Consumer Talk: Cancelling a cell phone contract

Lunch with Pippa Hudson and now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nolla.

Wendy's back in the studio with us today. Always good to have you on the show. Wendy, welcome, thanks so.

Much, Papa, good to be back in person, and yeah, nice to have you here.

We are talking, as I've mentioned, about cell phone contracts and getting out of them when you want to cancel. I'm also happy to make some space for open line calls towards the end of the hour, So do you send your question on seven two five six seven one five six seven. I hope everybody has taken their blood pressure medication, is what I want to say first, because

Okay, So, anyone who's ever tried to cancel a fixed term contractor it's not just cell phones, it's also vehicle tracking that's happened to me. Jim, whatever the chances are you ahead with a very hard cell pitch and an attempt to keep you tied to the company, to get you to contract further, so you want to say goodbye, and they keep trying to make you stay with all

Let never let him go.

And I think of that every time I get one of these complaints, because it's a game which the cel phone companies in particular like to play with their subscribers who want to cancel the contracts. But it's not nearly as much fun, at least not for the subscribers.

So having taken up to such.

And never letting go cases recently, sort of at the same time, I thought it was a good time for us to revisit this issue, tell these stories and maybe because or not, maybe definitely give some solid advice on what you should do, what your rights are, the kinds of blocking mechanisms that the companies use, and to be they valid or not. Spoiler alert, they're not valid.

Thank you for that. Okay, So I mean you, as you point out, Wendy, if you're an Emptyn customer, the first clue that it's not going to be easy to get out of a contract is the email address that you're obliged to you.

You know, you have to get a hold of retentions.

Retentions department handles cancelations.

Yes, I've never had anybody say to me how ridiculous that it's retention.

There should be cancelations.

But it just becomes sort of normal, Like you upgrade your contract.

You're not upgrading. That sounds like you caught a luck.

On a plane, you know, being upgraded to business class or seat. You're choosing to get yourself committed to a completely new contract with possibly in probably different terms. It's sort of upgrading they want, but it sounds so much, but it sounds almost obligatory and sort of lovely, like a favor that you're going to upgrade.

It's not.

You know, we get so sort of bamboozled by the marketmology.

Yes, so we start using it ourselves, Like people write to me about their one seater that went wrong.

It's a chair, but the industry fair the three seat of the two seaters and the ones that chair.

Yeah, okay, So our first case study today is from Nicky and Claremont, and I mean this is this just says it all, Wendy, Because if ever there was a case where a cancelation was obviously needed and there was never going to be a renewal of this contract, and that should have been obvious from the very very start. It should have been a simple case of please cancel this contract, yes, thank you very much, we will, and

Okay, it had moved on to a month two month basis, so he wasn't locked into a fixed term contract, meaning he could cancel at any time with a month's notice. So important thing to say right up front. Still, after all these years. Many people think, especially with their gym contracts and with their cell phone contracts and the tracker contracts, that if the end date is the fieth of November, then it's just going to automatically stop fall away along with your obligations.

But it doesn't. It rolls over.

The industries talked the Consumer Protection Bill back in the day, they saying, you know, it will prejudice consumers if it just automatically expired, because they could find themselves in an emergency situation, not realize their cel phone contract had expired, and not be ultimate an emergency call that kind of thing. So it rolls over onto a month to month basis, meaning it will carry on doing that until you give

And as you said, I mean, there's just no way there are no circumstances and no contracts going to be renewed. Even if they said we will give you a fifteen thousand round iPhone for free, there was no point very much just cancel it, okay. So you would have thought that even the most bulldoggish of agents would see that and would also have some compassion for the circumstances Wendy to say, we've received your notification and we'll action it right away. So that is not what happened.

This isn't a case of them trying to build oze Nicki into taking out something else in her father's contracts place. It was just that she didn't get anywhere for weeks and weeks.

It just stoled.

