I'm Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease.
I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Margaret to protect her confidentiality. She's an executive who's held leadership positions for over a decade at a few different companies.
It is highly rewarding, it's high visibility, it's high impact, it's high stress, and it requires always on. But I really love what I do, even when I sometimes don't love the job. I really love... the people problem solving aspect. How do I coach people?
upscale how do i help form context so i'm aware that some of my superpowers in this role are i'm very good at giving context I'm very good at connecting dots for people and I'm a nerd at heart and I love the hands-on and I love the problem solving. After some time at her previous organization, Margaret decided to look for a new executive position. And then she decided to take a chance and take an opportunity abroad.
and i took it for a number of reasons one is it was an overseas opportunity which was very interesting we've traveled a lot and now we have the opportunity to travel more we have a nice window of opportunity where kids are in good shape. They don't need us for a little while. Parents are in good shape. Let's just take the opportunity while we have it. And I really like the company's mission and
It's just one of those things that's just really aligned. But the new role has not been without its challenges. I came in and immediately there was a crisis. So I wound up dying. and getting very tactical and operational to help. get through that crisis. Just as I was hitting a point of okay, I think we've got everything under control, I can pull back up and really start focusing on strategy.
we had another crisis hit my boss had to leave unexpectedly suddenly you know i get thrown into his position as it turns out we also we're in a situation where we were needing to cut costs. I did a big reorg. And at one point for almost the entire year last year, I had 20 direct reports.
which is not tenable at all, and I wasn't able to give them the attention that they needed. I just didn't have the bandwidth and the capacity, and so I felt very bad about not being able to be the leader I needed to be for those. Folks, Margaret, like many executives, is someone who's been in leadership roles for many years. But it still isn't smooth sailing.
She's feeling bogged down in the tactical and managing the unexpected crises, and having a hard time focusing on where she really wants to take her work and her team next. Let's start the conversation as I ask her about where she is today, where she wants to go, and what she thinks might be standing in her way. I'm now in a position where The crises are handled. I've got the right leadership team.
And what I really need to do now is what I should have done two years ago, which is I need to build out the three to five year strategy. I need to make sure that everybody understands what the really, really important things are.
I'm stuck. I feel like I'm still stuck in the operational pieces. I feel like I can't really truly pull myself out of it because i can still see things happening i'm a little exhausted i'm also i've sort of had a point of the previous two jobs i felt like I was firing all cylinders and I had these great superpowers and getting great recognition. And I don't feel like I have those superpowers anymore. And I'm wondering if...
This is a horrible thing to say, but am I past my peak? Did I expend all my superpowers? Am I just done? But I really feel like I have writer's block. I know what needs to be done. I really do. I've been doing this for a long time. I'm well educated and well experienced. I know I need to get this written down. I know I need a communication plan. But when I say I'm working on the plan, I'm working on it for six months, but largely I'm just procrastinating. I want to build a plan.
But there are a couple reasons that I'm feeling stuck. One is The thing I said before, which is there were these crises and I wound up getting sucked down in the tactical and I'm finding it very, very hard to come back up. You faced a number of crises when you first joined the company. The role was not a role that you weren't unfamiliar with, right? It was like sort of leveraged things that you had done in the past. Yes.
but you faced those crises. Those crises resulted in you having to get very tactical, kind of down in the weeds. You're able to uplevel your team. and get past the crises. And now you're at a place of trying to kind of do the longer term thinking three to five years out, something again that you're not unfamiliar with. but you're finding yourself stuck blocked procrastinating from yeah moving forward and doing it
Yes, that's right. Okay, gotcha. And before we jump into what you believe is keeping you blocked, like, what does that feel like to you to feel blocked? How do you know that you're... stuck i have post-it notes all over the place with themes of things that i need to go on that three to five year roadmap and I can't visualize how to put them together. I have action items on my to-do list that go undone for longer than they should just because I look at them and go.
