I'm Uriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease.
I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Denise to protect her confidentiality. She spent much of her career in project-oriented roles and a few years ago made the move to an organization where she's increasingly gaining more leadership responsibility. In the past year, I've had a lot of...
of growth opportunities. I came in as an individual contributor, but especially in the past year, I've been giving more leadership responsibilities. and management and being able to showcase the work that we do to our executive teams, our board, our stakeholders. I'm still an individual contributor on the org chart, but unofficially I've been.
given more management, the kind of visionary leadership responsibilities and the communication being that face and that creator to kind of guide the direction of my team. and gotten really great feedback from that. Denise feels like she's on the way up the ladder, but there's a bit of a cap. the culture of her organization.
You know, I've come to see and be outright told that to be seen as a leader here you need to be personally close to top leadership, preferably with decades of personal relationships with them, which I do not have. You know, this kind of history of hiring and promoting friends based on personal relationships has evolved somewhat, but it's still, how do I thrive as an outsider in a more insular, insider environment?
where relationships are often valued higher than experience or technical skill sets. So much about career advancement is not just about being able to do the job, but also building the right relationship. a ceiling that Denise is bumping right up against. So to start the coaching session, we zeroed in on what she means by thrive. How is she defining growth in her career as it stands today? I think to be recognized for leadership.
responsibilities and work that I do. I think in an environment where leaders are often chosen, you know, like years and years in advance to come in and to be doing the work. Often feels like it's a uphill battle, you know, of like. I'm an outsider and an insider in environment. You know, I do question, you know, am I reading too much into this? Or just being more aware of those kind of senses of equity and belonging.
Am I not being seen as a leader because I've only been here for a short time compared to those around me? figure out how I can be seen more as a leader for the work that I'm putting in and showing up to do. Yeah. I mean, I hear two questions there. One is, why am I not being seen as a leader? And then the second question being, how do I get seen as a leader? Yeah. Well, let me ask you, what do you think the commonality is between those two questions?
I think maybe the sense that I'm like, oh, I'm not being seen as a as a leader and, you know, starting from there. And how can I work on that? How can I build on that skill set? Yeah. And so there's a assumption that I'm picking up that you're not seen as a leader. The only way those two questions are valid is if indeed you're not seen as a leader. And so I would like to understand where is that assumption coming from? What evidence do you have of that assumption?
Hearing it conversationally that... You know, another person was chosen as the next leader, let's say, of a team that I'm working with or my team, you know, years ago, even before I got there. So hearing the comments like that, and just seeing how people kind of grow and move in the company, I am making assumptions, but it does seem that, you know.
seeing some of the inequities of how people are given opportunities in the company. And it seems like a lot of it is based on some personal relationships. Okay. So, and by no way am I, by raising this assumption, saying it doesn't mean it's not true, right? I'm just saying
Let's make sure the assumption is right because it's what we're operating on, right? It's just like if I put in the wrong assumption into a budget model, I'm going to get very different results than if I put in a different assumption. So you're basing it on what you've seen in terms of who has been chosen. for particular roles. Is that right?
That's a part of it. Yeah, that's a part of it. So tell me what the other parts of it are. I think it's, you know, what started as a smaller organization over the past several decades has seen.
growth and has matured to a part where some of the founding members are retiring or moving on to other things. I think Where I'm at is in this organization that's at this transitional moment of hiring more people and kind of bringing in more folks like myself, you know, that are maybe more outsider, you know, I say in quotes. But I think it's at this moment of not just being such an insular organization.
So I feel fortunate and committed and really passionate about the team that I'm on and the organization that I'm in and the role that I'm in. you know, I really want to kind of work on, you know, coming in from like a technical contributor and how can I build on some of the communication and some of the other kind of skill sets.
you know, to kind of round out that that leadership potential to hopefully be seen as that. But, you know, when do you be patient with those kind of things? And when do you kind of put yourself out there a little bit more? Or you said, you know, like. what is growth and thriving means. And I think it's just kind of being valued and... seen and recognized for the kind of leadership work that I'm doing, but not formally recognized for it at the moment.
