Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. We have heard this word narcissism. We've heard the word narcissist, but did you know that it's also a personality disorder. Yes, a person can be diagnosed by a psychiatrist and it is called narcissistic personality disorder. Well, we are going to find out so much more on this upcoming episode of Checking In. Everybody today is a
great day. It's a great day, first of all because guess what, we are alive, We are present, we are breathing, and we have another day to check in. The Explore page on Instagram is amazing because when someone posts thing that gets a lot of engagement and attention, it pops up. And I'm so glad that doctor Jamie Zuckerman is one of those folks who popped up on my feed. Started
following her instantly. She's probably like, what in the world, Yes, yes, yes, She's a nationally known expert on narcissism, a narcissistic abuse relationship coach, and licensed clinical psychologist, and appears as the go to expert for local Philadelphia Fox, CBS, ABC and more. Please welcome doctor Jamie Zuckerman to Checking In.
That was a heck of an introduction.
Listen, my folks, Honey, Angela and Samantha here at checking In. We do not play about our guests.
I want to come on here every day and here.
We'll give it to you. We'll copy and paste it so the next time you go someplace they have this same introduction. You said, you've been sick.
It was some weird viral vocal I don't even know what it was, but it was. It was. It was bad. It was bad.
Were you about to say vocal paralysis?
They didn't say that specifically, but it was some nerve damage like within my throat muscle tip. But for me not to be able to talk, I mean, I'm sure some people were thrilled, but it was really frustrating because I couldn't do my work. So you know, I'm sure my kids were happy, but it was it was a real pain. So slowly started to come back, but it was it was.
It was nuts. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
Thank you.
Like you said, I mean, we use our voice for a living, yeah, so when we can't use it for one reason or another, especially sickness, that can definitely have an effect. You know, how did you go through that. You're a psychologist, You're a mental health expert, so I'm definitely going to ask how are you, as an expert handling something that could literally have a person going going to a depression or an anxiety fit, panic attack, anxiety attack.
Absolutely had anxiety about this, not gonna lie. I think, you know, I look at it kind of as it's it's a normal response to a very abnormal situation. You know, I think it would be weird if I wasn't anxious about it, to be honest with you, because in my head, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I have to cancel patients, I have to cancel appearances, and what if I do it? But then my voice just checks out right in the middle of it, because that's what would happen. So yeah,
it was very anxiety provoking for sure. And then you feel guilty because you know, you schedule all these things and you have to cancel on people, which I hate canceling on people. You know, everybody works hard, everybody changes their schedules. So yeah, it's stressful for sure. So anxiety absolutely one percent.
Doctor Jamie, Thank you so much. For saying that anxiety is a normal response to something abnormal.
Oh yes, yes, And.
Then secondly you said you would have been concerned if you didn't have anxiety. Yes, I want to park there for a minute. So when a person feels like they didn't have anxiety to something that they should normally have anxiety with, what would you say is going on with that person?
So I think anxiety gets a bad reputation, so I'll start with that. You know, if we didn't have anxiety, you and I would cross the street and not look both ways. We just wouldn't think too, we wouldn't care to. So anxiety keeps us safe, It motivates us, It gives us information about our world. Too much anxiety can be debilitating. But no anxiety at all when it probably would make sense to can give us this kind of numbness or
this apathy not caring. Really, So if it was something significant and somebody wasn't anxious and it wasn't just that they had really really solid coping skills, I would look at it as avoidance. What are they not really dealing with to allow themselves to sit with that discomfort? Are they doing something to avoid that discomfort? And that's when they like overworking comes in or drinking or you know that kind of stuff to avoid what's really going on.
Yes, yes, I know men in particular, someone I know, you know, suffered something very traumatic and they've just been working, working, working, working, working, work and working, and they don't like to say if you say how you're doing, they're not going to say, you know, I'm a little anxious because they believe that you're bringing something into existence. That's right, but it's a normal thing. I get what they're saying. They want to stay in that positive mind.
Oh so sure we all do, of course. But I look at it like this. I look at it as like a wave. Right. So if you're in the ocean and you see a wave coming, no matter what you do, that wave is going to crash, right, no matter what you do. So you have two choices. You can stand there and be prepared for it to wash over you. Put your feet in the ground, stand as you know, tall as you can, you know it's coming, Let it
wash over you and then it's gone. Or you can stand there with your hands against it, struggling with all your might, using up all your energy, ignoring all the stuff you need to do, ignoring your likes, your family, whatever, exhausting yourselves, and it's gonna knock you over anyway. And it's gonna knock you over, and you're gonna tumble, and it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder to get up than if you stand there and let it kind of crash over you. So either way, you're gonna
feel it. It's just a matter of how you want to feel it.