I don't know if that's important enough. I'm having trouble. prioritizing I have a little focus issue but I don't actually think it's a focus issue I can't I like that part I can't pinpoint I've never really had problems focusing although I will say my calendar is full every single day So getting any focus time to actually sit down and like brainstorm and visualize and think only comes on the weekends. And by the time the weekend comes, all I really want to do is sleep. It's like I'm exhausted.
so it's interesting to me because i i asked you what does it feel like to you and what you're describing to me is sort of evident stuck but what does it actually feel like like why is that a problem for you it feels like i'm letting the team down it feels like i'm not doing my job it feels like i am I'm not demonstrating the leadership skills that I know I have. Another example of that is
About nine months into the role, I did a coaching session and had a 360 review. And so a lot of people at the company who knew me by then knew me because of these crises. And the main piece of feedback that came back was, Wow, she's really great in a crisis. Gosh, she really keeps a level head. She's really good at keeping everybody calm. And all of those things are 100% true. That is what I do, and that is part of my job.
That is not my only skill. And it bothers me that when people think about me and what my... skill set is that they just see she's really good in a crisis and not wow she's an amazing leader Gosh, look how she inspires her team. Look how she's moving the needle on what they're actually doing. Because I know I can do those things. Every time I say this, I feel like I'm in victim mode, but I got waylaid by the we had to get tactical and get things done.
And I just still feel like I can't quite pull back out. Yeah. Okay. So what I'm hearing from you is I'm known within this organization as this leader who can, well, somebody who can handle. a crisis because it's interesting to me that you did not use the term leader in that realm you just said somebody who handles crisis And then you juxtapose that with not being seen, that you don't like not being seen as a leader who can inspire and coach people. We'll get to that in a second.
around why is one a leader and the other is not. But before we get there, I have a question around If I were to ask those same folks who responded to that 360 and gave you that feedback around, wow, she really handles crisis well, et cetera, et cetera. If I were to ask them What are their expectations? of the individual who sits in the role that you're in and how do they define success for that role? What is the value they're hoping that role brings? How would they define it?
That's an interesting question because I'm not sure they know. I think they would say my job is to make sure that the company is protected, that information is protected, that... I'm trying to figure out how to say this. This is not coming out quite right. I think they would say, hey, she knows what the job is, so we just expect her to do it well.
It's a, yeah, it's a good question. Why is it a good question to you? What is it bringing up for you? I'm not sure they know what my job is, actually. Except to handle crises. Or prevent the crisis from happening in the first place. And what if that is your job? Well, it sort of is. There's a little bit more than that. It's ensuring that... Everyone in the company understands.
how we manage risks across the company. And part of managing risks is managing the crises that come when a risk manifests. But part of the job is just keeping those risks from manifesting to begin with by communicating by showing a cost-benefit analysis on if we spend this much money, we can reduce the chances of this happening by this much.
And it's that latter part that I haven't... been able to do and I don't think my team is equipped to do yet either and so there's some training and upskilling that needs to happen it's not just that i need the headspace because i can get the headspace i need to get unstuck from where i am i'm just
handling crisis after crisis after crisis and dealing with complaint after complaint after complaint into I'm going to make sure that we as an organization are serving the business, that we are demonstrating that we can make the business better by showing how much we can. save, we can improve the business. Yeah. But what I'm hearing you say is you are demonstrating value in the role.
It just feels to you like you're not demonstrating the full value that you can bring. Yes, I think that's true. Yes. Okay. Now the question is, what is the value that is needed? in your organization, right? Because I can say, hey, I can run, you know, 26.2 miles, but if the race only calls for 13.1, Do I really need to run the 26? I'm not going to get an extra prize for running 26.2, right? I better go find a race that requires 26.2. So I'm not saying...
good or bad. I'm just asking, is the need in your organization and the expectations of your organization aligned with the expectations that you have of yourself as a leader? So there's second part of that is good let me come back to that the the other piece of this is i like the running analogy I don't think we need to run a marathon. I think we at least need to hit the 5k and right now all we're doing is sprint.
Because we keep having these crises and we're just sprinting and then sort of resting for a little bit and then we're sprinting again. If we can do the 5k or the 10k, we can do fewer sprints. If I can demonstrate if we do these things and we do them in the right way and we do them in this methodical... here's my long-term plan to help us get where we need, nobody has to keep running sprints. We actually get to run together. We get to support one another in this 5K or 10K.
