How Desire Actually Works

You're all set. Everything you need now is just knowing how to get from wanting your partner to a context where sexy times seems like the best idea you could be having right now. And I have some science that will help with that. I'm Emmilinagaski and this is the Come as you Are podcast where our I answer questions about sex with science. In this episode, I'm going to explain another mind blowing fundamental lesson in the science of sex desire. What even is it? How does it actually work?

Why does it sometimes change? And why does it sometimes feel like we lose touch with it? It turns out the narrative we've been sold from TV and movies where two people are suddenly struck with a spontaneous and simultaneous desire for sex out of the blue. It doesn't usually work that way, particularly in a long term relationships. I mean, yes, it absolutely is one of the normal, healthy ways to

sperience sexual desire. But there is another very common way to experience desire that we don't usually see in the media. It's called responsive desire. And when I describe how it works in relationships, it might sound really familiar. Let's get into the science of how and when we feel sexual desire and when we don't. I'm answering a listener question today and as always bringing me today's listener question is my producer, mo Hi, mo Hey, Emily. How are you doing?

How's it going? I'm doing great? How are you you know? I'm doing all right. How are you feeling now that the show is out in the world where a few episodes in? How does it feel? You know? It's when you write a book, like you spend all this time by yourself with your editor, just like writing a book, and then it's out there and people can read it, and that's sort of it. But with a podcast. You put it out there and people can respond, and then you make some more podcasts and people can respond. So

it's a dynamic and I'm enjoying that. Yeah, it's like more of a conversation with the listeners. Yeah, it reminds me of when I wrote a blog. I often say we're like in the blog spot era of podcasting, like we're in such a wild West era that it feels like we're in blog spotting. Yeah. Well, so I chose today's question because we've gotten a lot of questions like this one, and basically I'm calling it that I want to want it question, Like, ah, I wish that I

had more desire for my partner. I really love being in the relationship. I'm happy with them. I want to be with them long term, but right I just don't want it like I used to. And that is a question that I have seen come up again and again

in the listener mailbox. So I wanted to get your take on this one, like really early on in this series, because whether someone's experiencing it right now or not, it is the kind of question that I think a lot of us who are in long term sexual romantic relationships will encounter yes, any relationship that lasts long enough, you're going to experience this. Okay, So are you ready to hear the full question? Yes, Hi, Emily. My name is Taylor. I use they then pronouns, and I have a question

about sex, drive or libido. So I have this incredible, beautiful girlfriend, and when we first met, we had this extreme sexual attraction. We wanted to have sex all the time. We couldn't keep our hands off each other. But since we moved in together this year, I'm just wanting sex less. I don't know what it is. I know my feelings for her haven't changed. I still feel attracted to her, so that's not the problem. Maybe it's that I'm stressed out about money and my job, but I still want

to want it. It's not that I don't want her. I do intellectually, but I don't know if I'm just having trouble getting mysel excited about sex and my partner wants to have it and it's making both of us sad. So I don't know what's wrong with me? Is there something I can do about it? Thanks? Oh, Taylor, there's nothing wrong with you, and yes there is things you

can do about it. This is a perfect question. Honestly, the book I'm working on right now about sex and long term relationships was born out of me having the same experience. Really, yeah, you're this is very much on the top of your mind. Absolutely. I think about it all the time, and I have done a lot of work to understand what people can do when they find themselves in this situation in order to make their sex lives still just as delightful as when they were super

hot and heavy horny for each other. So in our second episode, Emily, you talked about the science of horniness, and you talked about the dual control model, which is like the one oh one of how sexual response works. We have the breaks and the accelerator and those all come together in a unique way inside all of us to form our sexual response. But today we're talking about the experience of desire. Can you talk about the difference between horniness and desire? Like, why do you think of

these as separate categories and what's the difference? Well, ultimately, any question about sexual response is a question about the dual control model. But when researchers and therapists study and talk about sexual response, they break it down into four pieces. One is the arousal piece, which is the activation of your brain's accelerator and the deactivation of the breaks, which in turn results in the activation of the body. Right,

