Call it what it Is with Jessica Capshaw and Camille Lettington, an iHeartRadio podcast. Oh my, oh my, what a beautiful day. Hello, Caamelle Lettington.
Hello Jessica Capshaw and welcome everybody. Welcome. Call it crude to another episode of Short and Sweet.
Keep it short and sweet, Keep it sweet sweet. If I want to make it long and sour.
Long and sour, that'll be. You know what, we can call the other episodes long and sour.
Yeah, maybe a little different one about that. You know, what you just reminded me of as we started was that you are one of the only people in my life that calls me Jess. Did you know that?
No? Yeah? Really?
Yeah?
Who else calls you Jess?
Now I have to know well to be honest, now I'm thinking about it, and I'm drawing a blank.
You.
You definitely are the only person that's in my life on the regular that calls me Jess. Who else calls me Jess?
I feel like everybody on set called you Jess.
No, no, no, that was your own special that was your own special name flair. Yeah yeah, I mean my my family in Missouri say they called me Jesse Jesse. So yeah, I'm Jesse. There, I'm Jess with.
You, Duayne to a revert, try calling Joey.
The reason I thought of it was it's short and sweet. You just you made me. You were one of the first people to make me short and sweet. Oh jeez, oh, Jess, guess what we're talking about today.
M tell me boundaries. Yeah, we are.
Didn't even know what the word was until I was in my thirties.
No one did. It was kept from women for centuries.
Oh, this thing called boundaries. Nope, you don't get to know about.
They're like, don't worry about what that is and look the other way. Yeah.
A boundary is just a line on a map, Yeah, or exact the territory boundary. That's what you learn about.
In history, geography, and movie.
Yes, it's a geography. It's a it's a geography term that that that that that I'm very happy has turned into a what would you call it? An emotional a psychological? Uh, A feelings term that we have started to accept and understand is something that you create in order to let
other people know where you feel respected, safe, understood. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a line between what is okay with you and and then what is not and if it crosses a line, it's not okay with you or you haven't given uh a person or people permission or consented to people crossing it.
Yeah, exactly right, Yes, it is. This. So it's funny because Jessica and I and I'm sure you guys do we talk about boundaries privately, you know, with friends, and we've talked about on the pod before. But this particular episode was inspired by I'm not gonna call her Chapelle Chapel Rohan's statement that came out recently and well, she made some maybe a story of reels initially about boundaries, and she got a ton of backlash about it, and I found it kind of fascinating.
Well hold on, but hold on, just let's just back every one second. So when you say backlash, I feel like that's negative.
I would definitely characterize as backlash.
Right, But I'm saying she got a ton of feedback. Is there any way of understanding because I knew a lot of people that were like, fuck yeah what she said, Like what she said was great, and then I know that there were a lot of people who were like, oh, I don't like what she said. So it was but do we understand it to be predominantly negative how people felt about her post.
I think that she wouldn't have had to feel like she had to release a sort of statement at it after to explain herself further. Had the majority of the feedback been positive. I think the majority or the loudest voices, which can happen all the time on social media, were negative. So first off, we should just talk about what she said,
and then we can talk about our own experiences. And then we did throw this out to the crew, and we can we threw out the boundaries your experience boundaries too, Okay, So let's talk about what she released. And my understanding is that she has been around for a very long time, working very hard, and it's exceptionally talented. Obviously, However, in the past, I love her, I love her, but I didn't know about her up until about six months ago. And I feel like this explosion that has launched her
into the stratosphere of the public domain the world. Yeah, the fame machine is very new to her and so she has some thoughts and feelings about it.
Yeah. Well, it's a seven page slide in which she I mean, this is the greatest thing about social media is that this is directly from her right, so no one's speaking for her. This is there's no filter on this. This is her thoughts to people who sign up to care about what she has to say. So she starts it with saying that for the past ten years, I've been going NonStop to build my project, and it's come to the point that I need to draw lines and
set boundaries. Well, here's the here's the major here's the major point of the beginning of her her her post, which is that she explains that she won to be an artist for a very long time. I've been in too many non consensual physical and social interactions that I just need to lay it out and remind you. Women don't owe you shit. I chose this career path because I love me. It's like an art and honoring my
inner child. I do not accept harassment of any kind because I chose this path, nor do I deserve it.
