Episode 8: Just like the rest of us

This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.

You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue, so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get$250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.

Lowe's knows you need quality paint at a price that works for you. That's why MyLows Pro Rewards members get 20% off paint, stain, and primer purchases after annual paint qualifying span reaches$3,000. Shop top brands like Val. and ProBlock at Lowe's today. To start saving big. Member Paint discount excludes spray paint and mistints and can't be used with any other discount. More exclusions, terms, and restrictions apply. Visit Lowe's.com slash terms for details. Subject

I'm Adrian Dunbar, and this is a story about a time in Irish society when nothing was ever quite what it seemed. It was shock and horror that anything could actually happen like that in the Phoenix Park. It was wrong and violent and obscure.

Welcome to Obscene, the Dublin Scandal. There's nothing fires up the imagination in a small country more than the idea that someone wandering around who's going for anyone. We couldn't believe that this culprit for these crimes would have been associated with a most senior law officer. If this thing is what we think it is, we'd bring down the government. Obsigned the Dublin scandal first on BBC Sans. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

I want to end this story by going back to something we talked about at the beginning. The FBI is offering a reward of up to$50,000. Those two mugshots that for more than a decade were on the FBI's most wanted domestic terrorist website. The faces of Josephine Sunshine Overacre. And Joseph Mahmoud Debe were listed among airplane hijackers and murderers. How did I get on the most wanted people in the

country of the United States. As we've made this series, we've been trying to understand who those two people really And what the group the government says they were a part of stood for. From 1996 to 2001, these individuals participated in a sale of approximately 20 individuals.

How, despite never physically harming anyone, the eco-terrorist movement they were a part of would be identified as the number one domestic terror threat in America. Any way you look at it, these individuals are considered as terrorists. the terrorist label being applied to activists who take kind of extreme measures to ensure that no one is injured. I think it reveals

the priorities of our government. Terrorism doesn't have to have a body count. From the moment they started like we're gonna put you in prison for thirty five years well that was pretty serious and uh hasn't really relented any From the time we started making this series, Joe has always said he's not guilty, which means we've never been given a straight story on what really happened at the slaughterhouse that burned to the ground. I represent a terrorist.

What? And for sunshine side of things, people won't tell us a thing about her. And it's like she's earned this mythical status. The ultimate is Josephine Overacre who did all this and she was still in the wind. She would be a queen. We think the stories of these two individuals are critical to understanding the most pressing issue of our time.

Climate change is the thing every single human will have to face one way or another. You have no rights! You should sit on the side of the road and make a legitimate protest. We wanted to know what drove them to take radical action. We wanted to know how far is too far to go to save the planet? If it's not me, then it's who. If it's not now, then it's when. This is Burn Wild, Episode 8. Just like the rest of us. I'm Leah Satilli.

For this series, our conversations with Joe Debay spanned more than a year and a half. From just after the time he was shackled and masked in jail. If Job was a terrorist, we wouldn't being on Strict house arrest. I actually don't touch the phone because I'm not allowed to touch the To finally being able to see him in person. It's an eagle. It is? The government accuses Joe of multiple charges.

including three counts of conspiracy to commit arson, and they say he participated in two arsons, including the burning of a horse slaughterhouse called Cavill West. He's been pleading not guilty to all of them. But one day in April, things changed. His attorney Matt Schindler emailed us to say that Joe was changing his plea. From not guilty.

To guilty. Hello? We got straight on the phone with Matt. Oh I'm doing just fine other than someone smashed in the uh window of my car. Oh no. As Matt drives down the freeway without a window He explains to us that for months he's been trying to negotiate a deal with the government. If he goes back to prison, I guarantee you.

that they would treat him as a a terrorist and that he would go to a maximum security prison. For someone like him, who's not actually a terrorist, who's just an environmentalist, they're gonna treat him like a terrorist. So instead of gambling at trial, risking being found guilty, and the potential of going back to a maximum security prison, Matt and Joe decided to negotiate a plea agreement. Because the best case scenario is. He could get credit for the time he's already served behind bars.

