Episode 7: When the Fed met the Radical. Again.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. de las más retorcidas. Salpicaré sus papitas de verde con sazón de pepinillo y con esos feos calcetines verán mi retorcido motivo. Así que si quieres probar lo que el Grinch preparó, ve a McDonald's y verás lo que tramó. El nuevo Grinch Meal ya en McDonald's. En McDonald's participantes hasta agotar existencias.

It's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to history's toughest heroes wherever. you get your podcast.

I'm Adrian Dunbar, and this is a story about a time in Irish society when nothing was ever quite what it seemed. It was shock and horror that anything could actually happen like that in the Phoenix Park. It was wrong and violated obscene.

Welcome to Obscene, the Dublin Scandal. There's nothing fires up the imagination in a small country more than the idea there's someone wandering around who's going for anyone. We couldn't believe that this culprit for these crimes would have been associated with the most senior law officer in the country. If this thing is what we think it is, it would bring down the government. Listen to all of Obscene, the Dublin Scandal, first on BBC Sounds.

Back in the summer of 2021, The first time I sat down for an interview with Chelsea Gerlach, she painted a picture of her early childhood, running around in the woods, camping, hiking. You know, I have pictures of me as a baby. Naked in the river, learning to swim. She remembers everyone in her town just getting along. Forest kids like her side by side with timber kids.

I had a strong sense of myself and my values and also an awareness that those values were not universally shared by my peers and I was okay with that. My best friend in elementary school listened to country music. Her family took me four-wheeling on the sand dunes. We were just best friends, and we were having fun together. That's so interesting. The cultural differences and political differences between our family.

didn't keep us from being best friends. Yeah, yeah. I don't know when it turned nasty. The type of complete polarization. that we see now was not my experience growing up. It's a far cry from right now where the environmental movement seems politicized, polarized.

You should sit on the side of the road and make a legitimate protest. This reminds of what's going on in politics today, this big separation. This side, that side, far, that far right. The degeneration of violence is really the adoption of a philosophy that... justifies othering. And everybody thinks they're writing a bunch of jackasses. What's completely clear is that the current system isn't working. Whatever's happening, it's not working right now. When Georgia came out to Oregon,

and we spoke to people about the actions of the Earth Liberation Front and the so-called family, it was clear the divisions were everywhere here, too. Did it color how people thought of environmentalists? Yeah. I think it did. People in this story have been speaking about each other. What it does is create more hate and discontent, in my opinion. There's slower ways, but there's better avenues. But very rarely to each other.

The environment, as they go too far, because they don't live in our world. I don't know where they're at, what they're doing, but it's not out here. And this gave us an idea. Early on in our reporting, retired FBI agent Jane Quimby one of the leads on Operation Backfire, the investigation that put the family in prison, told us that 20 years on,

You know, some of these folks, I would rather maybe at this point sit down and have a beer with them as opposed to putting handcuffs on them. So we asked her how serious she was. Test, test, test, test, test, test. This is Burn Wild, Episode 7. Test, test, test, test.

When the Fed met the radical. Again, I'm Leah Cittilli. Okay, I'm sure she'll be here any minute. On a cold January morning in Portland, Jane came up from Colorado, and Chelsea drove into town, and that afternoon, we brought them together at George's Hotel. The last time they saw each other, Chelsea was in handcuffs, Jane with a badge and a gun.

Chelsea would end up cooperating with investigators in the case and would be sentenced to nine years in prison. I was in maximum security for, I think it was the first three years of my incarceration. Losing everything. I mean, literally everything. The material things, the relationships, any future, hope that I might have had. We decided to speak with them separately first. So I stay outside with Chelsea. What do you recall of her? My memory of her was she saw me as a...

bad criminal and that she was out to make sure that I went to prison. I got the impression that she didn't like me. Georgia goes in with Jane. She certainly was very intelligent. That was obvious. She truly was committed to the cause. Why do you... want to, I hope, want to do this today. You rarely ever get the opportunity as an investigator to go back and talk to someone that you were responsible for putting in prison and having that kind of impact on her life.

It's never happened in my career. It would not surprise me if I was her. I would probably vote a will toward me. So 20 years later, here we are. Why are you doing this? Curiosity. I'm curious to hear from someone who had a very different experience around these events. It's even some, you know, funny, some of my friends that I'm talking, they're like, you're doing what? Did anyone try and say you shouldn't? No. It wouldn't have persuaded me.

