Pole dancing towards self-acceptance with Nelly Rose

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Your relationship with food. The podcast hosted by me, Kyla Holley. With many years experience as an eating disorder and bariatric therapist, I know exactly what it takes to help you break free from your diet history and develop a more healthy relationship with food. Please follow this podcast to make sure you don't miss a thing. Today we have a guest and our guest's name is Nellie Rose.

She has been a pole dancer dancer and an exotic dancer and I don't really know the difference between the two but she's probably going to explain to me later and prior to doing this she worked in the fitness industry for a number of years. Now welcome, thanks so much for joining me today. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Now you would think that being a pole dancer would mean that you have supreme body confidence but this was not always the case for you was it?

No it wasn't but as I talk about in the book, pole dancing pretty much was the first part of my life where I kind of had a bit of body confidence, I guess. It's a very unique industry. Yeah. So I started when I was about 20. So I was in university at the time and I was making the decision based on the fact that I was very broke and I wanted to either go to the gym or do dancing because I'd always loved dancing when I was a kid.

And then I was kind of like, I'll do pole dancing because I know that it takes like a lot of kind of strength to do it. So that was kind of how I ended up doing it, I guess. Oh, okay. And I forgot to mention in the intro, yes, Nellie has actually co-authored a book called Weighed Down, Unlearning the Lies Sold to Us About Our Bodies. And that's why she's here, basically, because she's one of those ideal people

to talk about those relationships with bodies. And I think you've probably evolved a bit more than some of the rest of us by having the confidence to do what you do. But yeah, I always think about this. I'm not sure whether or not like, you know, being nearly 32 now, obviously Mary and I are in the same age group.

I don't know if it's kind of like an age thing, but definitely the pole dancing industry and then the exotic dancing industry definitely gave me a bit of a, I think a fresh take on body image that I don't think I otherwise would have had. So I'm very grateful that I kind of had the opportunity to have the life experience I've had in my 20s, I guess. And tell me, what is the difference? Am I being completely naive? I understand poles. I know what a pole is. I've seen that.

What's the difference between pole dancing and exotic dancing? No, it's a very common question. So exotic dancing, or I don't mind being called a stripper. So some people don't like the term because they think it kind of pigeonholes what stripping actually is, which is a lot more than just the stripping aspect of it. I don't mind it though. I love my job. So stripping and exotic dancing, that's the job side of things.

So you would work in a strip club. You make money through doing exotic dancing. Pole dancing is a part of that in the sense that a lot of clubs have a podium and a pole. So you would do performances maybe one, two, three times a night and you get tipped for doing that. So it's not a massive part of the job.

It's kind of just an aspect of maybe, you know, the showmanship of the club or, you know, know you can use it to promote yourself within the club pole dancing on the other hand is a whole spin-off it's a it's basically a sport in its own right and it kind of became popular I'd say around like 2010 so that's nearly when I started and yeah that's just it's a sport so plenty of people who pole dance have never done stripping before

and vice versa or there's a bit of a crossover so I obviously had done pole dancing before I stripped but I know plenty of girls who. Strippers and they've never done any formal pole dance training, or they do pole dancing and they've never stripped, or they start stripping and go into pole dancing. So they are interchangeable, but yeah, I'm best of both worlds for me, really. And how long would you expect to have that career? What's the sort of age range of women that you work with?

I think from the outside perspective, people probably think it's a lot shorter than what it is. So obviously, you can start when when you're 18. And I think from a lot of customers' perspective, they're kind of like, oh, you, you know, you kind of got into your 30 to strip really, which is sort of what I thought I started about 26. But I have friends who are like late 30s, even early 40s who are still doing it. I think being a good stripper is a lot more than about just your looks.

Like it is largely a sales-based role. So they have a saying that it's like. What is it? It's talent doesn't work. What is it? It's basically saying you can, if you're a really attractive looking person in a club, you still might not necessarily make the same amount of money as somebody who puts more effort into like how they relate to the customers and their sales tactics. So it doesn't matter how conventionally attractive you are.

That's not going to kind of get you to the end result if you just stand there and you don't kind of have that pizzazz or, you you know. Well, that's the same for every department of life when you think about it. Yeah. So I think from the outside perspective, people probably look at strippers and just think, oh, like you just have to be pretty or just have to be good at doing makeup or, you know, look good in underwear.

But it's definitely, I know from what I've seen, the women that have made the most amount of money, they're very, very, very good at sales. And a lot of them even have backgrounds in psychology and sales as well. Now, take me back a bit though, because as I say, you weren't always this confident with your body.

So there was a section in the book, which I read, which you described as the moment my worth as a female would change forever, which sounds quite pivotal. So what was that moment for you? I think in the book, I am referring to the first time I read a, it was probably like a Dolly or a Girlfriend magazine.