And the government might say that was plenty. If j the judge decided to sentence him to time served, then they would live with that. So that was a big concession. But the government agreed to mitigate the restitution, the amount of money Joe has to pay. You know, that potentially gets him out from underneath millions of dollars. But

The risk of going back to prison for him is not insubstantial. The government's gonna ask for him to spend years more in prison. You know, it's a deal that involves some risk. But at the same time, if we hadn't gone through this mediation, we would be going to trial. What's his mood? How is he? I think he's torn up. I think he's conflicted. He's not happy. It doesn't overjoy me. I'd much rather go and whip the government's ass in a trial.

But it's not the right result for him. Since he did Cavel West. I mean, he did it. Matt's talking about the horse slaughterhouse in Oregon. Throughout all our conversations with Joe, we've been in a slightly strange position, with him pleading not guilty to Cavill West while also not really denying he was there. It's hard enough uh to win when there's some questions about your uh involvement or guilt.

There's no question in in this case that he was guilty of a conspiracy to commit arson and guilty of an arson as well. I'm not gonna beat an arson case that my client is guilty of and effectively confess. I mean he I don't know that he would admit it or acknowledge it, but it's like imagine that, you know, for for twenty-five years you've been living under the shadow of this thing. That's a long time.

In April, it was the court hearing. While we were allowed to watch via Zoom, we couldn't record it. We heard Joe and Matt click through. Joe's rights were read, and the indictment recounted. We heard that Joe was quote. Part of a conspiracy beginning in October nineteen ninety-six and continuing through December two thousand five to commit arsons on government properties as well as properties involved in interstate commerce.

that a group of individuals, including Joe, made an agreement to destroy properties as a part of their ideology, and as quote, part of direct Actions. We heard how Joe poured gasoline mixed with gel through holes and into the building at Cavill West Slaughterhouse and ignited it to start a fire. And at the end, the judge asked how Joe pleaded. He said guilty, Your Honor.

Hey Joe. Hi, how are you? After Joe changed his plea, we get on the phone with him one more time. I'm good. I'm good. Like that first time we spoke. George is in London, Joe's in Seattle, Matt is on the road, and I'm in Portland. With the change of plea, one thing Georgia and I were hoping to talk to you about, Joe, and I'm sure if you can't, Matt will jump in here. But can you talk about the night of Cavill West? Let me interrupt you for a second. I have no problem with

This question. Just for your information, Leah and Georgia, and I have never had this discussion with Joe. Never. Okay. So this will be the first time I'm hearing him describe these things. I'm interested to hear what you have to say. Joe, go ahead with your answer. So it was the first time I ever did any sort of serious direct action that was like super illegal. I didn't come to it lightly. I was approached a while back by a guy and

He said, Hey, you know, there's this situation and we need your help and you know, I was like, nah, I don't think so. And then I started researching it and eventually it was like, okay, well, we just we felt like there was no legitimate or legal outlet for our grievance. When Joe read that wild horses were being killed at Cavill West, he was outraged. Not only because of the slaughter, but because he says he felt the democratic process was being disregarded.

He tells us that the environmental movement did everything to try and stop the wild horses from being sold off to Cavill West. They went to the police. They went to the court. They protested. That was part of the chain that kind of led to the evening at Cavill West. We approached the former owner of Cavill West with the claims made in this series, and he didn't get back to us.

So for the first time, Joe describes that night, july twenty first, nineteen ninety seven. No people or animals were hurt, but the building was destroyed.

Well I guess I was terrified. Yeah, I'd never done anything like that. And I remember being scared. Like just the whole time I was there. It was like, oh my god, this is terrifying. I can't believe I'm doing this. Originally the idea was that we were gonna We're gonna poke holes in the building and pour fuel through the holes so that it would contain it effectively inside. But Joe says a number of things went wrong. One of the other arsonists had made the mixture that turned the fruit.

the fuel into a gel. And it wouldn't go through the funnel. that we were trying to put it into the building with. And so I was sitting there trying to cut the funnel so that it wouldn't get stuck. And of course I it was covered in gasoline. And the next thing I look over and everything's on fire. quite terrifying. He tells us how one of the others there had broken a timer they had rigged up to ignite their homemade firebombs. And so someone like tried to connect them together and did it wrong.

and it caught fire. And the fire actually was not a timed thing. It it literally caught fire in the process. You know, I I was off like in a corner and all of a sudden this bucket of fuel was on fire. Ten gallons worth of fuel sitting there and it just caught fire all of a sudden. You know, and it just shot up Up the side of the building, and so it was time to leave, basically. We we ran, got to the car, and the whole thing was engulfed.