Yes, people had a lot of feelings. Some of the feedback I read that was negative was was that you haven't been famous long enough to pull this kind of bullshit, and people asking you for a picture is not invading your space or you know, or saying hi to you. And I think one thing that we have to address off the top is it may not feel if someone asked you for a picture. It may not feel to you as a person like it's an invasive thing. But
everyone feels differently. Everyone has different boundaries, and she's letting people know that for her, this is that it does feel invasive. So I think that, like, I think, something we run into all the time is not being able to relate to someone else's boundaries, but it doesn't mean they're not valid.
Yeah, yeah, because everyone's are different. Yeah. I think that that's that's the main and key piece. And I think that it's made really hard to understand in this particular example because I think that when you're in a relationship with someone who you know, it's a conversation. Boundaries are a conversation like hey, can I do this? Would you like to do that? It's a contract you're saying, you're signing up for it when you're in real time with a real person and you can have, you know, a
back and forth where you can understand each other. And in this situation, you know, she's larger than life, and she's on stages and she's you know, on your on whatever device you're looking at. She's she's got this whole other thing that's her performance, which is her job.
She's at work, and also is maybe her persona the it's not her right, Like we have to sometimes like split the artist from the everyday person who's going to get their groceries, who just wants to go out and have dinner with their friends.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is very very different, and I think that that is where a lot of it's like a very ripe environment for people to have different feelings about it, because again, you feel like you have access to someone because they're performing and you're receiving the information, you're seeing it, you're enjoying it, you're loving it, you feel a closeness to this person whatever.
I mean.
It's funny because she goes on to say that she's you know, it's not just that she's not. I don't think it doesn't seem like she's talking about like, hey, can I take a picture with you? She says, you know, quote, I am specifically talking about predatory behavior disguised as quote super fan behavior that has become normalized because of the way women who are well known have been treated in the past. So I mean, I think that that's what is Again, it's a one way conversation. It's her, you know,
her her voice to the public. It's not. No one's in a real relationship here. That's the hard part. It's like, yeah, you can't have this isn't a conversation. And I think that that is what happens quite often in any of these situations, which is what I actually just learned about this, by the way, is parasocial relationships where you're feeling like, oh, I see you. I think this happens a lot on Gray's Anatomy.
I think it does.
I think when you're on a television show where you're in someone's living space and they're watching you, and they're watching you act, and you're creating this character, and this character has the ups and downs and all arounds, and you and and and hopefully if the if the actor and the show is doing their job, they're making you
feel all these things as a viewer. And oftentimes people can blur the lines and they think that they truly know you by the way that you would be your character, and then they are in this you know, parasocial relationship. I again, this is new to me. It was a new phrase, and I but it makes complete sense. I
get it. I have another question, which is just I don't know, thrown it out there, because what she's talking about is very specific when she's because she talks about being a woman and in that you know original quote where she says women don't know you shit, she's speaking as a woman. And and I'm wondering if a man had posted this would be received differently. I don't know the answer to that. By the way, I'm just throwing it out there.
I have a feeling that if my instinct is that if Harry Styles posted something like this, yes, there's always going to be backlash. I have a feeling though, that it would not be received in the same way. Just my opinion.
Well, and it's funny because when you say that, it makes me think of I mean again, this is my interpretation. When you think about you know, the like they give the quintessential you know, like superstar, rock rock and roll, pop star, whatever man or male figure or group band like you look. Do you think back on like you know, the Beatles, until like in Sync, Boys, Men, Backstreet or whatever.
You think about these bands? You think about all the video footage of that made that actually contributed to making them larger than life and seem even greater and bigger and sexier and hotter, which was the throngs of people that were teaching them wanting to be with them, like totally crossing boundaries. I mean like or you know, back to like you know, like slipping them their number, giving them hotel rooms, like total boundary crossing.
No, you think of like Elvis Presley, it's like everything like you know.
Yes, but that was that was framed as like that person was so so hot like these that these people couldn't like, they couldn't stop themselves from you know, how hot these these performers were in So it was a mark of how effectively hot they were. Yeah, And this is a woman saying, I get it, this is my persona, this is who you see, and I don't want that. And she goes on to say she very much wants to be in the position that she's in. She loves
doing what she's doing. She doesn't want the inappropriate behavior and the inappropriate boundary crossing that can occur when you're just a human being walking around the world.
