I'm Mariel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease.
I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's guest is someone we'll call Elsie to protect her confidentiality. She's been at the director level for a few years, and her goal is to next become a VP, a leadership position she never would have imagined earlier in her life.
I did not seek out leadership at any point in my career. I did not know that that was going to be in the cards for me. It wasn't something that I specifically directed myself towards as far as education or development until. was identified as someone that could potentially have those skills. Despite feeling like she's succeeding in her current role, Elsie is concerned that tension with Akali could be standing in her way of being promoted to VP.
That colleague had been a mentor and previously held the director role that Elsie is in, but now they're peers. And the situation has changed. It was really this individual that I'm now struggling with who identified that things I was doing just naturally, my natural habits and work ethic. could benefit our company in a leadership role.
Since that transition happened, it hasn't been a very smooth road. There's been some clashing. We don't agree on a lot of things. We have different leadership styles. So that has been challenging. Before I dive into the relationship tension with her colleague, I wanted to take a step back and further understand why Elsie was identified as a high potential leader, and to get a better picture of her strengths. That's where we begin.
So when I was first identified, I think it was mostly the fact that I'm just a very hard worker. And when I say hard worker, It doesn't feel hard to me because I feel like I'm just doing my job and so I was usually the first one to volunteer for special projects, for working overtime, for taking additional shifts in just a staff position.
And that was highly valued at the company that I'm currently in. And so the individual who mentored me recognized that being similar qualities to them, a kind of a kindred spirit, so to speak. convinced me that that was a strong suit and that would do me well in leadership and then from there now that I report to someone else my leader says that I'm very
thorough in what I do. I have a certain level of empathy and I'm an emotional person so I can relate to the staff, but I also can be very objective because i do the research i find all the facts i really get to the bottom of things before i assume anything and
i love to read and study and learn so i've just been continually taking classes and doing other leadership things to try to better myself which has also been recognized like i'm doing the work i'm putting in the work and So far I've been effective and I've gotten much feedback that What I'm doing is good. I don't know that I... feel it quite yet but that's that's kind of where we're at okay i mean it sounds like everything you've mentioned around you know strong work ethic taking initiative
Being able to have the EQ to connect with others while still the objectivity to challenge and draw for results. I mean, that is kind of the things that we look for. foundationally and a leader. And I hear you around having gotten that feedback that you're effective and yet you're saying you don't quite feel it. What is it that you do feel? I feel like I could always do better and more, which I know is silly, and that's a recipe for burnout. Also,
In my work, whether it's normal leadership things or extra projects or whatever that I'm taking on, I always just feel like I am doing my job. I never feel like I'm going above and beyond, and I have a hard time with individuals who... I don't feel like I'm meeting their potential or working to their capabilities because that just seems natural to me. Why would I work any less hard or not use my skills? And apparently that's not as common as I like to think. And so that is something that.
to me it just doesn't feel like extra or above and beyond or anything special because i'm i'm doing the job that i was hired to do and promoted to do okay so on the one hand You feel like you can be doing better or more. And on the other hand, you're feeling like... i'm working to the max that i can is that correct or no like tell me what the i think Well, to be fair, I have a lot on my plate. So I think that is part of it. I feel like I am maxing myself out most days, most weeks.
However, I still have a pile of things that I feel like I will never get to. over time does make me feel like, am I really cut out for this? Can I really keep up with this pace and do this work at even a higher level potentially in the future? Okay, I understand. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I think the more productive you are, right? The more there is to do. Exactly, exactly. So now you're sort of thinking about that next.
and you're sort of thinking about potentially advancing in your leadership journey. You like leading. You think you're pretty good at it. From what I'm told. That's what you're told. Okay. So you think you're pretty good at it and you think you could be doing more. How about that? Yeah. Yes or no? Yeah. Yes. I think that's accurate. I'm not going to tell you. Okay. We're going to go with that for now. I don't know if that's what it is. We'll get there.
And you're trying to figure out how to position yourself for that next step. But there's a bit of a roadblock as you're thinking about that. So tell me about your roadblock. What's going on? Why is it a roadblock? So a little bit more context. There is definitely a... a boys club mentality and some of the opera leadership and so i've found it challenging to find my way into that boys club and And then the individual who I'm struggling with, he has made himself comfortable in that voice club.
