Checking In w/ Dr. Debra Warner

training professional, and author. She addresses diverse topics including post traumatic stress disorder, multicultural therapeutic techniques, gang intervention, prison reform, human trafficking, violence against women's substance abuse, relationships, parenting, and mental health. Y'all, I'm excited about doctor Deborah Warner joining us today. She's a professor in Los Angeles, I think, but today she's joining us from Columbia University in New York.

She is everywhere, and she's often asked to be an expert witness, psychological evaluator, and consultant soul. She's an expert witness that is asked to testify on court cases. Y'all know, my field or my major was criminal justice at one time, and so I am just thrilled to be talking to doctor Deborah Warner today. So please stay tuned. If you're a crime junkie like me, stay listening. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of Checking In. I'm so grateful for everybody

who downloads episodes. It seems like you're telling everybody about Checking In, and we cannot do cannot even be in a season three without y'all checking in. Today's guest. I'm so excited. I'm literally about to If I had children, they would probably say, you're embarrassing me, because you know how you have parents that say, you know, when I was growing up, I wanted to be an astronaut. I

wanted to be a doctor. So they start telling you all the things that they did right, and I am about to do the same thing with our next guest. She is a leading for forensic psychologist, trauma expert, speaker, and author of several titles. I mean, she's got an upcoming conference that's about trauma and mental health and we are going to get into that. But y'all, she's amazing. Okay, she made me go put on a red lip. Y'all. Welcome doctor Deborah Warner to Checking In. Adam Schelle, how

are you. I am just excited to do so I listen, doctor, I am so glad to meet you. The good thing about checking and we get to talk to and a array of people who specialize and everything from trauma to mental health. We even had Lorenz Tate and he's an actor and so see y'all look her eyes got big. She was like, wait a minute, Lorenz Taate. Yes, She's like, why we how come we couldn't do a group chat? You know? So this is what I'm about to say.

That could be embarrassing if I had children or anybody listening, because somebody always got to tell you what they wanted to be when they grew up. But doctor Warner. In college, my major was criminal justice because I wanted to be a forensic psychologist. No yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes. And to this day I watch all type of true crime in real time. I don't like like recreated stuff like say, for instance, one of the popular stories right

out right now is the Murdole trial. Right and so I'm sitting there even as of last night, some new stuff has come out about the sun and I'm like trying to be doctor Deborah, trying to figure out what would you say and how would you unpiece everything? So, yes, I have to be the one to be like I wanted to be like you, This is what I wanted to do. Wow. Wow, that just makes me really happy because you know part of what I do right now, Since you're into piecing out crimes and all of that,

that's kind of what I do every day. Like I go in the prisons and I actually piece together if someone is still going to behold all the time that they're released, and so I have to go back backtry put all that information together. Sometimes it's like two pages, and I have to figure out how that person ticked and tell the court how they're going to proceed in life. It is very, very fascinating. I think this year have

done at least three her cases like that. Really. Yeah, Well, if you need an assistant to help stack papers and put them in order and file everything for you, let me know. I'd be glad to intern for you for the summer. Oh my good, did you want to have to enter with them? Listen? Well, I will intern for you based where do you? Where are you based? Right now? I am based in California, And right now I'm in New York City and I am sitting you know, here at Columbia talking to you. But I'm based in LA.

Really well, let me know when you get back to California so I can help sax and papers. Okay, Oh, I will let you know and we will we will talk about this, but you have I will let you live that out. That will be so much fun just to do that. Please, please, please, So, doctor Warner, you have been a speaker at TED Talk on male trauma. Yes, and you even wrote a book titled His Story, Her Story, A Survival Guide for Spouses of Male Survivors of Sexual Abuse.

