Well, this is a big one Rock and Roll Hall of Famer and Wilson of heart is here on the show today. She is a true legend and a class act. Very humble. We only have 30 minutes together and I started out a little bit clumsy in this one, but I think we got a good rapport going. And she seemed to open up about a lot of great stuff, including playing high school dances in the early days.
her friendship with Jerry Cantrell from Allison chains and singing on their SAP EP talks about women in music, how she stays humble, and of course her new solo record fierce bliss. Stay right there okay, well welcome in Wilson from heart. It's exciting. I think we have a mutual acquaintance actually, uh, my brother's wife sister is married to the lead singer of train who I think you have worked with a little bit in the past. Right. Pat Monahan?
Yes, yes, we did do his show together. Yep.
Are you guys like just some more of acquaintances? Not good friends.
Right. We work together on a concert in Seattle, where Hart was playing and he was a special guest.
Is that the one with an it had Sammy Hagar and Richard marks the holiday one.
Yeah, it is. Okay.
Yeah, that's cool. See you because I you grew up in Bellevue, and I grew up next door in Issaquah. Yeah. Yeah. But now you live in Florida and I live in Phoenix. We both left for better weather.
Yes, we did. We did. We finally got sick of it moved.
Exactly. So it's funny though. Every time I go back, it's like my office. I'm gonna see my friends and family. But there's always like, I always have to get Taco Time. Is there something like that for you? Or when you go back to Seattle, or a restaurant or bar or landmark that you have to go to before you see your friends and family?
Oh, yeah, there's a there's a restaurant there called the pink door. That Oh, yeah. I just loved that place. And it's been there forever.
Is that the one I'm trying to always mix that up with the red door. There's two of them. The pink doors up the one that goes kind of downstairs?
Yeah, it's a you enter through a back alley. And yeah, it's very cool. It's really tucked away.
Yeah, don't don't say. It's not that they have like a stage or something. They have like kind of shows too, sometimes.
No, you're thinking of the triple door.
That's three different ones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Um, okay, well, so yeah, so we'll get to the new album. But I do want to talk about some of the old stuff too, if that's okay. Sure. Sure, sure. Okay, um, so yeah, so growing up in Seattle before the band was called heart. I mean, how long did it take before you started making money? Because I heard you say you didn't make money. And so like 70 was at 7475.
Yeah, we didn't even really make any money at the beginning. Our first album, dreamboat any came out in 1976, I believe. And we didn't see anything from that at first, because everything went back into equipment and getting our thing set up to roll. You know, I think the first money we really saw was around the little Queen time. The second third album, we started to see checks, you know?
Oh, really that long? Yeah.
Yeah. Well, look at it this way. The artist is on the bottom of the totem pole. I mean, everybody else gets paid first. And then if there's anything left, the band gets to split it up, you know. And that's, that's basically how it was.
That's crazy. I just love that you just kept going because you said you're not you weren't in it for the money. You were in it for the glory.
Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And that was way more satisfying than then on a creative level than just making money for it, you know? Yeah.
And in those early days, I thought this was interesting that you you guys played high school dances. Was that when it was still called heart or was that when it was called? Hocus Pocus or?
Well, hocus pocus mostly played in clubs. And then when we went up to Vancouver, and we became hard again. Yeah, we played a lot of school dances and graduations and things like that up in Vancouver and in Alberta and Saskatchewan and stuff. We just started getting in the van and heading out you know, and we get we played a lot of that. The first we played a dance in North Vancouver, where I met What's his name? The actor. He's a Canadian actor who now has MS. Michael J. Fox. Oh,
yeah. He was the he was the student union president. And he was just a little kid. He was there and introduced himself and everything and, and I remember thinking, wow, this, this kid's gonna go somewhere. He's got it all together.
That's before he was on family ties and stuff.
Oh, yeah. Long before he was just a high school student then. Wow. Did
you think he remembers that? Because that's what I wondered. I was like, I wonder if there's people that look in their high school yearbook and they're seeing a picture of the high school dance. I'm like, wait a minute. Is that hard playing my high school dance?