I also feel like, though, what's interesting about this though, is that in her initial story she kind of did say like that she you know, about the picture taking part of it, like she doesn't really feel like taking a picture. Okay, so let's pretend that it wasn't even the super fan predatory behavior. Let's just talk about if she did not feel like taking pictures with fans, like that's just not her jam, she doesn't feel comfortable with it.
It's so interesting to me that it bothers people, like, honestly, why, why would that be something that you really care about? Like if I see someone like Britney Spears, who I love, and I have seen her in real life, I haven't asked her for a photo. If I also knew that she was someone that didn't want to take pictures, it
wouldn't piss me off. I find it so interesting that we feel like once you get to a certain stage, some people feel like they're owed something That is so interesting to me, because even if she's like, you know what, I don't even want to take pictures. It's just not my thing. It doesn't make me feel comfortable. Who cares? Okay, great, Like I love your music, like I'm gonna go to your concerts. I'm excited, but it's not a slight to me.
I have another perspective that I grew up with, which was being the child of an actress and a director and walking around the world with them and having people come up to talk to them or ask for a picture or whatever it was. And again I was a
child and then a teenager, and I'm still today. It was so interesting because as a child it felt really disruptive and to me, again being a child, I was like, this is this is this is this is boundary crossing, right, Like this is I'm with my mom or my dad and someone is kind of coming in and inserting themselves and wanting to take this moment to say something. And
by the way, there's different ways to do it. And sometimes people were really kind and really sweet and very tentative and like hey, you know, and they actually did contract. They were like, may I do you mind if I bought it? And then there were people who were super aggressive and didn't care at all what you wanted or thought, and they just kind of came in And that's and and that's worth mentioning because it's a it's a really big difference. And when I watched it happen as opposed
to if it were to happen to me now. I remember observing that most of the time people thought it was like I didn't see so much like you owe me this picture or you owe me this conversation.
It was.
This is my only shot, like I'm likely never going to see you in person again. I have this one moment and something takes over their body and they're like going for it. They're just like going for gold and something about the impermanence of it, and like the one last shot literally just turns them into someone that's like, well, I'm just gonna go for it. And it doesn't it's just it's just like an extra perspective on it. It's
not it doesn't make it worse or better. I think it's just something that I observed, and I think that I sort of have taken it with me into my life now because you know it because people do come up and you know, either to say something you know, super kind, or to ask for a picture, and it comes at different times, and sometimes it's super convenient and it's the easiest thing in the world to like, you know, like lean over and take a cute little selfie with
someone or whatever. And sometimes I've been holding a baby. Yeah, I can't like put down to go take a picture with someone, but I don't want to be you know, in my mind. I again, I guess this is boundary setting. Clearly I'm not so advanced in this department, but I've found that hard to say, you know, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I'm with my baby that I can't put down and come take a picture with you. And I'm not going to take a picture with my baby,
so oh, I'm so sorry. The times I actually have, which have been very very few, I have been surprised by people's negative negative I'll have that too, and just like not understanding and being either hurt or upset, and and that always weighs on me because I because I'm a people pleaser and I want everyone to be happy. I want everyone to leave every experience happy. But that that that feeling and that people pleaser part of me is it really is. It's like the anti hero to boundary setting.
It's interesting though, because I feel I'm like listening to what you're saying, and I under of course we've been together in these situations a million times, and I get that feeling of like this is my shot. I've felt that way, Like I've seen people that I'm like, oh my god, this if I do it, it's now, right now or never, And a lot of the times I just don't do it because I'm too shy and I'm like, I don't want to do it. I'm too scared.
Always for me, always always okay.
So I feel like, so I get that feeling, I get that impulse. I think that what we need to be aware of and remember is that you can have that impulse, but it's it's this is this is a this is consent, right, It's a two way street of that person also can get to say no in the moment, so you have to be okay with that. And someone like Chapel right now is setting her boundaries really early on, because by the way, we see people enter into the fade machine and completely burn out or worse because of
all of that noise. And if she's able to set her boundary now and cut it out, maybe she has a much longer, healthier career producing all this incredible music for everybody. And she won't tap out early because she's like it's too much. I don't know.