Okay. So help me understand, because I do think it's important that we sort of have a measure of success here. If a year from now I were to talk to you and I say, hey, do you feel recognized now? Right. And your answer was an enthusiastic yes, I do. What would need to be true for that to be true? Maybe moving into more of a official or changing the description of my role or, you know, the scope of responsibilities to accurate reflect.
some of the additional opportunities and leadership responsibilities that I've been Okay. So for your role, the scope of the role to reflect what you've been doing. And I just want you to put it all out there. You're just talking to me. I have no... bearing on all this like is it also title is it compensation is it a promotion or is it really just look i just want the role the scope of the role to match
what I'm doing. You know, it's like my kids put together their holiday list, right? Like, I tell them, be specific, or else I'm just gonna go with what I think is right. So I want you to be specific. What would be your wish list here? Definitely, you know, I think it's important that, you know, title and conversation matches the scope of.
the job, you know, so that you feel valued for the level of work that you're putting in. So I think that's a part of it. But it's really, I think, about the role and being recognized on my team. I think I'm already being recognized, you know, with executive leadership and being able to be seen as a leader in my department. But I think just a more formal recognition of that. So a job description.
Title is less important to me, but... I want to kind of go back a little bit to what you shared before, which is the question is, how can I be seen as a leader? But then when I asked you for evidence, you talked about who's been chosen. And so is the question, is it about you being seen or is it about you being chosen? Because those are two different things.
That's a good point. And sometimes I feel like, you know, seeing when, you know, years in advance people have been chosen, I feel like, well, I should have gotten in line 20 years ago, you know, or it just. highlights what I can be seen as a weakness, that I'm fairly new in an organization that really values tenure and longevity, that that seems like something that's not something I can... automatically build on or, you know, I can't go back in time and be here 20 years ago.
So from this moment going forward, what can I do? I guess to be seen, I think more. I mean, certainly there, you know, I want to be able to showcase the work that my team does. steer that vision. And I feel like I'm showing up for that work and leading on those responsibilities. And so just to be able to be seen for that work. led you to be invited at the table, to take on the increased responsibilities, to interface with the board, to get on the balcony, as you stated before.
What has led to being invited to do that if you had not been seen? I'm not sure, you know, I show up and dig into the work, you know, using technical skills and building trust with my team. of that vision of being able to Take like company direction and priorities and goals and be able to filter it down. to lead the team with like, okay, what are our pathways? What are our processes? What are our plans, you know, to kind of map out our team-wide goals?
And then be able to communicate that upward and outward of being a face and that voice of the team. I think because I'm able to speak to some of the more technical side of as we're embracing. more systems that I think originally it was like, well, I can speak to the system so I can be that voice of advocating and showing the future vision of how we're going to.
to use them and then i think that translated into i got really good feedback of like oh wow you're really good at communicating and putting together a vision and a deck and collaborating with everyone and on the team and kind of workshopping of that, those kind of presentation skills. And that's something that I've wanted to work on too, of knowing that of leaders and managers that I've respected in the past.
really great communicators. So I took that opportunity to work on maybe a part of my working experience that I hadn't had as much experience. And I think that just kind of snowballed into being able to communicate that vision that's kind of spread to other responsibilities within the team and being able to communicate that outward as well. And so how did that happen without you being seen, though? It's like if I said, they didn't see me, so they didn't invite me to the dinner party.
And yet I'm here at the dinner party. And I did get the invitation. So... How was I not seen? I think I just showed up to the dinner party. So you invited yourself to do all those things? Nobody asked you to do them? No, I think I put myself forward of like, you know, this is something that I'd love to take a stab at or, you know, this is something from a professional development that I want to work on and I'd love to be able to do that.
you know, kind of led in the door that way. Got it. And then once you were in the door, nobody kicked you out. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Listen, Denise, I think you're being seen. Now, are you being seen in the way that you would like, which is with the formalization of it, or are you being chosen to fit You know, the category that you'd like to be in, which is maybe it's a more formalized role. That's a different. But in terms of the value that you're bringing.
to these different situations, whether it's the board or the leadership conversations. You made the ask to be a part of it. Somebody said yes. In order for them to say yes, they have to see you. I can't invite anybody inside my house or I can't tell somebody to come inside my house if I don't see them.
You've ever had that experience? Well, maybe it doesn't happen that much these days. But, you know, people knock on the door and then run away. And you're like, I don't see them. I don't see them. Where are they? That's not what's happening here. I'm opening the door. You knock. I open the door and I see you and I tell you, come in. Okay, so you are seen. I think the question is more about why is that not translating into some formalization?
If that's even a word of the value that you bring. Maybe I have to be patient, you know, with that. But I mean, I don't know. We haven't explored that yet. But I think it's important to make the distinction because. Not being seen is really nobody is seeing the value that I bring. Then it's like, OK, is that value being translated into something tangible? Right. They're tied together, but they're two different stuff.
Okay. Before we move on, I want to ask, like, how much do you see yourself as the leader that you want other people to see you as? I think I've tried to be realistic of coming into a more insular environment. of, okay, there's a lot of institutional knowledge here, which is great. and sought out mentors to really learn from that and understand maybe the context.