Right. Yeah. I'm still trying to get my There we go. That's, that's better. Yeah.
Anyways, yeah, I just I thought that was interesting that if people went through their old yearbooks and saw you guys at their dance, that would be amazing. Yeah. There must have been somebody out there saw you guys and thought, this band's really good. I think they might make it.
Yeah, well, we kept getting us back, you know, like, it must have been something we were doing that, that got people off because we, after a point, we didn't have to search for gigs. They just started coming in, you know?
Yeah, no, and it's just cool. I love seeing the evolution of whether it's a band or someone's acting career, all that stuff is so cool to see where they start at the bottom, and then they just work their way up. It must have been sorry, no, go on your.
I was gonna say, Yeah, because that's how that's how young musicians form their thing. Whatever the thing is going to be is by playing and playing and playing in every place you can possibly play and learning things and making mistakes and fixing them and getting better and better. And I don't think that that's as prevalent today. I think a lot of people plan for an audition, like, on the voice or something
one of those shows. And if they do well there, then they their careers kind of launched but they don't really have a unique individual sound, you know,
right. Or they think if it's not the voice, it could be Tik Tok, or YouTube. And because that happened so often now, it's like, you've launched one tick tock, and it goes viral. And now you're, you're a big star,
right? Yeah. For about 10 seconds.
Well, yeah, and especially, I mean, to actually be a musician and to write songs. I think that's the thing. I mean, there's so many people that can sing, but I feel like writing songs. That's the harder part of being a musician, isn't it?
Well, to come up with something original. Yeah, it's, it's not easy, because there's so much saturation of millions and millions of songs now and artists. And as Bob Dylan once said, everything's been done. It's just a matter of doing it slightly differently, you know? So coming up, coming up with something original is difficult, for sure. But worth right, writing for.
Yeah, well, and back. And I'm sure you've probably talked about these songs a million times, but crazy on you. I think that when I started this research for the interview, I was like, I gotta listen to some old heart. And I was like, that song. It's still just stands up so well. And can you explain the story of how you guys wrote it? Because I only heard part of it that Nancy was sick. And you wrote the lyrics first. But then how do you splice that acoustic intro with
the riff? Because it just it comes together so beautifully.
Um, the the riff came kind of last. Huh? I had the words in there complete forum. Nancy came up with the chords, the chord progression. And then once we had all that we needed one more little piece of spice. And so Roger Fisher came up with the thing. And okay. And then it was there, you know, it just kind of said, hello.
It's crazy how that stuff just fits together. So well, different things that you wrote this part. And somebody else wrote, the other part is just amazing that, but it all works together perfectly.
Yeah. And that's one good thing about being able to be in the same room. And just like sit around in a circle and go, how about this? How about this? No. How about this, you know? And I think when people start, like they do today, so much the time because the pandemic and Demick if they're just sending files around and digitally and then getting back this big mountain of everybody else's ideas to plow through. It's missing some kind of real vitality. And right, yeah,
there's good and bad because on the one hand, I mean, you got smaller artists who, you know, don't have the money to fly, but they can work with somebody in Europe and Seattle. But then at the same time, it's like you said, then you're also missing that connection, personal connection of being in the same room.
Yeah. Sometimes it works for some people. It's, that's never worked for me yet. But, you know, hopefully, we're at a point in the pandemic journey where we won't have to do that much anymore. I mean, you can find a way to get together with musicians, and actually be and make something together and look in each other's eyes.
Yeah, I love it. That's great. Well, so when you all you had all that early success in the 70s, did you feel justified like you had? Did you feel like you had the glory? At that point? It was this, like, the happiest you've ever been in your life? Or was there still feeling like something was missing?
Well, I, it was pretty glorious. At first, because nothing had gone wrong. Like everything was just completely Forward. March, and we had like a five year plan of how we were going to do this thing. And get from zero to maybe a gold record, you know. And, I mean, that was the goal. And to play, the more and more shows bigger and bigger shows and just develop it. And so yeah, it was really exciting.