And I remember being given it to me by one of my older cousins when I was probably about 11 or 12 and I think that's the first time I had this idea of you know your appearance being somewhat important I feel like when I first as all teenagers do when you're growing up it starts like with just an interest in makeup and fashion and you know just I feel like it it's just like girls being girls basically you could say but then I think when I was probably probably about 16,

17 was the first time reading those magazines that I started kind of really sinking in the message that like our bodies were important in terms of like your value as a woman. And when I say that, I don't mean to exclude anyone from the conversation.

Mary obviously does a really good chapter in the book about male body image as well, but just speaking from my own perspective growing up and yeah, it was always, you know, they have those little articles about out like, you know, seven minute abs you can do to be more confident in your bikini, you know, all those little taglines. And it started out like that.

And I think as time goes on, the more you see, you kind of have this kind of, you know, that as a female, how you look relates to your value in some way. And that's where this whole kind of really toxic relationship between body image and your value starts. And that led for you to a bit of a sort of disordered eating period in your life. What form did that take?

So when I first started structured exercise, which was when I was probably about 17 or 18, at that time, it was probably pretty objectively healthy. I was still living at home and my mum's a great cook and she's always eating really healthily. So I think I became a little bit conscious of what I was eating, but I was still doing it in quite a healthy way. and people start commenting on you. I feel like when you, if anyone's ever sort of lost weight.

You realize that you get so validated by it as it's one of the things that people really praise you for, you know, it's like you lose weight and all of a sudden it's like people I knew, people I didn't know were like commenting on it and they're like, wow, you look so healthy. And then eventually from that, you kind of think, okay, well, I've lost this weight and And I'm exercising two times a week. Let's make it three. Let's make it four.

And then it's like, oh, I'm prioritizing eating certain food groups. And then it's kind of like, oh, well, I should eat this instead of that because it has 100 calories less. And the more you kind of get involved in the fitness and health industry when it comes to weight loss, I think the lines get really blurred between what is considered healthy and what's considered disordered eating.

So what started for me as being a bit conscious of what I was eating and then, you know, putting a little bit of exercise into my day, it definitely went into eating disorder territory when I was probably about 20. And that was when it went from, you know, being conscious of those things to it then being, you know, the cycle of starve yourself, binge food and then purge.

And that was probably for about two years. is and at that stage I think even I understood that there was something wrong with me but if anyone has experienced disordered eating or eating disorders you kind of lose a sense of control around it like it kind of snowballs and before you know it you're you're kind of looking at yourself being like I know what I'm doing is unhealthy but I don't seem to have a stop button with it and that's exactly what an eating disorder is.

Yeah absolutely and you're dead right this is this is normalized in a lot of those environments. If everybody else is doing it, how do you know that you're doing anything wrong when all your peers are doing exactly the same thing as you are? And you say that there's a sentence that I've pulled out the book because I love it. What you said, because you for a little while had a career as a personal trainer.

Yeah, yeah. So probably about two years I was a PT, but I've been going to the gym and I've been sort of like alongside the industry, like probably eight years. So even though if I wasn't working as a personal trainer, I was still in the gym, you know, being around the fitness industry. So I kind of had a fair bit of experience of knowing how they market to you, I guess, even when I was on the customer side of things.

Yeah. And the sentence you mentioned in the book, which I I absolutely love because bearing in mind, I see so many people that do this and the sentence is an obsession with body image disguised as a passion for health and fitness. I love it. I love that only because we see this so much, so often this idea that somebody has an eating disorder or disordered eating and they disguise that with this, as you say, this passion for health and fitness.

Whereas really it comes from a place of sort of negativity and, you know, sort of lack of self-confidence, I suppose. Yeah. And I don't think people mean to do it on purpose. And I'm certainly not here to say that like, you know, the fitness industry itself is horrible and we shouldn't ever be prioritizing, you know, going to the gym or anything like that.

It's just more, I think people either go into the fitness industry as professionals, either like, A, not aware of their own relationship with their body. I know when I was a PT, when I recovered from, eating. I then turned to the FITSPO movement, which was a big thing in like 2014, 2015, when all of a sudden it went from being like, okay, we don't want to be kind of associated with the.

90s Kate Moss, nothing tastes as good as skinny feels kind of idea when it comes to how we feel about our bodies, because that is actively promoting eating disorders. So it went from being like, okay, well, you can barely eat anything and you can maybe do a little bit of cardio to being like, oh, you can eat a little bit more. Granted, it's from these certain, and I'm doing air quotes, clean food groups. And then you want to go to the gym about four or five, six times a week.

So it's basically doing the same thing. You're not giving your body enough energy for what it needs to do to survive and for you to be happy as well. But then in your mind, you're going, well, I am eating food and I am going to the gym. So technically, that's not a bad thing. But ironically, that fitspo movement created a new eating disorder called, I think it's called orthorexia, which is you have a fear of eating certain food groups.