Nicky's with us on the line. So let's bring her in at this point. And Nikki, I'm so sorry to hear about your dad, And I'm sure with all that you must be dealing with in that situation, I'm sure the very last thing you needed was grief over a cell phone contract. That's not needed. But thank you so much for joining us and being willing to share your experience with us today.

Thank you, and hello, nice to be with you.

Nice to have you on the show Nikky. I understand that when you first attempted to cancel this contract, it actually started quite well. Tell us what happened when you made that first call to empty and on the eleventh of September.

So when I furned through, I was put through to an agent and she very quickly said, I can't do this because it's a third party. She wanted to speak to my dad. My dad has no language, you know, he has a phasire, so he can't speak at all, and even if he could, I don't think he would be able to know, you know, he wouldn't be able to answer any questions. So I explained the situation and she said, you know, she doesn't.

Know what to do.

So I asked if she could put me through to someone who could. So that was in a way of first surprise for me, because I would have expected that there must be many circumstances where an individual can't cancel their own contract and so somebody would need to do it on their behalf. But anyway, I got put through to someone and he was very helpful. He told me I had to either get a letter from my dad's GP or doctor saying that he was ill and sent me my ID and his ID and or I could

I am too. I'm so glad you got somewhere, Wendy, and tell us what you what steps you took.

I first want to just backtrack a bit, because NICKI did warm them all those departments, and that original agent that she was going to do that she currently I think you emailed them on a Thursday, Nikki, and you said if you haven't if I haven't heard, and it wasn't in bold.

Capital letters or aggressively, no.

Nothing like that.

She just said, if I haven't heard from you by Monday, then I'm going to contact Wendy Nola, and whoever read it or didn't read it, they didn't get back to it.

So she didn't get hold of you, and you got hold of me, and you've got a response much more quickly than Nicky did I did.

I've got a very swift response, which is gratifying but annoying.

I'm not the customers.

Yeah, there needs to be a system and place where Nicki could get hold someone internally. That's the troubleshooter to say, like, I've.

Been with us for weeks, they doesn't. They don't seem to have us kick up.

They have escalations to the CEO's office. And then there's the media handling division for people like me, and they are super.

Efficient media the media in all.

The telecoms companies, most of them are big ones. They very responsive, but so at least.

You know, if I may just say, they're very responsive to the media because they know how often they're going to be in the media because of the education. Yes, okay, so what person say to you?

So there was a big apology. First, I was told that Nicki's dad's contract had been canceled with no penalties. Penalty exactly, and the reason I asked quite a lot of questions. Obviously, they had a comprehensive investigation to why Nicki was ghosted.

It revealed that she did follow the correct process.

In calling EMPTN and emailing retentions, and she was correctly advised on the documentation that she was required to supply. Four interactions were misrouted or incorrectly escalated, for example, mails sent to collections and legal which she was desperate alone. She wasn't getting responses from the other Unfortunately, these were not redirected or acknowledged, which is not acceptable. No customer contact should ever go unnoted or resolved. Tell that to

Multiple emails from Niki as well.

Yeah yeah, just because I mean it's their job to process instructions, so widely they do it.

I think you said it was about five times, Nikia, right, five separate roundhouts lost count.

I think there were more. Five was just desperate. I'm repeating myself here. I haven't heard from you anybody. Yeah yeah, yeah.

So MTN says this case has highlighted a gap and internal handling of vulnerable customer scenarios. And one we deeply regret. I think they're referring to your father being vulnerable, but I think you felt pretty vulnerable to Nikki in the situation. I was told that immediate steps are being taken to make the necessary fixes. That's my summary of quite a long paragraph empty and claims to understand.

Because sorry, I've got a problem with.

You making people write to Retentions when they want to cancel, because that tells me and them that it's not going to be as simple sorry to see you go, thank you for your custom process, which would be the appropriately graceful way to let yourself describer go, but that it was going you were going to be bombarded with please stays in the form of this offer and that offer and all the rest. So they took my point and said, we understand your concern about the having to deal with

Yeah, if you have to think about that one, you've already missed the.