So you guys that are listening, not only is she so as you can see, you went from forensics to trauma, specifically male trauma, because doctor Debra, there are times where do you think a lot of it kind of goes on talked about with men? Oh? Absolutely men, because men don't disclose. Men will carry that secret for twenty thirty years, and then when they do, they're afraid people gonna laugh

at them or not believe them. Right, The biggest thing you can do is a man discloses to you is shut up and let him tell you the whole story, because if you don't listen and he's trying to, is probably the first time he'll never tell anyone else again, you would stopped that process and that journey of healing. And so I always tell people that men are different because they will not disclose it. When they do, you have to let them have that space. Wow, how did

you get into forensics and trauma? How did that in mental health? How did that come about? You know, you're how God got eat two places? That's kind of what happened, right. And I remember working in New York and being at this place and then I saw these patients and it was like this big, old early guy tearing a payphone out of the wall. And I said, what kind of patients are those? And they said, those are forensics patients. I said, that's what I want to do the rest

of our life. And I just in crisis, it's just how I just don't respond. I'm able to see a situation and we'll navigate through it, but I'm really able to understand people, right, And so I waited three years for a program to come out so that I could be a forensic psychologist. But now I mentor other people. And one of the things I do is the Script Conference every year for people and it's free to the community.

It's on male violence and trauma. And this year is on diversity and inclusion and it's July twentieth and twenty first. And what we do is that we let anyone come. We have people from the FBI, we have wardens of prisons, and we have ex gang members on the same panels. Wow. Yeah. One year we did Black Lives Matter with the police. Wow. You know, it made me want to ask when you are talking about having to sit with inmates and go over cold files or not even cold case files, but

files that are current. You know, as we're seeing in the news right now, are you finding when you get to talk with the men that are you finding a lot of trauma that they had in childhood? Oh? Absolutely, This word starts. It starts from childhood. But not just sexual trauma. Like in my book this history or story, it is environmental trauma. It's the fact that they're growing

up with that around them, especially people of color. My book Barber and My Boys, that's all about environmental violence and those people were traumatized from living in that environment and causing them problems later in life. You never know what's going to affect somebody, right, But when you have everything coming at you from environment it's going to completely

change your worldview. And then you're a man and you're told you gotta be strong, you have to be a good dad, you have to be the top athlete, you have to do all these things right. But when you have to be everything and you're broken, can you imagine you have a hard time when you can't live up to expectations. So that's what causes a lot of the

problems with people emotionally, especially men in trauma. Okay, so I'm assuming do you feel men kind of process or display trauma different than women, and if so, what are some of the signs? Well, manifests different, right, I mean, women who are traumatized might go down the one path and men might go down the same path. Right, But it manifests differently because men are socialized differently. Women will

talk about it, you can. There's lots and lots of resources from women in domestic violence shelters or women who have been traumatized. They're not as many for men because people don't believe men, or they say, suck it up and be a mayor. Right, Yeah, so that's the problem in our society. I want to ask you what type of person tells a person to suck it up from

a psychologist point of view. Seriously, A very famous comedian that was on a station actually when and someone was asking him that question, and his response was that suck it up in vehement. I don't say who it is, they know, yes, And so I've heard that many many times. Or they say they were lucky. If a female perpetrator and the kids thirteen years old is sexually abusing them

and they're like thirty five, they'll say they're lucky. Do you know that you just shaped their whole world and how they see women and how they see other people, and how they have wives and daughters. But they don't realize they're lucky. I know we were talking about. I mentioned your book, His Story, Her Story, A survival Guy for spouses of male survivors of sexual abuse and trauma. Now, if you are in a relationship with the men who

has suffered trauma, what does that look like in her relationship? Well, my husband's are trauma's survivor. He's the one who encouraged me to go down this path because he realized there was something about me working with men who were traumatized. Because I just sat one day, honestly, and I said, what the heck is wrong with my husband? Like I couldn't figure out, And I said, you know, they're just

like colleges. You don't want to shrink your husband. We want to know this relationship does not follow other patterns, right, And it doesn't follow other patterns because there's so many safety issues that were broken. There are so many issues of being dominant, but you're broken inside, so you don't

want to be seen as weak. There are so many different things that and men, especially if you're supposed to be the red owner and you're supposed to be the person that is the head of the household, but you're you're depressed and you have all these things inside. Right, Well, you're men only have one emotion if they can show in life, and that's anger. So they become angry, right, and they yell or they do things like that, and you're like, why is in one speed or the highway?