So yeah, I definitely got swept up in that and was thinking, well, I'm not starving myself technically. I'm not binging all the time. Well, I was still binging all the time even still. But yeah, I think you kind of convince yourself that you're better, but really you've just reshuffled what you're doing.

And it's just a better disguise. It's just, you know, yeah, it's just a better disguise because as you say, you appear to be eating and sometimes eating really, really well, but the exercise is completely negating the food and sending you into kind of a calorie deficit, but just disguised in another way. Now, how did you recover? Did you get help to recover? Or is it something you just realized it wasn't quite right and took steps yourself?

So at some point I had a couple of people in my life definitely noticed that I had problems with eating disorders. And at that point, like bless them. I think that put the pressure on me to stop because I felt like I couldn't do it anymore because I knew that people were noticing that I, you know, I went, I lost 15 kilos in the space of like less than a couple of months.

And it was was getting to the point where you could see that there was I wasn't well and after that I kind of thought I can't keep doing this to myself because people around me are noticing and I couldn't feel like I could really get away with it anymore that was when yeah I kind of started going to the gym and started kind of getting into eating health foods and like I said not the meant the eating disorder mentality didn't necessarily leave but at least I was eating something but I think.

I guess when I stopped having the daily thoughts of being like, what am I eating? How many calories are in this?

Like I can eat this, but it means I can't eat this later or I have to go to the gym for two hours, which is a mentality that I honestly didn't think that I was ever going to drop. I think probably the last five years. So it definitely does coincide with since I've become a stripper that that has come about. And it's a very, it's a very hard thing to kind of explain to people how that came about because I'm still kind of a little bit in the dark.

Like I don't know whether or not it just has to do with the fact that I got older or how much it has to do with the influences from stripping. Definitely pole dancing helped as well. But I today, like I honestly wouldn't have looked at myself when I was 20 and looking at myself now, I don't think I would have thought I could ever kind of heal that relationship with food and my body the way that I did, which is a blessing really. Yeah.

Well, with pole dancing, I mean, strength is obviously a major factor. Flexibility is a major factor. So you're creating a body that can do a lot more. It's not just about how it looks, is it? Yeah. And that's kind of one of the biggest messages with pole dancing was that it's for anybody because people always ask me, they're like, oh, you know, I want to start, but I feel like I'm not strong enough or I need to lose weight or I'm not flexible enough.

But But it's obviously designed, most studios will do their programs in eight weeks. So you commit to doing the eight-week program, which is based on like, it's just skill level. It's just teaching you how to go through the basic moves. And then it's very progressive. The longer you do it, the more tricks where you need to like pull yourself up on the pole or invert or it's very progressive. You certainly don't need a body type to start.

And the great thing is it's like, it's not even, people seem to think it's like a young person thing because they're like, oh, pole dancing. It's like, you know, very sexy. But I really like that aspect of it as well that there's women I've seen in their 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond that are getting into pole dancing. And it's a great way to keep fit. And I feel like I might have touched on in the book as well.

It's a great place for women to embrace their bodies and their sensuality, which I don't think kind of, there's not much space in the world to do that unless you identify as what society deems to be like a sexually appealing woman's body. I like that about pole dancing because it was saying, you know, like you can be whatever body you have or whatever age or ability or weight and still, you know, indulge in your sensuality because pole dancing does a lot of that.

Obviously it has roots from, well, it's founded from the stripping industry, which is obviously like a lot about sex appeal. So I like that it's carried it over and taking that aspect of stripping into pole dancing and putting it in an environment where women can kind of indulge in that comfortably in a women's only space as well. And I like that you brought age into it as well, because as an older female, you do remain sexy. Sex is an important part of your life, hopefully.

I know for some people it isn't. But for a lot of women, it is a part of your life which is very important. And it does change as you get older and particularly as you get into menopause and you've been with your partner for decades and decades, you know, the whole thing changes and goes through different stages and to be able to explore your own sexuality, not in the context of the sex you have with your partner, for instance,

is really important and there needs to be a space for that to happen. Yeah.

That's exactly what it is. As you maybe get older, I think you realize that sexuality and your body and sensuality and the relationship between those things, the more you start realizing that it exists for your purpose rather than other people, which obviously when you grow up, I feel like as a woman, you kind of get this message that your body in a sexual capacity almost exists for other people, namingly men, rather than it does for us.

And the conversations around accepting your, your body as being a sexual body and allowing yourself, you know, sexual pleasure and exploring like the point of your sexuality, which is to be enjoyable for you is once that happens, I think that is also something that helped me with my body acceptance as well as the, is the idea of having your body is for you and your enjoyment.