Has cancelations and I'm pretty sure at one point they also used to have retentions, so I'm not convinced that there will be much of a naming evolution because the company went on to say this is empty end that many customers who expressed the desire to cancel actually trying to resolve service issues, and when those are addressed, they choose to stay.

But the retentions team.

I was assured, is there to ensure that customers are fully informed and supported but not obstructed. I'm sure Litten is going to have something to say about that. The email box. This is something at least is managed. This is retentions directly by Empty n not third party sales teams, and we have strict quality controls to prevent undue pressure.

Okay, so Nikki, they've responded to Wendy, Have they got back to you. Has the contract actually now been canceled? Has that been communicated to you?

No, No, one's actually communicated from Empty and directly with me. I'm checking my dad's bank statement. Yeah, so I will check it this month to make sure that I didn't actually know that they weren't going to impose the extra month penalty. So I've been yeah, I will check his bank statement, but I haven't had any response.

It's not it's not a penalty. Sorry to jump, it's not a penalty. It's the notice period.

They indicated they go to Rembicki for the exto months.

They know they see.

It's quite interesting, Nikki that everything you know has been is what you've heard Viro you.

I didn't realize that.

I thought you'd been contacted directly, so that's not shocking.

So even after so they've agreed to cancel it to you, Wendy, but they haven't actually come back to Niki to say we apologize firstly for what you've been through and you confirming we are going to cancel the contract. It actually hasn't happened in person to their customers still, which is just I'm sorry, that's sounds give me.

I must say, there's a part of me that is wondering whether I'll be writing to Wendy to say, just come off my father's accounts again, because I haven't received anything.

I should have interrogated that with no penalties. I think what it means though, is often there is a penalty to pay if you're in a contract and now you want to cancel early. But I think the notice period will apply so that don't be surprised if there's a last debit order of what was it two fifty eight or something in that region at the end of this month, that will be the last. And if it's not the last, and please let us know.

Thank you just before we let you go. Nikki, I mean, how do you feel about I mean, how has this process made you feel about the experience at the MPTN. Because it's one thing to get a resolution in the end and have Wendy be able to tell you the contract is going to be canceled, But I mean the frustration that you've gone through, the amount of time you have wasted chasing all that. How you know, how are you feeling at this point?

So I'm an I'm grateful that they've given Wendy this response, it's it hasn't left me with a good feeling. I haven't. I don't feel positive. I certainly won't take art and MT and contract myself right now, you know, just because I feel like the whole situation, I don't feel like I think it was a complete lack of response. I really do understand that people don't want to just cancel

To be honest, Nicky, I'm so sorry you've had this terrible run around, but thank you so much for being willing to join us on air to share the experience with us today and really, fingers crossed, toes crossed and everything else that I canceled cross hoping that it is resolved. You're not alone. Interestingly, Jay's written in saying I had a very similar situation a few years ago. After weeks of the same kind of red tape that NICKI has had, I eventually rang back and just said I was the

I'm shocking.

It's so let me just share with our listeners for the record. According to empty in, this is how you go about canceling contract for somebody who is, as they put it, incapacitated. So you've got to email went further notice retentions at emptn dot com. You've got to include a certified copy of the account holder's ID, medical proof of their incapacity, proof of your relationship and AFFIDAVID or birth certificate in the case of children of the account holder, and then your contact details.

Okay, and it's still as skillful now to retentions at empty dot com. Well, we have a bother comcase to share after the eyewitness news and some more listener feedback as well. Join the conversation. Join the conversation with Kep talk well before we go onto the Vodicom case. Another

I've had a case like that before, one or two and I take it up and they go, no, it's nonsense, we'll we'll deal with the call center agent.

I mean, what nonsense is that?

