True DEI Value in Biopharma with Arcellx's Rami Elghandour

When it's time to map out your clinical course , let clinicalleadercom help , and if optimizing outsourcing decisions is what you're after , check out outsourcepharmacom . We're Life Science Connect and we're here to help . The business of biotech is not a sucker for a good DEI story . Let me explain that . I get the pitches pretty consistently .

International Women's Day , juneteenth , women in STEM Day , black History Month , pride Month and any number of other celebrations of underrepresented people seem to inspire PR agencies to pitch DEI stories to the media . In this business , it's almost always a story about a DEI-inspired biotech leader .

Most of these pitches are garbage , and I realize they're garbage only because I've had a very small handful of conversations with biotech leaders who have actually been able to articulate on the value of DEI beyond the warm fuzzies elicited by an occasional female or minority C-suite hire . There's even a term for this garbage that I speak of .

It's called diversity washing , a play on the term greenwashing , which was coined to characterize companies that spend more money marketing their brands as environmentally conscious than they spend actually reducing their carbon footprint . I'm Matt Piller .

This is the Business of Biotech and I'm going to get off this soapbox now , because Rami Algandour , my guest on today's show , is not a diversity washer . In fact , his novel cell therapy company , arcelix , is killing it right now . Its stock topped $73 in March . Analysts are saying its lead phase two multiple myeloma asset will likely best BMS and J&J's therapies .

And Rami doesn't have to fabricate anything to draw a direct line from point A his rabid commitment to growing a diverse team to point B , a biotech that's defying market trends , outperforming its peers and growing rapidly .

On today's show we're pulling back the covers on that success , getting to know Rami and learning how he's building a company that's not just a colorful mosaic of humanity but fitted out with the best minds in the business . Rami , how is that for a setup ?

And before we get into the meat of the DEI conversation and start ticking , attacking those lines that I mentioned , I want to get to know you a little bit and what you know . What brought you to the business , what kind of forms your leadership style ?

And it looked to me on paper and it's often wrong on paper there are , you know , there's nuance to the story that I don't get looking at a LinkedIn profile , but it looked like you .

You got into life sciences , venture capital , like pretty much right on the heels of earning your MBA at Wharton , um , after doing some undergrad and early work experience in electrical and computer engineering , of all things , um . So I'm I'm curious . It makes me . It makes me curious about those formative years .

What incited or inspired the pivot to biotech and how ?

But I think as we talk and think about cell therapy , there's such an operational and sort of almost like an engineering mindset component to this field that it would surprise most people that there's actually a pretty high degree of alignment between the practical experience I've developed and certainly the experience here at Arcelics , which , as you very graciously

highlighted , has been incredible . But the pivot to biotech for me was a little bit more nuanced . I guess I had a great run at another startup that I was able to grow from about 30 to 1,000 people and take public and had a lot of success .

And after taking some time off I really wanted to think about how I wanted to spend my life and I decided I wanted to spend it on something that changes the world in the next decade , and certainly cell and gene therapies was at the top of that list . Ai was also near the top of that list , but that's what brought me to Arcelix .

I was really interested in oncology and cell therapies . More specifically , I was approached about the opportunity .

The company had developed an early proof of concept but certainly had a lot more opportunity ahead of it , and it was a really great fit for me in terms of the stage of development , the space I wanted to be in , some folks that I've worked with previously and knew and trusted and , as they say , the rest is history .

You know , perhaps , people who are in their undergrad or post-grad work , who are interested in the space , like what should I do ? Should I , you know ? Should I go get an MBA ? Should I start out at the bench in the lab ? Should I , you know , join big bio , get experience ? Like , what are the likely , what are the likely career paths ?

And having having interviewed hundreds and hundreds of biotech founders and CEOs , you know , I tell them , like , all of it , you know one of them , all of them , any of them . Like people come from every , every background or walk of life .

But folks who perhaps have a degree in a related but a different , different field , or maybe come from a different industry , might wonder what some of the keys are to breaking down any barriers , even perceived , to getting into this space .

So I'm curious in your experience , when you decided you wanted to do something meaningful and take advantage of the cell and gene therapy activity that was happening and you said , okay , I want to go , you know , get involved with a biotech .

Were there any real or perceived barriers to this guy who has good entrepreneurial skills and a good business background , making it into specifically bio ?