Georgia and Jane emerge and Chelsea and I stand up to shake her hand. Hi. Hello. Chelsea, it's been a long time. It has been quite some time. Yes, it has. Okay. So here we are, sitting outside, bundled up in blankets and jackets, gloves and hats, because it's January and the latest COVID variant is surging in Oregon. It's a little early for beers and it's cold, so we get a few mugs of hot tea instead.

We have to thank you, Jane, because I think when we were interviewing you, you said, you know, I sort of wish I'd had a beer with someone. We'll take a hot tea. Jane turns to face Chelsea. I appreciate you being willing to sit down with me because this rarely ever happens where you have... an investigator that's been really entrenched in investigation and then have the opportunity to actually sit down and have a conversation with the person that was truly impacted by something that I did.

For many years, we're just trying to move past it and now have the opportunity to look back at that time. Georgia and I tell them we're going to sit back and let them speak.

We said we'll pipe up with questions here and there. But as it turns out, we didn't need to say much at all. I always said when I was working this case, I would consider myself as kind of environmentalist. You know, I'm very anti-destruction of the environment. And so in some respects, we probably have a lot of the same beliefs and ethics. Did you feel that conflict at the time?

Yeah, definitely. Specifically speaking to the Arson at Vale, I probably didn't have the same degree of contempt for Vale, but I still recognize... the beauty of the environment and think that we as people have an obligation to protect that environment. But I think for me it was that's okay.

If you want to voice that opinion and you want to demonstrate or protest, but once a decision's been made and they've gone through the necessary approvals, then when you're starting to obstruct that to the point that the criminal acts got committed. At that point in time, for me, that was the bridge too far. You know, during the period of time that the Earth Liberation Front was identified as the number one domestic terrorist threat in the country was just a...

A couple years after the Oklahoma City bombing, where it was 168 people were killed by a right-wing militia connected person. And that movement that we see now has... continued to grow, has continued to radicalize. I wonder if you, at the time, noticed that disparity between how left-wing radicals were treated by law enforcement versus right-wing radicals.

Things change over that whole time period. And I think it's really driven by, I don't want to say it's kind of the flavor of the day, but, you know, at the time in Denver, we had a pretty active neo-Nazi. movement and then that would draw the bureau's attention and then the pressure would mount those people either be charged with something be and then they would just kind of go away and so then that would cease to be the flavor of the day

And it's like, okay, who's out there doing something now that's in the public eye that creates attention? And then you're like, okay, it's almost kind of like you're chasing whatever the latest threat is.

There weren't a lot of actions at the time of our arrest. And as you know, we weren't doing actions anymore. So I'm curious your thoughts on that as well, that at the time... there were so many resources towards this cold case because it was given that terrorist label and we went to prison for a long time and we have a you know a terrorist label on us for ever now because of that we paid a big price well i think and i'm not sure how much i was cognizant of it at the time but certainly

As I've had time to reflect back, it was very obvious. Now you've passed these laws, you've authorized additional personnel, and then there was, of course, the Attorney General making this big announcement about how this terrorist group had been, you know, taken. out of commission and getting the terrorism enhancement as part of sentencing. And so then they want results.

I was debriefing with the understanding that hopefully I will be offered something less than a life sentence, but that was never guaranteed. So that felt really scary. You know, like you're talking, sitting here talking.

to me about you had this genuine fear about maybe a life sentence i just don't i don't think in good conscience that's something that i ever could have supported Personally, and I would have vociferously argued against it because I really think that in the grand scheme of things, that would not have been a reasonable. outcome from my perspective. You know, even now I'm wondering if nine years was appropriate.

I want to pause here for a second. We're going to return to this conversation. But first, to Joe DeBay, the man who evaded capture for 12 years. Unlike Chelsea, he's very much not on the other side of his alleged crimes. Just a couple of days after getting Jane and Chelsea together over a pot of tea, we drove to meet him at a wildlife refuge near Olympia, Washington.

It's a really awful day. More than rain. Something we in Oregon increasingly know as an atmospheric river. For the past three years, he's been awaiting trial. But the dates of it keep getting pushed back. But the government has loosened the terms of Joe's home incarceration. And for the first time, we're going to meet him in person. When was the first time we talked to him? January hearing, right? That's right. Okay. Yes. And a mask and yet COVID. Yeah.