that's the arousal process. There's orgasm, which is the specific experience of releasing all the tension in your body that's been generated by that arousal. There's pleasure, which is the foundation of everything. It's your brain's interpretation of your body sensations as positive. Right. So tickling the one we talk about all the time. Pleasure is when tickling feels good versus if someone tickles you and it doesn't feel good. It's the same sensation, but it doesn't feel good because

the context is different. That's the science of the pleasure part. And then there's desire. So where pleasure is about liking a sensation, desire is about wanting those sensations. So all four pieces arousal, orgasm, pleasure, desire, these are all parts of the sexual response. And you know what the one people worry about the most desire. It is the number one reason why couples seek sex therapy is for a desire differential or a change in desire. Interesting, So, what

science do we need to understand about desire. To answer Taylor's question, Okay, so the story we are usually told about desire, The way I thought desire worked until I got to grad school is that it just arrives out of the blue, spontaneous. Here walking down the street, and suddenly you just are interested in sex, or you're thinking about sex and you would like to have some sex, and you go home to your partner and you really hope that your partner also is interested in some sex.

Right now, that's spontaneous desire. It is absolutely one of the normal, healthy ways to experience desire. And there is another normal, healthy way to experience desire. It's called responsive desire. Where that spontaneous desire emerges in anticipation of the pleasure of sex. Responsive desire emerges in response to the pleasure of sex. So instead of it being just like, out of the blue, woo, I would like sex now, it's that you show up regardless of how you feel in

the moment. There's a quick analogy that I learned from a sex therapist named Christine Hyde. She talking to her clients, says, if you imagine your best friend invite you to a party, of course you say yes because it's your best friend and a party. But you know, as that data approaches, you start going, I don't know how to find childcare. Traffic is going to be heavy. I'm not really going to want to put on my party clothes at the

end of a long week. But you know what you said you would go, So you put on your party clothes, you drive through the traffic, and you show up to the party. And what happens then a lot of the time you have fun at the party right, And if you are having fun at the party, you are doing it right. That's responsive desire and it's normal, and that is the way a lot of couples and long term

relationships structure their whole sex lives. Most of the time, you were not doing it wrong if that's how you're doing it, as long as you like what is happening. And the caveat here is that if you show up to the party and it is not fun, there is no amount of looking forward to that party that's going to make that party worth going to. That makes a lot of sense. Also been to that party metaphorically and literally.

And can you just describe how is responsive desire working in the brain, Like what is going on in the brain during responsive and spontaneous desire. Yeah, so the cool thing is the same thing is happening fundamentally in both spontaneous and responsive desire. There's very little difference. So your breaks are noticing all the good reasons not to be turned on, and they're staying on, or else they're turning

off because those reasons are going away. And your accelerator is noticing all the sex related stimuli in the environment and is either sending a turn on signal or not. And as your context changes, the amount of stimulation to those brain functions changes, and at a certain point, the balance of accelerator being hit and breaks releasing crosses a threshold into your awareness of being motivated to pursue sex.

Huh does that make sense. It's a simple sort of like addition subtraction problem, like turn on more of the ons, turn off more of the offs, and eventually you get to a point when you're like, oh, would be very interested in having sex. The only difference between spontaneous versus responsive desire is the point at which you get there is a lower level of stimulation for spontaneous desire. You're interested in sex before you're aware of being aroused and

before you're actually in a sexy scenario. Whereas responsive desire it takes more explicit stimulation, more explicit arousal, before you have that awareness of like, oh oh yes, please this m okay. Maybe I'm like slow just to get this concept. But I need to stop for a clarification about responsive desire, because every time you're talking about it responsive desire starting

in response to pleasure. I basically imagine that somebody doesn't have any desire until they actually start having sex, and then they're like, oh now I want it. Now I'm feeling into it, like now that I'm being literally genitally stimulated, now I'm feeling desire, Like that's what I hear sometimes when you're describing responsive desire. But I feel like that can't be right. Okay, yeah, no, it can't be right.