That's so good, doctor Z. Yesterday I slammed my hand in the door. Oh and could you imagine if I tried to act like it wasn't throbbing it it's swollen. I even thought it was disfigured a little bit, but I think it was just because it was swollen. But if someone were to ask me how you're doing in that moment, I've gotta be like, my head isn't pain, that is throbbing versus oh, I'm good, everything's fine right now.
There are people who are we really ready for that answer though my hand is throbbing, I'm in a lot of pain because some people don't know how to handle that real truth. We are accustomed to the high pitched Oh no, I'm okay, everything's fine, correct, and then that other person goes on about their business. It's right, you know, versus like if I really say, my hand is throbbing and I'm in pain, I'm curious to like what that other person's response would be to my immediate pain. So yeah, yeah.
I mean, and I feel like too with that. It depends on who's around you. If it's somebody that knows you well, you know, and they know that you need help, they'll they'll maybe keep pushing you to get it right,
they won't let you go there. But if it's somebody who doesn't really know you, and you're giving out this vibe that you're good, you don't need anything, you're great, you're not going to get the help and it's probably difficult for you to, you know, for people to ask for help, but then you become more isolated.
It's so good, that's so good. We have had another doctor or two we've discussed narcissism on checking in, but you know, it's good to go deeper and deeper, especially with someone where yes, you are a licensed clinical psychologist, but you decided you're kind of just this is your specific area of expertise in practice MM hmm.
I mean I still obviously see people with anxiety because you actually comes from that. Yeah, okay, it's kind of hard to separate the two.
Okay, So relationship issues, depression, other mood disorders. You also, in private practice still see people that are that grief loss exactly.
Okay, Yeah, but this has kind of become Yeah, I guess a bit of a specialty over the years. So it's fascinating. I think it's and I think it's very much needed. I'll say, okay, okay, yeah.
Is it from personal experience or was it a lot of core people coming to you and you're like, there's a common thread of about twenty people I'm seeing that are dealing with.
Yeah, ah, okay, So it was a combination of things. One was and we went into private practice many years ago. I would see this this pattern exactly like you said, this pattern of people mostly women that I was seeing at the time, but men also coming in with this same almost blueprint of relationship issues, and you know, and I would listen to it and I would hear it, and you could tell it was narcissism. But in our minds, the way we were training narcisism is so rare. It's
so rare, it's like such a small percentage of the population. However, it's also because nobody with narcissic personality sort of steps foot in treatment raally maybe one percent. They never really make change, even if they go to therapy. It's extremely short lived. The change is very is very minimal, and
so the patterns just keep going and going going. So I was seeing a lot of women who are experiencing these relationships, and then I just started kind of getting into it a little bit more on Instagram and on social media, and the feedback I was getting was one of like like a oh my god, this is my life, Thank you so much. And I realized how many people this story they felt like was theirs. It was the
same story with different people. And then I personally, my closest, closest friend at this time was going through a divorce with somebody who was a narcissist, and I unfortunately had a front row seat to it, and it was absolutely
it was horrifying. And so I think that coupled with that and the social media awareness of it, it just really kind of grew from there and I realized that, you know, one of the things that was missing was almost this preventative medicine in a sense that once you're in it, it's really tough to get out of it, and it's a different type of focus. But if we can get the information out there to prevent people from getting in it in the first place, yes, then I
feel like we really can make some change. So that's where that started.
That's so good. And because we're hearing this, are people using the word wrong yes.
Okay, yes all the time? And infurious name.
Now what okay? You can either answer one of them. What is a narcissist or what is narcissism? Which one is best to answer.
