Checking In w/ Deborah Cox

Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. Hey, everybody, I'm.

Really really thrilled.

Humbled and excited to have someone truly special. Our paths crossed in so many different ways. We're threaded amongst people that we love so much, award winning artists. Some is just going on in her throat that I don't. It's so special and inductive into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame. Broadway actress producer. Y'all, welcome, Miss Deborah Cowx.

Hey, thank you for that introduction.

Girl.

You are just awesome. Thank you from another awesome woman, and thank you, thank you.

People don't realize that it just didn't happen and you just popped on the scene. You've been doing this for decades.

I've been doing this since I was twelve.

I was twelve years old, doing commercial jingles, doing background vocals.

Doing birthday parties, doing talent shows.

Like I was a little girl in the neighborhood. That's saying everybody knew who I was and what I did. Summertime block parties, any opportunity to just get in front of an audience or just to sing. You know what, I mean that was my church. I didn't grow up in a church, a gospel choir and that kind of thing. So my church was being able to just be in a setting where I was able to perform and use my God given talent. And that's how I came up

People would assume because of your vocal style that you had to have grown up in the church or some type of bluesy gospelly background.

Right, But honestly, I listened to a lot. I think I would say that I was enamored and engaged in the spirit. At a very early age, I knew that I wanted to do message music. I wanted to do music that was going to be inspiring, insightful, empowering, and it didn't matter if it was quote a gospel song or a song that was of a different format that was just empowering or positive. So I knew that that was the lane that I wanted to be in, you know.

Come on, you know what I'm saying.

I mean, I don't want to fast forward too fast, but I'll go to do you know dogether, y'all got to do a song together and going back to your to the beginning. I love telling young people don't despise you know, you might be being in the background, or you might be assisting the person. But if I am not mistaken, did you for a small time singing with Celine Dion you sang back?

I did?

I did.

A lot of the artists that I sang background for were artists that helped to shape how I wanted to come into the industry, if.

That makes sense.

I mean, I I knew music was what I loved, but I did not want it to be compromised, and I didn't want my life and the way that I wanted to live a life.

I didn't want that to be compromised.

So there were a lot of no's in the sense that I said no to a lot of things because I knew it would require me to just be either gone away from family or away from like my my foundation, and so I would say no to those kind of projects.

Or I would say.

Yes to something that was not as as much as a big starring role, but it was more with people that I like to work with, or you know what I mean.

So a lot of it.

We hear a lot about rejection. You're hearing a lot of no in the industry. The famous thing that I hear sometimes is love you so much, We're just going to go in another direction.

We're going to go in another direction.

You know that co for best code for bye girl bye, we love you. But all right, what you I like hearing where you said no yeaes to some things. And it wasn't always about it. If it was number one on the right, what do we call them? Even on Broadway someone said, well, if Michelle takes this role, her name won't be the first on the board. And I don't care. Just make my name the order.

Of exactly right and let it. Let it be right on the Let let be right on the pay check.

I don't know there's a line on the check. Some of y'all young folks don't know nothing about a check because everything is digitally deposit. But on a check, there's a line that says pay to the order. Uh long is my name in that acne and everything? Your name right or your company company name.

Just just make sure.

That you make sure that that's right, and make sure that those zeros are right too.

You know what I'm saying that is.

The amount the amount of zeros, but you know a lot of I'll tell a story.

There was there was one time that I was paid more than a big global artist. I'm not going to mention the name, but that was when and this was this was really in the nineties, like I was really writing off of that nobody's supposed to be here. So I was doing a lot of shows and that check was right, and I was actually making more than the person I was opening for. But for optics. So I'm just saying. I say that to say that you can't

Which leads me to I was telling your publicis Randy. I said, I just want to glean and get wisdom, and here you are, not knowing that sharing wisdom, not to do things from your ego, which I believe leads to your longevity in this music business.

Right.

You speak to that and some more to that.

I actually learned this. Angela Bassett said something to me when we were working on the Lifetime film, and it was about protecting an artist that we know and love, and I remember her saying that we're here to serve. We're here to use our gifts, use our gifts, and use our talents to serve whatever the piece is or to serve the audience. And so if you have that perspective all the time, then you will always always be in your purpose. Now you don't have to go to

Knowing your commitment to yourself, knowing purpose helps you. And this interview is gonna also be reflective of how I've seen you move through the years. You're able to move, You're able to serve and have purpose, and you don't have like this chip on your shoulder.