And the other thing I want to talk about is that I've had cases where the self phone company has prescribed to the person on the way that they should cancel. So they've said, no, we only accept cancelations on the phone, or no you can't, you can't phone as send us an email. The Consumer Protection Access only that you must give a month's notice in some recordable form. So as long as the call centered was their call center, and as long as that email address was valid email address

But actually the lived.

Experience of people is this sort of nonsense. You must go people. Actually that case was a cel C case. I think, no, you must you've only that's right. The bandanas is now coming back to me. You have to cancel on a particular day. You have to do it on the first otherwise you kind of do what a lot of it's this never letting go, bizarre kind of

Yeah, okay, we have a second case study today. And NICKI wasn't the only one at grappling with the cancelations problem, and it wasn't only empty, and we also heard it around about the same time from Yvonne Meyer having similar difficulty canceling a Voticom contract.

Sure, so it wasn't anything to do with incapacitation. She was actually on behalf of herself, so NICKI he is sorry. Yvonne, who is seventy she left South Africa two years ago November twenty twenty three, to live with her daughter in Ireland, and she kept a contract going. It was due to expire or end in February of twenty twenty four, so she says, I know many well sorry. She cleverly because a lot of people assume that their contracts, as I

Yeah, to be so the instruction was not followed. She's not only built incorrectly, she's then I mean the indignity of being handed over to debt collectors, which obviously is a huge concern for people that impacts your credit record. The knock on impact to that kind of stuff is huge.

She said in her email to me, I write Verticom every month, and I explained that I gave proper notice of cancelation and my February twenty twenty four payment should have been my final one.

I've told them to go back and.

Listen to the recording. And this is the other thing we've spoke about, trying to that recording stanzas proof of what was said or wasn't said then, but now you need it as the You don't have your own recording, which is why I say always make your own recording. And now you have a dispute and you just can't get through to them around just call the recording up it or prove what I'm saying, and you.

Just get coosted.

So yeah, so bottom line was more than a year later, she's still blacknestant and still being held responsible for the unjustified debt. She said, I just need them to close my account and stop hounding me for money. Their call center messed up, she said, So.

What happened when you contacted votcom.

So I put it to them that firstly, maybe you know, this is a hot point for me because a I'm getting older and be you know, my parents and my friends' parents are in this situation where they, you know, are less and less able to handle their own affairs. So I put it to them that older folk, who have always paid their dues, for them to suddenly be accused of owing money that they don't actually own is massively stressful.

So it's not just an impact.

It doesn't just impact them financially, but emotionally as well.

It is real trauma for them. It deeply unsettles.

Them, not just older people.

Yeah, but I think to some extent they feel more vulnerable around it, you know. So again, in this case, I got a very swift response from Vertocom, and Yvonne got almost instant justice. In fact, more than she thought that she was entitled to. The response from Verticom was we acknowledge that Yvonne did indeed contact a Vertcom call center to cancel her contract. We've also listened to the recordings and we can confirm that the agent did not

They're going to reimburse her for those extra.

Emit, yes, and they're going to well, they requested that her payment profile be updated on credit bureau because now she's blacklisted as a non pair.

Okay, so her credits record is the money is being refunded, so obviously a great result. Yes, But I mean, as you've said now before, the issue here Wendy is neither Ivon nor Nicky should have had to go to the kind of lengths of coming to the media to get the simplest of instructions. I'm issuing you with notice of cancelation,

Rob he says.

He said he had the experience of trying to cancel his elderly parents' Votocom contracts.

He says, absolutely exhausting, exhausting. They are like dogs with bothes.

No matter how many times you tell them you just want to cancel, they have a million spills about special offers and free incentives and you're a special platinum customer. One feels for the poor people in the call centers, as I believe they are measured on how many cancelations

To deal with that department again. Yeah, here's another example of the kind of nonsense that gets set. I mean, listen to Abdul I retired and wanted to move from a Votericon vip read to a lower priced contract. Retentions inform me they cannot do it. I have to go in person to the Vodicon shop and canal walk. What's funny, I've just says, I refuse to go to a shop. Why when I'm able to move to a higher contract via attentions, why should I have to go to a shop to move to a lower contract.