It's not, it's not meant to be for anybody else. You share it with other people, but at the end of the day, It's about your own enjoyment. And I do think that has actually changed through the generations. I know, because I've got a daughter probably a similar age to you, she's only slightly younger, but I know for her, she's always been quite relaxed and talked freely about sex and sexuality.

My generation, we were the kind of in-betweenies in that it was kind of okay, but you still had to keep a little bit of a lid on it and be a little bit embarrassed and not talk about it too much, going back to my parents' generation where it just didn't happen. Nobody had sex for the previous 2,000 years. How did we all get here? Who knows? But do you know what I mean? It was always such a taboo subject in good society. I'm air-quoting that one. But it was something that particularly women just

didn't talk about. I think the more you talk about, bodies and sex, like you're exactly right. It's like people still get a bit like, oh, like even things to me, like I used to be a little bit weird about leaving my tampons around for people to see, like if I'd accidentally leave one somewhere, it's like, oh no, I'm a woman who has a period.

But I think strengthening that kind of relationship that we have with our bodies isn't just beneficial in a sexual way for us, but just in a general sense, I feel like, Like, and stripping has definitely helped me with this in the sense that I get to see a lot of women's bodies as they are, you know, at the end of the night when everybody's taking their makeup and fake tan and fake lashes and hair extensions off.

Like we're all just normal women that look very, very different with different shaped bodies.

And I think that was, I say that in the book, that was definitely something that helped me with my body image of realizing that women don't, they don't really look like what they they look like on social media or in magazines and that everybody does have imperfections and that's just a normal part of being female but also since I started stripping I kind of it's obviously a very open space like you see each other naked all the time and by extension of that I

got a lot more comfortable about talking about things about female bodies and it's definitely made me it's definitely made me better at being in touch with my body with things like I don't really feel embarrassed to go to the doctors anymore and get a pap smear you know which is such a big thing for people whilst I think the more you kind of get in tune with your body and your sexuality you kind of like you know what periods are normal like these are

things that happen sometimes you know some people have saggy boobs somebody people some people have different shaped vaginas like it's just I think it improves how you feel about your own body and how you accept it and how you enjoy sex as well it's a really positive message and that's why I wanted to have you on today, because as I said earlier, I think maybe you've evolved more than other people.

And by that, I mean your journey from that young teen reading Girlfriend magazine to the confident woman you are today talking about reclaiming your body, basically. It's quite an evolution which a lot of people haven't experienced. So I think it's a really lovely example, I suppose, of what you can achieve with your own confidence.

Yeah stripping definitely put me on the front line seeing the reality of women's bodies and I love that like people always ask me they're like oh do you ever go to strip clubs as a customer I'm like well I'll do it for like once or twice a year as a treat so I don't spend too much money but I'm like yeah like I love women's bodies like I find it I'm still so impressed whenever I see women just being so in control and in kind of like their element with their bodies and being really

unashamed about her. I think... That for me is just, I love seeing that. I love seeing women being women confidently and being like, you know what, regardless of whether or not you, what type of body you have, or you know, how you accept yourself, just women being like, you know, this is who I am and I accept who I am. And I'm very confident in showing that regardless of how other people are going to perceive you. I think it's a really, it's a really liberating thing.

And once you've got it, it's, you kind of like lord that power over people who want to judge you as well. Well and do are there many female customers in the strip clubs what's the percentage would you say.

I'd say like on any given shift like you'll see a handful of female customers come in and obviously they come in with for different reasons like some might be on like hens parties come in quite often and you know they'll they'll probably be pretty interested in having a chat to you about your job lots of women come into strip clubs to chat about stripping as well yeah and then couples come in sometimes. And then obviously girls who like girls who love getting lap dances as well.

So yeah, I think maybe some of them come in not with the same reason that men come in, but yeah, I'm probably like 10%, 5% maybe each shift you'll see girls. It's been fascinating talking to you. As I say, that evolution is what really impresses me, what you've been through, the journey that you've had with your body, put it that way.

And I know this podcast is called Change Your Relationship with Food, but quite often our motivation to change our relationship with food initially is to change our bodies. So it often is inspired or, you know, by that sort of body confidence or lack of confidence that we have. And that's what affects our relationship with food. I'd like to thank Nellie Rose for joining me.

And also I will put a little link in the episode notes about the book, Weigh Down, Unlearning the Lies Sold to Us About Our Bodies and where you can get that book. So thank you so much, Nellie. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for your company today i would also love it if you could follow this podcast it really does mean a lot to me also we have a six-week online change your relationship with food course that you can take just visit www.acfeb.com and click on the acfeb and me courses link there's also a journal and a workbook available on amazon and you'll find that link in our bio. I really hope you can join me again next week. Goodbye. Music.