You are.

You were inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame, the first female black.

Artist, Yes, first black woman to be inducted into the music the Canadian Music Hall of Fame. And what does that mean to me? Well, when I meant when you say that in the world of Drake being the biggest you know what I mean.

No one believes that, no one can believe.

But I remember the struggle to just see black images on television. I didn't grow up with bet and that kind of stuff, So that stuff came into Canada in the nineties, you know what I'm saying. So it was through listening to my mother's records, like listening to the greats, listening to the record that she had.

That was what was. That was my.

Introduction to R and B and soul music and just you know, Black American culture, which was really impact you know, impacted me and my parents in a in a in a very in a huge way, much like this show The Whiz When I tell people I saw the film as as a young kid. I remember the VHS, you know what I mean, and putting that thing in and going, oh my gosh, because I was obsessed with Michael Jackson and that was the that was the.

Calling card for me to watch it.

And then seeing Diana Ross and I was like, oh my gosh, this woman is playing in a fantasy world. I didn't know that as a black kid you could do that. You could just go off and just dream about this other magical mythical place, you know, and so.

You know, it's only looking back that I recognize all this stuff. And sometimes that's just how the journey is.

It's not until you are past where you have come from that you actually see the path and you see the journey, you know what I mean. So that's why I tell people just trust the process. There's gonna be moments where it's uncomfortable, and but those are the times that really test you and really show you what you're made of. I remember shadowing you when you were doing Aida, and I remember thinking, Wow, Michelle is a part of this iconic group and doing Broadway, stepping away to do Broadway.

That's a big decision. That's a big decision to do eight shows a week, hikey.

Girl, eight shows a week.

Yes, and you are the lead. Listen that show. Hope is no joke, a lot of singing.

You wait, I was put in, I was put in. I came after Tony Braxton, so heatherhead Lee, Michelle Williams, Devorah Cox and if I'm not did Erica Campbell do a stint? And Aita?

I think she was supposed to.

She tells the story she didn't do the show, but Okay, wow.

Wait a second of put In.

I was put in, so y'all, y'all, Okay, we're definitely having this conversation amongst two girls, right, so listen. So put In is basically the show was already on its feet, it's already on Broadway or it's already touring, and you literally are put in the show. You rehearse hours a couple hours before the show. It's kind of like, and I used to feel so bad for the folks who had a show at eight o'clock, but you had to

But you just.

Don't sleep on Deborah, Ye.

Don't sleep and so yes, So.

That's what we mean by putting in So that was when in two thousand.

And four, Yeah, you were put in a girl.

Yes, And I always remember just just how gracious, how kind aimed you were to just showing me just where to go.

On the stage. I never been on no Broadway stage like that.

And you know, you have to, like, I'm a very visual person, and I'm the kind of person that need to be in the situation to kind of feel out just the characters and feel the dancers around.

Me, and that kind of thing I'm not really good.

With, like rehearsal, just in a rehearsal spot and then go on, like I need to be in it at least. So you were so detailed with the direction, you would be like, Okay, you're gonna stand here, this piece is gonna be moving here, you're gonna turn here, You're gonna have to do this is a good time to sip

It's different because the people don't realize. Deborah, you can command your own stage. When Deborah Cox is on the tour, you go from left to right, you go on the audience. If you want to. You can sing from backstage. But I don't know you can sing in your dressing room doing the quick chain, but Broadway you got to be on mark zero, mark two, stage less, right upstage downstage so and the good thing a shows a week. People will think, oh, that's got to be damaging to your

Yes, yes, her.

Production company, which and her and her husband, they are producers of the Wiz.

Now, y'all.

Before the Wiz, Hoddey, she's been bodying a lot of roles. One of the roles that was really difficult was Josephine Baker mm hmm, okay.

And how about that didn't that didn't go to Broadway.

It didn't go to Broadway.

So that it just shows you the journey.

Yes, you toured and the show. They kept saying it's hard to find a theater. It's hard to find a theater, blah blah, blah blah blah. And you did not just to get discouraged, y'all. I believe when The Wiz goes to Broadway. I'm excited about your Tony nomination for many you got to get you win. You gotta get the nomination before you win something, y'all. So we're gonna go with the minimum nomination.

That's right, that's right.