I found a lot of really open-minded folks that could see the translation of my prior experience and the value it could bring to the bioethics space , and it wasn't just people that I had previously worked with , as in the case of Arcelix , but a lot of people I met throughout the kind of evaluation process that I hadn't known before and were pretty excited about

my background and what I brought to the table .

And so I think that you know to answer maybe your more specific question , like in terms of advice , I think look , I had a mentor early on in my life tell me that at the end of the day , if you do real impactful and valuable work , the results you know they may not show up immediately , but they show up over time , and I felt like the experiences I had

gathered certainly played out that way when I wanted to make this transition . So I think the best advice I can give anyone is to focus on collecting great experiences .

I think too often , like you said , people get caught up into some formulaic thing Like I need to work for a big company or a small company , I need to work in this function or that function , and you know , the reality is that the world is always changing and opportunities are never the same from one moment to the other .

So I think you just need to pick the best opportunities with the best people . That will help you generate the best experiences , and if you do that enough time , I think it both is incredibly fulfilling , as I've certainly experienced in my career , but also can lead to great opportunities . Yeah .

One at that moment in time there was a belief that , from a technology perspective , that algenic CAR-Ts would overtakeake autologous cartees , which is where we play at .

Our sellage is the autologous space , and so a lot of folks , particularly on the investing side and on the public buy side , felt that it wasn't a worthwhile investment of time because the runway wasn't super long . It wasn't a worthwhile investment of time because the runway wasn't super long .

Secondarily , as it relates to the lead program here , which you alluded to has the potential to be best in class in myeloma , there was a belief that we were just too late to the party , there was too many other players or too far ahead of us and that , you know , that wasn't really a clear path to success . And it turns out I felt like that wasn't well .

I thought in both cases the advice was misguided , for reasons that I won't spend a lot of time explaining now . But that was the secondary reason . I think the third reason was , while the stage of development , like I said , for me , was right , there was a lot of risks with the company to find fundraising environment wasn't great .

There was a lot of risks with the company , the fundraising environment wasn't great . There was a lot of challenges within the company at that point in time in terms of turnover and things of that nature . So it was kind of compounding .

It was like the space you were in , even though I saw it as attractive , some folks didn't see that the opportunity that you were pursuing as a lead a lot of people felt was challenged . Again , I didn't believe that .

And then the third component was the company itself was going through some challenges and so when you put a challenging company into a challenging , you know indication in a challenging space that that's stacked up to a lot of no's . But I think that's why you know we were in these positions right .

You have to make hard calls and you have to have the vision to see through some of these challenges and that there can be a big opportunity on the other side . And you know , I have to say you know I'm fortunate that that turned out to be right .

And the conclusion I came to in the autologous versus allogeneic debate was that I think autologous is going to win out and I think that's proven now , three years later . That's very clear as the case , especially in these oncology indications , and so that was actually pretty clear to me .

From a commercial background , I think I was able to see that the market opportunity was sufficiently large Again , that some of these competitors weren't likely going to be as competitive as people thought and there was enough of an opportunity for us at least to build a base case that we can build a meaningful business .

Maybe at that time , and truthfully at that time it would have been presumptuous that you can get to best in class , because we had only treated a handful of patients , but there was the ceiling of being best in class .

That certainly wasn't taken off the table , but there was also a floor of like look , we can make it to market and we can take enough share to justify this as an investment . In fact , arguably the first decision I made when I joined Arcelix was to reinvest and commit to the LEAP program because that was a point of , that was a significant point of debate .

So I'd say those are , you know , primarily the . I think the things that I saw that were a little bit different . I certainly certainly the operational things , while a challenge if you felt confident in the category and you felt confident in your position in that indication I mean you have to bet on yourself that you can manage the operational elements .

I did feel really strongly that there was an incredible scientific core in the company . One of the things I say I'm most proud of is we've been able to retain all those original scientists we call them the super seven to this day , and obviously minus the founder who's departed . But the other core group is still there and helping us drive towards new indications .

And so that part . I think if I wasn't confident in that part , I should find something else to do . I certainly was confident in the , in the operational element , but I also got confident in the strategic elements , if you will .

You said markets weren't great , which is like perhaps the understatement of the year . Markets weren't a tailspin . You closed your IPO perhaps the understatement of the year , you know . Markets were in a tailspin . You close your IPO . Our Sellex has been outperforming since then , as I noted in my rambling introduction .