This wildlife refuge we're driving towards is essentially the southernmost point of where he can go without his ankle monitor going off. By then, we'd been talking to him for a year. but had never met in person. When we meet him, he's friendly. Seems happy to finally meet us. Hey, Joe!

Thanks for making the drive. And because it really is amazing scenery here, even in the midst of an atmospheric river. And maybe because it's good to meet in real life after so long online. Georgia goes peak Brit on us. I think it'd be nice to talk about something nice. I love when you're British, Georgia. We decide to go for a walk. We're all decked out in rain gear, and we hit the trail.

Joe has been here before, a lot. He tells us about going kayaking with a friend at this very spot in 2004, one year before the takedown of the family, one year before he fled America. So like this area used to be a bunch of pumpkin farms. We came down, we launched the boat. So we launched out here, we were paddling around and the whole area was flooded. Like everything was flooded.

So you're looking over the side of the kayak and there's pumpkins there. And periodically you see salmon swimming between them. It was a very unusual thing. It was one of my favorite paddles. Like when I think back on it, it was like I paddled. When Joe talks about engineering or nature... his face lights up. It gives me a sense of calm and peace and place. Cities are so abstracted from humanity and from what we are as creatures. And this kind of like regrounds us.

You know, being an engineering engineer, if I can look at it and say, wow, there's the golden ratio, and I understand why, you know, this tree grows here and that tree grows and all that, but at the same time, it's just... it's just beautiful to look at it's like there's a lot of wonder in it it reminds me of being a child right it's like as a child the entire world is something to explore it's this thing of wonder

We realized on the way up here that we started talking to you about a year ago. So tell us what's been going on since we last spoke. Well, in June I started our projects and we're working with indigenous people and I'm producing smart movies for them.

We're going to grow kelp. It can actually grow about 400 times faster than a comparable tree. I know, I mean, you can almost watch it to grow. And we're hoping for a massive drawdown of CO2 out of the atmosphere because obviously climate change isn't just a hoax. it really exists wow who would have thought you know math didn't lie when joe talks about climbing mountains or ocean kayaking or kelp he gets really excited

And he talks about all of these things a lot. Collecting kayaks since they've been out. They're all broken. So I gotta fix them all. Pinky whales come up by you or gray whales. I like science. It's like there's a right answer to everything. having sea lions all around you. We get the sense that these things, science, engineering solutions, and nature,

Push numbers through an equation and come up with an answer. It's sort of that weird smell of the ocean, sort of an explosion of life all around you. These are the things he lives for. It's an experience. You've got to have it.

When you were in jail then, you couldn't see much of it. Do you feel like a proper handkerchief? Yeah, I mean, always. When I was in jail, I had to focus on... something other than where I was. And so I dug really deep into all those subjects I just absolutely hated when I was in university, right? It's like I literally read the organic chemistry book.

from cover to cover. It was like 1,400 pages of just the most dry boring stuff that you could ever imagine. Why'd you torture yourself further? You're already in jail. When else, under what other circumstances would you voluntarily read organic chemistry? And now he's on home detention. But the trial he's waiting for seems like it will never come.

He's been moved how many times? I can't count how many. He hobbles around with the ankle monitor, says that wearing it for months has affected the way he walks, so no hiking. He can't get it wet, so no kayaking. And the wait is solitary and it's lonely. How are things going on with your family? You know, my father had a downturn over the summer and... We end up having to move him to an adult family home. I'm sorry about that.

Is he doing okay? Are you able to see him? Oh yeah, we visit him like two or three times a week. He's grumpy as ever. Has your wife been able to come over from Russia? She left me. Yeah, I mean, obviously, like, she was like, well, I can't come here. You can't go to Russia. I don't know what's going to happen in the future. Yeah, I'm happy to have 2021 in the rear view.

It's pretty striking when we're talking and you talk so much about nature and the outside and the stuff you like doing. I guess there is a chance that we could be incarcerated. Sure. There's a pretty, yeah. There's definitely more than a chance. And how does that, like, is that something, are you trying not to dwell on it? Well, you know, through this whole process, going back to 2005,

I've tried to, like, morph my current existence around my conditions to bring as much normalcy as I can. Which is why Joe likes coming to places like this. It's his escape. We totally soaked through, so it's like a real northwest height. And as we walk, Joe talks about the landscape, about trees. You look at a tree that was here before AD started. Yeah. and it's pretty hard to justify cutting it. That thing has literally been here two millennia and you're gonna make shingles out of it.