We got in the car and left. Now as we're driving out, we passed Cowboys on the right side and we were looking out the the window of the van and flame was above the roof and it was fully engulfed and uh you know, in a couple of minutes it was gone. So yeah, I mean it was Terrifying. Like it was terrifying. The day after that or the morning of, I guess, I walked into work and you know, turned my computer on, sat down and wrote software.

At that point I knew I'd gone through a door that, you know, had closed behind me. And that part really bothered me.

We're gonna come back to Joe. His mugshot sat on the FBI's page of most wanted domestic terrorists for years, alongside another. And their names were about to be brought back together again. Less than a half an hour after Joe's guilty plea was entered, without missing a beat, a press release came into my email from the US Attorney's Office. It read Pacific Northwest environmental extremist and arsonist pleads guilty. One of D-Bay's co-conspirators remains at large, Josephine Sunshine Overacre.

All this time, as we've chipped away at the story behind Joe D. We've been tugging at every possible string we can to find out more about sunshine. The defendants we've spoken to in the case of the so called family, Chelsea, Daniel, and Joe, they haven't said much, if anything, about her. But sometimes strange things happen.

Back in September twenty twenty one, I'd noticed that new sign up on my newsletter. So I wrote and I just said Hi, apologies for the very random email I'd emailed the person to check my hunch, not really expecting munch. And I couldn't believe it when they wrote back and confirmed it was who I was thinking. I just got an email a few minutes ago that said Leah. Yes, I am Elsbeth Overacre Faye.

Mother of Josephine Sunshine Overacre. Josephine Sunshine Overacre's very own mom. For many months we talked on the phone. We talked a lot about her life. Her daughter. her life after her daughter went on the run. But she didn't want to be interviewed. It was clear she'd been through a lot, so we gave it time. Nearly a year. And then, in the summer of twenty twenty two, Georgia and I asked one more time, did Elizabeth want to talk? This time, she agreed to it.

My name is Elspeth Overacre Fay. Elspeth Overacre Fay. I'm the mother of was very active and believed in saving The ancient redwood. I'm seventy nine years old. Fifty years ago. Roe versus Wade Lincoln. I f I find that Mind boggling. Some fifty years after marching on the streets for women's rights, they've now been taken away from us in the United States. And I just find that unbelievable and appalling and

Totally, totally dumbfounded and devastated. One of the reasons we've spent so much time speaking with her is that not only is Elspeth the mother of sunshine. She too has a long history of activism. And that's where Elsbeth starts. My first experience with protesting was I have three younger brothers. We were all just a couple years apart. And as my brothers graduated, they were terrified as they turned eighteen because they were getting their draft cards to fight in the Vietnam War.

many of my graduating class contemporaries were drafted and through the years learned that they never made it back either physically or mentally. And I didn't want that to happen to my brothers.

So I decided the best thing to do was immigrate to Canada and I was going to offer a safe house to any of those young men or women that were claiming to be peaceful protesters and I would give them a safe place and a place of refuge if they decided they wanted to leave the United States and not fight in the Vietnam War. I was also involved in defense of the Chicago seven. It was quite a frightening time. Later on, Elspeth would move to Berkeley, California.

Berkeley had buses where they would bus people up to certain protests to protest the clear cutting and I would go to as many of those protests I could. I truly believed I wouldn't be out there doing it if I didn't think that it would have some changes enacted and at least bring awareness to a lot more people. This is the world that Josephine Sunshine grew up in. Being close to San Francisco at this point became involved in a lot of peace rallies in San Francisco and she came with me.