And I think that because we were a rock band fronted by two women, there was a particular interest interest given to us given to us at that time. A lot of people asked us the question that's impossible to answer. And it was, what's it like being a woman in rock, you know? Well, what's the answer that? I don't know? I don't know. Because I've never been in anything else. I can't.
Right. One thing that's intriguing to me about that is, you know, I talk I interview all these musicians and rock stars. And of course, they all have, like, you know, their little groupies and their fans and stuff. And I was thinking about that. It must be weird as a woman, because you must have like some male admirers and that but that's such a different you know, relationship. You have to have these male admirers. I mean,
it's, it's Pro. I know, the way I hear women talk about they're not as flattered by some of their more like, annoyed by that.
Yeah. Well, well, I never was an annoyed because I don't take fans for granted whoever they are. But I don't think women received the same kind of groupie attention in terms of sexual exploitation and stuff like that. They don't receive that as well. But I think if you look at men admiring you and find something wrong with that, and annoying about it, you're, you're taking a lot for granted there.
That's, that's a good perspective to have. Absolutely. I love that. And, okay, so, you know, going through your career, we don't have time to go through the whole thing. But the 80s That was a fun time. I mean, I was a kid. So a lot of those songs, you know, having nostalgia thing to me, but I but you don't play a lot of those in concert now.
Yeah, I don't feel that a lot of those sons really stood the test of time. A few of them did like these dreams and alone. And what about love and maybe? Yeah, those types of ones were good songs. They were well written. And they could have been done by anybody and been hits, you know, and still been around 35 years later, 40 years later, but a lot of them were just given to us from this sort of La songwriter pool. And that's what the record company wanted at that time. So we did
it. And there are a lot of songs that I couldn't, that couldn't keep me interested, you know, that they didn't hold me, you know, this wasn't enough substance for me.
Yeah, it's always interesting to think, like, what if you guys would have said, you know, screw you, we're gonna keep because the songs that you guys wrote are the classics, like, the ones that are in all the movies and TV shows? I don't think any of those 80s ones are in it's always like, the stuff from the 70s that you guys.
That's yeah, that's right. And we knew that back then. I mean, we didn't know about the movies and all that kind of stuff. But we did know that the stuff that we had written was the stuff that we fit the best with. And that lit up the best when we didn't you know? Yeah, we sounded okay when we did nothing at all and those types of songs, but it wasn't really hard, you know,
right now it's different. And then, of course, the music scene changes again, the 90s and then there's the whole Seattle thing which is really cool that you're kind of a part of that right. I mean, explain to me how you guys are I don't I don't think Nancy was just us saying on the Allison chains SAP EP. That was before they had really blown up, so how did that come about?
Well, um, Jerry Cantrell and I had become friends. I think we met at a party and we just hit it off. We were joking around, and it was a house party over a weekend. And everybody else had was a big, wild fun party, everybody else went to bed, crashed out, and he and I stayed up and cleaned up the house all night long. And we're just joking around and happy. And it was at Nancy's farm where we had a bunch of
horses. And so Jerry and I ended up taking stuff from the vegetable platter down to the horses, you know, at five in the morning and stuff. It was just really a fun time and our friendship was cemented. And so then, when Alice was going to go in the studio, and they were working on that record, he just thought I mean, he said, Come on in, you know, we could use a super high voice. So I did and they're like brothers now, you know, I mean, they're really good people.
That's so cool. It's interesting to think of Jerry Cantrell joking around because like the music is of Allison chains. A lot of it is so dark, but
he's hilarious. It says Mike, is they all are but especially Jerry and Mikey are just, they could have been stand up comics, you know.
Really? I got to get those guys on my show someday. Yeah. Yeah. So and the mike Inez was in heart for a little while. It's
kind of cool. Yeah. He was in for at least a year. Yeah. And we turned all over. We went to Yeah. Well, and
then you performed with Jerry at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Yes. I want to ask you about this. This is kind of cool. This is a Dolly Parton was nominated for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. She turned it down. Because she's like, Look, I'm not rock. I'm country. What are your thoughts on that? I wanted to get your opinion.