And so while I am here doing everything by the book, going through the correct channels of authority if I need something done or approved or whatever, and he just goes right into the owner's office and gets what he wants. Which is frustrating. And so I have some theories as to why that is, but I think my main purpose or goal at this point is how do I rise above that? How do I get to a place where I'm positioned?
to take that next step if and when it becomes available because this Peer is also at a level where he could want to take that next step as well into a role that I would want And I want to, regardless of reasons or personalities, I just want to be able to rise above that and position myself in the best way possible. Okay. So, there's a lot there. There's a lot. I'm sorry. You don't have to apologize.
Right? I mean, deep breath for both of us, right? Let me ask first, because you described it as a boys club. in leadership and in the more senior ranks of leadership and right and like i just want to understand what that actually means in your context because the way i might configure what a boys club is is different than what you might be experiencing. So how are you experiencing what then makes you articulated as a boys club?
Great question. The majority of executive leadership are all male, and so they have their way of doing things, which in my experience and opinion is kind of the old school and all the... the deals made over a drink with with each other with with partners etc and not really allowing others to have any influence over decisions or company direction or anything like that that's shifting But it's still heavily male in those ranks. There are a few of us female leaders.
The way that I feel it the most is I don't hear from any of the executive leadership unless there's a problem in an emergency and then it's like, fix this right now. But even when I'm doing great things, not so great things, I don't hear any feedback and I'm never invited to the table, so to speak, when it comes to the bigger decisions. I'm usually being told this is what's going to happen with your department.
This could just be me feeling like it is a gender issue, but with it being all males at that level and not seeing the female representation like it should be. I think that's a part of it. Okay. And you know, your lived experience is helping you create an attribution as to why these things are. I am not here to say one way or the other, right? Because that would be me projecting my experience on you, and that would not be beneficial for any of us.
What we need to work through is if that's the way you're experiencing it, you know, as there being sort of this gender separation that is causing you to then not be at the table or... not hearing from certain people. We need to then think about what can you do within that context. You've been experiencing this for a while. I'm just curious, like what impact has it had on you? It's very discouraging.
in a couple different ways. So it's discouraging because the individual who I feel is really the biggest roadblock was previously a mentor and I truly wouldn't be where I am in the company today if it wasn't for this person. and so there's guilt around that there's also frustration because I've brought this to my manager's attention, his manager's attention. It's not a secret that anybody is keeping. I'm not keeping it to myself and suffering in silence.
It's very apparent and I've had direct conversations with this individual explaining exactly how I feel, what he's doing, whether he means to or not, this is what's happening and nothing ever changes.
so it is very discouraging and where it gets immensely discouraging is the possibility of a position in the future that there's only one of and at this point in time today it would be between him and i and i i fear that i would not be the first choice because of the way that he leads and the way that he manages has been undermining and kind of overriding my style for so long okay
And look, I want to acknowledge the frustration or the disappointment, as you put it. What's behind the disappointment? What are you disappointed in? So when I say different leadership styles, I can elaborate a little bit. So this individual manages by crisis and I believe enjoys the thrill of fixing the problem, putting out the fire, etc. That drives me crazy and would cause me to burn out very quickly. So I proactively manage and I look at a problem in a bigger picture.
and try to change the policies, the procedures, the resources that caused that problem in the first place so that it doesn't keep happening. Those two leadership styles, also personality styles, are very different. So I'm a little bit more quiet. I like to observe and learn before I speak up.
he likes to walk into a room and be the loudest center of attention person which there's nothing wrong with that but in my experience with this company that is more valued because he's just there and in their face and loud and here's what I did I saved the day I'd fix this problem etc where I'm in the background a little bit more doing great things from what I'm told and from my feedback that I'm getting, but not
Not getting the recognition because I don't want to be the center of attention. That's just not my personality. I'm more of a quiet person that will absolutely speak up. when I need to, but that's not my goal every time I walk into a room. So that's really challenging to have those different leadership styles and be perceived, I think, in different ways. I'm told all the time that I'm quiet.