And it's so important that you asked that question. I'm sorry, and okay, I'm going to tell you a story about a couple that I spoke with. Both of them had PhDs. Both of them had read the book. They understood everything that I had written. Unfortunately, Okay, so it's the pandemic. They have a young child, married husband and wife two sis gender heterosexual people. And she puts the child to bed.

She comes and sits down next to him on the couch and they're gonna watch something they have both read, Come as you are. He has read about responsive desire. And he literally puts his hand down her pants. Oh, when she has just finished a long day and put their child to bed, He's like right to the clit. And she's like, no, no, thank you, I don't want this right now. And he says, he says, oh gosh, he says, but you will. Oh no, okay, right, See

that is my concern. Yeah. I was mortified when I heard the story, and I clarified, like, pleasure first, not just stimulation. Pleasure first. The advice is not to just like go do it. It's to create a context where it is easy for your brain to interpret these sensations as pleasurable. Create a context that makes pleasure easy, right right. So my problem in understanding this is that my definition of pleasure is so narrow that it's like clatoral stimulation.

But actually I need to like build out the whole world of what could be pleasurable, including just like a good conversation, etc. Yeah. No, I will never give the advice to just do it. The advice is to create a context that makes pleasure easy. Yeah. Context, Context is one of your favorite things to talk about. I'm learning and I feel like so much of good sex is

about setting the right context. Okay, I want to take a break, and when we get back, I want to talk about how Taylor and all of us can make contexts in our lives that make pleasure easy. So, Emily, we are talking today about a I want to want my partner question about a desire differential between a couple that seems to be really happy, really in love, they want to be together for a long time, but they're

experiencing a change in the frequency of their sex. Yeah, where Taylor, who called into the hotline, is not feeling that super out of the blue, spontaneous desire like they used to when they first started dating their girlfriend. So I know this question is one that you get maybe more than any other as a sex educator. And because of that, I followed up with Taylor and I talk to them about what contexts get them in the mood.

I was asking, what do you and your partner do that does make you feel really good and comfortable and is pleasurable, not necessarily sexually, And they said they really liked laying in bed together with their girlfriend and just like talking about their day and getting words of affirmation like I'm really proud of you. I think you're doing great, I am so happy to be with you. You're a great partner. Like they almost feel like they need that

before they can get turned on. There's another sex therapist named Petro Zebroff who studies initiation styles essentially, and it sounds like Taylor is a sentimental, emotional style. They want to feel that sense of connection with the partner, being really present and listening to each other with your hearts and affirming your pleasure in being in the relationship. That's not everyone's style, but that absolutely is one of the

styles that people prefer in sexual initiation. You're telling me, you know how there's like love languages, there's like an initiation style of like you're one of these four styles. That's a real thing. Yeah, So the research has been evolving over the years. I actually included it in the Come as you Are workbook when it was seven styles, but in the following years it has simplified down to four different styles. I'm sure we can put the questionnaire

into the show notes. It's the questionnaire for turn on initiation preference or q TIP, which is just as adorable as it could possibly be. And that sentimental emotional style is one of them. Another is sensation style, where this person might want you to just go for the genitals, or they might want to be touched somewhere else a shoulder rub or an embrace or a kiss. We're experiencing that physical sensation is the way to open the door

for them. It's actually really promising news to hear that Taylor might be in that sentimental emotional style, because those folks transition really well to embracing responsive desire, creating a context that makes pleasure easy, recognizing that there is this intermediate step between not having sex and having sex. One of the places people get stuck with normalizing, accepting, embracing responsive desire in their lives is that they feel like, oh,

but it should be easy. I shouldn't have to put in all this work. There shouldn't be like a transition period. I shouldn't have to work so hard for it, you know. But if you think about what was happening in a dating relationship, like don't you spend time planning and transitioning into that sexy state of mind. Don't you spend time grooming your body to get ready. Don't you spend time planning the date and fantasizing about it and imagining what's

going to happen. Don't you spend time texting each other back and forth all kinds of things all day about how much you're looking forward to things. It's really not more work to understand the things that come before the sex right in order to create a context that makes the sex worth wanting. So I know people love black

and white thinking about identity categories. So I think when people hear you talking about responsive and spontaneous desire and saying, oh, I'm a responsive desire person, my partner is a spontaneous desire person, and sort of putting themselves in that box and treating their relationship like they are a responsive desire person. Does it work like that for some people? It is? And oh do people love to be in a category.