So tell us I don't even know like how to form the question up in a concise way , but tell us , I guess , how those first 6 , 12 months and the actions that you and leadership took there to position the company have contributed to that outperformance that I mentioned .

At that point in time there were certainly enough folks that told me that was a really risky and dangerous thing to do given the state of the markets , but we were able to pull that off , and that really involved building a management team that can take the company to where it is today . And a big element of that was diversity , as we'll get into .

But I really fundamentally believe diversity is not just the right thing to do but is a competitive advantage , and it's been foundational for me and the companies that I've been involved in . And certainly I would attribute a large to a large degree the success we've had to the incredibly diverse team that we were able to pull together here .

So that was a big part of it too and a big part of where we are today . And then the third one is execution , and you can have the right kind of strategic vision and make hard decisions , and you're have the the right kind of strategic vision and make hard decisions and you're going to have the right people .

But you know they say success is barred and the rent is due every day . You got to just keep keep delivering , and I think that's one of the things we're most proud of is in in a difficult backdrop , incredibly difficult , as you've said . We've been able to do that now for for three years and I'm just going to keep the pedal down and keep it going .

Yeah .

Clinically you're running with the big dogs and , as I said , many analysts have you guys pegged as the leader . Again , it's hard to develop a concise question , but it's like how and what's key , like what are the , I guess , keys to running with that kind of company ?

In our case there's a couple of reasons to believe . I mean beyond the team element that we talked about , and I'm sure we'll talk about more but from a technology perspective , we feel like we have a stronger platform that allows us to differentiate across safety , efficacy and scale manufacturability , which are critical in the cell therapy space .

So that component obviously is really important and we hope to continue to confirm that with future development and future studies . And then , one thing you haven't touched on yet is our partnership with Kite Gilead .

They are the leader in the space from a commercial and manufacturing perspective , which are both not to be understated in their importance in cell therapy , and so having a platform that allows you to potentially differentiate across safety , efficacy and manufacturability , and then coupling that with the player with the biggest commercial footprint and the best track record of

manufacturing scale and delivery , does position us , we believe , to be the leader in the space over time .

You have to again remember when I first joined there wasn't a lot of belief in another company being able to join this party Right , so there wasn't a lot of necessarily interest in this lead BCMA program time , as we delivered more data , as we developed more relationships , as we built the company , developed confidence in the team and our ability to execute ,

certainly that level of interest group .

I think the harder part was striking a deal that worked for us , and I would say that we had the mentality of making sure that , whatever deal we execute , we were treated like a larger company , that we felt like we were equal in the partnership because , again , we had a lot of confidence in our team and what we brought to the table .

And so I think the biggest challenge , whether it was with Kite , gilead or any other party , was negotiating a deal where we felt like we were going to have an equal seat at the table .

That was also important strategically , because we're building this company for the long term and so for us , you want to develop these capabilities over time so that when you have , hopefully , additional hits in your pipeline , you're able to leverage those muscles to actually bring the pipeline programs to market .

So we didn't want to be a passenger , we wanted to be a co-pilot programs to market . So we didn't want to be a passenger , we wanted to be a co-pilot . And I would say , without getting into too much detail , was probably the hardest thing from a negotiations perspective .

Like there's so much more to the to the equation , right , like we want to come to a deal terms where it's not just meeting in the middle but each of us walking away feeling as though we're we've accomplished an objective . And I can imagine that can be pretty tricky sometimes when you're , when you're going into negotiations with companies like that .

The experience with the Kygilliat team has been phenomenal . They're amazing partners . I think one of the things that is unique in our partnership is how aligned our teams are . From the leadership across the board , cindy Peretti has been an incredible leader practicality .

We've been able to really execute it in a way where we feel like you know we're all rowing in the same direction , which I think you know from your experience , matt . That's hard enough to do within an individual company , let alone to do across two companies , one of which is a relatively larger company .

So we couldn't be really more happy with how things have played out . But you needed that foundation of the negotiation as the basis .

But I can tell you , even if we gave that paperwork to two companies and said , hey , this is your deal , it's actually a whole different ball wax to actually operationalize it in a way , and that's really a credit to Eileen Fernandez , our CBO .

She was the lead on the deal , along with Mariam Abdul-Karim , our general counsel , and then obviously we have a broader management team that has been driving it , but Eileen has played a huge role in making sure that that this deal actually , in function , reflects what we set out to accomplish .