makes me a little crazy because i'm quiet because i'm observing i'm learning i'm watching and i don't feel like adding bluff to conversations i don't need to pull in a story every time something comes up and just make everything about me or put the spotlight back on me I will absolutely speak up and be very loud if I need to in the right context, in the right setting. I think I fly under the radar and so those upper leadership that really need to be the ones to see what I'm doing.
aren't seeing it. Okay, I understand. And you just said something now, which is you will absolutely speak up and be loud if you need to, which means you have the ability to do it. Right. I do. And maybe I should clarify that a little bit. My personality is not... loud and boisterous and like
over the top all the time. And that's where I think I'm going unnoticed. If I have something to say, if I'm doing a presentation, if I have a concern, I will bring it up and I will speak and I will be very adamant. and very direct i've been very direct with this individual but just on a regular normal day i'm not bouncing all over the place just
I just don't have that level of energy or that type of personality. Yeah. What struck me is when you said, I can do these things if I need to, right? Which is really kind of advocate for yourself. Right. Okay. What makes you feel like you need to do that versus not? I think it's the... recognition that my peer gets that I don't and that to me and my lived experience is because he's
He's loud and in your face. And I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just a personality difference. But for whatever reason, that type of personality seems to get more attention, seems to just... Be at the forefront of everyone's minds. I'm still struggling with Getting a lot of the leadership to understand that that's not his job anymore. It's like, oh no, actually I'm supposed to go to Elsie. And it's so frustrating to have to continuously do that.
I've got some big news to share. I've got a new book coming out. Leadership Unblocked is launching this October with HBR Press, and I can't wait for you to read it. It's filled with insights from my years of coaching executives and a roadmap to help you break free... the mindsets that hold you back from being the leader you want to be. You can pre-order it now. Leadership Unblocked wherever you order your favorite books and you'll be among the first to receive a copy.
When opportunities for next level roles become far and few between, it's natural to feel like competition is brewing with peers who are also contenders. In Elsie's case, that sense of competition is heightened because of the differences in style between her and her colleague whose approach seems to be more valued by leadership. And she feels disadvantaged because she's not part of the boys club, as she puts it.
It's important that when my clients experience being othered that I acknowledge it because it is their experience. And my job is to help them figure out how to operate in that context. And while I can empathize with Elsie and the circumstances she faces, the reality is that you can't always change someone else's behavior or a company culture to get what you want and what you deserve. but you are able to flex your perspective and your approach to align with your end goal.
So with that in mind, I wanted to hone in on what Elsie might want to do to improve her situation as it stands today. And that starts by better understanding the tension she's feeling with her peer. So the question really becomes like, what do you want to do, which is different than what you need to do in this situation? Okay, let's start with the need.
If you were talking to a friend right now dealing with the exact same situation at a different company, what advice would you give them? I would make sure that they've brought it to the correct... attention of management leadership, expressed your concerns. If possible, directly with the individual. I feel like that's probably the most effective. But if that doesn't work, bring in their leader, your leader, go up the route that you need to go.
beyond that that's where i get stuck so i don't know what other advice i would give and those are the things that i've done so i know that it hasn't worked in my situation but i'd like to think if talking with a friend it might and it hasn't worked like what are you using as a metric of whether it's worked or not
I've had the conversations and the ones that are the most frustrating are the ones I have directly with this individual because I feel like at the time when we're speaking, we come to an understanding, we make agreements to communicate better and not try to trip over each other.
And then... few weeks few days later another situation happens where i find out after the fact that that he did something and made a decision or had a meeting without me and didn't invite me when it's 100 within my my umbrella of authority and and not his anymore part of the struggle is yes he used to do this job so i think he feels like he knows better than i do having more experience and having done the same things before
so we don't agree on the way that we go about solving problems and so it just keeps happening there was a situation that happened that was very upsetting and i just brought it right right to him and again we agreed we need to communicate more you know please don't you gotta let go of your old position like just all the same thing all the same words were said and it just i was optimistic but also very hesitant to be optimistic if that makes sense because it's it keeps happening okay
So look, in any given situation, right, you can do nothing, which clearly has not been the way you've approached this. You can try to change the other person, which I think is what you've been trying to do. or you can change your response to the situation, or you can exit the situation. Those are generally ways to think. And by the way, none of those have guarantees. Sure. So you've tried to change how he...
operates. And that doesn't seem to be working. No. So what do you feel you would need to do differently? than what you're doing now in order to be able to attain the outcomes that you want. And before you answer that, I think there's a sub-question that we haven't really clarified, which is, what is the outcome that you want? What is it that you want?