And it is the case that there are some people who experience exclusively responsive desire in their lives and people who experience exclusively spontaneous desire in their lives, But most of us it's not about a trade that's stable like introversion extraversion. That is actually a trait that's pretty stable across your lifetime, right, But desire style isn't like that. It is very responsive to context. So there will be

some contexts. For example, in the early hot and heavy, fallen in love stage of a relationship, you're in the kitchen cooking dinner and your partner comes over and kisses you in some certain special place, and your knees melt and you let dinner burn because all it took was

that to get you going. Ten years later and maybe some kids, you're in the same kitchen cooking the same meal, and the same partner comes in and kisses you in the same certain special way, and your response is not knees melting, let dinner burn, It is could you please go set the table? Nothing is wrong there, nobody got broken, it's just the context is different. So you're saying, like, the same people that experience spontaneous desire in the past

could experience sponsive desire nail. And it doesn't mean that they have gotten worse at connecting or worse at having sex, or that their sexual connection has degraded in some way. Yeah, No, it's just that the contact and when I say context, I'm talking both about your external circumstances and your internal state.

Like when you're in that like early new relationship energy situation, your brain's emotional systems are firing on all cylinders and the sparks of that, it's easy for them to catch over into sexuality and make it easy to experience what feels like spontaneous desire for sex when you've been in a relationship for a long time. It is normal that that like huge fire burns down to a smolder and it takes a little stoking of the fire to let

it burst into flame. There's nothing wrong with that. Yes, And on that note, I would love to get to some specific practical tips for Taylor. I want to break down Taylor's question further and make sure that when they hear this episode they're satisfied with like real take home assignments that they can YEA, they know what to do. Yes, they know what to do, and it's not just like

a theoretical change. I think we've already talked about the great framework of responsive desire and also initiation styles, which I think is so interesting and seems like they're an emotional, sentimental initiation style person. So let's break down some specific parts of the question that we heard, and I want to just play it again for you so we can talk about these specifics. When we first met, we had this extreme sexual attraction. We wanted to have sex all

the time. We couldn't keep our hands off each other. But since we moved in together this year, I'm just wanting sex less. I don't know what it is. I know my feelings for her haven't changed. I still feel attracted to her, so that's not the problem. Maybe it's that I'm stressed out about any and my job, but I still want to want it. It's not that I don't want her. I do intellectually. So the first thing that has changed in the context is that Taylor is

feeling critical of their own sexual desire. There are also a couple of other explicit context changes that we know could potentially be changing the response of the accelerator. In the breaks, there's a stress about money and jobs. Do we think that could possibly be hitting the brakes? Yeah? Yeah, right, So stress is a physiological response. Is not like just stress, it's like an idea. It's a physical response that happens

in your body. The fight or flight response is there to help us survive something like being chased by a lion, and for a lot of us, eighty to ninety percent of people, stress can really hit the brakes because if you're being chased by a lion, is that a good time to decide to have sex? Not so much? Right right. A second thing that changed is that they moved in together. Relationship transitions are significant and have a lot of meaning. So now their relationship is happening in a context where

they're sharing householding responsibilities. Maybe it does not enhance their sense of erotic connection with their partner to need their partner to clean the toilet because it's their turn, or whose job is it to take out the recycling this week? Those kinds of negotiations may not necessarily enhance spontaneous desire

for someone. This makes so much sense because when I was following up with Taylor, they said, you know, in my early relationship, we would text, you know, we basically had a hook up relationship, and I would text her and be like, do you want to meet up later? You know winky face, and she would be like yes, And as soon as they saw each other, like Taylor would go over to her apartment and as soon as they saw each other, it was like hot and heavy.