I've seen people come in in past roles in, you know, other organizations that I've been in that come in like hot and want to change everything, you know, from the outside. And I think I've come in maybe more realistic of understanding like, OK. This is a more insular organization, sometimes resistant to change. How can I understand the history and the context? by seeking out mentors that have more tenure there to kind of build on my knowledge base.
If I am given that or earn that or get to a place of more leadership. you know, responsibilities that I'm not coming in hot to kind of make broad sweeping changes, you know, as a newcomer to be disruptive. So I think I've tried to be more observant. in the time that I've been here and learn and try to speak to what I can based on, you know, technical background and my outside experience and how I can add value to that.
And I think maybe change comes more slowly in the working environment that I'm in. Okay, understood. And I appreciate the fact that you said, look, you don't have as long as a tenure. as some of these other individuals who've been there. And we can't change that. Right. There's nothing that is within our control where we could accelerate the time so that and then make everybody else stop, you know.
We're not in a vortex. This isn't wrinkle in time where I could make everyone else slow down and you speed up and all of a sudden you guys have the same tenure. Not happening. And there's a reframing for me around what would make you feel like you were an insider. in spite of not having as long a tenure as everyone else. I think it's just this sense of this uphill battle. I can only...
Listen to others' experiences of what happened decades ago and take that in and learn from that and try to incorporate that context into what I am speaking to. So I don't know what would make me feel like an insider. Is that just something that builds with years of tenure? I'm not sure. I certainly feel like an outsider, you know, and I've definitely been.
referred to as such. And in what ways have you been referred to as such? Just being an unfamiliar face to the to the working environment. And, you know, it sometimes feels like a pretty tight knit. local community here in the workplace. And having people with tenure at an organization, there's a lot to learn from that. But sometimes it can feel alienating to someone coming in from the outside, not being extended that kind of sense of belonging or, you know, that invitation in that type of way.
I've got some big news to share. I've got a new book coming out. Leadership Unblocked is launching this October with HBR Press, and I can't wait for you to read it. It's filled with insights from my years of coaching executives and a roadmap. to help you break free from the mindsets that hold you back from being the leader you want to be. You can preorder it now. Just search for Leadership Unblocked wherever you order your favorite books and you'll be among the first to receive a copy.
At the start of any coaching conversation, It's important to level set. Someone might come in with a clearly articulated problem, but I need to dig a bit deeper and understand their line of reasoning before we can really figure out what challenge to tackle and how. In Denise's case, she wanted to be seen as a leader at her organization, but believed that she wasn't being seen because of a company's culture around long tenure and relationship building.
Now, reality of the work culture aside, I wanted to get a better sense of the assumptions Denise was making. Was she really not being seen? And what evidence did she have? Not because I didn't believe her. It actually doesn't matter what I believe when I coach someone. but more for her to get clear on what her pain point is. Once we were able to parse through whether or not she was being seen as a leader, we could then circle back to the questions around belonging.
It's time to break that problem down a bit. How much is in your control around cultivating a sense of belonging at this organization? I think I've made peace that, of course, I can't be here in the past. And all I can really control is the work that I... show up to do and kind of that consistency of showing up and digging into the work and using my skills and building trust with my team.
to be able to kind of help guide us where we're going in the future, you know, that I can learn from the past and respect and honor that, but really try to keep the focused on going forward. And what is your measure of belonging? What is it based on? Or feeling like you're on the inside? What is that based on?
I don't know, maybe there's some of my own bias coming into that. But I think, you know, just kind of looking to your left, looking to your right and seeing, you know, a much different picture of... People who have been there for a really long time compared to, you know, someone coming in. Yeah. Newer in the grand scheme of things. But, you know.
I think I just try to focus on focus on the work. Yeah. So you focus on the work. OK. And I understand what your strategy has been. I'm just trying to get a sense of like what drives the sense of belonging for you. Right. Because. What I'm hearing from you is you look to the left, you look to the right, and you see differences in terms of, let's just name one, tenure. And based on those differences... It makes you feel what? Maybe still on the outside?
But are you technically on the outside? Well, I mean, I work there and I, you know, I show up and I'm. Exactly. Yeah. So I want to separate out the reality of the situation, which is you are on the inside. You are gainfully employed by the, as far as we know right now, right? You're employed. You're going to meetings. Sounds like you're doing a good job. You've been there a couple of years. Right. So you are on the inside of the company, but the feeling you have, how you're experiencing it.
is as being on the outside. But the reality of it is you are inside and you do belong because you're there. You got that job. And I feel a great deal of job security, too. So I don't think I'm going anywhere. So and I've been told that, too, of the, you know, the value that I bring and that I'm a key part of the team in the future. curious around your internal measure. of feeling like you belong. Because what I've heard you say up until now is, I don't feel like I belong because of how others...
are behaving. I don't even know if they're behaving a particular way. Are they? That's why I was saying what has happened, you know, has some particular things happened. Are they behaving in a particular way? That puts you on the outside or that make you feel like you're being left out? No, not necessarily. I think just seeing how insular, you know, as you kind of, you know, five years in or whatever. kind of see more deeper into the organization and seeing how insular it is.