Do you see, like, cutting down a tree that old? Do you see that as a form of violence? I do. I mean, it's violence against the environment, and it's violence against the future generations that would enjoy that tree. We really are stealing from the next generation when we do these kinds of activities. And no one speaks for that.

I guess I felt compelled to do something about the destruction that was happening. It was irreversible, right? I mean, you can't tell me that you cut a 2,000-year-old tree down. and then grow a new one tomorrow. If I don't do it, who will?

Back in Portland with Jane and Chelsea, the conversation turns to the question of terrorism. In this series, we've been grappling with the question of how a group who never caused anyone physical harm became a domestic terror priority in America. And then Jane says something to Chelsea that really surprises us. I think there was tremendous political pressure. And in retrospect, I think you guys were victims of political timing and circumstance, I think in a lot of ways.

It's incredible to hear Jane, a retired FBI agent, say there was political pressure to get the Earth Liberation Front. That's something we asked Tim Suttles. the FBI agent currently making it his life goal to hunt down Sunshine. Have you felt political pressure at all to kind of finish this? No. No. No, I don't.

I mean, I put enough pressure on myself that I want to finish the case, but no. When I was in the heat of battle, I didn't see it that way. But when I look back now, I think you had a sentence to nine years. That's a significant amount of time for someone to go to federal prison based on the actions that you did. And I think that the terrorism enhancement and the terrorism designation was really what...

drove those high sentences. In this series, we've heard how the government were able to evoke high sentences because of that terrorism sentencing enhancement. That was supposed to be a win. You know, in the law enforcement, it's like, hey, we have the case where the attorney general got to step up and say, these people have been charged and convicted and the terrorism enhancement has come into play.

You know, the terrorism enhancement and the label at the time. I remember thinking this is the right thing to do in the heat of the moment. And I don't think that the time I would have been capable of taking a step back and saying, wait a minute, you know, is this really a just result or not? It's taken, you know, time away and time. you know, to pass and kind of have a better, I think, overall perspective on things. But personally, when I reflect back, I don't really feel good about it.

And I'm sure there are some of my colleagues that would say, how can you say that? And I'm sure there will be people that will look at me and say, you know, be disappointed maybe that these are the conclusions I've now come to. But I stand by... and what i say that's interesting to hear but i appreciate you being able to look back and say well was it this terrorism was this like was this the appropriate response to these types of actions

Maybe not, maybe it was overreach. It's good that maybe there has been that reflection that maybe actions like this shouldn't be treated as terrorism. And that's unfortunate that that overreach had a dampening impact on a legal, you know, above ground environmental movement, which was doing really important work. And that work... is still important you know so how does that prevent society from moving in positive directions in some ways you know

Jane looks close to tears. We're all in silence. What we've just heard, it's something when we started recording this that we didn't expect, especially not from someone on Jane's side. To hear that Chelsea was a victim of political timing and circumstance and that changed her life forever. I mean, that's what we assumed at the time. And certainly, you know, even after our arrests, the seeking of the terrorism enhancement and just the ways that it was that the case was being handled felt.

Political. Yeah. And here Chelsea is, doing the comforting, saying, maybe it's good you're reflecting. It does feel... affirming in some ways to hear that from you you know having been involved in it does feel like I appreciate it

Once in an interview to us that you, how did he say it? It was like, I want to live, you said something like, I really actually just want to live like a pretty steady life. That was it. Normal, yeah. I want to live a normal, like, stable. Uneventful life. Well, I don't know if uneventful. Invariably, hiking with my friend always has events.

Someone said to us that you would be the kind of figure to become like an elder in the environmental movement or like a figurehead. Do you feel that way? No. Would you want that? No. I'm quite happy growing kelp and doing tech stuff. you know, dying in floods, insane snow, like crazy freezing. I'm wondering if when you're seeing these things, are you thinking about that time of your life?

Yeah, we knew that climate change was happening back in the early 90s. We've seen it in the last decade. It's been always the worst year on record for droughts and tornadoes and hurricanes and floods. on and on and on. It was almost 70 degrees in Alaska last week. As we're walking, we pass a lake and Joe shares this childhood memory that he has of here.