And from there on she made her own choices. I'm very proud She took a stand and stood up for what she believed in and was willing to fight for it. As a mother I'm very, very proud of that.

You know, it's become very, very clear to us as we've worked on this project for almost two years that for the better part of two two decades, the FBI has controlled the narrative. on who Josephine is. Um, you know, we've spoken to FBI agents for this series, you know, we've we've heard over and over what they say that she is. And I guess I'm curious to ask you, what would you want people to know about her?

I see the FBI most wanted poster with her picture and description of destruction and violence and that's not who I know. Josephine is There's a lot of misinformation out there. She was young, she was passionate. She was very sensitive. She was not a violent person. She was believed in peaceful protests. She believed strongly that protesting would bring change. Can you tell us what it's like to have

a daughter who's gone? Well the first part of my answer would be I was called before a grand jury that was going to question me about the whereabouts of my daughter. I know did not know where Josephine was and they insisted that I did. Um I was told that if I didn't appear before the grand jury, I could be put in jail for eighteen months.

All of the advice and help that I was getting from a number of attorneys and activists said you don't want to go to jail. But at the end My regret is that I didn't put up a bigger protest. if I have one regret in my life that still haunts me is that I was willing to go to jail for her. When I went before the grand jury, I could not have anyone in the grand jury room with me.

I couldn't have an attorney. I couldn't have my husband. I ha was in there totally alone being bombarded with these questions. Extremely emotional questions for a mother. I wish I knew where my daughter was. I would have a lot less heartache and sleepless nights, but I don't. The mother of a missing child is Devastating every single day. And my heart breaks a little more every single day, not knowing if she's healthy, she's hurting. I know Josephine can take care of herself, but

If something happens, I don't know who she's with or who would be there taking care of her. And there's no closure. I don't know if I'll ever know what happened to my daughter. To the claim that Elsbeth was threatened with 18 months imprisonment for not testifying, and that she wasn't allowed to have anyone with her. The FBI told us in a statement that federal law prohibits anyone except the testifier in the grand jury room.

Yeah, I mean it it was something I could just compartmentalized off. It was just like okay, well We did that. That wasn't a good idea. In all of our conversations with Joe Debay, we got a keen sense of what it's like to disappear from your life and try to remake it all over again. How even when you do remake it, you never stop being nervous.

or looking over your shoulder. It was definitely like one of those experiences where, yep, did that. Don't want to do that one again. After Joe Debay changed his plea, Georgia and I noticed this change in his voice. It's interesting, Joe, I gotta say, hearing you talk about this, you you sound a little relieved. I mean do you feel a little bit of relief being able to just

Talk about it with a little bit of freedom? Yeah, I mean i it's sort of weird. It's it's sort of it's really bizarre. Like You know, for the longest time I've been like, Oh I will never talk about that night. You know, now I'm in a position to do that. I guess there is some relief or it's just unusual. I think it's really unusual. I didn't ever think I'd hear myself talk about it.

Yeah, i it's just strange. Yeah, but finally, for the first time since the early two thousands, he can actually talk openly about something he's kept a secret for decades. When we started this project, Georgia and I went through the communiques sent out by the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front. Raper and destroy them. The Cavill West communique claimed the action would bring to a screeching halt. what countless protests and letter writing campaigns could never stop.

And it was true that it effectively shut Cavill West down, but it also freaked people out. One thing that George and I found in our reporting is like there are clearly no one was hurt, you know, physically injured. That's very clear. But there were perceptions of eco-terrorists that that kind of like

really made people scared. I mean, do you see those that as as victimiz victimizing people? Yeah, I I don't necessarily think that the whole eco-terrorism thing can be completely pinned on people who engage in those actions. the government created this myth and this fantasy and sold it through the media.

It's the government creating this hype. Yeah, I get that some people were afraid of that. It wasn't our intent to freak anybody out or scare anybody. It was literally to stop Wild horses which are federally protected from being sent to slaughterhouses. And specifically the the only slaughterhouse on the West Coast, which was in Redmond. It was really the government that was creating the fear and the and the perception that has m permeated this discussion.

