Few people in the world can claim to have worked closely with the last four American presidents. Angela Merkel is one of them, the first woman to lead Germany. She worked with President George W. Bush on climate change shortly after she became chancellor in 2005. I thank you for your leadership on this issue, and I'm looking forward to working with our fellows. Thank you all. Is that what I said?
Great. Almost 100%. Almost 100%. Thank you all. Merkel called Barack Obama a friend, and the pair shared an unwavering commitment to the post-World War II global order. cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy for nearly 70 years, in good times and in bad, and through presidents of both parties, because the United States has a fundamental interest in Europe's stability and security. The commitment that Angle and I share to this guiding principle has formed the basis for our conversations.
This afternoon. Merkel's relationship with Donald Trump seemed to be anything but easy. It was captured in that iconic photo taken at the G7 summit in 2018. In it, a steely and resolute Merkel, surrounded by other world leaders, leans across a table. to stare down a defiant-looking Trump. CNN's Christiane Amanpour asked the chancellor about it almost a year later. I just wanted to show you this picture because that went viral around the world. We have a...
I think we have close cooperation, which simply results from problems we've had to resolve together. And this picture also shows that we are indeed grappling with an issue. Merkel stayed committed to the relationship with the US and went to work with Trump's successor. Joe Biden. The cooperation between the United States and Germany has been strong and we hope to continue that and I'm confident we will.
Of course, Germany's relationship with the United States was just one chapter of Merkel's years as chancellor. Consider this. Angela Merkel has gone toe-to-toe with world leaders like Vladimir Putin. She led Germany through times of turmoil and became a role model for other women aspiring to positions of leadership. But her legacy... is complex. She gets into all of this in her new memoir, Freedom. Coming up, my conversation with Angela Merkel.
And Mary Louise Kelly. This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University performs breakthrough research every year, making discoveries that improve human health, combat climate change, and move society forward. More at iu.edu forward. This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University performs breakthrough research every year, making discoveries that improve human health, combat climate change and move society forward.
Support for NPR comes from NPR member stations and Eric and Wendy Schmidt through the Schmidt Family Foundation. Working toward a healthy, resilient, secure world for all. On the web at theschmidt.org. It's Consider This from NPR. In her new memoir, Angela Merkel writes about the many dilemmas she had to navigate as chancellor of Germany. Dilemmas her male colleagues never had to sweat.
Like, can you wear a pantsuit instead of a skirt in the Bundestag, Germany's parliament? She decided the answer was yes. Merkel is the only woman ever to rise to the most powerful political post in Germany. She served as chancellor from 2005 to 2021. When she joined me from Berlin to talk about her memoir, Freedom, there were so many things we wanted to ask about her record on everything from the economy to energy to Europe's migrant crisis.
But we were given just 11 minutes, no edits, and so we focused on a few key things, U.S.-German relations, Vladimir Putin, and... Female leadership. But you describe a moment in 2017. You were on stage at the G20. You were asked, do you see yourself as a feminist? And you had to really think about it. Why?
Well, it was a sort of preparatory meeting for the G20 meeting in Germany, in Hamburg. And I was asked that question. I had to think about that for a moment because with classical feminism in Germany, I link... up something that means that there were real activists, female activists for women's rights. And I was not part of them. And I thought about that. And in this course of my political career, I got to the conviction that...
Equality, the participation of women is not something that comes about automatically and that therefore I have to stand up and I have stood up. and become active for women's quotas, for the promotion and development of women. And therefore, in my book, In My Way, I write now that I have been a feminist because I have always advocated equal participation.
of women and men in the world. So if I ask you today in 2024, do you see yourself as a feminist? What's the answer? Yes, in my way, I feel as a feminist, yes. One of the many male leaders you have wrangled with is Vladimir Putin. And I want to spend a little time on him and what you have learned from dealing with him. You are famously afraid of dogs. Putin knows this. Would you tell me what happened in Sochi in 2017?
Well, he knew about it. I already told him when I first saw him officially. Nevertheless, when I came to the official visit in 2006 in Moscow, he already gave me... a puppy dog as a gift. And in Sochi, I saw his real dog. A toy puppy dog, right? And it was a toy. And this was an attempt to really try. to sort of inspire fear into me in a certain way. But I tried not to let him know.
And not to let him sense it. And while I tried to go on business as usual, and we started our talk. You said you tried not to show fear. Did you feel fear? No, in that very moment I was not fearful. I was absolutely confident that President Putin... already knew that nothing aggressive could have happened, and therefore I didn't feel any fear. So with this as a backdrop for the way that you two have interacted, you write at length in the book about Russia.
about Ukraine. And I want to focus on one moment. 2014, little green men have appeared to occupy Crimea, the Ukrainian peninsula. And you write... Chancellor, that you confronted Putin on the phone, your word, that you confronted him, not that you called him, with your suspicion that these armed men wearing green uniforms were in fact Russian soldiers. And you say he replied with a bare-faced lie. What happened in that call?