I thought that her response was beautiful. She She doesn't need to freeload on another genre. I mean, she's, she's totally cool for doing that. As far as I'm concerned. The Rock Hall is becoming less and less about rock. And I just thought that her response was perfect. And she doesn't. She maybe has some loose talk about making rock and roll album. But I don't know she is country. She's 100% Through and Through country. And yeah, that's what's
so cool about her. You know, she's just one of a kind.
Yeah, people love that. That she said that. And I thought maybe I think that's confusing, cuz I feel like the rock and roll thing. They should really just call it the Pop Music Hall of Fame. Right? Yeah, that's, I think that would be make more sense. That's what it is now. Yeah. So you write your songs in these. Your pet? You still do a pen and paper in a notebook?
I do. Yeah. Yeah. So what happened
to all these? Do you keep all these notebooks? Like, I mean, there's got to be some of those. That'd be worth a lot of money if they're if you know, like, that's like a really cool artifact to have the original lyrics to some of these classic songs.
Yeah, I know. And I haven't been really that responsible about preserving the old ones. You know, like, I don't know where they are. I think maybe Michael Fisher has some of them and I've just got the ones from the last 20 years.
Well, that's still very cool, though. But yeah, I just thought though, that'd be interesting to see the original, like, handwritten lyrics to some of the songs that's that's pretty amazing. Well, so you're using this on the new album. This is how you wrote the new album fierce bliss. I love this title. comes out April 29. The first thing I heard was the missionary man. And I love this is a great song to cover. This is a rhythmic song, right? Yeah,
yeah. Yes. I'm listening to the song and I'm going wow, this guitar. This guitar solo is really good. Who? Who played the guitar? It's Kenny Wayne. Shepherd. Yeah. How did that come about?
Yeah, it's it's uh, he's a good guitar player.
He's got a future I can hear
yes, he does. Um, yeah. Kenny Wayne and I have a have an attorney in common. And it was this guy this man's idea for us to pair up and I had never met Kenny Wayne before and he came into the session for bridge of size and missionary man and once again we just hit it up he's really great down to earth human and then went and just nailed it played his butt off you know it was great.
Yeah, you know what I love about the sound so when I when I think and Wilson solo album I was thinking more like a Eric Clapton acoustic Tears in Heaven. This thing? No, it's like this. You have some rockin songs on it and then even the some of the slow songs, they're still kind of heavy, and they have like a dark vibe. And so moment in heaven, I think that's
one of my favorites. And this is about, I had to look this word up anti Hollywood, screed, screed thing I didn't ever say I didn't know what that word was, I had to look it up, explain to my audience what screen is coming up, and they don't know.
Oh, it's, it's it's just like, event. And when you just go off on something, and in words, you know, and you just, you just go, well, here's what this is. And here's what I think about it, you know? Yeah, it was, I couldn't resist taking a poke at the Hollywood starmaker machinery in that school.
And what it did, so what do you think about the Hollywood has things changed? In your lifetime over? I mean, it seems like things have are different, at least I don't know if it's like where you want it to be? Or what do you think about that Hollywood Star Maker?
Well, I think that the rules are still the same. They're the only thing that's changed is that there are a whole hell of a lot more women involved. But they still have to follow the rules. You know, they have to, they have to be at least triple threats, they have to be able to sing. Like Christina Aguilera, they have to be beautiful. They have to be able to dance and wear little skimpy costumes and be super hyper sexy. You know. So see, not that much has changed in
that regard. But I think it's, it's a good start that there are so many women who are being allowed to do it. Now. When I first started, it wasn't like that at all. It was just women were more or less like a novelty. And on the radio, which was our main source of music in those years. They wouldn't play more than one female artists in an hour. Just because I guess it was too distracting. Something like that. You had to be either a folk singer or a Disco Diva
type. And that was it. I mean, those were the two customs you can wear and get. Get played.