It sometimes feels tough to kind of break into that. And is that if you were to break into that, what would that do for you? I don't know. I think I'm just trying to As I grow and develop in my career and as a leader, really committed to being able to to the, you know, organization and the mission and the work and really. is very fulfilling professionally and want to want to stay here. So really. want to work on what I can work on to thrive here.
I understand. And I don't want to lose sight. Like, I'm not dismissing what you're saying. I just think that there, I think we have to be careful of the words that you're using to describe your experience. Right. And I don't want you to lose sight of the fact that you are there. I also don't want to absolve that it is an insular. It sounds like. So my question is, is the goal of breaking into an insular culture or what feels insular, is that goal?
the one that is going to get you to what you want. I'm not sure. I think, you know, coming from like a more technical background, I think I used to believe that the work should speak for itself, that you, you know, kind of focus on that and that will. elevate you and you know people will just automatically see that and I think as I've developed in my career I've learned that
You know, you need to be able to kind of build that net of trust and relationships and communication, because if you're showing up and doing the work, but nobody sees it, does it exist? Is it valued? You know. And all that. So I think I really worked to kind of develop on being able to kind of communicate outward and showcase and advocate for things and being able to speak. to, you know, executive levels to advocate for why, you know, our work is important and the priorities and the needs.
And the goals beyond that. So kind of the internal marketing of the work. I think I'm working on that. And I think I'm just at a point where it's like, okay, you know, on the kind of personal relationship side. What are some techniques that I can work and build on that to help being seen as a leader? Because I can't. magically come up with decades of relationship building of where I'm coming in right now.
How do you crack that code? How do you crack that code? So here's the thing, right? Like I hear you around, you know, you've understood that the work doesn't always speak for itself, that you have to go out and communicate it and advocate for it. What also doesn't speak for itself is sort of wishing and hoping. that someone will make the translation that, oh my gosh, this person is doing more in their job or scope, and therefore we should formalize.
No, every now and then we have, you know, the I just saw the movie Wicked. So I'm obsessed. Right. We'll have somebody, some very godparent will just say who comes and says, oh, my goodness. Yes, I recognize it. I see it. And we are now going to formalize this thing. But it doesn't always happen. And in your case, that seems to be the case. So if that doesn't happen, what can you do to try to make that happen? Yeah. How can I be a better advocate for myself?
Or, you know, how can I help make that happen? So what have you tried? I think I've tried, you know, in different review and check-in spaces to highlight the work that I'm doing and get feedback on that. you know, kind of give in some of these more, these higher level or leadership, you know, projects or responsibilities and talk about that growth trajectory of like, what could this turn into the future? You know, how could this?
role that kind of spells out some of these responsibilities. So I've definitely had those conversations with my manager. I think we're just in a, you know, holding period in the department of making big moves or You know, there's there's kind of like a like a be patient. So you've made the specific ask for in the way that you shared with me earlier, right? I want more kind of formal recognition of everything I'm doing. And here's what it would look like, either a title or a promotion or.
compensation or scope of responsibilities, you've made that specific an ask and you've been told, be patient. That's what's happened. Yeah, I think I've tried to put it out there. Definitely, you know, had a conversation of like. This is the work that I'm doing. I want to be recognized for it. And I think there's going to be some more opportunity or I've been told there's been some more opportunity in the future.
to kind of, yeah, be patient and hold tight. And so I'm just wondering if there's anything I can work on in the meantime, whatever is coming down the pike in the future, you know, that might. be more in line with what I'm hoping for and looking for. And what are you being patient for? Meaning what's supposed to be happening in the meantime that is creating the need to be patient?
I'm not sure. I think things in the organization, it's not a time to upset the Apple card in terms of like organization that it's, you know, not a reorg opportunity right now. So I'm going to see, you know, in the next year if there's maybe some more opportunity for that. Okay. And if you knew the reasons why you need to be patient, kind of from an organizational context or from any other context, what would that do for you? I think that might help clarify.
what is going on on the organizational level and how that relates, you know, kind of trickles down to where I'm at and where the team is at. Like I said, I think it's at this transitional moment organization-wide that's... Folks with a lot of tenure are looking towards their next steps of, you know, transition in the company. So that's why I think there's more, you know, I've been told there's more opportunity in the future, not, you know, super vague, nothing is promised.