So narcissism can be like, you know, people have narcissistic traits. Let's say, so you know, sometimes let's say you're in your area of expertise whatever that may be, right, like if you're an athlete or you're a teacher or whatever it is, in those moments like you know what you're doing, you're in charge, you got it together, like you you're the expert, and so you're Narcissistic traits not bad, just they come out more it's what makes you kind of
motivated and good at what you do. The difference is that when you're doing something that's not in that domain where you know you don't have all the information or you know that you need to learn or be objective, you're able to reel it back. Right. That's healthy personality style. So that narcissism, you know, it has such a bad wrap now. But narcissistic, I mean you say somebody is narcissistic. People will say someone's narcissistic, excuse my language, just if
they're like an asshole. But that's like not the same thing. Somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder is not the same thing as somebody who comes off as cocky or conceited or you know, chronic infidelity or you know abuse. It's a very specific type of abuse and a very specific type of personality style. So you know, saying someone's a narcissist really waters down what it really is, and it really invalidates the experiences of survivors who have gone through
narcisstic abuse. I even see this when I post things on like TikTok or Instagram about you know, five things that a narcissist may do. When somebody will say my ex does number one, two and four does that mean they're a narcissist? And so I even have to be careful when I post things to let people know these aren't just behaviors. You don't use any of this to diagnose anybody, because any one of us could do any
of this occasionally. A personality disorder is when this is your entire kind of persona in all domains of your life, not just with one person some of the time.
Got it? Got it? So as far as a person that has traits, so the traits are they're they're in you. Traits are DNA.
Sometimes not all this time?
They could be learned these I was about to say, certain traits come from our mother and father. Correct, Okay, so right, got that? So maybe the a person that procrastinates, is that something that was learned or is that a trait from the mother and father? I guess if you get where I'm going. If a person has narcissistic traits, could their parents? Could one of their parents have those traits?
Yes, but absolutely not necessary to. They could have other things where the child, in order to get through their upbringing, develop certain strategies in response to those parental traits so that they could get through life. So For example, we'll use procrastination as an example. So let's say that you have a parent who is extremely controlling, extremely perfectionistic, expects their child to like, you have all a's, Why don't you have all a pluses? You won this? Why didn't
you win all of them? You know you weigh one hundred pounds, Why aren't you weigh ninety nine ouns? So just really on you, really strict, so that child could grow up thinking nothing they ever do is write right, and so they have this constant fear of failure and letting people down is swooting, so they may overcompensate for that by trying so hard throughout their life to be perfectionistic. The problem is is that perfectionists have this horrible fear
of failure, and so what they do. The reason why they procrastinate is because if they don't start it well, then they can never really fail because the control was on them whether to start it or not. And so you end up having procrastination and perfectionism kind of go hands in hand. So that would be a perfect example of how the parent may not be a procrastinator, but by coping with that, the child becomes one. Over time.
It becomes one. Okay, did you find over time? Because everybody that's going to be listening to this, it's probably going to be wondering, was I ever in relationship with a narcissist? Was my parent a narcissist? I found that in one relationship that I was in, I felt like what was happening was so hard to explain. I couldn't get words to it, but I just recall how it made me feel. Now that we're getting some more awareness
in language, I'm like, God, bless this person's soul. I believe underneath all the rubble, I believe they're a good person. But I'm like, I wonder if that that was narcissism because it's it's almost hard to explain and all I all I remember, All I could do was just tell people how something was making me feel.
Yeah, very common. And the reason a lot of times why you can't explain it for two reasons. One because if you actually say it out loud, it sounds absolutely crazy, like there's no way, and then you'll doubt yourself like that can't be what's happening, Like wow, am I a bad person for even thinking that way? That's one, and
two if it's narcissistic abuse. It's done in such a methodical, calculated, purposeful way so that the person they're abusing isn't able to even identify what's going on because they're either isolated from other people or they're just constantly on edge, constantly confused, scared, and so they can't even put it into words, nor do they even want to.
Wow, do you think that there is still so much to learn as it relates to the word narcissism, Oh, for sure, you feel like, Okay, depression and anxiety, we kind of, yeah, but narcissism is just something kind of being unearthed.
Then, yeah, because I think for a long time, you know, I think with social media it came out a lot more with you know, obviously have to be cautious who you're listening to and what information you're getting, but when people started sharing their stories, that was when it really
became kind of more out in the open. Because survivors of narcissistic abuse are so isolated emotionally physically that they don't ever talk about it, and they question whether it's even real or not, and so when they hear other people talking about it, it's like this moment of empowerment and they have this like epiphany like, oh my god, that's my story. Wait, I'm not alone, I'm not crazy. So I think hearing other people's stories was so helpful,
especially during the pandemic. It was so helpful for people to hear this stuff because people were home in these relationships with no way out. And that's when it really started to I think kind of people were talking about it more and more.