I wanna hear you tell me a little bit about what the line is for you. So I'm just curious, you know, w with all of these years behind you, you know, what where is the line now for you? Yeah, I I've never been an advocate of injuring people, of physical violence. That's always been a line I've never strayed over. I guess like that line moves a lot. For me a lot of what at the time many years ago I felt was justified was I would definitely shy away from doing things that are extremely illegal.

uh without extreme something I saw as an extreme need. You know, I'm I'm fairly pessimistic about our prognosis for the future, like as a species. I've done my best to to to try and prevent that, you know, for three decades. You know, would I burn something down again? No, I would not. Like I didn't feel like it

it produced the the type of change that I wanted to see. Um, it may have produced it in the case of Cal OS where, you know, we got rid of the only slaughterhouse effectively in the country and refocused the public's attention on horse slaughter, but it also opened the the floodgates to a bunch of other things that I thought were really not very productive, uh were counterproductive actually.

Early on in our recordings, Joe told us how as a teenager he saw clear-cuts in a place he loved, the Cascade Mountain Range. That's what stirred him to do something. If it's not me, then it's who. If it's not now, then it's when. We can't ask Josephine sunshine what drove her to take the action she did, but speaking to her mother Elspeth, it's clear that activism, direct action, that's something that runs deep.

What do you think drives people to toward trying to make change? And and I think what I mean by that is like taking things beyond you know, signing a petition on a street street corner and then just getting on with the rat race. To participate in a protest and maybe get arrested or to sit in a tree for months. What do you think is the thing that drives people to take it further? I think it's an interesting question and I've thought about it and I Actually for me, my father was born

in Germany. He came to this country when he was seventeen. and during the height of the war he felt he needed to give back so he

got back into Germany and was very instrumental in Radio Free Europe getting broadcast to the German people. I mean he didn't talk a whole lot about it but there must be something in our genetic makeup and I see it passed on to my daughter, there must be some predisposition to fighting for your own rights or the rights of other people and being willing to take a stand publicly. So now when you see like these guns, like this youth climate protest, big walk out of like teenagers.

Big environmental services. I mean, what are you thinking when you're seeing that? I'm excited about that. I think without this kind of protest nothing would be changed. It makes my heart feel a little bit better to know they're carrying out and have the same beliefs that my daughter did and that I do. But I also worry because I know I miss my daughter terribly and I see these young people doing the same thing.

Do you have hope for the next generation? I guess for the next generation of people, but also for the future of of the planet. Future of the planet? I think is frightening'cause we aren't paying attention to fires and water and the environment. I think a lot of people just become complacent. I think we've had warnings for a long time. Do you think there's a risk? that we'll see more extreme environmental actions as the effects of climate change around the world become more severe. You know I

I don't know what you call extreme. Like if somebody comes in your house with a firearm and says, I want all your stuff or I'm gonna destroy your house And you fight back is that extreme? I think that w we're entering an era where the things that we were saying for the last three decades. Are starting to come true. You know, every year literally is the worst year on record for hurricanes, droughts, wildfires.

So yeah, I I do think that there'll probably be more significant types of or extreme types of actions against climate change. Joe is still awaiting sentencing. The story of what happened to the family is sobering. Lives spent cut off from the very things that inspired them in the first place. The weight of secrets, prison time, a jail suicide, lives spent alone, on the run, funerals for people assumed dead, and Joe in limbo. Chelsea Gerlock living out of her car.

I mean we g we got hit so hard that there is um just Weariness. You know? Yeah. Of like, oh, it's just I just don't have it in me to keep you know, and I did feel like banging my head against the wall to some extent of like really working hard and not seeing any change that I just at some point just can't do it anymore.

They tried everything, Chelsea says. They tried the legal routes, they didn't work. So what else are we gonna do? Well we'll try this. And then we found that that didn't work either, and then we stopped doing it. So that instead have a posture that's more like I'm just gonna water the garden every day and I'm gonna see plants grow, you know? She's gonna water the garden and help it grow. This one teeny tiny action she can control.