And we all get to the finish line at the same time. Right now, nobody's actually getting to the finish line because we just keep, these crises just keep coming. We have to stop the crises from coming. because everybody's just going to keep getting exhausted if we don't do it the right way. Okay. What conditions would need to be in place for you to be able to run the 5K, i.e. what conditions would need to be in place in order for the crises to stop coming? So I need to be able to articulate.
what the actual risks are, what we're trying to accomplish, why it's better for us in the long term to address these now than to keep. addressing them as crises as they come up ultimately when the crisis happens we put a bunch of band-aids on and it stops again but if we actually you know put the brace on first
And then actually did the training. We would build up better muscle and then we wouldn't have to have the band-aids on all the time. So if I can do a better job, both myself and... helping again helping my team get there of explaining this is our long-term journey this is our couch potato to marathon training over the next three years And the reason it's good for us is because we will get, you know,
You'll be able to speed up your development and delivery because all of the right things will be in place and you won't get pulled back every six months because we have some sort of crisis because something didn't go well. There are ways that I can demonstrate. They're not easy metrics, but there are metrics there that I can demonstrate where we can help reduce tech debt. We can reduce incidents that cost us money in the end.
It's the stopping and sitting down and getting out of my own head to write that down. And what would need to be in place for you to do that, to stop and sit down and write it down? Stop, set, and write. I know, it seems so easy, doesn't it? I mean, part of it's calendaring and I'm aware that that's largely under my control most of the time. Again, when incidents keep coming up, some of it's not under my control. I get urgent requests all the time. One other piece that's in place is my boss.
he's also very tactical and so what we've talked about having a broader strategy that I can then also say okay i'm going to hang my strategy on your strategy and we're going to create this vision together there's no vision there and so i'm trying to create a vision that should be part of a broader strategy but it's not because he can't quite get there he will say
no, no, no, I like the strategy, I just need time, and so I feel like I'm a little bit in the same spot. But then he'll spend an afternoon running random reports and then send us all reports saying, look how bad these numbers are. Well that's not strategy, that's not what we actually need.
so we wind up a little bit in whack-a-mole mode and so part of what i wind up doing is responding to him on a regular basis and trying to follow up on these random things, which effectively is just another crisis. Technically a crisis. I've got some big news to share. I've got a new book coming out. Leadership Unblocked is launching this October with HBR Press, and I can't wait. I'll see you next time. and you'll be among the first to receive a copy.
shows us that even when you've led at multiple organizations, for years, probably always arise. That's because even while drawing on your own and knowing what you're capable of, the chemistry of the The culture of the organization and even your own energy change. What started out as a viewed more about her own internal ability to put together a plan to push through what she calls her version of a writer's block, quickly turned into a multi-layered
her team and whether they need more upskilling or whether her boss is what's keeping her stuck. We're still digging more into what is really holding her back from putting together a proactive plan instead of always reacting. I mean I love that you used, you know, whack-a-mole.
because i am envisioning you whacking that you know that game where you're whacking them down because you are you're in reactive mode reacting to whatever pops up whether it's your boss whether it's you know whatever is happening And it's interesting to me that I asked you, what do you need to stop, sit, and write? And you went to what's getting in the way of you stopping, sitting, and writing. I'm still not hearing what would it take.
for you to stop, sit, and write this story that you actually articulated which is the you know couch potato to a marathon in whatever many weeks which i love right i think i might use that as our analogy now this is this is our vision board so what let's like imagine what would you need what needs to be true For you too. stop sit and write for one hour okay so what needs to be true so either
We need to have no more crises, which is probably unrealistic. Or I need to be able to confidently delegate those crises to somebody else. that's number one i won't go into whether whether or not i can actually do that i'll just say i think that that's part of it either i need my boss to stop randomly sending metrics or i guess Same thing, I need to be able to confidently delegate that to somebody else to deal with.
I will say in that case, I do feel like I need to protect my team from that to some degree. Like, why do they need to deal with that noise? Except that means I'm dealing with the noise. So it would be nice if he would stop. I don't see that happening. So either I need to deal with the noise myself or be able to delegate the noise to somebody else. Or I need to figure out how to have a conversation with my boss on...
this is not productive and you need to stop it, which is also reasonable. Yeah, and so, you know, Margaret, I'm going to try to keep it simple because I'm a pretty basic, simple type of person. What needed to be true and what enabled you? to take the hour or two hours that we're spending together today. I put it on my calendar, I blocked it off, and I blocked off time to prep for it. So what would it take for you to do the same thing, to write your couch potato to marathon plan?
and if it's time on my calendar i need to protect it and not let those crises interrupt that block time so what can you use from what's happening literally right now in the moment because in the time that we've been speaking so far and i'm gonna like look for wood that i can knock on there we go Well, I will say I was literally in a crisis meeting about an hour before you and I met. Okay, but yet here you are, right? So we have evidence that it can be done. And that's all I want.