Yeah, how does a person know if what they're dealing with, If what they're dealing with is narcissism and their partner, are they just having a bad day?
Excellent question. So somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder won't It won't just be a bad day. They will be purposely manipulative, no empathy, a abusive verbally, physically, sexually, financially, long term. This isn't something that's just you know, we wake up, we're in a bad mood, like we yell at our kids, or we yell at our significant other, we cancel plans and our friends. That's not this. This
is a pervasive pattern throughout their entire life, across all relationships. Now, they may seem extremely charming in public, they may seem extremely giving, philanthropic, They may seem just wonderful, larger than life. Everybody loves them in public, but behind closed doors are horrifically abusive.
They just want to be seen giving. Yes, you know, they'll show up to your birthday party to let everybody feel like it's for show. It's performance.
It's a performance. It's a facade, it's a performance. They are amazing actress. And so here's the thing I'll say. You know, people will ask you know, well, how do you know? And so if you listen carefully, people say, well, they have no control over their anger. They have no control over that. Yeah, they do. Narcissists one hundred percent do because they can turn it off and be so charming and sweet. But then you get home from an event, you get home from dinner, and the mask falls off
and now they are angry, ragey, physically violent. But if somebody were to knock on the door, oh hi, how are you, and they switch it on and off so fast. So somebody doesn't have control over their emotions, is not capable of doing that. They know exactly what they're doing, so you have to. So it's when you set a boundary with them when you say no to them. When people are dating in the beginning and they're questioning, is this person I'm dating? And narcissists, they always say to them,
cancel plans with them. See what they do, Say no to them, tell them you want to take it a little slower. See what they do, y'all.
Doctor Z says, Narcissists don't show up for you because they care. They show up so people think that they care. She says, I always tell my patients to look at the function of the behavior, the underlying why someone does what they do. With NPD, which is a narcissistic personality disorder which must be diagnosed. Ladies and gentlemen, that function will always be because it gives them something. It actually isn't even about you. You're the vehicle through which their
needs are met. Yes, oh see, then I want to dig to what unmet needs as a child, when unmet for this to kind of morph into this and it's amazing that it is called a personality disorder.
Yeah, I mean, the one very fascinating thing about narcissic personality, or I will say this. You look at depression, you look at anxiety, you look at my polar disorder, schizophrenia, even some of the other personality sorders like sworderline personality disorder. They can all manifest very differently in different people, different ages, you know, like even where you are in the world. I mean, they manifest differently. I get anxious or frustrated,
I start to get migraines. You know, somebody else may get stomaching, somebody else may isolate, So everybody experiences it differently. Narcissistic personality disorder doesn't matter who you are, where you are, where you come from. The behaviors are identical, and they are such nuanced, small behaviors that it's amazing that it's it's all the same across the board. It's a very distinct blueprint.
Okay.
But what happens then is that once people start to see these blueprints, they're able then to predict. And when you're able to predict somebody's behavior, then you start to feel empowered because then you realize it's not about you. It actually has nothing to do with you, which goes back to what you were just saying, that it's just we're just the objects, interchangeable objects.
He ain't something I say, you said it, this was this was in your post from January twenty five, You're good, You're good, good, y'all, She's amazing. She also says you learn way more about a person at the end of a relationship then at the start. We could go on and on and on. Yes, she said, this applies to friendship, significant others, coworkers, family, all of it applies. Speaking of family, let's talk about the possibility of narcissistic parents, let's do that.
I find that when a person goes to therapy and gets some counseling, you begin to get language for what you're going through, why, and how you cope with what you're going through. But then it's always that geniagram that has acts. So what youse your parents? Who are their siblings? Who are they? You gotta go back to the root of a lot of even my behavior has a root. We're not saying our parents are the cause of how we respond to situations. So no, that's not what we're doing.
We now blaming parents. But I find that when you get counseling, you are able to see your parents through a very educational lenses, having compassion, like, oh man, so they were going through this, man, I hate that maybe their childhood wasn't the best and they didn't get love, so you begin to have compassion like man instead of the blame and anger for me turned into compassion like man.
Right now, ladies and gentlemen that are listening to today, And by the way, and I'm prefacing, I'm saying, I'm prefacing all of this because of what therapy did for me to recognize my own parents' behaviors and their struggles inter personally and how they were as parents. These questions, these next questions I'm about to ask have nothing to do with me, like, oh my gosh, let's determine who was narcissistic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I just wanted.