But I think there's more opportunity there. I think I'm just trying to build on my skill sets and the work that I'm doing and how I'm approaching the work and how I'm. approaching some of these like stretch responsibilities that you know i'm taking on i feel really good about that and i i really like doing that that work how can i make myself you know the best
contributor, manager, leader, potential candidate for something more. Yeah. You know, and I understand, Denise, and I'm not ignoring your question at all. The reason why I'm asking you this is because I think we need to understand if that's the right question. Right. Like if the reason you're not getting the formalized role right now is because there are some things going on organizationally that are completely out of your control or your manager's control.
We sort of have to wait for that wave to pass. Is there anything that you could actually do better that could accelerate that? Probably not, right? And I don't know, but I want to make sure that you're focused on the right thing, right? Now, if the other situation is, look. even if those opportunities were available. because of xyz then the answer is okay here are the two or three skills that you need to improve on
My concern is that you're interpreting what is a organizational issue as something that you need to do something about. How does that land with you? contexts and forces beyond your control in an organization that Yeah, it's definitely trying to interpret what is going on on an organization level and then kind of like filtering down on a team level.
and whatnot that kind of all blends together and trying to kind of sort that out. So there's an opportunity for potential clarification that may be helpful to you. And that clarification is the question that I asked you, right? I understand I need to be patient. Manager, get it. I'll be patient. What exactly am I being patient for, right? What needs to happen on the outside? So I think getting that clarification to separate what is happening organizationally.
with what is happening with you and what's within your control is important. But let's assume that there are things that you could do. With your manager, have you asked that manager the very question you're asking me, which is what are some of the things that I could be working on to make me a viable candidate when those opportunities come up?
I haven't asked that outright like that, so maybe I should. What would stop you from doing so? Maybe just fear. Fear of what? Fear of being told that you're not a viable candidate for... more opportunities in the future. And if that were to happen, what would you do with that? I don't know. I think I would ask for some more feedback. Really take a look at what might be... And look, I can understand a lot of times we don't ask the question because we're concerned about what the answer could be.
But without the answer, without an understanding, then it's very hard to navigate how we move forward. Yeah. And we make up our own assumptions. which kind of leads us back to the beginning of our conversation. So you sort of have a choice. We can kind of play a guessing game around what are the things that you could do. Or you can try to get more concrete information and feedback, and then you have a choice. But at least you're doing it with eyes wide open.
Okay. How does that feel to you? Scary. Having some more direction and clarity is better than the kind of assumptions of what's in the dark. So that's something that I can work with more. Yeah. And so I'd love to hear from you. What are areas where you'd like to have some more direction and clarity that would make you feel like? you know how to hold this time that you're in when you're being asked to be patient.
I don't know, to be honest. You know, where do I fit into the team, you know, a couple years down the line? Where do you see my growth trajectory going? That kind of pathway of, you know, what does my future look like here? And I think it's tough. I talked about this transitional moment company-wide of, you know, a lot of folks with tenure there kind of moving on to next chapters in their lives. So I'm not sure if anyone really knows what a couple of years.
down the road will look like company-wide and team-wide. I think there's some old pathways and ways of doing things that's very familiar company-wide for folks that have been there for a long time. may be harder to articulate moments of change and what that vision for the future looks like. And do you think that with everything that's kind of going on...
In the ecosystem, meaning there's some resistance to change because things have been ingrained. There's a culture that precedes you, right? That's been there a long time. To what extent do you feel like what you're facing? specifically due to the way that you are leading or positioning yourself? Or do you think anyone who is new in that organization would be experiencing the same thing?
I think anyone who is new in the organization would be experiencing some of that to some extent. And I think I've witnessed other people coming hot, you know, and met with a lot of resistance. to change or outside experience. So I think I'm trying to tread very carefully and build trust and work on the kind of collaboration side of things.
you know, that if I were to, or when I do, you know, present moments of change or, you know, different way of doing things that I have the support of my team and cross-functionally too. I mean, you know, Denise, what I'm not hearing and anything that you're saying, and please correct me if I've missed it. is I'm not hearing any evidence that what you're doing is off-putting, being rejected, not valued. And so...
There's a question from me around, is it really a matter of you doing things differently than what you've been doing? Or there's a level of patience. That needs to happen exactly what your manager said, because it's sort of like keep doing what you're doing, but it's going to take longer than you probably would like. That's a fair point.