That's fascinating. Yeah. Because I, I guess I never like really thought of that. But I don't I don't remember that in the 80s. And I never counted like, you know how many women and stuff but no, that makes there wasn't definitely not a lot of female rock. I think that's what's so interesting. And, you know, I hope there will be more of that, because it seems like a lot of females go the pop route. But I like Aaron chemos rock.
Yeah, it's, it's tricky. Because rock was a form that was invented and perfected by men, right? To sort of suit their masculine, more aggressive nature and more more out there. They can get Wilder and more vulgar. And it's still cool. You know, women have to invent their own parallel universe when it comes to rock and some of them are like, Lizzy Hale, I think does it? I think Billy Eilish is
doing it. There are some examples of women who are really making rock their own and not just trying to jump on the back of a male form.
Do you have any interest in taking someone under your wing? That's like mentoring or Judas? Are you too busy with your own career and stuff to do that?
Well, yeah, I am pretty. I'm super busy. And I think if I had a lot more time, I would definitely do that. Because I see so many. Like watching YouTube, I see so many young women and I just have things to say to them. I'll be yelling at the screen. Like, don't do that. Or hey, that was great. You know.
Be funny if you commented, and like Ann Wilson comments on your YouTube video and people like Yeah, right. Okay, like fake and Wilson, but it was really you
don't do the dog whistle you know.
Okay, sorry, back to your album. Black wing. That's another cool song. This has almost like a an Allison chains like vibe to me. And this was this was kind of about the lockdown. Is that what's going on with the song?
Yeah. It most of the songs on this record that I wrote were written during the pandemic left in 2020, and 21 and black wing, like I live in a big river now. And so for months and months and months, I was just looking out the window at the river and great big seabirds flying over the river, the big wingspans and stuff. And I just thought, I guess I started talking to them because they were so free. And I felt almost envious, that they're the free beings now and I'm stuck in
Excel. So So that's where black wind came from.
So when you write a song like that, is that cathartic? Then you kind of get that those feelings out? Or does it just take you deeper into that feeling locked down and trapped?
Oh, no, you definitely get them out. It's like singing the blues or anything else that they make you feel better about your problem? Because you've actually made some progress on putting it out. unpacking it, you know? So yeah, I felt I felt better after Blackwing.
When What about fighting for life? Because that's another dark song. And I didn't see anything in the notes about from your publicist about that one. Is that a personal story? Is that a fictional thing? What is it? It's that's a really cool song.
Thank you. No, that's a that's a real life person that I know who happens to be the person that I'm married. And when we first met, I never met anyone like him, because he's so full of life and so vital, and just, if he's asleep, he feels guilty. He wants to always be awake and be living it just to, you know, 150%. And so, I just had to write a song about him because he's, he's kind of tall and gangly and moves slow. And there's this whole thing about him. He's very spiritual person.
He's really sort of lit up. And still, even though he's got all this life energy. Yeah, that's a real life. Person.
That's so that's really cool. I didn't, I didn't know that. Okay, that's let's see, I'm so bad at like literary things. I thought it was maybe about somebody fighting for life on like, life support or something. No, I'm terrible at literary. I got a C plus in English Lit. So that's why I need to ask you these questions.
That's okay. I enjoy explaining them. You know, I mean,
what is your what does your husband do? If that's not too personal? Was he in the entertainment business?
He, he is and that He supports me big time. And he really helps me with my career. I bounce ideas off him all the time. And he makes things happen, you know, like, like, practical things happen that I can't get my mind around. Like, how do we get all this gear from here to there? How do we he has a great head for publicity timing, and, but he is not a musician. And what he does is he loves to build things like design and build things. And he he has done all this work on our
house. And he totally renovated this other house that's on our property from 1910. And then I'm, I'm going to open a shop down in the village where we live. And now he's working on renovating that before we open and so he's he's always got his finger in at least 10 pies, you know.
So if it's you and your husband, and your sister, Nancy, and Cameron Crowe, the four of you sitting together at a dinner, would people just be blown away by these deep intellectual philosophical conversations? Or is it more just like pass the butter? And like, those kinds of typicals conversations?