And then there's Daniel McGowan, who went from pying executives to breaking windows to arson. Tell us about your life now to right now. Well my life now is very is very different than it had been. I'm a paralegal. I have a very normal life, uh whatever that means. Do you have any connections to the environmental movement still? I don't have much connection to environmental work anymore.

I'm not consciously avoiding it. It's that I just have not I don't want to say I haven't had an interest, but I just do not see a place. for me necessarily. Another thing that has given me pause is m what my involvement in a current environmental campaign can do. You know, to hurt the campaign. I don't want my association to harm people. I don't want people to think like, oh, and they got this terrorist. Because that's that's always kind of pressing.

I find reading about climate and the crisis really unnerving. Super disconcerting. Do you I I I've never ended an interview asking this question, but do you have hope for the future of the Earth? I don't I don't know. I have I have more hope for the earth than I do for humanity.

You know, that is what scares me is the dystopian future that exists for humanity and just less biodiversity and in until the point that, you know, the planet is so hot that I don't know, we just can't really survive or we survive in the most miserable scenarios. So I don't know how to change that. I don't know how to cool the planet down. I you know, it's something that gives me a lot of distress. Um so I don't really know what we're supposed to do.

That was afraidpressing. No, I mean it's this is the the question that's sort of s at the center of this entire project we're working on is like what w what do what do any of us do? you know, we're all journalists or not journalists, like we are in we're on this planet too and it's a it's a pressing issue, so

I w I wish I knew. I I mean I don't wanna punk out and give you this crap answer, but I wish I knew. I mean, I'm sitting in a bedroom right now and I have a fan on because it's like s eighty degrees out. It is September twenty third. It should not be 80 degrees out. In my lifetime, we actually had seasons in the northeast, and that is just completely gone. I mean, that we would see a change to our climate in one person's lifetime is is kind of shocking. So I don't know how do we change that.

like um retreating into your household, just making lifestyle changes on their own. To me that feels very like just self satisfying. We compost, we recycle, we do all that stuff. But like I don't confuse that for political action. And so most of the political action around climate or about the environment

you know, it really seems to be about getting politicians to do something. And and that is like hurting kittens. What we're talking about, like real change to the environment is that or the way we engage, um It's kind of at odds with the kind of economy that we have, which is predicated on constant growth. Um and so there's a part of me that's like, Well, don't participate in that, you know, and that's great. But like again, that's like individual

So I have to say I don't feel I don't really know what we're supposed to do. So do you think maybe what you did is the right answer? Perhaps You know, I've thought about this a lot over the years. I mean of course I have'cause it's like I went to prison for this and it was a major thing I care about. But I I wish I had some firm answers. I like to think that there's m perhaps a time that um Yeah. That guy who was once smashing windows and burning things down is now

Composting, just like the rest of us. It's like he's in this paralysis, just like the rest of us.

The guy who the government said was scary is now scared for the future, just like the rest of us. Chelsea, Daniel, Joe, strong activists who were once so sure of themselves, now don't know what to do. The planet's getting hotter, and no one can agree on what to do. And it's not just these protesters of the past saying this.

the new generation of activists like those at the protest camp in the woods in the UK echoed their fear. Yes, you're speaking to us at an interesting time, I think like for me this is A point where I'm like needing to go and take some time away from camp.

I hope we try. Like we try and like take on board some of the things that that went wrong or that one thing that we've often talked about is that the the environmental direct action movement in the nineties and stuff, it didn't always take seriously Like burnout and looking after each other and the emotional toll of this stuff. I think we're slightly more aware of that stuff now. A bit more aware anyway.

So I hope that like yeah we are moving in a good direction and like learning from our histories. But on the big question of what the right thing to do is, they too say they don't really know. Maybe there are more people who really want to do whatever is necessary to make change. I don't know what that is either,'cause it's like quite a lot more complicated I think than just like even if you you know you go.

Making this series, at times, Georgia and I have felt overwhelmed by what we've heard and the issues raised. We've gone around and around and around arguing over what the point of all this is. Behind the personal stories is something depressing, bleak, and big. In many of our interviews, people said they were daunted by the task of what to do about climate change.