Why can't you have others? Because that is the only acceptable one. So to say I'm hurting, to say I'm depressed comes out as anger. It out of irritability. And so a lot of times when I'm in the prison, I get to tell those stories to the court now right, and they're saying they're angry, they're violent. I said, no, he's a trauma survivor, and let me tell you what you need to do so that you can help him, versus saying it to trauma survivor and he's a lost clause.

So even though I love my job and I get to work with all these people and figure out if they are going to re hurt society, I also get to tell a story, and that story a lot of times helps other people. I remember I was working on this one case and it was a trauma survivor and there's like, no, this has got stand person forever. And I said, if he has the right things because of this, especially if you get him away from his family, I guarantee in time they'll be better. I'm not saying today,

I'm saying in life. Time will start to heal him because now he's willing to talk. And that is the key is to get to talk and get it open. Women talk all the time. Men they can't do it as much, so you have to find a way to get in there. So you're saying that there are some men that are in prison who can definitely be rehabilitated simply by someone sitting there listening to him, which can

start his healing journey. Yes, now we all know that unfortunately their healing journey does not bring back the person that was harmed, right, No, that it doesn't bring them back, or even if the person is still alive, they are still they're going to have that lifelong memory of trauma that was inflicted upon them by that person in prison that you get to speak to. But are you finding do you have like a success story or two where you're like, because someone listened, they're on a better path.

Have they been released into the community, and how are they doing? I how a few of us that made me smile, and a lot of them, and I have a lot of my voice from Barbara, my voice, their success stories. I wrote them down. I got them to help me help others understand by allowing me to write down their five stories, My Niko, my Tommy, my Blue. They come every year and they help me and my Barbara from Barbara and my boys you know, and my mistreporter.

And they their stories are from being in there, from attempted murder to being gang bangers to now Barbara, you know, has a whole organization that helps young girls who are in gangs. And they told me, you know, if you are, we are a reflection of you because you allow us to have a voice. And I said, none of them. I am your heart and I'm able to tell that story. And then now they have a platform, you know, because

they come to my conference. But I mean, those stories make me happen, like being able to help in that way and help my community like that, what sparked your interest in this field? It's amazing, you know. I want to do my neck of the woods. I want to create change. I want to create change for the next you know, society. I do have a map with people and understanding them, you know, because that's the gift God gave me. Right, So how can I use that for good?

Like you know, my son, I'm out here in New York. I'm doing a social emotional learning program with kids in acting and comedy right and I'm presenting at the Cosmic Calling Club. Oh man, I wish you were here because I invite you. People don't even understand how that work that you're doing for actors, how important that is. But that's a whole another question for later. Like yeah, okay,

well I'll go onto it briefly. By the way, there are some actors who have suppressed feelings who can't seem to I'm in one of them where they're like, get angry, get angry, and I'm like, yeah, I can't get angry. Yeah, but why there is a white to white. So it takes the work that you're doing, doctor Devor to work with actors to let them know, first of all, you're safe, and maybe you need to get this out because the thing that you're about to play is going to be

so organic. Yes, And that's the thing that I do is I take that one thing we startain monologues, and then I take that one thing, I say, okay, now you link to it, and then what is that feeling you're trying to convict? And then everybody does it with the trainer so that the actors get to work with the trainer on what they see. So it's like a mirror process. And we're doing this with kids so that later in life they don't get stuck with these emotions

they're not getting out, which is really great. And my little son at six, he couldn't read, so I use social emotional learning with him and he's written two bocks. The little kid who couldn't read at six is now a published author. And he made all these animals to tell his story. And the latest one is Freddy Fox's Freaky Fire and he talks about this and he has these characters and it's just amazing. But what you can do,