Well, it'd be both, I think. But I think that Dean and Cameron would, would get along extremely well, because they're both just so highly intelligent, just brainy people, you know, super brain people. Nancy, and I probably would be sitting back in awe. At their deficit, that's,
that's interesting that you say that you seem so grounded. I listen to all these interviews with you. And I just go, I'm just like, so shocked that I'm like, Wait, that's Ann Wilson. Like, one of the greatest rock singers of all time. I don't sense any ego or diva, or you just seem so grounded. How do you stay so grounded like that?
Um, interesting question. I think that, you know, I just don't believe all, I don't believe the hype. I don't believe my answer.
You're in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Like I hear these interviewers, and, and they're interrupting you, and you're like, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm like, I'm getting mad for you. I'm like, You should tell that interviewer to fuck off like you're an Wilson. Well, you know, so. It's interesting. You're so nice.
Some of them are pretty, uh, pretty intrusive in a weird way. Or they don't want to talk about anything. On a higher level, they just want to talk about the old days or, or what went wrong and how how did you feel you know, stuff like that? It's more sleazy. But yeah, I don't know. I just don't believe. Like I said, I don't believe my hype.
Well, I guess that's working because you're making amazing music. And so I can say that it's amazing for you. So you know, I think that sounds better than you saying. It's amazing.
Thank you. I think so too.
I know you got to get going here. But quick when you do those solo shows, I thought this was interesting. You do a cover of 6am the song permission. And I was trying to figure out I was try Googling, like, why is this? You know, is there a story behind this? I'm a huge Motley Crue and Nikki Sixx fan. So how did this come about?
Well, it came about because I had been listening to the heroine diaries, the 6am album, which I think is great record. And that song just kept coming back to me, like, so many people have problems that they are totally mired in, and they can't seem to get out of you know. And it's almost like they construct this drama for themselves. That's like quicksand. And it's almost like, they don't want to get out of the problem. They can't think.
Because they and so that song was saying, you have to give yourself permission to walk out of a situation, whether it's a relationship or a problem, or in that case, an addiction. Like the 6am record. It's just I just thought it was a great song about empowerment.
That's awesome. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Well, I hope you guys are gonna be you're doing a solo tour. I see some dates. Hopefully, you'll come to Phoenix or I might have to make a drive to Vegas or going to Vegas, or I know you're doing kalff la or something. Right?
We are we're doing two nights at the El Rey, I think we are doing some stuff in Vegas later on in the year. Yeah.
Okay. I'll have to check that out. I know, I gotta get going. I always end each episode promoting a charity of the guest choice. I know, You've promoted Crohn's because I think your son has Crohn's and music cares. I don't know if there's one of those two, or there's another charity you want to give a shout out to.
Um, I would rather give a shout out to Planned Parenthood. Okay, that's, that's a real good one.
Yeah. Okay. I will put that in the notes along with your website that people can buy the new album fierce bliss. It's April 29th. I believe. I think that's what I said. Yes, that comes out. So if they have a few extra bucks, I can throw it the other way. And in check your website for tourdates. Thank you. All right. Thank you. And that was a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me. All right. Appreciate it. Goodbye. Okay, so Planned Parenthood.
Funny story about that. I remember in high school, my friend would go there to get condoms, because he was too cheap to buy his own and they would have free condoms. So thank you Planned Parenthood for preventing him from procreating. That was probably a good thing. And of course, thank you to Ann Wilson, for taking the time to come on my show. Make sure to again to check out her new record fierce bliss. It's out April 29. Or it may already be out if you're listening past
that date. And of course, make sure to check out her website and it's in the show notes for current tour dates and news and all that good stuff. And if you want to support my show, your likes, comments, shares on YouTube and social media all that stuff helps me out a lot. And of course, make sure to subscribe to the show wherever you watch or listen to get notifications for future episodes. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen or
watch. Have a great rest of your day and remember to shoot for the moon.