I want to be the first person that comes to the mind of the executive team when, if and when a next level position opens. That I think is my ultimate outcome. I want my resolve. my work ethic to speak for itself, so to speak. And I want there to be no doubt when that day comes, if that day comes that I'm the best qualified for this position. I think I have to change my response to the way that he is behaving. To me that seems...
I have explored the exit option as well. I don't think I'm ready for that. I feel like I have more to give to this company. But I will tell you, if that position opened tomorrow and it went to him, I would... promptly be looking for another position because I would feel very disrespected i think if that were to happen all right so you've sort of thought through you know the if then what because yes i i love that you're saying i have a lot to give this company and
In order to be able to give, there needs to be one that is ready and wanting to receive. I could give a bunch of money out there, and if there's nobody to receive it... the check comes back. Right? That's the way it works. That happened recently. It wasn't a bunch of money, but I was like paying something for my dad and then they sent the check back. And I was like, oh.
i'm ready to give but clearly they don't want it right so what you're saying is you have things that you think are valuable that you want to give the company and there's a possibility Right? That's the reality of it. In an ideal world, they would want it. Sure. The reality of it might be that that's not what they... And I hate that, but that's the way it is. Alright? But we're not there yet. In the meantime, you're saying, okay, like, how do I respond differently?
So that I can show up as the best qualified for this position. So I want you to imagine for a minute that the response is not to this individual. The question is not about how do I make myself, you know, one up this individual. I know that's not the exact words, but like, it's not in response to him. Okay. Okay.
I want you to think about this from the perspective of there is a particular role that I'm interested in. I'm interested in advancing to the next step. And the question really is, What do I need to do in order to be visible and seen as somebody who is qualified for the role in the eyes of the decision makers? of this company
And you know who those decision makers are. I don't know them. Yes. Right? I think I need to make myself more visible. I think I need to invite myself into... some of these offices not in quite the the loud obnoxious way that i i've observed but more of a hey i just wanted to check in and give you an update on this project that I'm working on and I think I need to be much more proactive about that. I think I've been waiting to be invited.
which hasn't worked and i think i just need to insert myself at times i i know all of these individuals i work with them i see them i say good morning to them every day but i'm not having genuine conversations if that makes sense so what you're saying is like in order to be at the table in this particular company right You kind of can't wait to be invited. Yeah. You just have to sort of say, hey, I'm here. Yeah, that's really cool.
What's tough about it? This is where the self-confidence issues start coming. Okay, so tell me more. What makes it tough? You know, everybody is busy, so... i don't think anybody wants those those time wasting conversations And so it's feeling confident enough that I have information that is valuable to interrupt.
whatever a morning email session or something and just go in and say hey can i chat with you for five minutes about this project that i'm working on i wanted you to be aware or here's my progress or here's my struggles Another part that I think I need to be better at is I rely pretty heavily on my direct leader as kind of a bridge in between executive committee and myself.
and i think i need to stop letting her do that so much i think she does it partially to protect me in ways but i also sometimes feel like maybe she doesn't have the confidence in me and if she doesn't have the confidence in me how am i going to have the confidence in myself So I think I need to start proving myself to her in a way as well by just going to some of these decision makers and making myself known.
Okay. I think. None of this is for sure. Nothing is for sure, but we're trying to get there. We're a little more sure than we were a few minutes ago. You sort of brought up two things. One is... Huh, okay, yes, I can, I can kind of go to these meetings, but then, like, what the heck do I... say when i get there right like is it going to be valuable or are people going to think it's a waste of time And then you talked about the fact that a lot of times you're a manager.
for whatever reason, I mean there's a bunch of different reasons why it could be happening, sort of acts as your ambassador, your representative. And therefore, you don't have to show. your face or be the one because she sort of takes it on, right? Let's unpack that a little bit because I think there might be different strategies behind both of those. You know, the first one being, will what I have to contribute be valued? That's what I heard. Is that on point? Yes.