But one person, one of the co-founders of Extinction Rebellion, Dr. Gail Bradbrook, told us something when we spoke to her that puts a slightly different light on it. This is a very daunting task that you've taken on. I mean, do you ever feel like you it it's it's too big? Like, what do you say to people who are feeling daunted by the task at hand. Uh come on, I think it's what an exciting time to be alive.

There's this thing called the five whys. Ask why something's the way it is. And then when you've got yourself an answer, ask why that answer and then ask why again and then again. And that and then within that, what's mine to do? What another great question. Life is is short as far as we understand it and what makes life worth living is living with meaning, living with purpose. So I I'm not daunted. I'm I'm

Feel enlivened by these times. The future is daunting, yes. But to Gail, the present, this moment, right now, is electrifying. At age 79, Elspeth Overacre still finds ways to be an activist, to feel electrified in ways that fit her life. Each week she volunteers at our local food pantry. It's something at my age that I can do, which I believe is a form of activism. I'm in an agricultural area. And as the food prices escalate

the field workers who put in eight, twelve hours a day can't afford to feed their family. But what I find ironic in this particular food bank And we pack fruit and vegetable box and canned goods, frozen meat in empty wine boxes. These field workers are out in the vineyards pruning, keeping the weeds down, picking the grapes. And they contribute to making this wine, which is very expensive, especially if you're gonna buy a case, and they're getting free food.

in the wine boxes that held the wine, that they were out in the fields in the hot sun many hours producing, and yet they can't feed their families. I was thinking it would be a good song. It would be a good Bob Dylan song. Yeah. That's my activism now. Making sure food doesn't go to waste. In my little corner of the world. Elizabeth Overacre says she tries to simply focus on her corner of the world. She tries to make a difference where she can, in a way that feels tangible to her.

And I think there's something to that, that for big changes to happen, they have to start as small changes. That if everyone was trying to make a small change, that might add up to a big change. A million fleas on the back of a dog changes the way it moves. A hundred small birds alter the behavior of one predator. In the summer of 2022, so long after we started down the road to make this podcast, it seemed like maybe the fleas were changing things.

The President of the United States, Joe Biden, put his signature on a$369 billion climate bill that would cut 6.3 billion metric tons of greenhouse gas emissions. It would mean the country would be well on its way to dramatically cutting emissions. It was a huge deal. It was hard not to think that maybe it happened because environmental activists big and small had been fighting for change for so long.

That back when the Earth Liberation Front was lighting its fires, the issue was still radical to people. But over time, activists made caring about the planet an everyday issue. Climate change has become a cornerstone of elections around the world. It's being repeated that we must do something. That's a long way from the 1990s and when the ELF were lighting their fires. But will this be enough for the planet and the protesters?

What is uh I mean how do you look back on this period? Do you think that the Earth Liberation Front was successful? Yeah, without a doubt. Leslie Pickering, former spokesperson for the ELF. Yeah, I mean you remember global warming and the conversation that was being had during the time period.

You couldn't find a politician, you couldn't find anyone in any significant place in media who was willing to say it was anything but a theory. Usually they were saying it was a hoax. Yeah. Um and it is night and day.

I mean yeah, we shut down some companies. We put some fear in the hearts of some of the people who were doing the worst things to the environment in the area at the time, right? Those are all tangible achievements. But The biggest achievements are that we created something that would grow after and continue to grow after we left. Um and that's a and that's a sort of an awareness and a dialogue and understanding that this is something we need to talk about.

On that last interview with him, Joe Debay said something about why he started the fire at the horse meat processing plant. It wasn't exclusively about horses, it was about all things are connected truly. And we're seeing the ramifications of that. You know, with trees and how trees provide moisture and create the climate and how the climate moderates temperature.

temperature and how the moderation of temperature allows salmon to breed in our streams and all things are connected and if we couldn't even get wild horses protected, how are we gonna get ecosystems protected? It was, Joe says. About having a voice.

I think a lot of the direct action is is based in that. People don't wake up one morning and say, Oh, I'm gonna go burn down a slaughterhouse. They go through a process I think a number of people uh would have loved rather Than engage in illegal activity to follow through a process and have their voices heard. A lot of the actions that happened in the 90s by environmentalists that had specific targets. This particular company was doing this bad thing against this finite defined space.