And then as they have gotten to be more of a partnered couple and like doing life together and moving in together, there's less of that every time I see you, we're going to have sex energy, and it's more of like we gotta take care of the car today and we have to bring the dog todaycare except somebody has

to do the dishes. Yeah, the context changed. The context changed, okay, And it is so easy because we have all been trained to think that spontaneous desire is the normal, good desire, and we like it because it's fun and it's easy. We think that it is the right way. When you ask where did that go? Under that like where did that go? Is like why am I broken? Now? And

no one is broken. Nothing is wrong. This is just a different context, and these individual's brains happen to be wired in a way such that when they're living together, the desire shifts into a more responsive style where it takes intentional effort to create the hot and heavy fallen in love. You had also mentioned self criticism. Yes, and I had noticed that when I was first hearing their question,

what do you mean by that? Yeah, they end the question with I don't know what's wrong with me, and I just want to like a hug tailor and be like, there's nothing wrong with you. You are totally fine. But self criticism that like worry that you might be broken. Is that going to activate the accelerator or is that self critical thought gonna hit the brakes. It's like you're being chased by the lion, but the lion is your own thoughts. Oh God Jesus, that's not going to make

it easier to want and like the sex. It's available to you, right right, So it is normal that your experience of desire has changed, and then you focus on pleasure. Do I like the sex that I am having the sex it's available to me? Do I know what the transition is like to get me out of my stressed, mundane state of mind into a sexy state of mind? Can I talk with my partner about the context that

help with that transition for her? When you've got those kinds of conversations happening, you are opening up the door to the kind of erotic connection that just is not accessible with simple spontaneous out of the blue desire because you're collaborating to create something entirely individual and unique, which can carry you to places in your body and your emotions that you can't get from quick can't wait to fuck you. I love the idea of collaborating to create

sex as a creative person. That makes me like, almost emotional about the idea of collaborating. Oh good, because I sometimes people are like, it's a whole lot of work, and I'm like, it's a hobby. It's something you do because you enjoy it. After the break, I'm going to give you a little spoiler, Emily blows my mind with a theory about why we are so obsessed with sexual desire, and she offers kind of an alternative for what we can focus on instead that might lead to better sex.

All right, we're back. We're doing this thing. So Emily, I love that you're like breaking down all these potential things hitting the brakes in Taylor's question and maybe things getting in the way of them experiencing desire at all. But obviously, if you're in a stress about money or health or something like that, that's not just something that can just go away. So how do you deal with that? With that's just the state of your life right now.

So the first simple solution is whatever else is happening in your life when you put your body in the bed with your partner, do you like it? If yes, you're all ready most of the way there. Now, there's other things that are less controllable, like the money part. Like if we could just have their business already be a massive success and they sell it and are a

billionaire and they never have to worry about money ever. Again. Cool, But the reality is that most of us are going to stay stressed most of the time, and there are things you can do to reduce the stress even when your life stress or is still present. I know most of us are taught that the way to deal with the stress in your body is to deal with the stress or in the outside. That's not true. See chapter

one of Burnout for that. But it is possible to process the stress and calm the central nervous system so that the body feels nice and relaxed and that stress is not hitting the brakes, which frees up the accelerator to do its job. Why do you think society values spontaneous desire so much more than responsive desire, like why

has response, the experience of responsive desire been just erased. Yeah, there's not a scientific answer that I can give you, but my opinion is obviously it's the patriarchy a little bit, which so that's for sure a part of it. Yeah, But I think there's another level. I think we live in a culture that says that wanting sex is good as long as you don't want it too much, of course, and not wanting sex is bad, and it means you're

a failure if you're not constantly ready for it. Like wop was a super hit and a great song, Yeah, but would people be as into a song that's just as much of a bop? Or what is it the kids saying about a good song? It's just as good as song, but the lyrics are like I am too damn tired, and that's okay, too right. I love that women can be confident about their sexuality, but I want a world where we can be just as confident about our sexuality when it does not conform to the dominant narratives.