What makes you feel like what you have to contribute would not be valued? I get the feeling that that level of our leadership I don't want to say care. It doesn't always pay attention. to what the individual departments are doing they just want everything to be taken care of so this is what i say when i mean i only hear from them when there's a problem that gets to their level
And then it's an emergency. Fix this right now. This is your responsibility. And that's kind of been the way that I think the company has been managed for quite a long time. And again, the culture is shifting. We're in the midst of a culture shift right now, which is wonderful.
I still get that just nagging feeling in the back of my head that they just don't care as long as I'm taking care of things, which I am. But then I don't hear from them. So it's just this cycle of... do they see me do they not are they recognizing what i'm doing and when i ask my leader she's like yes they recognize what you're doing they appreciate it they know that you're a strong leader it's like i don't ever hear that directly from them to be 100 confident that that's true
So I worry that they don't necessarily care how I'm doing things in my department, just they're getting done. That might be true. They might not care about the sausage making. Right? Like, they've got other things to worry about. Like, they don't really want to know the how. They just want to know the what. Right? Yes, exactly. And so...
Part of this, Elsie, I think is you know it's no different than like if you go present to an audience right like rule 101 of doing a presentation is thinking about your audience and saying why should they Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's not a criticism of you. Right? It's more, oh, okay, yes, I have something to offer. And now I've got to figure out how does that connect to their agenda? Because everybody has different agendas. And that's okay. We all have different agendas.
There is no rule that says, I should care just because. I mean, that would be nice in an ideal world, but we're not there. So in the meantime, I think it's finding that intersection between how you are contributing value and what they care about. And what I hear you saying is, It kind of goes back to the beginning, right? When you said you always feel like there's more that needs to be done. It strikes me that you are defining your value as getting things done.
There's like a productivity element to it, right? Or solving the issue before anybody even knows about it. And what they care about is that the issue is dealt with. Crisis averted. Right. It's not to take away from what you're doing. I just think you need to present it and speak it at their level. which is not in the action steps. It is at the crisis element, whether crisis coming or crisis averted. okay so tell me what you're hearing here
I'm hearing that I need to tailor these conversations to what I perceive them to care about. And I have a couple of ideas around that already. I'm not following the... I tie my value to productivity statement. Can you help me with that one? Yeah, yeah. So when I say that, when I talk about productivity, it's your to-do list, right? Right, right. So what did we do to get to the point where we averted the crisis? So it's starting with the action steps rather than the out.
The outcome is crisis aversion. Okay. Okay. It's not dismissing what was done, but what I'm hearing in terms of what you're saying is important to the senior executives is not so much what did you do to avert the crisis. They're not interested in the to-do list and the action steps. They're interested in the prize at the end. Did we win it or did we not? And so that has to be your starting point. If you want to speak their language.
does that make sense that does make sense yes and the wheel's already turning And by the way, if you had come in today and said, oh, you know, I tend to go in and sort of tell them, oh, it's taken care of. Don't worry about it. And they're like, no, we want to show us the spreadsheet.
and we want to know like what steps you took and did you think about this and we kind of want to get into it and workshop it then it would be the other way around yeah okay they don't want that they don't they don't want another spreadsheet So what I'm hearing is that you're actually adding value in a way that they want, which is you're getting rid of problems, but you're not communicating it in a way that they could understand that that's what you're doing.
for two reasons one is you're not in the room to communicate it yes and two is when you are in the room How are you communicating it? That's the way they want to hear it. And how does that feel for you, that that's the way they want to hear it? Hypothetically, because, you know, they're not in front of me. I can see where it makes sense, especially to someone who has a lot of other departments to manage and a company to run and budgets to figure out.
So I can understand where it's good to just know you have a strong leader leading this department and I just want to know that things are going well. I guess my assumption was that they should notice that and then recognize my efforts. Whereas I think I need to bring it to their attention.