What I'm trying to figure out is what's the formula that allowed right now to happen, which is, you know, we've at least had a good... You know, chunk of time. I'm not saying it's going to be enough to write the whole plan. But we've had a chunk of time right now that allowed you to do this. So what's the formula that you can then transpose to other areas where you find you're not? getting that not to be flippant but this was nine o'clock my time p.m. so it's not during my normal daytime
So it was actually easier to schedule. I am not unwilling to spend after hours time.
doing what i need to do but i will also say that the brain power that it takes to do that is not something i want to do late at night because i tried it multiple times and it doesn't work and it doesn't really end in good results right that this this takes midday fully awake semi-caffeinated brain power time to actually work on there there is a piece of protecting the calendar it seems like it should not be that hard but there's a
because of the job i do and because of the regular i mean there are there are literally weekly issues that happen at least so i mean part of it is i think as we're talking about this figuring out how to truly delegate to somebody else and say, you know what, for the next two hours you need to take meetings, you need to do whatever the things are. I'm not going to put anything else on my calendar.
and trusting that they're able to handle whatever issues come up in that moment or conversations with other leaders that come up in that moment. and trust that I don't actually have to be in that room. And have you ever tried that? Yes, I think I'm closer now than I probably was. six months ago, and I had 20 direct reports. I have a leadership team in place.
now that I think is really good. I think there's still some room for development but I wouldn't necessarily hesitate to put them in front of other leaders so I think I'm in a much better position than I was just a few months ago.
To be honest, I also think I need to convince everybody else that the leaders I have under me now are strong people have gotten used to coming just directly to me and so they'll just keep coming directly to me because they know i'll fix their problem for them yeah And so I need to tell them
yes, I know I could fix it for you and I could probably fix it for you quickly, but I actually want you to go work with that person and let them help you fix it instead because I need to start delegating so that somebody else can take this on. Yeah, I mean, you know what's coming up for me is when you shared that You took this role overseas, right? And you and your partner, your husband, decided, yep, we're gonna do it. And you described it as...
There was a window where things were aligned in a way where it was possible, right? The kids were good. The parents are good. You have this window where you can go and do your thing. And I think in a way you're sort of describing right now creating that window. Not necessarily waiting for the window to just happen, but creating the window.
And so just in the same way that the window for you to be able to work overseas was the kids being good, the parents being good, you know, all these stars aligning. I'm going to shift a little bit and say well what are the stars that would need to align in order for you to now have a window where you can focus and engage in these longer term as we call them, right, highly important, not urgent.
But the difference is you're not going to wait for them to just happen organically. Yeah. You're going to try to actually align them yourself. but the first place is like what are those stars and then let's talk about how you align them i like that thank you i think that's a good parallel So what stars need to be aligned? I need to have the right leadership team under me that not only do I trust, but our stakeholders also trust. I need my boss to not play whack-a-metric.
I need... I need the right support from a communications plan. I need the space to be able to communicate with the team on a regular basis and I've been very I just haven't been very good about doing that. It's one of the things that doesn't necessarily come naturally to me. I love doing it but I really have to think about it. I'm not an extrovert.
communicating outwardly on a regular basis is not one of the first things i think about doing and historically when i've done this and done it well i've had a team around me who said hey by the way we're hearing stuff or we think we're gonna hear stuff soon can you you know can you post something can you say something can you an email out, whatever. And I don't necessarily have that around me right now. So I need people around me who will help signal those things for me. Give me the space.
trust time trust in time i need a little inspiration that i can figure out if i get the brain space i can also ask my team for that i mean and that's that's the other thing i'm i'm also aware that they can help with this but i also there's a little bit of a This is my job to create the strategy. Yeah. and to give them the messaging that then they can take forth. I don't want to put it on their shoulders that they're suddenly supposed to create this strategy.
Although it's a good development opportunity for them also to help me with that process. So if I can find the in-person, off-site, whatever time with them and let them help with that. we'd probably come up with a better product. There's a couple of things there, okay? First of all, kudos to you for identifying the stars because there's a lot of stars out there.