Like you ask me why for that joy that I got? Yeah, my little boy, you use the tools God gave you. If you use what God gave you, you can do good. Right. You just have to believe in yourself. You know, with everything that we're seeing on social media, say, I have this question about gaming, Oh yeah, are you finding people? I guess the psychology behind why. Somebody says I want to do this in real life, and I'm like, no, this is just a game, because if you do it

in real life, you're gonna be in jail. You're you're talking about like the gaming culture and then being able to put crimes out. Yes, yes, okay, I actually work in that area. And people don't realize that there are underground games right on the black net that are actual other things that are going on, right and so and then just like you have, you know, snuff films, things like that. There's a whole section of stuff that people

don't even realize it's out there. But then you have the kids that are on the you know, they're doing a twitch and they're doing all that. They're gaming and

they're just playing the game. But then you have in all of these is what I've seen is you get obsessed with this and you sit and you're sedentary, right, and for some reason you're not engaging with the world, and that's why you get sucked into this stuff and you end up on the black Net and and all that stuff because you are there's thing you're dealing with. The video games is feeling for you that is just not It's not what you need to be doing. And

I always tell people you don't go get help. I used to use video games as therapy so that I could tap into that person that was sitting there on the couch like that. Yeah, because I said, well, that's their world, let me figure out how I can get in there. Listen, you know how many men would love to say, if I need to play video games, I'm going to therapy. All my teenagers would show up because I knew it. All the thing is I'm talking about

grown men who's still playing games. Yeah, that's true, that's true. Be like, honey, no, you know, go to therapy. You know you get to play video games. Yes, yes, but you know you preach, you reach your client where they're at. Yeah. That was the other thing I did in the prisons too. When I used to be in there, I used to bring a boombox. You know, they've never got to have all this music and in there sometimes, so I would

go in there, I bring my boombox. I said, give me a list of songs, but you have to tell me what that song. See, so they got to hear all this music. Because I'm a therapist, I can bring it in right, and so they have to hear it. But then we had to talk about wow, which gets them talking and expressing. Right. That's so good because there are so many of I'm gonna say, us, we don't know how to talk, we don't know how to express,

and there's so many reasons. And I'll never forget, you know, reading things that say let your kids express themselves, you know, because I grew up in a place where it was don't know, you can't say anything because that's considered talking back. But you don't realize you're suppressing their ability to express for later, right. And and then you know, it's so funny because I have my son and have my daughter, and my mom would always say, you don't let him

saying it. I said, I'm gonna let him say whatever he wants. And then I'm a practive and I'm gonna be a parent. That's the difference is that I'm gonna teach him how to talk, but I'm to teach him, for example, right instead of me as a kid, my response would be, you know, get the switch right. That's not exactly my southern house, right, you know. So I'm like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna I'm gonna parent a different way, right. I remember kid was jumping on

the couch one day. He was like three years old. He's jumping up on the couch and I was like, yeah, let him do that, and I said, he's not hurting anything. And when he cracks his head real stop. Okay. So

I hope my cousin Brittany is listening. She's a therapist and she definitely believes in that, you know, and a lot of people might say little jokes to her or make you know, or say little smart comments of the way that she is deciding to parent her child in the way that she wasn't parented, or in the way even like I said, that's my first cousin, in a way that I wouldn't because you're used to a belt, you're used to a switch, you know what I mean? By the way, I'm sure you've seen that how that

manifest in a person's behavior later on. Yes, yes, that makes it even worse than you have all these weird attachments, right, you get disordanized attachments. You love and you hate your viewser at the same time because they're your parent, but get you hate them because they hit you, right, and so then you start making that same attachment with all these people. That's why you have broken marriages. It's why there's divorces, that's why people can't connect to their kids

