[00:00:00] Kham: Growing and scaling a business is complex. It can be very scary and lonely trying to navigate it all. It comes down to the community of trusted people. You surround yourself with let's dive in to the business people podcast.
Hey, Quinn, excited to have you back. Today we're talking a lot more again about how to convert more quality leads, you know, for the traffic on your website and to get more granular, we're really looking to understand, how to avoid
losing a user with the wrong flow of information now. Cause you're, the queen of UX and CRO, and the CEO of conversion crimes. So let's, let's hear about it from you cause you do tons of these types of testing. So what are the main things you're seen as, as, either know, not done well or just really poorly done, to really help a user understand the information so that they can get to where they need to be effortless.
[00:00:53] Quinn: Yeah. So there's kind of two parts to this. One of it is like the visual hierarchy, how you're displaying the stuff on the page. And if you're leading people to the most important thing first, and then the second thing and the third thing. So visual hierarchy is the. Um, I kind of think of it as like a volume knob for your website.
So the most important thing should be at max volume. So it's the biggest, the boldest, the most attention grabbing thing. And then what's like the next piece of information they need to use. Well, maybe that's like a little bit smaller. We're going to turn down the volume a bit, so they're go. Kind of go 1, 2, 3, and then, um, the other part of that is kind of the flow.
Are they getting, the information that they need in the order that they need it? And one example was that was we bran, um, On a e-commerce site. And we're asking you to like check out before you be like put in the checkout information. So it was like the button to check out was on the top left and then the information to,
you know, make your selections or whatever was in the bottom. Right. But it really should be like, the button should have gone underneath. So you fill in the information and then the buttons there that's the flow versus they're filling out the information here. And then they've got to go all the way to the left side, which is not really the normal place to put a checkout button.
So, this is like one of the biggest things that we kind of see , on sites.
[00:02:23] Kham: So Quinn, like, why do you think pages are designed like that? Like who. Who, who do you see as the abuser of that? Pretty often, like which, which, which department of which person, which role everybody.
[00:02:40] Quinn: I mean, you know, we're all just like business owners and we want to get stuff done.
So we just like do it and we execute and we get it out there and we're trying things. But once you kind of get stuff out there, you want to make it better. So it's about like finding out how people are using the information. Are they able to find the things that they want to find in the flow that they want to find it?
So it's just like, you know, sometimes you just execute and push stuff out and you don't really put a lot of thought into it, or maybe you just don't have that kind of knowledge. Like not everyone is great at user experience or design and they can't like see these things. So maybe they're just oblivious.
So, Yeah, we do. It's just a pretty common thing.
[00:03:23] Kham: No, I'm not trying to pick on anyone. It's just, I'm just curious because like you know we both work with so many different people, right. When we're looking at like optimizing, you know, CRO conversion rate optimization of a site and it's a mix. Yeah. A lot of times it's, it's either, you know, a, a person who's not a graphic designer, who's just a content person or a social media person who shouldn't be touching the site.
Um, but that's not the fault of the business owner because they only hire, they only have. You know enough, they can only hire one or two people and then they have to, so eventually, you know, you have to outsource it or you find software or it's the owner doing it. And sometimes we see that the owners are trying to be marketers, because they're so close to their brand and you're like, you gotta let it go a little bit.
And you kind of trust people to like touch your site and you also see people. who was like, it was their cousin who did the site and they don't want to say anything.
[00:04:13] Quinn: Yeah, exactly. Then sometimes like, you know, you just, yeah, you just kind of build it and put it out there and you know, it just happens and it's okay. The thing is, is that, um, when you were doing it, it's like, you know, that you're putting something's there. So it's like, I know how to use this. You know, but you don't really think that when somebody else comes to it and they look at it, they're like, well, I don't know how to use that.
Why, why is the checkout button in the top left corner? Like that makes no sense, you know? And when you can see people like confused with it, then you'd be like, oh, okay, well, it made sense to me, but nobody else is understanding that. So
[00:04:52] Kham: Like organized chaos, like my desk. I know where everything is. My wife is like, why does your desk look like this?
I'm like, don't touch it. I know exactly where things are, even though it's messy.
[00:05:04] Quinn: Exactly. Like someone else comes to look at, they're like, where's the black Sharpie
[00:05:10] Kham: right here. Like I lift up that paper and like it's right there.
[00:05:15] Quinn: Yeah. But they wouldn't think to like, look under the piece of paper for it, then it'd look at the pencil holder.
Right. We're normally that kind of stuff is right.
[00:05:23] Kham: Yeah. You know, I've come to this realization, even from a content standpoint, from positioning, they say right as a fifth grader level, and I've done this with my daughter who is eight, and I'll have her look at some websites we built, or even like a landing page layout.