You could look up at the sky and not see them because, you know... cloudy etc but you're seeing the stars and then you're picking them and you're creating your own you know big dipper diagram to recognize This is what I need to align and how I need it to align in order for me to be able to have that window, that space to be able to do the strategic things that I said I want to do. So kudos there.
One of the things to realize in choosing those stars is also which ones are actually in your control and which ones are not. And so you named... are number one as being having a leadership team that I trust and others trust. In your control, not in your control. Where would you put that?
Do you have influence over it? Do you not have influence over that? I think I do, actually, to some extent, right? I mean, I can't control their actions, which will, in fact, influence whether people address them or not. But if I... can communicate to our stakeholders that I trust them and that I not just say the words I trust them, but actually demonstrate that I've put my trust in them.
then that will go a long way to having the stakeholders actually trust them. Now, the actions they take after that are not under my control. And if they aren't able... to reinforce that trust, then we have to have a whole different performance conversation.
Okay, it's sort of like middle ground. You can't fully control it. If others trust them, you can do things to influence that. But you trusting them, that is in your control. Okay, you choose whether you... trust and as you said before one of the ways you can demonstrate that is do you delegate certain things to them which is supported by trust so we can grab that star right that star fits in the diagram star number two was boss doesn't play
whack-a-mole whack-a-metric in your control not in your control and not in my control at all i thought it was for a while that if i just did what he asked that it would help but then i realized he was just going to move on to the next one and then on to the next one 100% not in my control okay love it beautiful wish we could have it wish upon a star but in that part can be in the galaxy but not part of your diet.
okay let's just put that one to the side and hope that eventually it aligns on its own star number three was Being able to communicate with your team on a regular basis, but also having support. to help you do that because it's something that you know you can do. But in order to be able to do it, one of the conditions that you need is support in terms of others signaling to you, hey, this is the time or this is what we need to do.
In your control, not in your control. That one is in my control. I can pick the right people or I can communicate. at least especially with my direct staff and say, this is my strength, this is not my strength. I need a little help where I don't have the strength for you to point out.
where I'm not communicating when I should or you know find a comms director who can help me create the plan and identify even if it's a rote on a regular cadence it's still getting out there and i don't have any of that right now it's very ad hoc and i know i know i'm doing myself a disservice by not communicating with the team on a regular basis it's so important from an inspiration from a context from an engagement standpoint and i really feel like i'm falling down on that one okay so
You know, what is clear to me is you have outlined all the conditions that you need. And there's a distinction between what are the conditions that I need? to be able to do this work versus How do I do the work? And you've been jumping right into, you know, how do I actually write this plan? Yeah. And yet what's keeping you stuck is the conditions haven't been in place for you to have the space to write the plan.
And so sometimes, right, we ought to kind of go back a couple of levels when we're not doing the thing that we know we're supposed to do. Sometimes we got to like lay out the conditions. that then either inspire or motivate or just make it more amenable. for us to actually do the thing right so like i think about there are certain things that i really don't like to do right i hate working on my bills hate having to like do some administrative so
And I find myself procrastinating on those things. So what I learned is, oh, like, let me make it. an experience that is more amenable to me what do i do that well what are the conditions that would need to be in place that would make that path one that i really don't enjoy one that would be a little bit more enjoyable so you know what i do when i have to do my bills i light candles in my office
I, you know, have nice music playing in the background. I love that. Like, my surroundings are conducive, right? Yeah. I put a time limit. I align all the stars. to make it a little bit more palatable. Yeah. to have me focus on it. And I think that's what you've been able to do here, right? Like, what are the stars? What are the stars that are in your control? I think you're right. I've been sort of flogging myself for, why can't you just sit down and get this done?
but not really thinking about what are the things that are keeping me from getting it done and what could I change that would make it easier or pave the path for me to actually get there and it's not just a Oh, I have control over my calendar. I should just figure it out. I actually need other people to help me.
give them the calendaring pieces that I can't take on or that I shouldn't take on because I need to do this because it's important you know it's a lot of leaders feel like we need to shield some of our folks from overloading their plates overburdening them but if we don't make the space To do those strategy things, to do the communication things, to do the visionary and inspiring things we're really doing them a disservice.