because they've done all that. And you know, one of the things people don't get because in the black community we talk about the switch, right, but that happened because of history. Right, I'm not gonna get too deep, but the difference is is that we picked that up because we didn't want someone else to do it, because we didn't want our child dead. So that's why we picked it up. We didn't pick it up because that's what's our nature. It was because it was either us or

someone else who didn't love our child. Doctor one, and I have hurt that. I'm sure people listening have hurt it. Like, if I don't beat my child, the police will, right, somebody else will, so before let me disapline my child at home so that no one else has to do it. I have Yeah, you're right, I definitely have heard that,

and it is passed down. You have when I tell you several areas of expertise, but there was an area that's not talked about a lot, maybe in our world, I'm sure obviously where you go as far as corporate trauma workplace trauma, yes, and how this can affect one's help. So what qualifies as workplace trauma? Oh my goodness, So corporate trauma to have a course on, I listen to love university on it too. But one of the things the reason I made the course was because you know,

I used to be in the corporate world. You know, I was like assistant acting dean for a while, Like you know, I was the first full professor like forty two like you know who look like me? At some point and I realized I wasn't me. Does that make sense? Yeah? And I was behaving in a way that fits certain social norms, and I said, but what do I want

to do too? You know? And then I realized I was like freaking out because I didn't have donuts one day for a meeting, right, because you better have your donuts, you said you were having. Yeah, yeah, you got to produce. And that's traumatizing, right, But then you have where you can't even go tell somebody how you're feeling. You can't even express that because if you do, there's someone right there to pick you off and take through place, right, right, Yeah,

that's traumatizing because you're never secure. You never get secure footing. So one of the things I teach people is how to find that secure footing, how to find your allies, how to find mentors. Right, And I didn't have mentors, and then I finally have really good mentors, and I learned, I said, you you have there's certain things you do in the corporate virus, certain things you don't, and then when you're ready, leave on your own terms, because then

you leave being you. Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. Now, y'all don't be going to work talking about some telling the boss I'm leaving today. I listened to checking in with Michelle and they told us that we can leave, you know, but so you know, what should a person do, because no one should be experienced. Well, people don't even know that that's what they're doing, inflicting trauma. No, I'll

be full transparency. I was sitting in a counseling session one year and I'm sitting in a session with someone and they were telling the therapist something that I said, and the therapist looked at me and said, you know, this can be considered verbal abuse, And I said, no, I know what I felt to have been verbally abuse. I've been verbally abused, not in this relational But they don't realize, like, no, it's not about the yes, the

tone in which you say something. I just thought it was the volume and how a person can stand over you and seem so threatening you know what I'm saying. And so I think there are some I think even some microaggressions in the workplace can be seen as trauma. Right, Yes,

if I'm hearing the that's where I was going. Microaggressions, those little bitty things like people don't realize when you say something like, you know, going into someone's office, right, and you hand them a document you did and then they say to you, oh, did someone help you with this? It's so well written? What does that say? You're giving uncompla that you're not You're saying you're not smart enough to do it on your own. That's a microaggression. So

guess what happens? You said that? Well, Sally overhears it. She goes and says, oh, did you hear what they said? Now you've created an environment where this person is seeing like they can't write and they don't understand what happened. And then the trauma continues. It starts going because people don't realize what comes out of their mouth. People here, it goes in their heart. That's the key. It goes in their heart, and then people believe it. Doctor Deborah, Wow,

I hope that whoever is listening. I feel like you're triggered, and hopefully you can just sit and breathe and me and doctor Deborah can sit here and tell you you don't deserve that. No, you know what I mean, And so just kind of breathe. And how many people doctor have to deal with trauma at the workplace because they

meet this job. It's like I can't quit. I have the family, or a lot of people stay on the job and are experiencing trauma on the job because that's where they get the insurance and benefits, right, And they got the baby at home, right, they got the grandma, or they're taking care of their mom. But those are those generational layers that people don't realize bring someone in

the workplace. A lot of time now I do consulting, especially with female executives, and I talk about the layers because they don't realize that onion is what's keeping them in that job because they may not be happy because you know, I have elderly parents, they say, or my kids going to college, or I'm a single mom, or I've made partner and I worked really hard, But are you happy? Oh my god, that's not making you right.