Hey, we've been more productive in this category over the last six months because I've done X, Y, and Z. and make them recognize me that makes sense yeah i mean should they maybe like yeah it would be nice if they did absolutely It would be really nice if they did. And guess what? That's something you'll be able to do for your team members, right? Or when you're in senior leadership, you'll make sure you recognize and point people out. The reality of it is they aren't.
at least from what you've shared. So the choices took, as you said, to sort of sit and wait for them to do that. It's not working. Or... to put it in front of them and then see what happens, right? Do they value it or do they not? Can I ask you a question? And I know you don't know these individuals, but is it? Is it too much to ask? Because, again, I'm being told by my leader that they do recognize and appreciate it. I just don't hear about it. Is it too much to ask them to say hey?
I hear that you think I'm doing a good job or you're telling me now that I'm coming to you that I'm doing a good job. Could you every once in a while check in with me and just say, hey, great job. I see these metrics improved this month or something like that. Or should I just focus on what I can control and what I can do and not even ask the question?
It seems Elsie is frustrated not just by the behavior of her colleague and the tension she feels from it, but also by her own lack of clarity as to whether the higher-ups at the organization recognize her work. It's a common desire to want your work to speak for itself. But the reality is that may not be enough to get people's attention. Sometimes you've got to tell them.
For Elsie, a lack of direct connection and feedback from the leaders of her organization are making it harder to know if what she's doing matters. And therefore, she's questioning whether she matters. We've now reached a point in the coaching session where Elsie has asked me a direct question about what her right next step should be and whether she's overstepping her bounds. But my validating her need to know what to do would not be helping.
So instead, in an effort to have her exercise her own agency, I answer her question with a question and volley the ball back into her court to help her answer it for herself. So let me ask you a question. What is wanting you to want them to take down this shift? Oh. That is a good question. I think it's one of my love languages. I think those words of affirmation really help me. And I think it stems from me being a somewhat more quiet.
i don't want to say closed off but i do my job i do it quietly and i just kind of move on you know i'm not looking for praise and like put me on the billboards all the time but doing that day in day out and working as hard as I do and not having any recognition for that it's just not great but I mean if you think or say that They have no obligation to do that and I need to be the one to come to them and ask for that or present that.
that's reasonable too yeah i mean that's not what i'm saying i'm not saying that they have no obligation i don't know if they have an obligation or not right what i'm saying is they've kind of shown you who they are yeah you know it kind of goes back to One of the greatest wisdom teachers of them all, Maya Angelou, who said, if they show you who they are, believe them. And I know it feels...
i'm looking at your face right it feels icky like we're scrunching up our faces like ah this isn't the way we want it to be and yet it is could you ask them to do that absolutely Does it mean that they will? I don't know. And so I think the question for me is, At this point right now, who do you trust more to get you closer to your goal of getting those words of affirmation?
You going and showing and saying, okay, here's what I did. What do you think? Or are you waiting for them to take the initiative to say, oh, I see what you did. Now let me come and give it to you. I need to go to them and ask for it, essentially, or ask for it by presenting them the information and the outcomes that I've achieved. And by the way, Elsie, I don't think this has anything to do with being loud or quiet. You haven't heard me mention those words at all, right?
I hear them a lot, so I think that's why they're talking right for me. That's how people sort of project things. They like to put things in buckets. Loud or quiet, right? Asking for recognition does not mean being loud. or presenting, advocating, making visible what it is that you do does not equate being loud. It's just showing how you add value and then asking, here's what I did. What do you think about what I did? Yeah, I think I can do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do that. Great.
Right. I think I can do it. I gotta try it first. You can try it. Yes, I can. So that would be going to them. And then there's the second element, which is your manager, who has sort of been your representative, right? Ambassador. And so tell me what you think. could happen in that dynamic that would benefit you more in terms of showing up as being qualified for this next level position? Well, from my conversations with her, she...
She believes I'm already well on my way to positioning myself for that. So I don't know that I feel a roadblock there. I have a great... sponsor in her she though does recognize the executive team just happens to notice other individuals for other reasons more so than me so she's gently told me You need to speak up more, I guess, to put it lightly. But then she also... Like I said earlier, I think she tries to protect me in some ways. Yeah.