I think coming in, you know, I did rely heavily on outside experience, technical skills, and I think I did ruffle some feathers at the beginning and have course corrected. learned from that and tried to develop some more on the relationship side and the collaboration side and trust and all that. So I've definitely tried to develop and learn and invest in, you know, myself and, you know, when kind of being invited inside to some of the more leadership opportunities, being able to learn from that.
So I think you're probably right. It just takes time and building more. Yeah. I mean, it might. I don't know. Right. Which is an expectation setting. And then you have, you know, you have a question you have to ask yourself. Like, do I want to be that patient? Which is why I think getting some clarity around what it would take is important. I think the other thing I haven't necessarily heard, but again, tell me if.
I either missed it or it's there, but we haven't talked about it, is to what extent have you gotten some data points and some feedback as to whether what you're doing... is working or not to create those connections and those relationships, not to make them the same as what other, you know, the tenured people have.
but just to create connections and relationships and start building that fabric. To what extent have you gotten any feedback on that? I have received some good feedback in the past six months, maybe, of some real growth and evolution and how to... manage and lead more successfully because of investing in those kind of pathways of communication and trust building. So I think it's something definitely that I...
intentionally sought out to work on, knowing that that's not necessarily a weakness, but just something that I have less development experience in. And so I have received some good feedback around that. It's a really good sign that Denise has gotten positive feedback around the work she's doing in building relationships at her company. A place where relationships seem to be really important.
Articulating this also helps differentiate the feeling she's having of being an outsider from the reality. In a lot of leadership situations where we feel stuck, it's easy to experience what we're facing as difficult or even impossible. But without asking directly, we might not really ever know what's truly going on. So in coaching, I like to have leaders help themselves understand why they might fear speaking up or asking, and then imagine what might happen in that scenario.
Often, it can help us see more options and become more comfortable with doing the uncomfortable. Denise is most likely doing what she needs to do in terms of the work and in terms of relationship building. Whether that's enough, she can only know by having more conversations with decision makers. Since that's hopefully something she can do and do soon, we'll jump back in now by walking through what those conversations could look like.
So if you were to have that conversation, what's the question that you could ask in a way that makes you comfortable, but also makes you feel like you would be able to get a response? Yeah, I think I'm hesitant around putting myself out there so directly like that of like, this is what I want. What would it take for me to get there, you know? well what's the alternative i don't know doing the work and letting it show for itself i mean that is a choice
But it's the choice that you told me you learned a while back didn't quite work. It's not enough. It's like you need that foundation of the work. Yeah. Right. I think what we're getting at is do the work, let the work speak, but you also have to speak for yourself. And that a part of that is being able to articulate. what it is that you want, and be ready for whatever answer you're going to get. Because without that answer, you don't know what you're next.
I'm not in a position to be able to tell you what to work on. So the question is right, but you've got to be able to address it with the people who would actually be able to give you an answer. Yeah. What would make you feel more courageous? And being able to ask that question. I think I shied away from the kind of. conversations like that that could be interpreted as like overt political positioning trying to angle your way you know what i mean
to a higher position, maybe just building the courage. I don't know. In what way could you have that conversation? in a way that didn't make it feel like you were angling politically to get to a higher position. I think I have a really great relationship with my manager and a lot of trust is there and open communication. I would feel comfortable having these types of conversations. Yeah, I'm not sure what's holding me back from the courage to kind of be more forthright.
This is where I would want to go. How can I get there? What are you concerned would happen if you did do that? I don't know. Maybe there's more hurdles and things to work on than I realized. Or maybe there's a path that has fewer opportunities for growth than I'm hoping for. Maybe there is and maybe there's not. We don't know. And really, I'm agnostic, right? I just want you to have choices. The choices is you can operate.
In not knowing and hoping that what you're doing is going to make the mark. It's like shooting darts in the dark and hoping it hits the target. And the other choice is... put it out there, bring some light to it, and see if you get a response so that then you actually know what the target is. The target will either be I'm either on the right path. or I'm not on the right path, so now I know what I need to do to course correct. Or it's still unclear what the path is.
which would bring you right back to where you are right now. But at least you'll know there's a reason you are where you are now. Does the fear need to not exist for you to be able to have the conversation? No, but I think that the clarity of having the conversation to bring air to it, I think is a good thing. What is the path forward? I think feedback is so important and, you know, it's a learning opportunity. So being able to.
be open and forthright about the path that I'm on. And given over the past years, some of the bigger projects that I've been able to take lead on, how can we continue that in the future? I mean, in a way, Denise, it's interesting, right? Because I feel like by not putting yourself out there in the way that we just described it, you're reinforcing the sense of being on the outside. Yeah, I think those pesky assumptions, you know, come into play when you're in the dark.