People to know context wise of what therapy did for me as parents, and what therapy is probably doing for other people who are probably getting help being in a narcissistic relationship with the romantic relationship. And then you find out, man, my dad or my mom, or you might an uncle or aunt somebody that raised you, you know, possibly has this disorder. Doctor Jamie mm hmm, yep.
So one of the things you'll find is that when you if you are in therapy and you're kind of either trying to figure out if you're in a narcisstic relationship, or if I'm working with people to leave or post separation, because the abuse continues even after you're separated. What people find is that the pattern that they're experiencing in this abusive relationship is either something that feel familiar to them or something that that is, you know, in an odd way, comforting.
Now I don't say comforting and familiar because they like it, but comforting and familiar because they've seen this before and again. It doesn't have to be you know, if you're with somebody's narcissist, that means a parent was a narcissist. It can be just you know, you could have had a parent that was neglectful, and so your strategies, you know, developed into well, I'm not going to let anyone ever neglect me or leave me, so I'm going to put up this wall. And then later in life that translates
into narcissism. So, you know, whatever the case may be. But people will start to identify patterns in They are very big on patterns of behavior, not just the you know, tell me how you're weak was, but like, I want to know the patterns of behavior. I want to know what you're doing and when you're doing it and so and why you're doing it. So they'll see these patterns that they have in their dynamics of this relationship. They'll realize that the reason why it's familiar to them is
because they know it. And our brains, generally speaking, are tend to be lazy. We like familiarities. Human beings, we really are resistant to change, and so when something is familiar to us, we gravitate towards it, even if it's unhealthy. And you know, we may realize that we're repeating patterns that are familiar to us but clearly are not healthy.
And so that awareness of that, I think is a really big big push for people excuse me, in therapy, because it helps them to identify that what's going on in front of them is something that's not their it's not their fault, and that they have the ability to change their pattern. Because that's the wonderful thing about patterns is that patterns are learned behaviors, and if you learn something, you can unlearn it. It may take a really long time to pull back layers, but you can unlearn it.
You just have to really be willing to do it. And it's going to be uncomfortable.
That's so good. That's so good. So I guess, how does a person recognize a narcissistic parent and healthy boundaries? You encourage healthy boundaries even with parents. You have a relationship road map workshop where you help people recognize patterns and you help people to set boundaries. That's kind of new for people that I'm learning, Like, wait a minute, I can set boundaries with family members.
Yes, yes, yes, So we grow up a lot of people and I'm throwing myself in this too. We grow up thinking that we are not allowed to have boundaries with our parents because our parents are our parents, and there's a level of respect you do not cross, and you know, and it's just kind of how it was. I laugh about this all the time. I have My middle one is seven and she is as sassy as
I mean I have never seen. And I look at her and I'm thinking in my head, if I ever did anything like that, yeah, oh my god, I mean forget, forget, forget it, forget it like you forget, and so it would have been grounded for a century. So we think that we can't set boundaries with their parents because there are parents. But here's the thing is that it doesn't matter who they are. You, as a human being, have a right in this world to set boundaries. You have
a right as a human being. I don't care who they are, to let people know how you are willing to be treated and how you will not tolerate to be treated. What they do with that information, that's on them. We can't change anyone else. But we have the right as human beings to let people know what we're willing to take and not take.
So a lot of us we don't set boundaries, nor do we may even walk away from certain things, all because we're worried about their reaction, correct versus what you just said. That's not on you. Their reaction is not on you at this point, y'all. If you know you are in something unhealthy and abusive, the worry should not be about them and their reaction. It's got to be about your freedom and at this point, y'all, quality of life that you decide that you deserve to have.
I love that absolutely absolutely. And I'll have people come in all this day and they'll say, you know, doctor Z, I set a boundary, but it didn't work. And I'll say, well, what do you mean it didn't work? Well, my mom still did X, Y and Z, and my dad still did X, Y and Z. But that's not how you decide whether a boundary worked or not. The boundary is did you set it or not? Well? Yes, I did? Okay, Well what they do in response to that is not
of your concern. Especially with parents. You're going to feel like you're doing something wrong. You're going to feel guilty, and you're going to feel bad. You need to set the boundary out at the same exact time. Feel those emotions.