Well, already when he called me up, I was fully aware that it was most likely that these were... military forces from Russia on Crimea. And that, of course, has changed my relations with Putin. We had controversies always. We had controversial talks and discussions always. But up until then, it was my feeling that he didn't.
didn't tell any lies. And this was a lie. And she admitted to that later on. And that has fundamentally changed our relationship because I always had to be very cautious, not knowing whether he was telling the truth or not. And that's what I describe in the book. And you write, and I'm quoting, the rule breaker was setting the terms he had to be stopped. I'll make the obvious point. That was 10 years ago. He hasn't stopped. He kept going. And here we are a decade later.
With the benefit of hindsight, should Germany, should NATO have done more? Of course, when writing the book, I have asked myself that very question and looking back, I think it was good and right to try everything. to find a peaceful solution to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, because we see the high number of victims now. That has not been successful. And I also write in the book that, from my perspective, the COVID pandemic has made it even more difficult.
find solutions to the problem, because over a very long period of time, we have not been able to get in touch personally. We only had contacts via telephone. With that war of aggression in February 2014, Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine, the world has fundamentally... changed in particular for us, the Europeans. And now...
We need to show military strength to respond to this. And in the midterm, of course, we also need to find ways to put an end to this war, but in a way that Ukraine remains a sovereign state. a state that can make its own choices and decisions. I guess the big picture question is, did you underestimate? Vladimir Putin? No, I don't think so. For that very reason, already in 2008 in Bucharest, when there was a NATO summit, I was opposed to accepting Ukraine too quickly.
In 2008, already we've seen that he attacked Georgia. And at the time, I believed that we should do everything that was possible to find peaceful solutions. But I have not underestimated him. I was full of concern. and worries that actually we would enter up in a strong conflict and in 2022, well, we found that this was true.
And here we are again. He ended up starting the biggest conflict in Europe since World War II. Tens of thousands of people have died. Nothing could have been done to stop it. Up until now, no one has found such a possibility, but I'm no longer actively involved in politics. I can only write about this and those who support Ukraine today.
We must work together with Ukraine to find solutions to put an end to this conflict. But I can no longer make any contribution because my active political time has come to an end. You also write about Donald Trump. about meeting him at the White House after he was elected president. This was 2017. And that you flew home from that meeting feeling uneasy. Why?
Donald Trump as president was a person who very strongly supported his ideas. That's natural. That's what every president of the United States of America does as every chancellor. But Donald Trump, less than others, believes in the capability or the quality of a compromise. He wants to be the sole winner.
any type of conflict and he does not believe in any win-win situation where both sides benefit from a solution. And that makes the collaboration more difficult and different than with other heads of government. He called into question NATO. as a collaborative security alliance. As you know, many people are wondering whether this moment, his reelection, signals the end of the post-World War II era of American leadership in the world. Does it? I hope that...
President-elect Trump, as he did in his first term of office, now also understands that NATO does not only serve the purpose of protecting Europe, of the US and Canada, but that the partnership with Europe is also a benefit for the United States of America, because together are we much stronger against those that do not want. our way of life, Russia, China.
It means that there are good reasons, even for the United States of America, to want NATO to be strong. What we have understood in Europe, and in particular in Germany, is that we need to do more for our defence. which we did not do sufficiently in the past. So is that a no to my question? This is not the end of US leadership on the world stage? I do not want to.
believe that this is the end of U.S. leadership. I don't believe it and I hope not. I want to bring us to an end circling back to where we began and questions about being a woman leader. Donald Trump is a man known to hurl insults at women. He uses misogynistic language. He has attacked Nancy Pelosi as evil, sick, and crazy. He called Kamala Harris low IQ and stupid. He talks about grabbing women by their genitals.
He's been held liable for sexual abuse. Did you ever since he underestimated you? Because you are a woman. No, I did not have that feeling. I think I was the personification of Germany for him. Partly he was a bit rough towards us regarding terrorists, regarding our economics. strength as a country. We talked about that frequently. But what you have just described is something that I cannot confirm. So last question, any...
Anything you would like Americans to hear directly from you as we grapple with a new chapter in our leadership here? I would wish that there are many citizens of the United States of America to protect the institutions. of the United States, the courts, the justice system, the free elections, that many people stand up for compromises for the fact that we can sort out disputes peacefully.
And it means of good discussions and that we get good solutions beyond political borders because that speechlessness, the capability not to speak anymore and to insult each other. I think this is a step backwards in civilization. think that many people should stand up against that and put science up against that. Angela Merkel, she led Germany as chancellor from 2005 to 2021. Her new memoir out today is titled Freedom. Chancellor Merkel, thank you. Danke schön. Thank you very much.
This episode was produced by Erica Ryan and Esme Nicholson with audio engineering by Andy Huther. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. This message comes from NPR sponsor, the UK government. It's time to make your UK visa digital. If you have a BRP card that expires on the 31st of December, 2024, or a stamp or vignette sticker in your passport, you should change to an e-visa now.
This means it will never be lost and can be accessed online at any time to prove your right to live, work or study in the UK. It's free and your immigration status won't be affected. Find out more now at gov.uk forward slash e-visa. Hey fam, Scott Simon here. I'm in my fundraising era. Had a little help from Gen Z on this script.
NPR is always cooking, no cap. So when I say Giving Tuesday is coming, I think you understand the assignment. Please donate today. Make your gift at donate.npr.org. Thanks, Bestie.