The Maryland office has only grown since is only about 30 people and it was mostly a scientific team and I would say , within that , that scientific team , uh , the diversity was , uh , was pretty strong . I would say even the management team was , was pretty good .

But uh , you know , obviously there was , there was always some room to to grow and and uh from there , and we've certainly done that and from there and we've certainly done that .

It's a team of brilliant minds and they're brilliant minds who are diverse .

I had a really strong mom and she was an entrepreneur and she kind of broke the mold in a lot of different ways and so , as I kind of reflect on it , I think a big part of my makeup is just not having instilled a bias where I didn't feel like women can't do incredible things entrepreneurially , leadership wise and so on , and so I felt like that .

That was pretty formative for me .

But in my personal experiences , I'm pretty competitive and obsessive with winning and so once I got into a position where I was hiring people , I just wanted to hire the best person and so , interestingly , I think the first three people I ever hired in my career were all women , not because I set out to hire women , but because I set out to hire the very best

people . And what I found through that experience is that when you hire diverse leaders in particular , you don't have to have a lot of policies and bureaucracy to drive diversity . That example you set tends to propagate throughout the organization and sort of is self-realizing . So I would say like and I'm sure you probably want more , but the highest level .

I think some combination of my formative experience and my professional experiences early on reinforced that diversity was a pathway to success and that's only grown as time has passed .

And I ask that question because , like I could , if I wanted to , I could jump on Google right now and I could pull up stats that point to facts , statistics that point to the value of multiple perspectives , multiple cultural and gender perspectives on a specific business , in our case , biotech perhaps , like patient centricity .

What's the value of having a diverse team like , uh , you know , patient centricity . What's the value of having a diverse team when it comes to patient centricity ? You know different , different cultures , different genders receive and accept , uh , therapeutic opportunities in different ways .

So , like there are people who do research on this stuff , right , and maybe some of that came later . I'm just curious , like if there came a point where you're like I can kind of codify this strong belief and intuition that I have and I need to , maybe or should .

But somewhere around 2016 or thereabouts , I just happened to read a lot of research on this topic and to to use your word I kind of codified it into a talk that I just used internally within my last company , which is here's my perspective on diversity . I think it's worked really well experientially .

But here's the research that backs up all this experiential stuff and why we should be leaning into it . And that's where I got the actual nudge from my teammates to say , hey , we'd really love to share this talk with our friends and our families .

And so , when I had time a couple of years later , I actually did it as a TEDx talk so that it can be shared kind of more broadly . But yeah , there's a ton of research that organizations with women on their boards tend to outperform across nearly every financial metric .

Even papers written by diverse authors and in this case it's more ethnic diversity tend to outperform from an impact factor and citation perspective . So we can certainly get into all of that , but there is no shortage of research that backs us up .

So I would say , yeah , I think the sort of flow is that I think this was certainly informed by my formative years . Flow is that I think this was certainly informed by my formative years .

It developed through intuition and experience professionally , and then it was cemented through research that really mirrored and supported those first two positions , and now I'm in much more of a position to I don't know if evangelize is the right word , but certainly to be pretty vocal about it amongst other topics , because I do really believe that it is beyond the

right thing to do . It is a massive competitive advantage , particularly as it relates to gender equity , and it's something that not enough companies take advantage of .

And it's something that not enough companies take advantage of , and in fact , I get called from companies , big and small , to talk on the topic , to consult on , helping , you know , figure out how they can improve their diversity and their retention , and so it's something I've been pretty passionate about and certainly invested a lot of effort into .

Um , you know , I mean you can , if you wanted to , you could have Tuesday talks , right , you could do workshops , right , like you could bring consultants in and , and you know , maybe that's fine , maybe that's good , maybe that's a great starting point for companies who are are not as convicted on the concept perhaps as our sellex is .

But but you , the way you paint it , you know , it's more of a story of just naturally , sort of weaving the acceptance and belief in this into the culture . And I'm curious , like you know , without a roadmap , how that happens . You know , does it happen ?

Does it begin to happen at the board and C-suite level and just sort of matriculate , you know , through the management and down levels , like what sort of the ? I don't know , I don't know if I'm asking .

And it might it is not in a forced way , like you're saying , in terms of , like you know , holding talks about it or so on . But we'll be in a debrief .