Tell me what this is or find this for me. What do you feel like, you know, that idea of like, just keeping it simple by giving it to like a kid or someone just completely like, has no ties to your business? Like, what are your thoughts about.
[00:05:54] Quinn: Yeah, it's great because there actually used to be this, website.
Maybe it's still out there. It's like the user is drunk or something, and this guy would like literally drink beer and then do like disability tests on the site. And he's like, your site should be so easy to use that a drunk person can figure it out. And it's great because you're like what the thing is, like you want the experience to be frictionless and intuitive, you know, that's one of the reasons Steve jobs apple did so well, because it's like, you don't have to read a manual to understand how to use an iPad.
Like a five-year-old kid can pick that up and intuitively. Like know kind of what they're doing or when they're playing games or what have you. And that's what you want your website to be. You want people to intuitively know where to go, to find information and for that information to be in that spot.
So to kind of like really understand that. Yeah. Yeah, watching people use it for the first time, because it's like, we kind of talked about like, you know, where everything is on your website, you know where to look things, you can do things quickly, but you don't know what it looks like to someone that's viewing it for the first time.
And can they find that information? Are they going through the right flow or are they getting what they need at the right time? Um, so yeah.
[00:07:09] Kham: Yeah. I've run into this looking at just like concert tickets or just trying to buy tickets for something right. You want more like I'm scrolling or I'm looking around, I'm like, I need some more information.
I need some more pictures. I need to have some more validation, but then like, that's it, that's the end of the road. It's like buy now or book now. And I'm like, no, I need more information you guys. So I think having these feedback loops, you know, through user testing, like what you guys do, or just even talk to them.
All the folks. Um, I think it's so important because you want to make sure you meet the clients where they're at. Right. And everyone has different needs. Some people need more information, so he weighed less. And one really good tip I got from, from a mentor is you want to provide three forms of ways for people to consume written verbal and audio, because that's why you see videos on websites.
That's why you see graphics, right? Cause they explain complex things in a graphical or animation or written, cause some people just prefer to read it and they don't want to click the link. So I think sometimes people assume like I had a video there. Why didn't they understand it? Well, did you transcribe what that video said?
And like explain what the summarize that video or so I think having a mix of information, so you kind of meet people how they want to consume content will help create better coverage.
[00:08:28] Quinn: Yeah. And like going back to that, it's also to have the hierarchy of the info, even the written information, you know, so people can skim right.
And then be like, oh, this is the information I really care about. And then they're going to read those like two paragraphs or whatever, if that makes sense. You know? So there's like the headlines, they can skim those. And they're like, oh, I want to know like where the vent is. If they're like whatever sustainable practices or whatever questions they have about it.
Then they can kind of skim find, oh, here's our lake sustainability, whatever. Then they can like read about it. Um, and find that information pretty easy.
[00:09:05] Kham: Quinn do you have, um, kind of like insight from a analytic standpoint? Like, is it a 50 50 split, like content versus graphic? Like what, what do you see as like the magic blend?
Cause you know, some sites have a lot of content from others. Tech standpoint versus, and some people just aren't photography heavy.
[00:09:25] Quinn: Yeah. it depends a lot on the audience really. , and what the audience is looking for. So, um, like you said, I like to have a good mix where you're making the flow of information, enjoyable.
People can skim it, they can kind of find what they need. But as far as like doing like video versus heavy content and, stuff like that. It really depends on the audience. Like if you have a photographer audience then probably want a lot of beautiful photos. So like big taxed and like things like this, where if you have a more like technical audience than they want to get into, like those nitty gritty details and the content.
Right. And so I would just say that that depends.
[00:10:12] Kham: No, no right spot on that's because you have your, if you're, like analytical and techie. Like it's gotta be, you're looking at a scientific, more type of page research page. Right. So, all right. Any last year. Kind of words of wisdom that you feel like is the quickest wins.
That if someone's still doesn't hasn't done any testing. Now what's the quickest, easiest way for them to kind of look at their site today and just make some aha moment changes.
[00:10:43] Quinn: Really? Just have somebody like you can go to a coffee shop, you can use like a user testing service or anything where just watch someone like try to do something on your website.
Does it have to be like, uh, like something, you know, just grab someone from the code office. I mean, I guess we're not in offices now, but somebody like you grabbed your kid, right? It's like, how would you do this? Watch how they navigate it. What can they figure out? Even that can give you the information that you need.
[00:11:11] Kham: Awesome. Cool. Well, thanks. And I'm looking forward to some more chats down the line. Awesome. If you have any questions on topics you'd like us to cover, please email me podcast@inthinkagency.com or message me on LinkedIn. Join the community and continuing the conversation with myself in our experts in the business is people slack, workspace.