Very, very good point. It's just laughable. Really, it is laughable. So everything with it that that involves you getting committed to them or committing to pay them more is easily done. Downgrading your contract or getting out altogether.

We'll put every obstacle way. Yeah, we've got a couple of voice notes that have come through. Let's take a listen to one of those, and remember you can carry on sending WhatsApps to O seven two five six seven one five six seven.

Yeah, thanks for a very very good topic just today. I think these companies are disgusting. I think Nikki's description of the word vulnerable is very apt, and I think one needs to think very caft before taking a contract. We kept my dad on pay as you go, thank goodness, because a he has neither a computer nor a smartphone, and we were trying, they trying to pressure us into a contract, and I kept him on a pay as

Yeah, I agree. Another voice note in from Larry, I think can we take listen to that.

I had a very similar experience with vodocram. My dad died on the eighth of June twenty twenty two, and ever since then, I've been struggling to cancel his agreement, his contract. And then the thing is that's really strange is that I paid on a monthly basis. I could see what was coming off. So when I eventually when I phoned them, and I've firll spoke to so many people and they couldn't help, and they couldn't help anything.

One mont to thank you, I'm so sorry you've been through that. So as Evan writing, my father died and empty and still send him an account more than two years later, he wasn't even tied into a contract. I will never use empty and personally or for my business, as you said, Wendy's that's the point people get to. They just went go, I'm walking away, and I will never do business with this company again.

Yeah, I'm thinking I'm to get my mom into a pace.

You go, Yeah, I mean I've been on one for a long time now, because I just simply took the decision that I will never take out another contract with MTN. But I know it's going to be no better anywhere else, so I'll just go the pay as you go route for the rest of my life, I think. Peter says. We also tried to cancel a Votcom contract. I recorded the conversation, and after two years, when they again phoned me, I simply sent the copy of that recording to Votercom.

The other thing is when people cancel retailer accounts, it is so hard to get them to supply you a letter that says the count is canceled and it was fully paid up and is now canceled. I went through this exercise myself years ago, back in the days when I used to get a Christmas bonus, and I used it to close a lot of the re some of them had opened as a consumer research exercise, and I did it on a personal level, and I also did it to document and share my experience as a consumer journalist.

Wow.

To get those letters, to get them to it's it's ridiculous because if they come at you afterwards, years later and claim that you owed money, you don't have that letter to.

Say, yes, yours, I've given you that.

I've never back down, no matter how hard.

They make it, no matter how many times your ghosted. Just keep on until you get that letter.

Your talk WhatsApp on O seven to five six seven one five six seven right, several people asking how to cancel with votcom Wendy, So you gave us the information for MTN as that retentions email address. Where do you go if you want to cancel with voterko.

Okay, so you can go into a store. And the same applies for empty inn which if you've got the time, you've got to walk away with a piece of paper saying you canceled, right, So that's that's the laborious way of doing it. Their cancelation department is zero A two one nine five eight two for Protocom nineteen fifty eight. Easy to remember if you're born in that year. I would say, if you're doing it over the phone, follow

Several people also asking other than coming to Wendy to take her O case, and you can't just emphasize again, Wendy can't take up every one of these cases. You would be doing nothing else seven days a week if she did. Is there a watchdog? What should be about on? But to complain to whill you go?

So if it's a.

Technical issue, I would say you can go to CASA. But if it's a service issue such as this, you're trying to cancel a fixed term contract that defaults under the Consumer Protection Act, and then so your avenue would be the consumer goods and Services on.

Board Consumer goods and Services. Okay, thank you for that, Sheila. Listen to this one. She says, I lost my phone in early October. I took out a contract which included a new phone the next day. I hadn't been keen to take out another contract for a new one, but I was persuaded it was a good idea. Over the next few days, I thought about it and decided it hadn't been a good idea, and that I should buy the phone outright and cancel the three year contract i'd

Concerned, unless she took it out over the phone.