We'll have interviewed , say and this is a real example two candidates , finalist candidates , a male and a female , and we'll go through the debrief and I'll hear things like the male candidate has more technical experience , or they have more of this or more of that .

And I'll look at the resumes and say , curiously , it seems like the female candidate actually has more technical experience . So why do we think we're saying that ? Is that a bias that we're expressing through the interview process ?

And so , you know , by being informed enough , particularly as the leader in the organization , to sort of bring these topics up when they come up right . Again , not in a forced way , but in an organic way . I think that's one thing that opens people's eyes , it's educational and it helps us make better decisions .

Also , it's important to me in the sense that I don't look at any just individual role . I look at the composition of our management team , and so there are some points where I've said , look , I'd really like to get a woman in this particular role . Now you know if you I don't know if you're familiar .

I used this joke recently because I had a trip to Costa Rica where I learned about this wonderful , wonderful creature called the Jesus Christ lizard . You're familiar with the Jesus Christ lizard ? I'm not . It is called the Jesus Christ lizard because it literally runs on water , and so this is going to get into a deeper point . That is really important .

So I will say to the recruiter look , my goal or desire is to get a woman in this role . Now , if you get a man that is as Jesus Christ lizard , that I will happily interview them .

But what I interestingly find because you brought up DEI and it's one of these things that is infuriatingly under attack for reasons that have nothing to do with DEI , in my opinion .

But one of the core arguments against the EI is we have to lower the bar to actually hire diverse people , when in fact , we actually need to maintain the bar , because what actually happens in my experience is that if you are a no offense to you , matt you're a great guy , but if you are a middle aged white guy , you are more likely to get a job , not

because you're exceptional , but because of the virtue of privilege . Over time accumulating to that , you have gotten experience that maybe have put you in better positions , even though you're not bad , but you're maybe not the most exceptional candidate . So what I say is like let's actually keep the bar high across the board .

Right , we're only going to hire exceptional people and by doing that , I've actually found that I've hired a fairly diverse team , rather than this conception that we're lowering the bar for diverse folks , because , in fact , diverse people generally have to outperform in order to get the role right .

They have to really stand out to overcome the bias , to overcome the lack of privilege , to overcome the limitations that they often face . So , to the point where they're getting into these leadership positions and conversations , they're actually quite exceptional .

So what I say is like let's keep the bar high right , let's keep it high for both candidates and let's see who can actually clear that bar .

And look , I've obviously hired all sorts of folks , including white folks , brown folks , black folks , diverse religiously diverse , ethnically American , not American that just keeping the bar high you actually get a fairly diverse team across the board without actually having to necessarily prescribe it .

I'll get on my soapbox , but this is a really , I think , a really important point .

Right , like are you ? Are you creating challenges ? Is it more challenging for you ? Are you creating challenges that perhaps cause some friction or pushback with your shareholders around saying , okay , like , we're going to maintain the bar ? Exceptional is requirement number one . Requirement number 1.25 is diversity . Perhaps right , we're going to make that a goal .

Is the perception that the supply of female , as an example , or minority , as an example , pick minority is the perception that the supply of those people into this business with the technical capacities to be exceptional , that supply is low . Right , like you . Go back to what's going on in grade school and high school and college to encourage STEM .

You know , in the female population . You know that not being enough to maintain supply of exceptionalism in female and minority candidates .

So I think the system works right , like if you do hire exceptional people , you get diverse people and those diverse people lead to better results . So I think it depends on what people's you know timeframe is . If your timeframe is , you're in it for the long term and you want long term growth and success . It's worth that .

To me , it's worth the investment in time . The other thing is you have to be prepared to counter the bias that is intrinsic in this particular thread , which is that I'll meet with a recruiter and say what I said earlier , like , listen , I would love to really hire a woman or a minority or whatever it is in this particular role .

And they will say , well , that's going to be hard because the pool is constrained .

And I'll say , well , I've already done a search and there are X number of people that I found myself that fit that mold , and so you know it's not impossible , right , we can agree it's not impossible , it's going to be harder , but that's why I got to earn your paycheck , right .

If , if , if you're not willing to do that , then it's like what am I hiring you for ? Because I can find regular people that are close to the office myself .

So I think it does take a little bit of you know , maybe a little bit more legwork , a little bit more of challenging , a little bit more holding people accountable , but I would say the results are well worth it .