Yeah. I mean, when we're in the dark, we can't even really see if we're in the inside or the outside, can we? Just trying to feel for the door. Where where's the door? That's right. Feel for the door. Feel for the door. Exactly. Exactly. So. I know that your original question was, what do I do, right? In order to position myself, how do I, you know, how do I thrive as an outsider where being an insider is?
I think there's some data that you need to even be able to make that determination. But in the process of getting that data, you're setting the path to be able to make choices in terms of how you thrive. I'm curious whether approaching it from the perspective of insider and outsider, in what way does that help you in terms of what you're trying to achieve?
No, it feels very divisive. You know, I don't think it's helpful. And I think I've bristled to that type of labeling when hearing it in a workplace environment. And in no way am I suggesting that there is not an insider outsider culture. I don't want to, you know, ignore that that's what you're experiencing. All I'm asking is, does that question help you get to what you're trying to achieve?
And if the answer is, I don't know, I kind of bristle at it. I'm not quite sure. Then the question becomes, OK, in what other way could I frame this? to help me get to what I want, which is to understand what it would take for me to be formally recognized in this role. So in what way could you reframe the question for yourself in a way that actually helps you move towards the goal that you want? How can I... lead forward with purpose and with those
relationships of trust and collaboration. You know, how can I build on my skill set? to be a better leader, I guess. How did that question feel for you relative to your concern around coming off as politically angling for a higher role? I mean, I think it. more reflective and, you know, focused on what more proactive, what I can do, how I can grow and develop on my own skill sets of like within the realm of my control. you know, how I can add value and
you know, push forward and focus on the work and the team, not so much on the labels. Okay. And so your manager is somebody that you could have that conversation with? Are there other roles within the organization? And I'm asking this specifically because it's an organization that's deep in terms of relationships and connections. Are there others within the organization that you think?
And you don't have to name them, but that you think it would be worthy to be able to get that type of feedback and have that type of conversation with. Yeah, and I've definitely had that type of conversation with another mentor that I've developed in the organization that does have a lot of... tenure. So I've been able to kind of be open about
where I'm seeing myself and where I'd like to see myself in the future. I don't know where to go from here. Yeah. The question is, are you getting the answers that you like? Yeah, I think it's similar to the kind of patient. And focus on the work and building upon your own skills and, you know, kind of taking an honest look about what some things are to develop on.
You know, I think they've all been within that realm. And I've also heard some different perceptions that I've brought up to my mentor, who does have a lot of tenure, hear that, you know, that feeling of... feeling like an outsider, you know, to an insider environment. She actually said that was interesting because as somebody who has... been there for a long time, her perception was that a lot of times there is almost the opposite of feeling undervalued being there for a long time versus...
Some new hotshot coming in, you know, wanting to shake things up that there. Often a perception of looking to the outside for like a magic solution of this person will come in and solve all the problems. So that was definitely broadened my understanding. perception of, you know, what the other side might look like. I mean, that's so interesting to me because in both cases, it is defining your value relative to the other.
Right. You are defining your value or measuring your value in comparison to those who have been there. for a longer period of time. This individual that you spoke to is measuring it relative to the people who are coming in. That's fine, but that's always going to be a moving target. And so my question for you is like, how do you measure your own value? What is it based on? How do you ground it in something concrete?
Which is why I think these conversations around, well, let me understand, you know, if the opportunity did show up, what are the things? That would be needed. And then let me take an honest look at myself to say, do I have them? Do I have not? And if I don't. Then do I want to do something about them? And how?
In the same way that you have done when you joined this organization to say, oh, I'm great at technical skills, but I see now I need to be able to build the collaboration and the trust, etc. So I'm going to build that muscle and I'm going to use it a lot more. Same thing. You made that assessment. My sense is it's probably time for another baseline assessment.
Yeah. And I think being on the other side of some of these growth opportunities and projects that went really, really well from feedback and were successful, I think, you know, kind of taking stock of like, okay, that definitely was a stress. And definitely built on some skill sets that were, you know, some muscles that were underdeveloped. And how can I incorporate that learning back into the work? Like you said, how I see that value of what I bring. Yep.
So I think we've talked about kind of some tactical things that you can do, right? I want to make sure that we're also paying attention to the cultural aspects of this organization, which is you have joined an organization that has. a certain culture, as do all organizations. And this one, as you named it, you named it as being insular, that there are deep-rooted relationships based on tenure and how long people have been around.