That journey, ben, y'all rehearsed The Wiz. Yeah, you were able to be in it from the ground up. You're not being put in You're actually been a part of the work correction process of the workshop. That's what it's called. The Works of the Wiz. Y'all are on tour right now, y'all tell us how it's being.

It's been really like a great journey, you know, like I feel like I'm in a real amazing cast of people that are super super talented and telling the story in the way that it needs to be told.

The essence of the story of.

The Whiz is We've kept that Amber Ruffin rewrote it and re imagined it. The book is solid, you know. With the set designed Girl. We have Academy Award winner Hannah Beechler who designed the sets. The set is incredible. Then the costumes, I was so excited to reveal my costume because I have been a fan of this woman and didn't even know that we would end up working together. Sharon Davis designed the costumes and they're all incredible.

Every single costume is.

I mean, and I just wear it proudly. You know, she is just her.

The imagination that went into all of the designs are incredible. Jab Well for the choreography incredible, all different styles of dance from all different types, all different genres of music. We got Joseph Jubert, who is you know, the musical director supervisor who is incredible, who was my MD as well. And Shelley Williams brought it all home.

Are you giving liberty vocally to be Deborah at moments?

Yeah?

Yeah.

I think that this is probably the most mythical, magical character that I've been in. So I have complete full range of how I want to sing the songs, and that to me was really intriguing, you know, it means more to me that I'm able to really create a new Glinda than it is, and obviously being a co producer to really helps me know that this investment that I'm making.

Is to continue the incredible legacy of the show.

Yeah, you know, do you know Shelley's IDA history, don't you?

Shelley Williams is id a history. Yes, we were doing the show. You've done the show with show.

She was Maheka has an understudy.

Yes, yes, it came up the ranks, like she knows this industry in and out and has given some up given the cast because there's a lot of new Broadway babies coming in this show. A lot of people were it's their very very first time, and she's given us so many gems to work with to help us maintain that eight week schedule, eight show a week schedule and to keep us, you know, keep our eye on the prize because it can.

Get really tough. You know, it can be really tough dealing with things on the road. You know, we're all away from home, but.

We all have to create our family so that we can help each other and lift each other up during this process because it is a process, you know, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, but it's worth it. And when you find those projects that make you feel it's worth it, then you're good.

I also wanted to mention Kirk.

Kirk Cambridge did the design for the makeup, and he said, oh love, Michelle, is he out there?

He is. He's on the road too. It's a solid team.

Tell Kirk, I say, hello, he designed for Fella. Is a hamp?

Is he?

You know? Now? Hopefully maybe I don't know if he is yet, but you know, he cooks, so.

I don't know.

He likes his soup like a There's a suit that he would like to do and if you're sick, he will cook this suit. So shout out to you, Kirk and Kirk. Shout out to Kirk. And again y'all. I'm not going to hold her along because I'm the type of person doing theater eight shows the week I'd be in the bed, sleep or doing or shutting up. I do want to pivot to nobody supposed to be her turning twenty five years this year?

Can you believe that? I mean, it.

Is so many milestones for you this year.

Yeah, I feel like I'm in a really great space.

Mentally, I feel like creatively, I'm actually.

Doing something that I'm really excited about and then creating it in a different medium. I cannot believe it's been twenty five years since nobody's supposed to be here, but it is what it is. Time just keeps moving and you just got to keep rolling with it and.

Keep moving forward.

And that's kind of what I've always done, you know, kept my circle very small. You're part of that small circle, you know, people that are like empowering and just you know, encouraging, because that's what we need.

You know.

This industry depletes and takes and takes and takes and takes until you have no more, nothing less to get right, you know. So it's it's wonderful to be able to like share and talk to you. And I love this platform that you've created about mental health. A lot of people may not know, but my father was mentally ill, my biological father. Yeah, And when I finally met him late because he was in a whole other country, I didn't grow up with him. But once I found out, I had this this magic this I.

Had this big vision of who he was.

As a dad, and I always envisioned what my life would have been maybe if I was living with him.

But when my mother told me, your father.

Your biological father, is mentally ill, and that was part of the reason why I had to leave with you on my hip.

Just also when we left and had to flee to the Bronx because he came became very violent.

But I say that to say that you know, you can have this vision of or you can have You can be very idealistic about what you think you should be or or what your life should be, and then the reality kicks in and the circumstance that you're in is what forges you to move forward or to make change.

And that was what helped me to kind of just move forward.