Like you get to a point where , like we're going to need a regulatory expert , we're going to need a legal expert very early on , later in the game we're going to need commercial expertise , market expertise . So you need to time that correctly in correlation with your timeline .

It sounds to me like perhaps there's got to be at least some conscious proactivity at Arcelix around . Yeah , we may be signing ourselves up for a protracted recruiting phase here for this particular candidate . Do you have to be conscious of that and work that into sort of the hiring cadence calculus ?

But you know , in a position like that , it's well worth it , right , if it takes you an extra two or three months or whatever it is like . If you do a search like that and you really want someone exceptional , it's going to take some time anyhow , just based on availability of people and number of people who are qualified and all that kind of stuff .

But in terms of the day-to-day of like filling this role or that role , it's really not . It's not come up as an issue at all or a consideration . Part of it is like , if you're going to do this , you really need to to build like an exceptional talent organization and it won't surprise you .

But that's also led by a woman , michelle Greer , who is exceptional , our head of talent . So , yeah , I think you build for it . Like you can't . What you can say is look , I want exceptional people and I want them to be diverse , ideally , but I'm not willing to invest in having exceptional talent people .

I'm not willing to invest in having an exceptional management team that helps draw out that talent . I'm not willing to invest my own personal time in doing that . I'm not willing to invest in the resources of maybe paying for the search firm to do it .

I think that's the challenge If people you know this is a deeper conversation about strategy , but one of the core . If you go read Michael Porter , you study strategy . One of the core concept of strategy is fit right . Even if you have a bunch of activities that you're good at but they don't really fit together , you're not likely to realize a lot of success .

So in this same , in this same sort of vein , like you can just take an organization that is ill fit for diversity and we should talk about inclusion too , because that's the other core element and just say look , we've decided tomorrow to hire a diverse team , but if your organization isn't uniformly exceptional , you don't have a strong talent team and your management

team isn't diverse , that a diverse person will want to join that team , then you're not likely just by making a decision to suddenly transform the organization . It's like the whole organization has to be purpose-built to do this , and if it is , then it's really like it's not something we honestly think about .

Right , it just happens organically and we meet our timelines and our growth , and it's just great yeah , does that make sense ?

I've been able to do this at least twice now where I've seen the direct results of these incredible people really kind of change the business and change the world . And so that's on the macro level . I think the results are evident . I mean , it's clear that I'm not doing everything myself here .

We've got a great team that's doing a lot , and I mentioned some of those folks already , some of those folks already . But I would say , on a more micro basis you mentioned this earlier , but I will tell you , the interactions within the company and even across teams are so much better and different because of the diversity we have .

I would say that because the management team in particular is diverse . The policies and everything , the decisions you make create a more inclusive and inviting environment that allow us to also then build on that and hire more diverse , exceptional people across the board . So I would say you can see it in the results , you can feel it in the environment .

I mean one of the things we didn't talk about is both how incredibly diverse Arsalex is , but also like how much recognition we've gotten for that and how much recognition historically my organizations have gotten for that .

It's not just even the business performance , but it's the environment that you create , the joy people take in their work and how much that influences your ability to continue to get more and more exceptional talent .

What do they say ? You know two things you never talk about at work religion and politics . It's sort of unavoidable right now . You talked about how our cellex is a melting pot of religious beliefs . How do you manage that ? Like ? How does that relate to inclusion ?

There's such a focus on diversity , but putting a bunch of diverse people into a company where they don't feel like they can uh , they're part of the fabric of the organization . They can ascend and grow that , they can be who they are and bring themselves their whole selves to work , is not really that effective .

So one of the things , one of the pieces of research I cite in my in my talk , is that there's one particular organization where , you know , somewhere around 40% of the entry-level workforce was female , but only like 20% or so of the top layers of the organization were female . And why is there that drop-off ?

And one of the theses that was tested there was that women opt out , or their behavior or whatnot kind of drives that differential .

But upon research and inspection , it turns out that the behaviors of women , from participating in meetings , from who they spoke to , for how they communicated , where they communicated , all those kind of things were equivalent to men , and so really it was the bias that was holding them back from advancing , not their behavior or their performance , and so I think

that's where inclusion is really critical . It's not just enough that you have diverse people , but you have to have an environment where those diverse people can do what they do every day . So that's a little bit different than I think the question you're asking .