because we're not giving them anything to hook onto in their own daily lives. We've reached an important point here in Margaret's culture. When we began our session, Margaret feared that she was losing some of her superpowers. Standing in the way
was capable of. Getting more into the details about what was preventing her from putting a plan together We quickly discovered that there were many other stakeholders, competing priorities, and organizational structures that were also contributing to her writer's block. It's good to acknowledge the gray area here. Some coaching clients come fast belief.
their own behavior others come with problems they attribute to outside forces beyond their control like a boss the reality is with almost every leadership issue it's usually some combination internal and external forces helping to create hurdles everything after all is co-created it's a positive sign that Margaret is taking on responsibility here and trying to figure out how she better. she wants to be on while also setting the organization So as she starts to think about practice,
she can take next. I was curious about how she leverages her relationship and whether she was approaching them in a way One of the words that I've heard you repeat a few times in the most recent part of our conversation is this word around help and asking for help. And you said something a little while back around like, well, you know, if I'm the leader, shouldn't I be able, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sort of using my own words here, but if I'm the leader, shouldn't I be the one who?
creates the strategy, right? Should I really be putting that on them? And inherent in that is an assumption that as a leader you can't ask for help. i think that's true i mean yes i think there is And it may be where it came from, it might be because I'm a woman, but yes, I think when you hit a certain point, there's a feeling of, well, I'm here, and...
clearly I know I'm expected to know what to do so I shouldn't be asking anybody else for help because I'm supposed to know what to do. I have also found as I've you know moved up in my career when people talk to you there's a sense of How do I say this?
sense of responsibility to be the person who knows the things right i feel like when people are looking up to me i'm supposed to know all the things i'm supposed to know how to do all the things i'm supposed to be able to just do all of the things i'm supposed to have superpowers because I am where I am and I don't think I'm the only one who feels like that and so I think you know asking for help particularly among
peers and the folks below us becomes very difficult as we continue up through the ranks. What's the risk of doing that? The risk of doing that? is that you potentially look like you don't belong where you are. And what's the risk of not doing that? Well, you don't continue to move up. Oh, so either way. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Good point. Yes. I mean, look, I can't sit here and say, oh, no, people don't believe that. I don't know these folks, you know, who knows?
But it is an assumption, right? It is. I mean, I think it... Yeah, I think it comes down a little bit to imposter syndrome, and I hate that phrase. I think we need to change the script on how we talk about that. It's just a feeling. But it is a, again, at least for... women in traditionally a heavily male field. For things that I need help with, I do in fact have a very trusted circle of people that I will ask questions of. I will not put questions out to an entire group.
largely because again there's a little bit of if somebody even thinks a little bit that maybe i don't deserve to be where i am me asking for help just reinforces that okay and i would not put myself in that position so and i understand and i want to respect where you are in terms of
what you're willing to do or what you're willing to, you know, quote-unquote risk versus not willing to, right? You have your own boundaries around that. What was interesting to me is that in sharing, you said, there's sort of gradients, right? You went from, well, the expectation is that I know everything and I shouldn't ask for help.
And then there was, okay, I might have like a few people I can ask for help, right? And I do have that. And then there's a, but I can't just put it out there to everybody and like yell over the... megaphone help you know somebody come help right you're not doing that either but there's some gradient in there and so you write the rule
What are the rules that would make you feel, okay, here's a formula you're solving for. You said you love solving problems. So here's the problem. What role would need to be in place for yourself where you could... Feel like you belong and safe and you get the help that you need. What would that look like? I like framing it that way. I think that's good because the one thing that I do strongly believe is the leaders that I have working for me.
Know their space and they probably know it a lot better than I do And so I do in fact need their input and help as we're talking about a long-term strategy because I can't, I don't want to impose a strategy that doesn't make sense because I don't know their area. So I think asking for help in that context is
You know, you know your space better than I do. I would really like your input and your help on actually creating this. Let's sit down and talk about how we do this. Or can you write down your ideas? I'll collate all of them and then we'll all come back together and talk about it as a group. But it enables them to be the experts that they are. It enables them to feel like they're supporting me.
what needs to be done. It enables them to feel like they're contributing to the larger vision and the value that we bring to our stakeholders. And it doesn't put the entire burden on me to figure it all out. Yeah, I mean, in a way, you're distinguishing between where everyone adds value, right? You're leaving it up to them to add value from an expertise, a subject matter expertise standpoint. You're no longer, as you said, you want to show up as the leader.