You know, I remember being a kid out here and I remember my grandmother came from Syria. I remember there was a lot of salmon in the river. There was so much salmon in the locks that... They were literally jumping out of the water. They jumped onto a stanchion. And I went and pushed it back into the water. And my grandmother was like, why'd you do that? Because, you know, it was food, right? Like my grandmother from Syria.

I was like, because fish belong in the water. You know, they had 120 fish come back. Back last year. Out of millions. So, yeah. The salmon just don't come back anymore. He tries to keep it down, but you can see it in his eyes, hear it catch in his throat. We've spoken to Joe a lot at this point, and I've seen him cry twice.

Not when he's talked about his upcoming trial or the possibility of returning to prison. But when he told us of the forest he used to visit disappearing, being cut down. And now... When he thinks back to that salmon run he saw as a child. I know that the generation that's born today will not ever see salmon runs like that. They will never know what migratory salmon look like, and that's sad.

We are the last generation of people who will know what that looks like. And that's horrible when you think about it. How many millions of years did it take to develop that? We pissed it away literally in a generation. I feel for young people today because they're inheriting a world that we messed up. Given that, do you feel like... You're on the right side. Yeah, I think so. I think that people who stood by and just watched it happen are going to be on the wrong side of history.

Back in Portland with Chelsea and Jane, it's cold and windy. But the unlikely pair are in high spirits. One of George's microphones keeps running out of batteries. And they're chuckling away like old friends as Chelsea shares an anecdote from Vail. So we did find, we tried to use electronic timers at Vail and found that batteries don't work well in the cold. My terrorist expertise.

The retired FBI agent and retired eco-terrorists are laughing, really laughing, about the practicalities of making the fuse, which would go on to start a fire on that mountain in Colorado. The fuse which would light the chain of events that would see Chelsea branded a terrorist and put behind bars. We honestly didn't know what to expect. That maybe one of them would want to scold or lecture the other. But there was none of that. It felt like a rare moment of civility.

of two people from two different worlds coming together for reconciliation. Chelsea doesn't even shut down when Jane asked her something, which to us, she'd replied, no comment. Curious. From your standpoint, because you know that Sunshine has never been contacted. But I'm curious, just from your perspective, are you surprised that she has not surfaced in all this time? No.

No. So I hadn't seen or spoken to her in years prior to my arrest. So I have no, I had no direct knowledge about her whereabouts or what has become of her. But just... knowing myself for you know those of us who have lived in that off-the-grid environment it's not that hard and and also is a way that feels I don't know, like authentic to who I am and want to be anyway, you know, like living kind of out of these systems of control where people would pop up onto law enforcement radar.

then yeah, I think it's possible to remain a fugitive for quite some time. But also, it's really tiring to be away from the people and the things that are familiar and that you know and having to look over your shoulder and having to, it's stressful. So for me personally, I'm glad that I was able to do my time and get it over with and be on the other side of it now and, you know, can have another life. Jane and Chelsea are wrapping up. We've been chatting together for over three hours.

We've lost the ability to have civil conversations with each other because we're so divided that even though you might disagree about something, we can't even talk about it now. You know, we're so divided, so polarized, that just having those kinds of discussions is not happening. I think that doesn't bode well for our future as much. And so it does scare me about the political divide.

that I see and the polarization of people. And I'm not sure that I know the answer or what I see, you know, for the foreseeable future. I'm not very optimistic and that scares me. Yeah. I do think that that polarization existed before. I was involved in a civil disobedience campaign in rural Idaho when I was a teenager. and I was yelled, screamed out and insulted by local vloggers.

But as I'm writing a book, I'm going back to some places that have significance for me and so would like to go back to that part of Idaho, and I'm scared to now. I feel like that polarization, it's gotten very much worse. And it's been ratcheted up so much that it's really scary.

being in our kind of social bubbles, that it's contributed to the dehumanization of the other side, and that enables violence. When you don't know anyone that has these different beliefs, it's easier to have demonizing ideas about them, which enables violence. This conversation actually gives me hope.

for that that you know one might think that we're on opposite sides that we would be naturally enemies and you know certainly there was a time when we were on you know somewhat opposing sides of an experience you know and i have worked on forgiveness and but that is really difficult but i don't want to hold on to bitterness towards you

So it's encouraging to me that we could sit down and have a conversation and actually find that we agree on a lot of things and that we both were doing the best that we could at the time and believing that we were doing good things. It gives me hope that... such dialogue as possible, that there is that common ground that can be found. It feels like that's a rare thing to happen these days, but a really important one for the future of our country and for the future of the planet.