The point I was trying to make was that if you don't and the best way to drive inclusion is to really have a diverse management team where people have a seat at the ultimate table , because what I see a lot when I get calls from organizations to help with diversity , it's helpless .

And I go on their website and look at their management team and what you said earlier the whole management team is middle-aged white guys , management team is middle-aged white guys , and so how are you expected to foster an environment where a diverse group of people can grow if you don't have that representation right at the top , that inclusion right at the top ?

It's unlikely that that group of people is going to come up with a great maternity policy . To be honest , right , it's just unlikely . It's unlikely . It's not impossible , but it's unlikely . It's unlikely . It's not impossible , but it's unlikely .

It's unlikely that their programs or health insurance , all these different things are going to be responsive to an increasingly diverse workforce . And I think that's what's challenging and it reinforces the point we just talked about . It's just not a light switch , it's not something you can just do in isolation .

You have to be committed to it , and the only way to be committed to the very first question you asked is to actually believe it , and you believe that , through experience and through research , right , that reinforces that this is something really important .

I guess the question would be if you were going to get it ?

We'll frame it this way If you were going to give advice to someone who you know wanted to embrace this commitment , recognizes the value and was ready to take the next step , but you had perhaps a warning , you know , not not a warning like hey , hey to dissuade , but a warning like hey , you're going to take some incoming . There might be some incoming here .

You might create some friction or challenge for yourself in some relationship with a shareholder , as I said , supplier , outsource , manufacturer , whatever it might be , shareholder , as I said , supplier , outsourced , manufacturer , whatever it might be .

Have you seen any of that and what advice might you offer to prepare for and perhaps mitigate any of that friction that you might encounter ?

To say that I've seen , aside from obviously it was used to help oust some university presidents or in conjunction with that , but I haven't seen it practically , certainly in biotech or more broadly .

I do think , yeah , that probably if you were inclined to say you listened to this podcast or read something , you're like , hey , I really believe in this , I want to enact it . You know you probably are thinking , yeah , well , this has become a bit more of an explosive word and you know , should I be worried ? I'm not sure there's much to worry about there .

I think that has been more high stakes politics than in sort of the day-to-day life of what we deal with in terms of what we do . I would also say that it is increasingly clear that from an ESG perspective , that shareholders do care about diversity . It's something that you know is getting more and more attention over time .

So I would sort of ignore the bluster of what is happening in this moment in time and focus on the fact that , again , it is a competitive advantage .

It is the right thing to do and I think it's with the grain of where you know companies are going and where funds and shareholders are going to care , even if at this moment in time it's a little bit challenged , and I'm a big fan of doing the right thing , you know , over the arc of the long term , even if it's a bit unpopular at any point in time .

One , I determine that they're a fit from a product and technology standpoint , and then , two , I you know , my friend Alan Shaw , who's a frequent guest on the show , always talks about betting on jockeys , not horses .

So I go look at the jockeys , you know , I go to the About Us , the leader profile page , and you know , it's anecdotal , I don't sit there with a tick sheet , but in biotech and small biotech , you know , there there are a lot of companies that are as vanilla as they possibly could . Could be . If , if , if .

If some of those leaders were exposed to this concept in a meaningful way and warmed up to the concept , warmed up to the idea , but perhaps lacked the conviction that you were more or less born with or the education that you've acquired along the way that many of us have , where would be a good starting point ? We'll start with you .

Maybe we'll point to your TED Talk . For some reason .

Even if you have kids or have children , that's important . But I would say , besides the inclusion point we touched on , the other really important point in that talk is that it's important to actually address both men and women when talking about this topic .

I think there's an intrinsic sort of bias or belief that this is a male issue that we have to overcome , the biases on our male friends and colleagues .

But I can't tell you how many times I've given that talk to a live audience and the gasps you hear from women at certain parts in the talk because they themselves don't appreciate how much this bias has infiltrated their thinking and their viewpoint on certain issues .

And so I think that , and maybe that's a good point to make , which is that if you particularly are a male leader and you feel like this is a topic that is important , besides watching a TED talk is engage with some colleagues , particularly female colleagues , and say hey , you know , I'm interested in learning more .

I want to hear more about your experience and what that's been like and maybe we can , you know from that experience , start to make some steps right , address some of these things so other women don't have to face . I'm focusing on gender equity , but obviously this is broadly true of diversity as well . But I think just starting dialogues .