Now set the boundary, and now what I found. You know, just with people that I've loved, you do it in love is a way I think, just for now you can be flat footed, be factual, you know, but in setting the boundary, especially with loved one with parents, I personally wouldn't suggest cursing them out and no throwing pots and pans.
Nah, no, no, correct, correct, that's not neutral. I always tell people to strive for neutral, like neutrality, which means not rolling your eyes, not ignoring, not throwing pots and pans, not screaming, but neutral, neutral tone, neutral words, no opinions, no anything but fact just neutral, because then you kind of lose sight of everything.
Wow, you're amazing. You're amazing. One person knows that I am talking to you today. I always love telling people, Hey, I'm talking with someone and they're expert in this. And so they wanted to talk about narcissistic bosses, and yeah, I'm like, wait a minute, you got a narcissistic boss, you know, so that I'm gonna be going on Google to find out who their boss is. But that's that's
just we don't have to do that. And so they're saying, so many people are quitting or quiet quitting, you've heard that term quiet quitting because they're tired of overworking. How can we tell under a corporate atmosphere that our boss could be a narcissist.
Yeah, so there's a couple of things. One is not all the time. But sometimes if you look at people in higher positions, right, CEO, CFOs or people just kind of that are that are that are kind of higher up in their field or higher up in their industry and they are in charge of multiple people, they tend to have more narcissistic traits, let's say, than somebody who does not, and it makes them good at their job, right, And it makes them be able to navigate and manage
all these people. But when you're talking about narcissistic personality disorder, there's a difference. So somebody who has a boss that is narcissistic personality disorder, which we'll do a couple of things. One, they will keep you walking on eggshells. They may fly off the handle for no reason. They may be really sweet to you one day. The thing is is you
have no idea why they're switching it. So you're constantly trying to figure out what it is it's making them, you know, trying to figure out the rules of the game. But the problem is they deliberately are not telling you the rules of the game, and once you think you figured it out, they change it up again. That's on purpose. You may find that they embarrass you in meetings. They may find they purposely leave you out of meetings, leave you off certain emails on purpose. You may find that
they keep information from you. They pass over you for promotion so that you then have to go speak to them. They oftentimes take credit for your work. They will not give you the credit that you deserve. They will you go out of their way to make you feel that you don't know what you're talking about, or that you are so amazing and wonderful, and you in a situation where you're this like go to amazing, smart human being, but then bring you down justice fast, vibrating you.
Let's say in a meeting, Oh my gosh, as you're saying this, I am literally thinking about many people who are going to listen to this and have found themselves in relationship with the narcissists working for one, you got blood ties with one, and my heart is breaking on the inside, like because you almost feel like that narcissistic person does not even value your soul.
They don't. You're not a person, You're you're an object that and understand for me as a psychologist, like I help everyone, Like my goal and life is to make everybody feel better. Right, So for me to say this, it's like when psychologist says this, we all talk about this, Like for us to say this, it's really like, oh, we don't want to. But they view other people as
interchangeable objects. So whatever it is they need in any given moment, whether it's money, whether or it's sex, whether it's a job, whether it's somebody to go to dinner with, whether it's it's you know, just somebody to drive them somewhere, somebody to have on their arm, to look good, whatever they need in that moment, that's what they're going to use to get to you. And then when that need is gone, you don't serve a purpose anymore. And so it's it's they they look at people as like they
own they own them. There's like an ownership quality to it that you you are, They are entitled to you, They are entitled to what you can give them. Wow, that's why people that break up that break like narcissic relationships where if they break up, you know, in non narcissistic relationships, if you break up with somebody, you may talk every now and then, but like you're not together anymore, there's no it's it's separate, right, and everyone goes on
their way. And I'm not saying it's not hard, but with a narcissist, they will forever think even if you're not together, they will forever think that you are there still always.
I know it's not funny, but I gotta I remember telling someone because we're still friends, and I would say, even when you walk down the aisle and they say who giveth the way this person or whatever and be like we do because I'm still in relationship. So wow, this is so good, doctor Jamie, this is so good. I'm excited because you have two books called Find Your Calm and Find Good Habits and your Job. You have helped many people escape narcissistic relationships. You've helped people, You've
empowered people. I don't want to respect that this is what you do as a job. But at the same time, someone is listening that's probably just need to know just one. I know there's probably more than one, but what is the first thing a person needs to start doing if they want to break away from a narcissist and begin to set boundaries.