Yeah, and by the way you see it play out,
because you I mean, you see it play again. We already talked about our swifty, our swifty status, you know, I mean Taylor talks about it in multiple documentaries and I think in interviews I've seen where it's like, so, okay, you know, a boundary today is you know, don't touch me if I don't know you, or don't cross you know, an actual physical line to to you know, and get whatever I'm imagining her in her rockstar life right, but not only could because because if that's okay, then all
of a sudden, a fan breaking into your apartment yea,
to like struggle with your cats is okay. So it's like, I do think it's a slippery slope, Like, you know, I think we actually should maybe look at how or ask some questions about how to get a little cozier with the idea that someone's saying I don't like that, like I don't want you to do that, and having that be okay as opposed to you know, having all this you know, backlash or negative whatever, Like why don't we just get a little curious, like, okay, great, I
love chapel rone. I'm pretending I'm someone else. I mean, I love Chapel Roone, but let's pretend I'm someone else. I love her. I love her, I love her, I do anything to be near her. Great, well, okay, what's her What does she have to say? She doesn't want to be touched?
Great?
Well, if I love her so much, why would I try and do the thing she doesn't want me to do.
It's very bizarre. It is really interesting.
I had a lot of people come up to my parents when I was younger, and I just normalized that and bake that into my understanding of it. And so we all grow up and then I end up becoming an actress and then I'm you know, here, there and whatever. But then all of a sudden, I get to a place where people, you know, do recognize me or notice whatever and would come up and say hi or ask for a picture or whatever. I have also had that moment where someone comes up to me with their phone
like to like, will you take a picture? And I've been like, yeah, totally, we do. Where do you want to take it? And they've then said can you take this picture of my mom?
And I, oh, yeah, yeah, I've had that too. Matt's so many times where it's like I'm like, oh god, another one, okay, fine, and they're like could you take a picture of me and my husband? I'm like sure. Or I've had this too. I've had this too, where they're like I know you from somewhere and I'm like I know, I know, and it's like no, they literally know me because I go into Ralph so many times.
Or they think you like dated their cousin.
Yeah, they're like we used to date. We had a horrible first state. I'm like, no, are you sure it's not Joe Wilson Grays now? I mean no, I'm like no, it's actually not that at all. Okay. So we had so many submissions. We're going to read one today on Short and Suite, but we've decided because we have so many amazing ones, voicemails, I mean so much. You guys really came through that. We are going to dedicate a
long episode to this too. So we're going to get into it just with one person this time, and then we will come back. We're going to circle back to this because you guys have a lot of opinions and a lot of experience and stories that you're wanting to share and we want to share it with the rest of the call it grow. Okay, so Carrie wrote, I had to set a boundary on physical touch with my family. I'm just not a fan of hugs or physical touch. As I get overwhelmed, no one in my family listens
or takes it seriously. I just get brushed off for not wanting to hug my family. It's not that I just hate the feeling and I'm not sure what to do. If you have advice, I gladly take it. But I'm struggling to try and enforce his boundary that I have set for years that no one will listen to with countless reminders, it just seems very disrespectful. Yeah, it's super disrespectful.
I get this by the way, I have you my life like this, that this is how they feel.
That they and well, here's the thing that I want to say. We grew up where like uncle Bobby is coming over and give him a hug and a kiss, and it's like it's a.
Kid his voice for uncle Bobby.
No, this is like I don't know whose voices is, but this this voice loves uncle Bobby, and this voice needs you to give him My middle juicy kiss on the cheek, and you're five and you're like, Uncle Bobby's kind of gross.
He smells like listerine and he's.
Not even my uncle. Like, I don't know why we're calling.
We just took a hard right, I'm sorry. Carry back to you. Back to you, my performer in her is my point, Dad, say save the drama.
Save it for the screen. Screen. My point is is that we grew up feeling like we had to give uncle Bobby a juicy kiss on the cheek, and it was expected of us, whether we felt comfortable or not. And we're now so many of us are raising our kids to be like, you know what, you don't feel like hugging whoever today, Uncle whoever, or grandpa whatever, you don't have to, It's okay. And so we're like weaving in that idea of if you don't feel like doing that with your body, no one has to tell you
to do that with your body. Yes, And so I think this is hard. I think people struggle with this though when people have opinions about it.