I think you're talking about a top a tired ass pussy, yeah, or a mop a menopausal ass pussy. Beautiful. But also I think it's capitalism. Right. We're encouraged to want things, to want all kinds of things, to want that new toy, to want the new brand, extension flavor of orioles. Right, we just you're supposed to want things. And if we pause in our wanting to enjoy, well, we have to experience pleasure, then we stop striving to get new stuff. And how can we take pleasure in what we already

have in this economy? Get out there and want something you don't have. I think, just think how bizarre this is. We seem to define our sexual well being in terms of desire, right, in terms of how dissatisfied we are with the amount of sex we're having right now, right, because wanting is wanting something you don't have and maybe trying to get that thing, whereas liking sex is about

liking what you have and enjoying that. And if we put pleasure instead of desire at the center of our definition of sexual well being, all the other pieces fall into place. We stop being dissatisfied and begin to enjoy the sex we are having. Holy shit, So you're basically

saying our entire society, okay, let's blow my mind. Our entire society is set up to prioritize wanting over liking, because wanting is a functional capitalism, And so we're doing all this, We're putting all this priority on wanting stuff instead of liking what we already have. And that also has impacted our sex how we think about sex and desire. I think so. I can't prove it, but I think so. That's a really hot take, Emily Nagowski. I like that

a lot. All right, Emily, let's end with a TLDR. Yeah, let's do the recap. First of all, spontaneous desire emerges in anticipation of pleasure. Responsive desire emerges in response to pleasure. Both of these are normal, and most people experience both at different times in their lives. Neither is better than the other, but one is more reliably associated with a satisfying sex life in a long term relationship. Which desire style is more associated with a satisfying sex life and

a long term relationship? Responsive desire is the one second thing to know. Judging your experience of responsive desire as inferior or a lot of work instead of normal and a fun hobby is a great way to hit the brakes. Judging responsive desire can even make it more difficult to want or like the sext you might otherwise be having.

Whereas when you embrace responsive desire, you create an opportunity to enjoy the experience of creating a context that makes it easy to feel pleasure, and from pleasure, desire will follow. Three create that context, whether you put your body in the bed and let your skin touch your partner's skin, or you have that deeply connected conversation, or you put on your most enticing underpants and serve dinner that way. There is no right or wrong way to create a context.

There's only pleasure with everyone's consent. And finally, for when you put pleasure at the center of your definition of sexual well being, desire will follow every time. Next week we are going to talk about, drum roll please, orgasms. Hmm. If this was Cosmo magazine, it would be the big O issue, the big oh show, Baby, We're doing it, okay. People love a conversation about orgasm. People love a science fact. Oh the science facts you have about orgasms. Emily, I'm

gonna say one thing about the orgasm episodes. I always thought that there were different kinds of orgasms because some of them feel different, like you know, the internal vaginal orgasm, the clatoral orgasm, the ascasm, etc. But I learned in the next episode that there is only one kind of work as m Yeah. Come As You Are is a production of Pushkin Industries and Madison Wells. It's hosted by Emily Nagowski. You can find Emily on Instagram at e

Nagowski and on Twitter at Emily Nagowski. You can also sign up for her newsletter at Emily Nagowski dot com, where she writes about everything from the clitteriest in your mind to orgasm after having hysterectomy. It's an incredible newsletter. Highly recommended. This show is co hosted and lead produced by me Mola Board. You can find me online at Mola Board and on TikTok at podcast dot slut, Sorry mom My. Co producer on this show is the fabulous

Brittany Brown. Our editor is Kate Parkinson Morgan. Sound design and mix by Anne Pope. Executive producers are Mia LaBelle and Lee taal Mallad at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, Sophie Crane, Courtney Guarino, Jason Gambrel Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob Weisberg at Madison Wells. Thanks to Kylie Williams, Elizabeth Goodstein and Gg Pritzker. Additional thanks to Rich Stevens, Lindsay Edgecombe, Frolick Media, and Peter Acker at

Armadillo Audio Group. Original music for this series was composed by Ameliagosky and arranged and recorded by Alexandra Kalinovsky. Additional music from Epidemic Sound. You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. If you love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to

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dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. Make sure you subscribe so you can get the next episode and learn about how a schasm isn't its own kind of orgasm? How is that? Emily? Do you like that? That was fully unnecessary and I'm here for it.