I think I might need to be more direct with her and say, I appreciate what you're doing, but I need to let me have the opportunity to say or report some of these things. because I don't ever want to feel like I'm going around her by any means, but she has been wonderfully supportive. So when you have somebody who supports you like that, yes, you go and say, hey, I appreciate what you're doing. And here's how I think you can support me even more.
Okay, she would be open to that for sure. Can we try it? Not sure if it's going to work, right? Because you're basically responding to the advice that she gave you. This is not any different than the conversation we just had about using the language. Okay, something just came to me. You're learning everybody's love languages. Yes. Okay. There's so much. So your love language is, you know, words of affirmation. The senior executive's love language is... Results crisis averted. Yes.
And then your sponsor, your manager, love languages. I want to let you fly, but please be careful. I'm going to try to protect you. And so you have to sort of approach it in that way, right? You're the one who told me that. I've got to be careful up there how things are done but I need to put myself more forward and at the same time you don't want me to get negative results so can we come up with a strategy on how to get me
in front of these folks more. So engage her in the process. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Makes me feel less nervous about doing it. Makes me feel less nervous. Yeah. I'm liking this idea of different love languages. Yeah. I don't think I've ever talked about love languages in the workplace, but here we are. So the question still remains. How do you get your love language met? I think I have to ask for it. I have to be confident and bold enough to ask for it and bring these outcomes and say,
Here's what I did. What do you think? What do you think? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. What do you think? And may I make an additional suggestion? I think you sort of need to give it to yourself. Like more words of affirmation to myself? Okay. What would that sound like? Oh gosh. In this context, that's tough. I think... Allowing myself to feel successful and reflect back on the journey that I've had so far and not always feel like I have to have my eyes on the neck.
project or prize or problem in front of me, just allowing myself time and space to appreciate what I've done and how far I've come and the successes I have had. That's tough. What's tough about it? I don't know where this comes from, but I just feel the need to work. so hard all the time and i don't even know whose approval i'm seeking and i'm not
I think it's mostly internal that I don't know why I can't just appreciate. And everyone outside of me tells me all the time, except for these executives, how well I've done just in life and career and family. And I have such a hard time seeing it myself. I'm not sure why. Yeah. I don't know why either, right? But you've articulated something that's important. And the reason it's important is... Look, where you are in your career and where you're headed, if you can't be your own cheerleader,
Like your colleague over there is. Right? The external words of affirmation become lesser and lesser. Yeah, you're right. So perhaps, perhaps, this is hypothetically, perhaps. The senior executives who are not giving you that are the very situation that you need in order to learn how to give it to yourself. That would help, I think. And to put it into real business terms, right?
This is about, you know, if we go away from the words of affirmation, it's like, do you believe in the value that you bring? You know, can you go to sleep at night and say, yeah, I'm doing a damn good job, right? And I know what I can do. I might not be all the way there yet, but I do believe that I can do it, even though I may not have achieved it. That's heavy stuff. That's heavy stuff. Believe it or not, I've improved my self-confidence. It used to be a lot worse, so it's a work in progress.
I mean, look, I don't think there's a dashboard for confidence right yeah if only there's a pill or something you could take i don't think there's a trophy of like world wins you know i think what you're just noticing is that oh like this me believing in what I'm doing and believing that what everybody else is saying about me is actually true in order for me to be able to go in that room and authentically say it.
Not loudly say it, not quietly say it. If I want to expect it from others, then I need to expect it from myself. That's it. And giving yourself some grace when it doesn't happen. Yeah, that too. I'm very hard on myself. But I loved your suggestion of, yeah, let me take a look at my track record. I mean, when you look at your track record, what story does it tell you? that I started with little to nothing and built
a life, a family, a career that I'm very proud of based on where I came from. And I just forget to sit down and remember that sometimes, I think. I'm always looking for that next prize in the sky. It'll be interesting if I ever do reach a VP level, if that'll be enough for me. Because is that like the top of the mountain or is there more to be? Not sure yet. Not sure yet. I mean, I think that's part of what you need to sit with, right? Is it possible to have it not be one or the other?