Dialogues lead to connections . Connections lead to bigger networks of support , bigger education and , ultimately , enough conviction to make a difference .

I hadn't heard that term before , diversity washing as you called it , I hadn't heard that term before . But it's hard to do this if you're disingenuous and it's a little bit , to use my electrical engineering degree here , it's a bit binary right , like you can't be sort of halfway a little bit .

It's like you either really believe this is important and you're going to kind of follow through on it from a diversity perspective , from an inclusion perspective , from a yeah , holding the bar high across the board and making sure that you are committed and you're going to be authentic to yourself . I think we talked about this before .

I'm the kind of person where this isn't the only topic I talk about . I tend to talk , you know . I talk about everything from abortion to Palestine , to Black Lives Matter to you know , I think you have to be yourself Like you have to be authentic , you have to believe in what you believe in and people will really , really .

I don't like using the word follow , but it certainly resonates with people and even if you don't have the same point of view on something , that's okay , like it's important to be respectful . It's important to say I respect that you can have a different opinion .

For me on this topic , this model , it was perfect because it was like graduation year , and there's this monologue where this guy was kind of giving life lessons to the background of this music , and one of the things that always stuck me was that something along the lines of like , life is a race , but you're only racing against yourself .

You know , just because someone doesn't agree with you today doesn't mean they may not see your point of view tomorrow or you may not see their point of view tomorrow , right ? So I think people need to . If there's anything I've learned , is that you need to give yourself grace and give other people grace .

You know , sometimes it's okay if someone takes a little bit longer to maybe appreciate your point of view , or you take a little bit longer and rethink it , appreciate their point of view . But time is a magical thing and something that not enough people take advantage of .

Might be to get a better candidate , but it also might be to learn a more valuable lesson or perspective .

It's interesting , you know , if you're a listener and you're at this point in the podcast listening and you're like but what about our SELEX ? I didn't hear the next steps for the pipeline . Just a disclaimer . Rami told me in a previous conversation it's okay if we don't commercialize . They make this a commercial for our Celex .

The profile of the company is such that if you're really interested in that , you can spend 20 minutes on Google and you're going to have a whole bunch of information . But I do want to touch on that real quick before we wrap things up here . Rami , I am interested in what , from a leadership perspective , is your kind of next highest priority at Arcelex ?

And you know , we've got it to be on the market in 2026 . We've guided to being on the market in 2026 .

And so that's something that , as we gear up over the next couple of years here , it's going to be a really fun ride , scaling this organization for commercialization and ultimately delivering this therapy more broadly at scale , and so that's kind of the high level in the program .

There are other studies and earlier lines and all sorts of things that we're working on , but for the teaser , for your audience , if you will , is that . And then obviously we're we're also equally excited about our pipeline .

We have a really differentiated technology which we didn't get into for the reasons that you and I mentioned , which is that we're very passionate about talking about other things , but people can certainly read up on that and we have a study in AML that's in phase one right now we're excited about and hoping to bring some solid tumor targets to the clinic in the

next couple of years . So , all in all , just super fun company to be a part of . We're always obviously growing and recruiting . So if you're if I'll put a commercial for anything is if you're , if you're interested in what you heard , look us up and you know , if there's a role you know , hit us up and uh , we're always .

You know , we've got a lot , a lot of amazing people here , a lot of what to chop in the next couple of years to continue to build this company into what we believe can be the first scale , uh profitable company in the self-therapy space and uh certainly help a lot of people and save a lot of lives .

If you're interested in getting in touch with our sellics regarding employment , just do a right angle check on your exceptionalism before you apply and , to be honest , I would love to have you back on the show another time to talk a little bit more about what the company is doing , though I strongly suspect that if we attempted to do that little bit more about

what the company is doing though I strongly suspect that if we attempted to do that , we'd probably run down a rabbit hole around some social issue . Anyway , but I would welcome you back .

I know it's a lot to cover in an hour and there's much more to be said , so hopefully someday down the road you'll be game for coming back on for a part two , but in the meantime again , insightful , instructive , inspiring . I appreciate the conversation and I appreciate your transparency with our audience .

I invite you to subscribe to the Business of Biotech podcast anywhere you listen , leave us feedback and a review , and be sure to subscribe to our monthly newsletter at bioprocessonlinecom . Backslash B-O-B In the meantime . Thanks for listening you .