So you're able to name it and see it for what it is. And there's a question for me around to what extent are you okay with working in that type of culture? It's one of the things that makes the organization really unique
that people want to stick around for a long time. And that's rare. There's a lot of institutional knowledge in that. And there's a lot of... close relationships that have been formed you know and that you see that community aspect of where you work one of the things that that drew me to this role in this company So I think I definitely want to be here and to work towards that shared purpose that's there and maybe evolve the culture a little bit. And maybe evolve the culture a little bit, right?
And so one of the things that may be helpful is to ask yourself, how do I leverage the strengths of this culture? to help me accomplish my goals. And you just named what the things are that you appreciate about it, what the strengths are. So when I frame the question that way. What is your first kind of reaction to it? How do you think you could leverage the strengths of it to support you on your path?
asking for feedback and advice and learning from those who've come before me in the organization. I think trying to understand as much of that, you know, being in that kind of listening and understanding sponge mode to pick up the lessons. I think an element of that is being patient too, of not being in a... executive leadership role at the moment.
where if I wanted to make broad sweeping changes, I'm certainly not in a position right now to do that, but maybe just taking in as much as I can learn from the people who are still here. what decisions I might have to make in the future. Yeah. And what's interesting, Denise, is like people think that when they are in that executive role, they can make those broad sweeping changes all of a sudden. And that is not the case. OK, they try, but especially in a culture like that, it backfired.
So potentially this is practice ground for when you are in that role. Okay. When that time comes. I'd like to think that you have limited capital for making change. So being very specific and targeted and focused with that capital of how to use. And particularly, again, in an organization where it sounds like social capital is very valued.
one of the ways that you could be spending the time that you have now is building that social capital. And so when we talk about leveraging the strength, of the organization which is the relational aspects the deep institutional knowledge when we talk about you know there's change happening or things that are going to be happening, but we need to wait for some of this movement to happen. There's no way you can accelerate it.
What can you be doing in the meantime? Build your own social capital, which it sounds like you've been doing. So it's more around do more of it. Okay. So I wish I could tell you, here's the one, two, three. In terms of getting exactly, you know, kind of formalizing the value that you bring. But there's so much more at play outside of what's in your control right now. Okay. That said, I think there are some things that you can.
Okay. So I'd love to hear from you how you feel now at the end of our conversation versus how you felt when we first started.
When we first started, I felt a little more in the dark of... the path forward and assumptions maybe we're coloring some of that a lot more so naming what the assumptions are help give light to what is an interpretation and what is the data behind you know my my perception of where i'm at breaking it apart and giving light to all of those things I do think that kind of honest look of another baseline assessment and conversation with.
My manager and other mentors that I have in the organization would help give more light. So what is that path forward? It feels like when you're going down a trail and you're like, wait a second, is this the right trail? I can't see the path forward. So it's like taking that moment to stop.
and look at the clues around you of what can you see what are those trail markers what is that map where am i what can i perceive and all that just is data that gives more light to what that path forward is so i definitely feel better about having those conversations, but then also being patient. Maybe just because I'm ready to take on some more leadership responsibilities that.
Those things aren't necessarily ready for me to take them on. That's right. That's right. You know, the two have to be aligned. And while clarity in the path is necessary. Sometimes all that's necessary to be able to take one step forward on that path is clarity on what that next step is.
without seeing the whole way okay and i think you have a little bit more clarity as you said than you did at the outset and now take the next step what's the next step of getting more clarity okay thank you thank you Organizational cultures will have an impact on your career and your leadership and they can be an uphill battle to fight or change.
But if you decide to wait it out to see if those changes come to fruition, it can be helpful to focus on setting a clear goal, communicating that goal with your leadership, and working on the skill building and relationship building that you need to reach that goal. These are all helpful ways to focus your energy while at the same time paying attention to whether there is movement on the organizational side of things.
While we all love a clear list of actions coming out of a coaching session, a reframing of the problem statement or perspective is just as impactful and necessary to move to meaningful action. Such was the case for Denise as she went from seeing the organizational culture as an obstacle to a possible opportunity.
By making a commitment to have more exploratory conversations with leadership and spending the time to build more social capital, she's leveraging the strengths of the culture versus fighting against it. That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time... In my head, I've always had this goal of being an executive in some kind of organization.
thing holding me back and there's times where like maybe I was meant to be a a lifelong consultant if you'd like to join my community for exclusive live discussions apply to be on the show or sign up for email updates, head over to murielwilkins.com. You can also pre-order my new book, Leadership Unblocked, wherever you get your favorite books. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins and Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins.
Before you go, though, I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders, It would mean the world to me if you could go to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to subscribe to the show and leave a five-star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes,
please share it with them. Thanks to my producer, Mary Du, sound editor, Nick Kringko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my director of operations, Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I'm Uriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.