Yeah, And I think it's also sort of what in your family culture or in our culture or whatever culture you live in, like, what's an expected tradition or behavior, and then it's just sort of indoctrinated and we all grow up in it and some of us bump up against it and we're like, again, yeah, exactly what you said, Like I don't that doesn't feel comfortable to me, or I don't like that, And you know, ultimately what those are, those cultures and those customs, right, they're just kind of
their habits and they are you know, you got you run into the habit of hugging someone or kissing someone or whatever that is. And I think that if I were in your situation, I think that it likely. I
think I would feel more a chance at success. Speaking to my family members one on one, like if you just become the person who's like, oh gosh, she doesn't want to save the drama, right, save it for the screen, like you get cast as the person that's touched or whatever, then the group mentality sort of makes you other and all of a sudden you're like, oh, she doesn't want
to be chou Yeah exactly. But I think that if you actually went to you know, one by one, and you'll know best who to go to first and said listen, okay, Aside from what I know we all what I get from you all. Every time I bring this up, I just this is what it is like, there's something about
hugging that makes me uncomfortable. And if they're a really beloved family member, you could even go into the specifics if you want to, like I feel like my stomach hurts, or I get sweaty, or I don't know what to do with my right arm, or I don't whatever it's. I mean, the more specific, the better I think when
you're trying to explain to someone how you feel. But I think that one on one, if you were able to say to them how you feel that if they love you, which they clearly obviously most likely do clearly obviously most likely I don't know. I mean, don't they love you? But I'm hoping that they do, and I will love you not to make it conditional, but because they love you, they will try harder to understand where
you're coming from. So I think that would be my advice is find them one on one and say like, this is it that I know I get made fun of or I know you don't respect it, or I know you don't feel the same way, but this is really how I feel and I really would like for you to stop and see what happens then. I don't know. I mean, I think that would be my first pass at it.
I like that. I definitely, I definitely agree with the one on one And honestly, if there's a point where they're like still ignoring it, I'm just gonna pretend that I have a cold for the rest of my life. I mean, like I'm sick, don't hug me, yeah, or you.
Turn into the emoji with the two crossed arms in front of your You're like.
No, physically like hand in front of me, like I don't want.
To hug yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're very strange about this all. But I really respect because it's hard to the Sometimes the hardest people just have boundaries with is your family. And I really respect that you are doing it. Yeah man, yeah, please listen, please, family, please be fucking cool.
Yeah.
You don't have to hug Carrie.
No, you don't have to hug Carrie.
Yeah.
The other thing that we do to kids is like, oh, look the look the adult in the eyes.
Really, Oh I don't do that?
Why well that was how I I mean again, the culture and custom that was thought of as like you were thought of as being a respectful younger if you when you met elders, you shook their hands and you look them in the eye. And now I'm like, no.
No, no, that's done. Nope, all right, I really love this episode.
Oh there's so much more to talk about it again, So.
This is this is a teaser. This is really a teaser to the big episode because we're gonna dive straight straight into so many you guys gave us great stuff. We're going to dive into it.
You know what. And I would add also that again I've already admitted that I didn't really understand or hear about what boundaries were for you know, I just it wasn't so long ago. But I've also come to understand that while it's so important to implement boundaries, there's actually a real negative consequence to boundary less relationships.
Oh yeah.
If you don't have boundaries, if you don't do this work, if you don't stand up for yourself, if you don't tell people how you best feel in relationship, there's a very negative consequence. And I think that that's really another way of finding your way into it. If you don't completely understand or you think that this is silly or you're like, ugh, Carrie just doesn't want to be hugged. Yeah, you know so, so I think it's worth everybody. I'm
curious about it. So I'm loving learning more. Love it short and sweet, Short.
And sweet, or we're gonna make it long. Sort of that sounded. So that's what she said. We are going to be back on this. Thank you guys for tuning into our short and sweet today and yeah, thank you. Thank We love discussing these subjects with you guys.
Absolutely all right, let's call that the end of the episode.