Meaning I can look at what I've done and be damn proud about it and say, wow, like, look at where I am. And that VP position looks quite nice. Yeah. Yes, it's that balance. But that VP position doesn't mean that what I have done is not good enough. That is true. so there's something around i think it's it's the conviction right and what's conviction it's belief in what you have done and what you bring to the table yeah
And if you don't believe in what you bring to the table, it's very hard to have others believe it. In your case, I think they believe it. You're just not hearing it back, but that might just be a... I don't know if that's a function of you. Probably not, but it doesn't help me when I don't hear it. Okay. So I need to ask for it.
and i do think that might help me in my own self-confidence journey because if i have to present it then i have to think about it and have to make make a case for why this was successful and I was responsible for it. I think I'm focused daily on just the next.
crisis that i have to solve yeah of course because those wins just aren't you know it's like great i succeeded and i gotta move on to the next one because it keeps you from being able to sit and say oh wow what i've done is actually pretty good yeah You know? I would suggest that there's an and here. It's not one or the other. And in the spirit of the and,
I think there's a both, yes, and I'm not going to say, oh, no, no, no, you shouldn't want to get recognition from others. I mean, you work with others, right? So you're going to do that as. And it's very interesting to me that you used the word self-confidence because there's the word self. Self-confidence has nothing to do with anyone else.
I'm not in a position where I can unpack that for you because that's not my profession. I'm working on it, I promise. And that's fine, right? It's the awareness around it and how it's playing out in this form. So, very interesting that for some time we haven't even talked about the person who shall not be named. I was hoping that would happen, to be honest. Because that's what I need to do, is I need to...
Let him be him. Do what I do best. And as we talked about, I just need to be more vocal about it. not worry about what's going on in the background or behind my back i guess yeah so that's the rising rising above yes right that's ultimately what i need to do all right so i feel like you have some action steps i absolutely do okay so i think we can wrap it up so tell me how are you feeling now versus how you felt when we first got started I'm feeling much more optimistic.
And I have a plan, which I love planning. So having a plan really helps me. And I love that most of our conversation did not focus around an individual. It's really about me. and what I need to do to reach the level that I'm looking for. So I'm much more optimistic. I mean, at the end of the day, that's all we have control over. Right. Really? To a certain extent, even. Right? Is ourselves. Yeah.
And so I think whenever you're feeling stuck in the future or you're coming back to this frustration, the disappointment I actually think what would be helpful for you is to sort of take that moment and say, how can I express the love language that I feel like I'm missing from others to myself? Okay.
in whatever way you need to and that's bringing that'll be bringing it back to you thank you for giving me the opportunity to use love languages and coaching for the first time i honestly use that a lot and i think about it a lot I mean, in management, you know, you can't manage everybody the same. You have to speak to what speaks to them. So, absolutely. Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. This has been wonderful.
By the end of our coaching conversation Elsie realized that rising above the competition within herself was essential to navigating the dynamics with her peer and senior leadership.
Sometimes, in fact most times, the roadblocks we face are meant to teach us the very thing we need to learn to be able to get ahead. In Elsie's case, Knowing that she's doing good work and yet not getting that recognition from leadership that she feels she needs was an opportunity to explore what it means to lead herself. This would require her to acknowledge and recognize the values she brings and thereby building her own self-confidence first, before asking for it from others.
That is not to say that recognition from others is not important. Of course it is. But there's a difference between needing it to make you feel confident versus wanting it because you feel worthy of it. And that small nuance can make all the difference in how you advocate for yourself, regardless of your style and the circumstances around you.
That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time... I'm experiencing something that I would call like dual leadership challenge. I am internal manager. My company has an external agency to complete the project. This agency has a very skilled and really great product lead, who is basically in the same role as I am.
to misunderstandings. If you'd like to join my community for exclusive live discussions, apply to be on the show, or sign up for email updates, head over to murielwilkins.com You can also pre-order my new book, Leadership Unblocked, wherever you get your favorite book. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins and Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins. Before you go, though, I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders,
It would mean the world to me if you could go to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to subscribe to the show and leave a five-star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. Thanks to my producer. music composer Brian Campbell, my director of operations, and the entire team at HBR.
much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I'm Uriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.