I was going to say, I think she just confused what applies to an online sale versus an in person.

So what online sale? It must be a direct marketing sale. So they called you up out of the blue to say you quit for an upgrade of whatever terminolnergy they want to use. But in other words, they initiated the transaction as opposed to you initiating it by either making the call yourself or walking into a store of your own free will and at your time of your.

Choosing to do it.

So if you went into a store and did it, they didn't have to actually cancel it at all.

Okay, So they are right in saying, okay, So.

I'm surprised it's only six hundred rand. Frankly, I'm not saying it's fair, but I'm saying legally, they could have just said.

Sorry for you.

You're liable for the whole contract that you signed up for. Okay, there's no such thing as seven day by is remourse on phone contracts. Again, that wouldn't be true if Vodacom had called her and say, hey, we're offering a special do you want to take to if it would be onlin.

Line sorry no, if they'd sorry not online, if they had phone two yes, if they had being direct marketing, so they initiated it. She was going about her business, got this call and as a result of the sales call, thought okay, yes, I'm going to do it.

Absolutely.

It's five business days, so effectively a week in most weeks.

Just cancel it and you know.

Okay, So they're not they're not strictly correct in saying it doesn't apply to phone now. Very does apply if it's through direct marketing. But Sheila, unfortunately you initiated this, this this purchase and this contract. You went to them saying I've lost my phone. I need a new one and a new contract to go with its. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply. They are right in saying it doesn't apply in this circumstance, but it's fudging the truth to say

Windy and prepared canceling contracts. My mom died eight years ago. I canceled her TV license, gave them the dats to figure, went in myself to hand in all the documents, and they keep sending me notices that Mom's TV licenses over you and I'm going to bed and she's going to be handed over. She owns examount. I just ignore it. But it's eight years. What a waste of somebody's time.

Being built to this NBC by the lawyer.

Yeah oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, all right, So just to sort of circle back and summarize, if you are going to cancel retentions, is the department to quit n VOTERICOM has that that that owe it to ninety eight.

Let them tell you.

I would say, even if you do it over the phone, make you in recording and then say I want to actually have a record of this, to which email addresses us, I send my cancelation notice, and then you've got it on the recording as well, and then you send it. It's worth an extra sort of double process. So that they come after you.

You can.

You've got a written proof vastly predicted. That's very good advice, Wendy, thank you for that. Okay, do you talk?

Consume it talk email Wendy on consumer at Lola dot seal don't today.

I like this comment from Jenny. She says, if the person has already died and the estate is wrapped up, let them pursue it. That's what I did with telcom af my mom died. They mailed me with threats and I told them to sue her. Then they wouldn't have had much like with that way. Jenny, thank you very quickly. Wendy. An interesting follow up from last week's show that I wanted to share with you and get a view on

It's the whole supply chain. But you give your money to the retailer and so they are responsible for ensuring that their uplin is complying with the CPA. So it's not enough to shrug your shoulders and say, oh, let's our supplier. You've got to ensure that you choose suppliers that are going to comply with the presiding legislation and.

Hop out, and if they're not, you've got to tell them we're not going to engage with you at work with you if you cannot fulfill the legal obligations, because we're then legally libel. Surely that's the correct response, not just please put it in. It's please put it in, and if you won't, we won't do business with you.

Their reputation at stake because the most consumers won't be able to engage with the supplier. They engage with the retailer, they hand the money to the retailer. So's that's an unfortunate and disappointing response.

Okay, thanks for that and thank you very much. Was a lorna for flag yet with us, Wendy, as always, thanks for all the hard work on behalf of our listeners, and we'll chaut again next week Wednesday. You can always reach out to Wendy on her website. Wendy Nola dot co doted on tomorrow's show, we'll find out about a new NGO dedicated to promoting the arts in South Africa. We'll spend some time in the garden with the team from Fakelerchen, and we'll bring you our quarterly pet care special.