, there will be a clause that says, no matter what assurances you were given by one of our representatives, it's null and void. Only only what's in this contract is valid and binding. So that is thank you for that. It's horrible. I hope it resolves without too much financial harm done.

To your friend.

Your friend, I mean, does she has can she take that up with the property practitioners.

She's got to prove the person said it. If it was an email, she might have a chance. People who do that don't not normally that silly.

As to put it in writing which bit of advice.

On the fixed term contract thing? And it could be in any actually, in any situation, if you have anything around that's got a financial commitment from you, is taking if you if I don't agree with taking. I don't advise people to take out a contract on the phone. What insurance policy? But if you are going to do it, stop and make sure you have a recording app downloaded onto your phone and just take a beat to say I'm recording this, because they'd also give the person the other end pauses to.

What promise yes?

And and if you in a face to face situation and they don't give you a copy. Just realize you need to have proof of what you've agreed to, So take a picture with your phone and also record the sales process that don't freak them out if they are intending to pull the ball over your eyes. Okay, and you've got proof.

This is the takeaway from the show, is your own evidence. Read the small print, never ever ever sign something that you haven't read, and create your own proof what you've said.

Take photographs of that.

If they're not giving you a copy of the documents, take photographs with your phone.

Videos record the interaction.

When I started in consumer journalism, we didn't have any of this technology at our fingertips. Make your cell phone spend work for you. You've got these unbelievable little computers with us all the time, most of us. You can use them to create your eviden and get you out of these sort of situations. So please, would you let us know what happens with your friend of our listeners.

Still, I really hope she's able to extricate herself from that. Thank you for that, Maureen saying, medical centers another guilty party here who ask you to initial dozens of paragraphs and rush you through it without giving you time to read what you are signing, and also do not give you a copy of the contract to read after signing.

Not okay as well, I would say out of them, but my experience, if I making a point or with a new medical service provider, they will send you the forms. You know they're doing it to save time to send them to you in advance. And I think that's a much better protocol because you have your own copy and then you have also the time the evening before to go through it and make sure you're happy with all the thought that was going to hold you to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, we're going to change check completely. Oh Sharon, just sorry before we leave this one, Sharon saying Jim. Contracts also have a clause allowing you to cancel within five or seven days of signing.

They need to point that out as well.

The sort of a cooling off clause. Is that a standard clause as far as you know, I mean, I know it is. It's essential if you've bought something online and I've had a change of heart, they have to give you that week's cooling off.

If it's only if you only get legally the benefit of that clause automatically if it's as a result of direct selling, so they'll have, you know, a little stand in the middle of them all and they draw pull you in to say come, come, have this, have a free trial whatever. If that's the case, you then never seven day cooling off period because they initiated the whole thing out to you.

So that wasn't the case in Larato's case because she went to them asking for it. They didn't come to her and say, hey, how about a gym contract? Okay, thanks for for the clericy and they have it.

They should point it out, but it's not a legal requirement if you initiate the transact contact.

Okay, great, all right, completely different up topic all together.

We got a voice ride in from Robin. Let's take a listen.

I could afternoon. My name is Robin, and I have a problem with William Simpson. I gave him my car to have it fixed. They held the car for I think it's nearly a year, but.

To eleven months, and after the eleven month, after complaining and saying, oh for was the progress, they just gave my car back without fixing it. And for that eleven months I stood on the roof of the building in the sun and it damaged the paint to the point where the paint was peeling off my car from standing in the elements not covered or And then they gave it back with the flat wheel and a dead battery and it was a lot of scratches and damage and

I need some assistance.

Please point me in the right addition, because now I'm sitting with double the miss.

The car must be fixed.

I went through in a team to hijacking because I didn't have a vehicle to borrow a vehicle from somebody, And while I was waiting for my car to be fixed, I went through the team to hijacking. Tsuna, I'm must pay for this person's call that I borrowed that they tried to isijac.

I have to pay for that to be fixed, and I must pay for my vehicle.

I think it's grossly unfair and I need help desperately.

Please, Wendy, how are your face?

Yeah?

No, I'm so sorry. Robin, that's just a really difficult one. First of all, to hold them blable for the state of the car, you would have to have evidence of, you know, with the state of the car beforehand. So you know, it's the kind of thing that the dealers will do when they're trying to sell you a car, so very close up pictures and videos of the state of the car, so that you can prove this is what the car was like, and this is what it's like.

What do you give it back to me like?

And this is a case for a lawyer.

This really I can't see and that's going to that's care experence on top of I mean just I mean, this is useless advanced for you now, but I would never leave a car for eleven months. Get involved, find out what they're doing with their car. Is it being looked after properly?

What is the delay?

I mean, you should know within a month or two if you're looking at whether parts are available, when they're coming, what the scenario is for it to go on as long as eleven months, it's seldom going to end well. So just to you know, be very involved with the process and you know, document what your car is like. When it went in the mileage, all of that, the full condition of the car, and then you know, be involved.

I mean, it's ridiculous.

So sorry, my aunt is more adviced for other people than helpful for Robin.

I'm rob and take that to the ombit.

They wouldn't deal with something like that. It's not a mechanical issue. Maybe the consumer goods and services on board is an option because that's a service provision. I mean that the product happens to be a car, but it could be a watcher, it could be at table or anything, so.

Okay, so might perhaps that's the interim step before you spend money on lawyers. Robin is to try and approach the consumer goods and services on But and he wants.

To look we technically even named the service for about it. If he wants to send me an email, I could give them the right of reply. I think we probably should do that.

Yeahs named Okay, so Robin, if you could send an email to Wendy on Consumer at Nola dot co dot z spelled kno w l e R. She knows a lot about consumer affairs Consumer at Nola dot co dot ze. Just set out what you've explained to us, the date that you dropped the car off, the date it was retrieved, the damage that you have mentioned in that voice, note the particular branch that you had left it at, who

And BC if there's a way to define some restitution. We have to leave it there.

Wendy, as always, thank you so much for being with us, and at least we have a win this week for a writers