It's the layers that I go through with them. This first of all, working with female executives, that can be a whole other or another yes, I'm gonna say another, a whole nother masterclass that I don't know if you have ever done, Like just for female executives because of the slack they get, the flat they get, the like you said, the microaggression too, you know, just on females

period in the workplace, it's traumatic. Let's talk about corporate America regarding the pandemic and how tons of people She's like, what corporate America the pandemic? There ain't nobody at work no more. Well, well, it's because they've been doing the term quiet quitting, you know. So there's there's so many terms. There's a new term called soft life, but that's new because it's like what I think I want to soft

life too. But anyway, we got quiet quitting, and there's so many people who quit because because they no longer wanted to go above and beyond. They only wanted to do the work that they were paid for. And there is even a push for four day work weeks that are trending. What do you use foresee as the new corporate climate? If workers aren't heard what I think's gonna happen or what right corporate's gonna predict to happen? Right,

you're the expert, So okay, I'll give you. I'll give you two Sunarians Okay, First of all, I think nobody's gonna go back to work. They love this. The pandemic has caused people to see things differently. People in Europe do this all the time, right, and they're able to balance and do things. I mean people like being in their sweatpants and just five minutes before going the right so you know everybody has done it so because nobody knows there right. So so but I got on my

full outfit. I'm matching from I'm matching. I don't have on just sweats. I'm matching well. But but this is what people are doing, right, and so they're they're gonna push back. The problem is corporations have build these sky rides offices. They have all these people and no one's in them. They are in New York. You're in New York as we speak, right in the mindset, I have to see you to be working. But there are so many skyscrapers being build office spaces, like, what are they

going to do? I mean, how many apartments can you have? Right? So there's gonna be a shift in realistic and what is that shift going to look like? Are they going to force people to come to work? So they don't waste their money big organizations. Maybe not. Are we gonna have a shift in hotels? Are we gonna have a shift in leisure spaces or spaces people can rent for office space, or are we gonna have a shift and

looking at how we redirect to work? Hey, you you know what this This used to be an office space and we're gonna revamp this to be a space where you can work a plate. Okay, So I think that there's gonna be a for instance coming out, but there are gonna be those other ones more, you know that are gonna say hey, we want to see you working and bring people back in the workplace. And there are some jobs that you have to physically be there. Yeah, but if not, I see a change. I see a

definite change in one time. Do you feel that people being in the workspace kind of keeps workplace synergy and energy good? Now, I'm not saying every day, but if you're if I'm thinking like if somebody's in the workplace for like a day, everybody coming to work for a

day or two, I would think that that's okay. Because I'm the type of person as far as work is concerned, I'm in the place where I'm doing a lot of virtual meetings and I'm like, man, I wish I could be in the office with you, because I don't know, it's something cool about it. There are a lot of people that I work with that want to go in, and a lot of the organizations that I consult with

let those people come in. And what they do is they have sign ups for offices, so you've actually the same office every day for the next year if you want to. Right. But those people are more productive. Then they have the other people who say, they say, you can work wherever you want as long as you stay in the US, okay, And so then they give them

the equipment. Right. But there are certain people that cannot handle being at home, and so they recognize that because there is an energy to going and talking at the water cooler or you know, bringing people you know in your office and hashing things out right, you know. So it depends on the personality, depends on the task that they're doing. Now, men, personally, I think they're more productive at home because I really like lunches people, and I

tend to wanders. So you're better at home, okay, and listen, And I think that the pandemic, there needed to be some shifts made, and so sometimes there there are aspects of the pandemic that were for a cleansing in all kinds of ways. But at the same time, didn't we hate all the lives that were lost in the families who I grieve the loss of a loved one who went into the hospital, Oh yeah and didn't come back, you know, Oh my god, there's so many. You know.