It was like, Okay, I made peace with the reality that I would not have that kind of relationship father daughter relationship that I envisioned, and so a lot of it I had to lean on myself. And so when I'm singing that song believe in yourself, you know, when I'm literally singing that to little Dorothy, I'm holding back tears because it's like a mantra to myself.

Had I not done that, I don't know that I.

Would even be here today to be even to tell that story, because at the end of the day, Michelle, like you say, like we all say, once we figure it out, you can only depend on you.

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing, because checking in and the foundation of checking in is about mental health. But I love it's a whole the spectrum of conversations going to so many different directions, and I never want someone to think it's all going to be practitioners and medicinal But for you sharing you you also, I don't know if you knew that knew this, but as I've been learning about how to grieve losses, yeah, acceptance is

I grew up with the Huxtables.

I grew up with, you know, seeing all these shows with the perfect family, and I wanted that for myself.

And so when I found.

Out that there would never ever be that connect I would never have that with my father, I had to make peace with that, and I made peace with it at an early age, and music became much Music was my outlet. I was like, I need to find a way to release this pain or this or grief because I felt like.

I'll never grow up with him, you know what I mean.

Like I realized that this is part of the reason why I'm very sort of clinging. Like you know, my early years, I was very sort of needy, eager to please all the time. I came into this industry, eager to please like you know thisbody, you know what I mean, And it became very detrimental to my mental health and I had to like figure it out. And I figured it out. It was like, don't hold onto the ideals.

And it's a pure want, by the way, it's pure. Yeah, a daughter wanting the love of her father, right, So that is absolutely it's a pure desire to pure want. And have you ever found that the shows that you do, specifically theater, that it mirrors something that you walk through or currently walking through, Like you just said the song Believe in Yourself?

Yes, wow girl, oh yes, yes wow.

And even the shows that didn't happen, you know what I mean, it's all a journey. I remember being told that I probably wouldn't be back on Broadway because I said no to another scenario, another show scenario.

I don't know if you remember this.

But I felt okay walking away from that project. I said, you know what, I'm going to walk away knowing that I gave my absolute best in all to this production and and I'm good with it. And when I and when I did that, it was like, it's okay, It's okay, because you know, when you I feel like the universe gives you what your intention is. Like the universe like knows where your heart is. And if you walk away with evil or you.

Know, that stuff is karma.

You know what I'm saying. It goes both ways, good and bad. And so I've always just sort of tried to live my life with like, just as long as you have good intentions about something, let that be what it's, what it's for, and.

Let that serve you, and then it'll come back in some way, shape or form. You know the goodness of that act, you know, and you.

Talked about this twice in this episode, how you have had to say no. It takes strength to say no. It takes even yeah, and maybe even takes you being clear in your identity, because when you're clear in your identity, it's like, yeah, I won't tolerate this. Yeah, I can't stand for this. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, and it goes Yeah.

You cannot give oxygen to toxicity.

You just can't.

You know, you have to know that there's more for yourself, that you deserve more, that you're worth more, and remove yourself from those spaces, from those places and from those.

People that are going to feed into the.

Toxic negativity that it's just not it will just it will not serve you at the end of the day, and then that in turn makes you not able to serve others.

That's it.

Well, you know, let the church say a man seriously on that. No, I am not gonna hold you because I know you got to get some rest.

Yeah, thank you for just giving us.

Some time and checking sure in the middle of your schedule, so we really really of course I'm excited. Tell us so the winds you're currently touring into.

Yes, we're currently touring.

We're hitting all we're hitting thirteen cities altogether, and then we hit Broadway in April twenty twenty four, so tickets will go on sale in November for Broadway.

So you can buy tickets for Broadway then, And if you do happen to be in a city where you can catch the show, come to either DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Des Moines, Iowa.

La, San Diego, San Francisco.

We're hitting all the city and in Los Angeles and then we head to Broadway.

Then you had to Broadway. Yeah, please make sure you go check out the withz starting my good friend Deborah Cox. The are off. There's so many awesome voices in here. You can ask you about every Wilson, Oh my gosh, all together. But I'll wait to see the show.

No, not yet, but I wish listen.

Yeah, I'll make sure to come see y'all and love all please do. I gotta do the BES edition for the second time. Thank you for being with us today.

Thank you, take care.

Of love all right.

We'll see all right, God blas, thank you, Bye bye bye.

Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.