I would if you can safely get into individual therapy with somebody who is able to understand the nuances of these behaviors, that would be that would be my first, Okay, So that you can have somebody that's objective, that's outside of this, that you can trust, that you have a safe space to begin to process what you are going through.
Because at a certain point point when you realize what's going on, it's kind of this light bulb moment, and once you see it, you can't unsee it, So it's really important to be with somebody in therapy when that happens.
Can you still love and support someone that is a narcissist.
I think you can say that you don't want something bad to happen to them, but as far as loving them, they at that point probably have done so much abusive behavior to you that I don't put the response ability on people to still have love for them. I go to a place more of can you be at peace with what happened for yourself? I think it's very hard to tell people to work on kind of having love towards it. If they can, that's amazing. I just I
don't like telling people that's the goal. It's more can you be at peace where whatever they do does not affect you anymore?
That's so good. And that's where we come into your book, How to Find Your Calm, How you can break unhelpful thought patterns, practicing how to confront fears, finding strategies for focusing on the present moment. And I just think that I'm excited about this book and your mission is helping people find a path toward a calmer, happier daily life. That was the reason for that book and then find
good habits. You know, I noticed that when you're healing from a relationship, whether it was abusive or it just didn't work out, you kind of lost yourself somewhere along the way or your sure your habits become their habits, their habits become yours, and it's like, who are you after this relationship is done? So finding good habits can you kind of dive in, and if you want to dive into, find your home before I let you go, because I could keep you on here for forty more.
Man, Now, this is fun.
This is fun. I like that, But I want to acknowledge. I want to acknowledge your relationship roadmap, workshop and your books, find your and find good habits.
So I'll start find good habits the biggest thing. And I like that you said when you come out of a relationship, whether it's a narcissisic one or it's not, or it's toxic, you kind of lose yourself a little bit, right. That's that happens, and I think it's important to say that that happens, and it's okay. And one of the ways to kind of get yourself back is in the book find good habits is I first have people do
what it calls a value assessment. It's so important to figure out what it is that you value in life, and then from those values, you then make goals, tangible goals like that, hard fact, goals that you can actually count and say, did I do this today? Yes?
Or no? Not?
I want to be happy because I don't know what that means. You never want a goal to be a mood because moods change. This morning, I was in a horrible mood. Now I'm fine. What if I like in a bad mood later on, does that mean I fail at my goal? So moods should never be goals. There are transient states, and so you want to make sure
that your goals are in line with your value. So if I value being a good psychologist, right, let's say my goal is to make sure I do outreach once a week, to make sure I post something on Instagram once a week? Did I do that? Yes or no? And the more of those goals that I hit that are in line with what I value as being a good psychologist kind of puts me on that path to have less anxiety, less stress, right, and puts me back
into who I want to be. If my behavior, though, goes the opposite direction of the thing that I value, it puts us more at risk for anxiety and depression. So it really has to be value driven behavior, even if it's uncomfortable.
Value driven. And you said not necessarily moves because they're transient, they change.
Yeah, that's like when people say they'll come into my office and they'll say, I just I just want to be happy. I'm like, okay, what does that look like? It's happiness for me. I'm going to go about that way differently than you may go about you know, happiness, And I think it's a big it's a danger. And that's why things like you know, self love and I think they're great concepts. But but what is self give me behaviors? How will you know if you're loving yourself?
What kind of things do you need to do to fall under the umbrella of self loves? So that's what this book helps with.
That's so good, so good. And your workshop relation ship boundaries. Yes, have you seen people that are already in relationships that it actually strengthens the relationships they're already in.
The non narcissistic ones, Yes, for sure. The narcissistic ones, no, I wish I could have saw her face.
She was like, yes, then yes, the non narcissistic yes, absolutely yes.
Not the narcissistic ones know, because the abuse just gets progressively worse if you don't leave. But the non narcissistic ones absolutely for sure.
Well, because you know, when you're in a relationship with someone and then all of a sudden a year goes by and they say, you know, I don't like when you do that, that kind of your pride and ego gets stung a little bit. Yes, but it makes the relationship better because that person they probably said it was so much fear because they were probably worried about the reaction they were. Sometimes we don't say things because we'd rather hold on to the relationship as well.
But absolutely there are.