What's interesting, My husband finally got COVID like recently, which is sad, right, and he did it over Christmas and he went blind. He lost his sight, yes, no wonder the first self is And so we kind of create a family car bowl and my daughter was helped driving him around and like he woke up and his sight was like negative two thousand are huge? Serious? How is it right now? Now? It's change. He can drive. He's

probably at negative fifty right now. But you can drive with like forty five something and one eye, Like you know what you were saying, And it don't quote. We went back to listening, but he was you know, it really did affect him and and and I can't imagine how he lost his sight, which is really crippling. But imagine losing a life, losing a loved one like you losing the life of a loved one, but and the eyesight, going to sleep being able to see, but waking up blind.

How traumatic is that? Oh, he handle it so well, but he's already a traumatized person. Right, So you got a trauma who's having another trauma, you know, and there's nothing I can say. There's nothing I can say. And I remember looking at him and he is having the hardest time one day. I've never been looking at him, and I was holding his hand. We're lying there, and I said, I know this is hard. I get it. I don't even know what you're going through because I

can't tell you. I've never been blind. Right, Yeah, we gotta make a plan because you have too much life left and you're gonna wasted if you stay like this. Now, doctor, here we go. This is some good talking for a person that's going through trauma. You said something so beautiful. I'm sorry. I don't know what it's like to be blind, but I can help you. Let's make a plan. Right. So, going back to how we treat people who have some compounded trauma, not just oh I fell off a bike,

and skin my knee and that was traumatic. Because listen, as I'm learning, doctor Debra, again, I honor you as the expert. I've been learning that trauma just isn't like seeing an open, bloody wound. You know. Trauma is like you said, you could fall off a bike unexpectedly and that's traumatic. Or you get news, you read a text and I don't know, to me, this is trauma. What if you what if your boyfriend done sent you a text that he was trying to send to somebody else,

that's traumatic. Yes, it is. That is a different type of trauma. Yeah, because trauma is that something that is blindsided, something you didn't expect. Is that it's not the definition. But sometimes trauma and stuff you don't expect. So if you're looking at it like like post traumatic stresses or something like that, right, first, you have to have an event, right and that event has to cause you to feel like you're in danger or your life is threatened, but

you have to perceive it. Okay, So going back to your text message, I perceive this is dangerous. My life is threatened. My livelihood has now changed because man, that's a picture I shouldn't the gut or that's a text. I shouldn't what's gonna happen to my family? What's gonna happen in my life? Now? Do you see where that's trauma? Wow? Yeah,

So it's how you define it. I always tell people that, right, And then there's symptoms that go with it, like you have flashbacks, you get scared, you get anxious, heart heart, heart pounds, you can't sleep. So that's why I remever. I want someone else to find it because I was like, you know what, Like you said something bloody, but imagine you walk over and it's a bloody leg that yeah, right, and that is gonna stick with you and you don't

even know. And trauma is one of those things that creeps because if you don't talk about it, it creeps. It swells, and then it comes out in odd ways like sexually acting out, physically acting out, substance abuse, hitting people, little kids getting anxious. You ever seen little kids to pull out their hair? Yes? Pulling out hair, eyebrow? Yes, Yes, that's all trauma you know that gets My daughter? I love her. She wrote a cook We wrote a cookbook because she was a foster kid. But the first time