That means you're not the subject matter expert. That's not your role. Do you need to know something? Of course, like we all need to know something, you know, but is your role to know everything? Is that how you measure success in your leadership role? No, that's exhausting. Right. Yeah. And so there's a part of this around. Making sure that you are not only are you aligning the stars, but you're also aligning with the North Star. Okay.
which is how are you defining success in this particular leadership role? and operating according to that. And making sure that all the other stars are aligned with that as well. Which you get to, as we talked about before, you get to place them. You get to allocate them. I like the way you said that because it actually... You said define success in this leadership role. I think I've been trying to define success in this role the way I was successful in previous roles.
It's not going to be the same formula in every role. It was for a few roles. This one's just different for a variety of reasons, I'm sure. I think that's a good way to frame it going forward is for whatever I'm doing. How do I define success in this particular role? I would use the analogy of parenting. What I do now to be a successful parent with an adult child is different than how I would have defined success as a parent.
of a toddler. Very different. It's still parenting. Very different success criteria. That's right. And so guess what? You're still leading. Yeah. Right? If we go back to the beginning of our conversation where you're like, oh, I'm just managing all these crises. I'm not leading. Yes, you are. You're still leading. You've been leading all along.
and now you're out of that or you're trying to find windows so you're still leading and part of figuring out how do you move into this more strategic space is part of the leading. You don't wait till you get there to lead. Yeah. Aligning the stars is part of leading. Okay? Yes. No. That makes sense. Yes. I really... I really do like that framing of it, both the how do I define success in this role, but also the
how do I push the stars into alignment? Because you can't just wait for them. You can see all the little blockers, but actually changing... the way you're looking at them and the which ones do I control what can I move versus what can't I okay if I can't move it then we control what we can control in the moment and we do what we can do with that now that's that's really helpful love that love that okay i feel like this is a good time because there's a lot there and i want to make sure you
are able to walk away with enough in your hands versus too much. Yeah. Then nothing happens, right? how I tend to close my meetings with all of my clients, which is I'd love to hear where you are now versus where you were at the beginning of our conversation. I feel like I knew all of this and you sort of just... pulled it all out, like putting me in a position to think about things differently, right? We all get a little bit stuck in our rabbit holes.
And I really appreciate the way that you... asked different questions gave me different framing because it really I really feel like I'm not stuck in that hole anymore I feel like I can take this and now actually move forward and take some action on you know, re-saying things, re-framing things, re-communicating things. in order to put us all in a better space where I can help create the strategy we need.
I feel a lot better. This is good. This is good. Good. Good. I'm glad to hear it. And you know what? Sometimes... i love the fact that we talked about stars so much today yeah so i'll throw another one in there Sometimes we just need like the full moon to be out to be able to see what's in front of us. And I think that's what happened with you today. So now that you see it.
and you know what you need to do, it's really about just committing to that next step and then keeping it moving for yourself, okay? Yes. Yeah, thank you so much. Very helpful. I appreciate it. Margaret's leadership experience served her well in the past, but in some ways might be what's keeping her from being strategic in her current role as she held on to the belief that she couldn't ask for help and that she should have all the answers.
My job as an executive coach is often to challenge those assumptions. By asking her what conditions might lead to a different outcome, Margaret realized that what was keeping her from leading strategically was in large part under her control. For her, taking steps to bring the stars into alignment wasn't about just clearing her calendar or sitting herself down and really making herself focus. It was also about learning to lead at scale by being clear about what's needed and asking for support.
That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time... So while I am here doing everything by the book, going through the correct channels of authority if I need something done or approved or whatever... He just goes right into the owner's office and gets what he wants. which is frustrating. How do I rise above that? If you'd like to join my community for exclusive live discussions, apply to be on the show, or sign up for email updates, head over to Muriel's
MurielWilkins.com. You can also pre-order my new book, Leadership Unblocked, wherever you get your favorite books. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins and Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins. Before you go, though, I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders, It would mean the world to me if you could go to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to subscribe to the show and
And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. Thanks to my producer, Sound editor, Nick Kringko. Campbell, my Director of Operations, Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I'm Uriel Wilkins. Meanwhile.