I'm trying to look back at my actions and be honest about the places where I feel bad for the harm that I've done and the things that I regret. And also I feel a tension in that of, you know, still believing that we had some good motives and, you know, what we were trying to do. And I think that's becoming more and more clear. The concerns that we had around the destruction of the natural world.

are as critical now as they ever have been. So in wanting to be honest about my regrets, I feel like I want to balance that with also holding to, also we really... We were right about the level of destruction that was happening and that continues to happen is very, very bad. This is a global crisis that we're in the midst of. Chelsea's served her time. But in some ways, she's free now. Unlike Joe.

protest that you went on, so back to Warner Creek in 95, and you were going to do it all again, would you do it? Yeah, I probably wouldn't. If I knew we were going to get targeted by... a bunch of three-letter acronyms in the government. No. No, I wouldn't. And I think that's what they wanted, right? To send a message to other people who are crossing you.

I mean, I think that was the idea here. It was like, see this vandalism? We're going to call that arson, and you're going to confess to it, and you're going to take a terrorism enhancement. And that's the message they wanted to get. to the environmental movement, and I think it was pretty, it was heard pretty well. Did we keep the ancient forests in the Northwest from getting cut down? For the most part, no.

Did we stop climate change or even begin to address it? No. There was just a multitude of different, did we? And pretty much all the answers are no.

It just didn't work. What is it? It's an eagle. It is? The little birds usually chase the big ones. getting up on the eagles and the hawks. That's probably all they have is safety numbers, right? It's like, it's pretty odd to see them. Like, you'll see like a bunch of... Starlings or crows or something like pecking at an eagle. Standing there looking at the birds with Joe.

big raindrops pelting all around us, it reminded me of Tim Lewis back in Eugene. How he carved the word freedom into the wet concrete. How he said that for resistance to work... People needed to be like a million little fleas on the back of a dog. I think maybe we're more like these little birds. On their own, they're small. But in this group...

They mob up on hawks and owls who get too close to their nests, and they chase after them. Like, they're aware that even a predator isn't invincible. Like, they know their strength together. is more powerful. But right now, Joe is a bird out on his own. All this time as we've talked to Joe, while he hasn't denied being involved in direct action, of even being there at the site of the arson at the horse meat processing plant.

He's maintained he is not guilty of the things the government accuses him of. But then, 15 months after we first spoke to him, there was a new hearing. All of a sudden, that changed. Next time, a confession from Joe. For the longest time, I've been like, oh, I will never talk about that night. Suddenly, we're able to get answers to things we weren't able to before about what happened that night.

I guess I was terrified. You know, I'd never done anything like that. And it's not just Jo's role in this story that's about to be brought into focus. Someone who knows the last remaining fugitive better than anyone tells her story. for the first time. My name is Elspeth Overacre Faye. I'm the mother of a young woman who was very active and believed in Saving the ancient redwoods, the mother of a missing child, is devastating every single day.

Burn Wild is written and presented by me, Leah Citilli. The producer and co-writer is Georgia Cat. Fact-checking by Rob Byrne. Music and sound design by Phil Channel. Additional music, including the theme, by Echo Collective. Composed, performed, and produced by Neil Leiter and Margaret Hermont. And recorded, mixed, and produced by Fabian LeSueur.

Podcast script recorded at Anjuna Recording Studio by Slater Swan. Series studio and mixing by Sarah Hockley. The commissioning executive is Dylan Haskins. The editor is Philip Sellers. Burn Wild is a BBC Audio Documentaries production for BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds. Please subscribe and tell everyone about us. We're really proud of this project. And leave a review to help other people find us.

I'm Adrian Dunbar, and this is a story about a time in Irish society when nothing was ever quite what it seemed. It was shock and horror that anything could actually happen like that in the Phoenix Park. It was wrong, unviolet and obscene. Welcome to Obscene, the Dublin Scandal. There's nothing fires up the imagination in a small country more than the idea there's someone wandering around who's going for it.

anyone. We couldn't believe that this culprit for these crimes would have been associated with the most senior law officer in the country. If this thing is what we think it is, it would bring down the government. Listen to all of Obscene, The Dublin Scandal first on BBC Sounds. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4.

history's toughest heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.