I met her, she would carry everything in everything. She go with this backpack and I was like, baby, you don't have to do that. And it took years. Now she has a little clutch back. I'm so brow So I said, okay, we're gonna do something bad room, get some coach, because yes, you can't handle this little plastic lutch. But yes, yes, yes, yes, how it got Oh my gosh, so sweet, so sweet for you to be in the field that she loved, but to still have a heart

that seems to be able to feel in your field? Right? How how do you maintain a heart that can feel? Well, that's all God, I will tell you that, like, this is what God wanted me to do. It's what he made me to do, and that's all I know how to do. I mean, I'd love to be a jazz and blues singer. That's where you can help me head and I can let okay, okay, I'd love to be

the assistant intern, y'all if y'all in here. Earlier I told her, if you're just tuning in, I want to be her intern for the summer because she works in the field that I dreamed to be in. Y'all, friends, Yes, but no that I could be your little singing project. But I can't sing, so it ain't gonna go nowhere. Well, we gotta see because maybe there is something in you that you don't know. You're into acting, maybe we can

pull some of that out. You teach people, you know, how to it's all about the emotions that is friend and how you're able to emote. You know that because you teach that as well. So yeah, well you know what's interesting is that you know, one of the things I say is everybody is listening to love right, And they're like, what does that mean? Well, you can hear me talking. People hear me talking blah blah blah, but are you listening to me? And then when you hear

my words, how do you respond? And if you always respond from a place of love, there's nothing that can come out of your mouth but something that someone can hear or wants to hear because you're listening, taking it in and then responding with love. So that's kind of how I do this. I always listen and say I'm gonna respond with love. And if I think, oh my god, that wasn't I will say, I am so sorry, but that wasn't something. Wow, Yeah, you have been so amazing

and so intriguing. You know when I ask you, how do you still have a heart that feels Because there are some people that have some hard jobs, yeah, therapists, cops, the people in certain leadership roles where you have to deal with a lot of people and sometimes your heart can get hardened, right because of everything that you see, Or you have to make certain split second decisions where you can't have emotions. You have to go buy facts and logic. But it's been a joy sitting here with

you today. If you can, can you tell us about this upcoming project and conference that I'm so excited that you get to share with us. Yes, So I have the Script Conference coming up on July twenty and twenty first the California Endownment the Script Conference dot com, or they can just go to my website and there's a tab doctor Deborah Warner dot net Doctor Deborah Warner dot net.

I also have a show coming out in the CBS UK called Murder Find the Truth and I get to talk about crimes, So look for that if you If you go on my website or find me on Instagram, I'll have a link tree. I'll have a link right to it when it comes out. It's gonna come out, Meg, and you'll get to see all the stuff I'm talking about. You get to see, y'all. I'm so excited. So SCRIPT is Summit on Community Resilience, Intervention, Prevention and Training. That's

what SCRIPT means. And so you can go to the scriptconference dot com. This is going to be absolutely fabulous. And your website again, your personal website, well, doctor Deborah Warner dot net. Okay, okay, we are so excited, doctor Deborah. You've been a joy. We covered a lot of ground. I feel like you can give a great word of encouragement to someone who feels like I've had too much trauma in my life. There's no way I can get

better and have a great quality of life. What would you say, Oh my goodness, that you're valued, that you're loved, and that you can do anything. So good, doctor Deborah. Thank you so much, y'all. She's sitting at Columbia University right now in New York and she's got to get out of here. But she's been such a joy, doctor Deborah. Thank you for checking in. Oh thank you for having me. Yes, man will see you again. Oh my gosh, how awesome

was this? Oh, this was so great, y'all. I promise you you will see me in La spending at least a day with her, Like it's no joke. I'm so sincere because you guys, I never got the chance to shadow the county coroner, because I don't think if y'all didn't read my book, you gotta read it because it tells you of a big choice that I had to make as it related to Destiny's Child or pursuing another field.

I'm not gonna say too much. You gotta get my book checking in, or if you already know what it was, go ahead and DM me and tell me what it was, all right. So any who, I just love y'all, and I hope that you are continuing to do well. It's getting warmer out, you know what I'm saying. Stay well and get some sunshine, all right, Bye? Bye? I love you, And again, you already know what you're gonna do. There's nothing you can do about it, all right. I always

want you to know you're loved. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.