Climate change is quite different, right? It doesn't know borders. It's not a company doing it, although there are certainly companies that are much more culpable than others, but it's the collective action of everyone. That's causing it. Until governments are held accountable for their actions, we're not going to have any meaningful solution to climate change. You know, and and that's the unfortunate truth. Whatever your takeaway is on what the so-called family did.

It was a story that couldn't be told in those mugshots alone. Perhaps their story is a warning from history, a parable of how direct action can lead to some very indirect consequences. about how good intentions backfire, how human nature sometimes conflicts with mother nature, about how doing the right thing isn't as easy or as clear as it appears.

People will find themselves on either side of that big question of our time. How far is too far to go? Some might fear the eco-terrorists. Others, the crackdown brought on them. And perhaps over time that will change. when the Earth's Liberation Front could have never known how far reaching their actions and the consequences of their actions would be when they lit those fires. Today, we find ourselves confronting the same truths they were. Now

As then, the fight is here. The cause is known. The consequences are not.

I think Josephine came to her activism from a place of love. for all living things. It was from a place of peace and love that she wanted for all, including the trees. There is no reason to cut these ancient, ancient trees down just for someone to profit from the law. So there's anger in there too. But mostly from a place of peace and love.

What do you what do you hope has happened to her? I hope she's Certainly helping other people, um being creative, dancing, singing, having a wonderful life wherever she is. While Ellsbush spoke, I grabbed Sunshine's yearbook I'd found months earlier off my shelf. And flipped to the page I'd found. I got a copy of Josephine's high school yearbook.

I tracked it down. Saw in the back that there was a little ad when she graduated that had looked like it was from you. It had a a Grateful Dead quote in it. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. I I don't remember specifically the quote but it's a big grateful dead fan and she was too. It was uh

Dear Sunshine, well everybody's dancing in a ring around the sun. Nobody's finished. We ain't even begun. So take off your shoes, child, and take off your hat. Try on your wings and find out where it's at. The Golden Road, Grateful Dead sixty seven. Love mom, Jim and Thor. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me. That's who she was and um That's how I'd like to remember. I hope she's grabbing life and, you know, having a good time. of any drama and trauma and pain. Dancing in the sun.

Burn Wild is presented by me, Leah Satili. The producer is Georgia Cat. It's written by me and Georgia Cat. The fact checker is Rob Byrne. Music is by Phil Channel and Echo Collective. Both are great. Go check out their work. The theme is by Echo Collective, composed, performed, and produced by Neil Leiter and Margaret Hermont, and recorded, mixed and produced by Fabien Lesseur.

with new composition and sound design from Phil Channel. Podcast script recorded and engineered by Slater Swan at Injuna Recording Studio. Series Studio and Mixing by Sarah Hockley. The commissioning executive is Dylan Haskins. The editor is Philip Sellers. Burn Wild is a BBC Audio Documentaries production for BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode and leave a review to help other people find us. Thank you to everyone who's spoken to us for this project.

Join me, Adam Fleming. And me, Chris Mason, for our podcast. Newscast. I was too busy concentrating in case you threw a quiz at me. We've got loads of special guests joining the podcast. To help us understand what's really going on with the latest stories. There's no doubt the constant media headlines have been driving people to think more about their finances.

People who report the news, analyse what's going on here and abroad. We're delighted to have the Speaker of the House of Commons with us this week. Headline hype. Day. Newscast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Now's the time for a great deal on a new Honda. It's time to take a With rugged capability and commanding style. It's time for powerful performance. Plus, plenty of room inside. Start your journey in a brand new vehicle. Check out the Honda Ridgeline. Pilot, Passport, or CRB.

See Dealer for financing details. At the BBC, we go further. With a subscription to bbc.com, you get unlimited articles and videos, add free podcasts. News channel streaming live twenty four seven. plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. From less than a dollar a week for your first year, read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to bbc.com. Find out more at bbc.com slash unlimited.