Times when when someone says, you know what, I don't like when you do that, because say, it's me that they're telling that too. I didn't know that me going yes, putting my doing like this to my phone with my fingernails, I didn't know that that irritates you or makes you anxious. So now that I know, ah, wow, the response should be I'm so sorry. I had no clue yes.
So that's the difference. I'm actually use that as a perfect example. That is the difference between somebody who is non narcissist versus narcissist in a relationship. If you say to somebody who maybe has the narcissisic features, let's say they're selfish or whatever, they don't listen that much to you, and you tell them that right that you know, this
is this I don't like when you do this. Somebody who has empathy, somebody who cares about how the other person feels, they're going to respond like you ditch you just said. They may not agree with it, but they don't want to hurt you, and maybe they can find a compromise. Somebody who is a narcissist who hears that is going to look at that as an attack, because narcissists, when they hear criticism proof, they take it to a unhelped I mean the rage. It's like you attack to
their soul. So not only will they not hear you, but they will not make any effort whatsoever to change, And more important, it doesn't bother them that you are bothered. There's no empathy there. So you know, sometimes people say how do I know it's a narcissist versus not because sometimes on the surface, the behaviors, the patterns may look
the same. This is how no empathy, how do they respond, no empathy, no concern for you know, not able to put themselves in other people's shoes and then using that to then manipulate you even further.
And ladies and gentlemen, when we hear that, we say, oh no, oh no honey, not me, not me, no mean. And you just never know you could find your never know, you know, because you're drawn to them by their charm. The love bombing, all the love bombing will almost blind you to that in people, there's nothing better. Yeah.
And here's the thing too, you know, it's a people that narcissists are drawn to typically are very successful, attractive, smart, have so much going to them. Why one because it makes the narcissist look good, but two, it's so much supply for them when they bring somebody down who was that high up. So it's not just people who are really weak and mild and vulnerable that go to narcissists a lot of times, it's people that are very successful and very smart and very driven.
Yeah, all right, now, because I'm not even driving and I feel like I need to pull over. Okay, so I can imagine someone who's listening to checking in on their riot home on your commute. You're ready to tell the train conductor, pover. Listen you guys, doctor Z, you have been in absolute joy. I tell you, I do want you to come back, because I want to go into I've heard. I've been reading about healthy narcissism and how like you said, there are people who are very
high up in what they do. You have to have a level of narcissism to be successful. I don't know if you do or not. You're successful, doctor Z. My girls that our producers on here are successful. I just don't know if they're necessarily narcissist. I deem myself to be successful. I don't know if I'm narcissists. So I just don't know if you have to be a narcissist to be successful.
You don't, Okay, you don't, Yeah, you don't. You know, and just you know, narcissistic qualities, let's say, doesn't include lack of empathy, lack of remorse, not being able to see other people's side to things. I mean that also is what makes it's a good CEO or you know, somebody who's in charge of being able to hear their employees concerned and being able to fix things to make people's lives better. So I love you.
Know.
That's why I think narcissism sometimes it's it's hard to it's it kind of gives us, I don't know this, uh, the wrong definition for certain things, got it? So I always use narcissic personality disorder because I think that that kind of separates the two.
That's so good, doctor Z.
Thank you again, Thank you, This was so fun. Anytime?
Where can we find you?
I'm on Instagram, doctor Z, Underscore Psychologists, and my website doctor Jamie Zuckerman dot com. I'm on TikTok and.
Yeah, yes she is, Yes she is. Yeah, I'm sad to see her go, but we've got to go and she's got to go. So I'm gonna put you on the spot. You promise you'll come back again?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely right, It is great.
All right, we'll see you late. OMG. I know y'all have been seeing this word flying around on social media. I mean it is everywhere, whether it's the word narcissist or narcissism, and yes, we have found out that it can also be a diagnosed personality disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder. A person can also have just narcissistic traits. It don't necessarily make you a narcissist, but you might have some traits.
And I am so glad that doctor Z was able to break down a few things and how narcissists actually prey upon a certain personality or they just get joy out of breaking somebody down. Y'all, Doctor Z has to come back. I hope you guys learned a lot. I know I did. I know that whenever we have these conversations. Yes, there are certain people that pop up in my mind. But I also lit sit here and I check in
with myself. I check in with my heart to make sure, like Lord, I need to pray about this and making sure that there is nothing in my heart that is contrary to the love of God that needs to be shown to everybody. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio yo app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.