My name is Jonathan Mueller. I'm the host of Building Better Businesses in ABA podcasts, and my guests today are Dr. Kristen Sohl and Alicia Curran. Alicia is a proud mother of four beautiful children. Following her son's diagnosis of autism, Alicia devoted a professional career to the autism field where she has worked in both education and healthcare.
She's the Director of Strategic Initiatives for the University of Missouri Echo Autism Communities, and has served as a CDC's Act Early Ambassador to Missouri since 2016. Dr. Sohl is a professor of Clinical Child Health at the University of Missouri, the founder and executive director of Echo Autism, a global program partnering with clinicians and professionals to increase access to autism best practices.
She's a pediatrician with extensive experience in medical diagnosis, evaluation, and longitudinal support of people with a question of autism and other developmental and behavioral disorders. She's a tireless advocate for children, and she's the immediate past president of the American Academy of Pediatrics, Missouri Chapter, and the chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics Autism subcommittee. Alicia. Kristin, welcome to the pod.
Hey, welcome. Thanks. Really happy to be here.
I am happy to be here. I know we first met when the, the world was, uh, a different place. I think 2019 at a project echo autism training in Albuquerque. um, and man, talk about drinking from a fire hose in the best of ways. It was so much fun. So, Alicia, your personal and professional goals are driven by your belief that everyone should have the opportunity to live their best life. How did your son's diagnosis and your journey inform your beliefs?
Yeah. Well, um, you know, Sam is greatly affected by autism. Uh, he always lands in the overall, like low or extremely low categories on all assessments. He's minimally speaking. And most assume that Sam isn't really capable of a lot because of, the barriers that he has to, communicating effectively. But as Sam's mom, I see so much more. I get to see a side that's incredible and know that there is so much more to him than meets the eye. And I wish that others could see that, as well.
And you know, what makes Sam have a good life or a best life? Looks very, very different, than, most of the general population, including me. But I want folks to know that you know, his best life. He has a right to that. And although it looks different, that does not mean it looks it's any less. It's important to him.
And I think that that is really, really critical for us, as a society to remember that just because someone's ideas and what makes them really, really happy is different, um, that does not mean that, it makes them less. And I really truly believe that wholeheartedly that every person on this planet, has a purpose and no one is better than anybody else. And that we all have areas that we excel. We all have areas where we need help.
and I think Sam's diagnosis made me realize this in such a different way. It literally changed my life. and, you know, I hope that one day, for his sake and for my sake too, that we live in a world where, we can support each other as a society. and that way everybody has the chance to contribute meaningfully to our society as well as have their right to their best life.
That is so eloquently said, Alicia, and I think it, it dovetails Kristen, with the conviction, I've heard you describe that there is this tsunami of need, and there's a responsibility to serve. And I love the combination of those. But tell me more, like why do you feel so strongly about moving Knowledge not just moving patients, and how did that influence you founding Project Echo Autism?
Yeah. So, you know, I think that when I think about, my clinical practice and I think about, all of the people that I've had the pleasure of having in my life, and serving their family, you know, it's really a great honor, and yet I recognize how many people don't have that type of professional relationship, with someone who can help them along the journey, whether they have autism whether they have some other chronic condition.
And so to me, when I think about my role as a doctor, and I think about my duty, so to speak, in serving kind of both the US population, but the global population. It's saying, how can I help make things more equitable so that no matter where somebody lives, they have access to someone or, or at least content that can help them thrive.
And so that's really what inspired me to follow in the footsteps of the Project Echo founder, Sanjeev Arora, and really think about, all right, I'm doing this clinical work, I love what I do, uh, and yet there's so many people who don't have access to someone like me, or someone like many of my colleagues and those waitlists are excruciating.
And so the wait list to get the services, to get the diagnosis to better understand what's going on for someone, whether it be their child or themselves, are really just excruciating. And to me, there's no real good excuse, to that bottleneck. And so that's why, and that's really what inspired me to, to jump on the Project Echo bandwagon and then make Echo Autism.
And tell me, Kristin, just a, a couple things around what, what it is that makes like project Echo unique and Project Echo for Autism unique.
Yeah. So what I love about Project Echo is that it has a real essence of sharing, and really saying, you know, I have a responsibility as an expert to share my knowledge with others so that that way more people can have access to it. If I only, hoard it inside my head, so to speak, or in the populations that I actually get to physically lay hands on, then that is not fulfilling the majority of my duty is how I like to think about it.
And so when I think about, Project Echo and, why it's different, and especially why it's different in Autism we are able to frankly, change minds and change how professionals see disabilities and see the world of autism. We do that because we embed so many of the tenants that many of us believe in but we're doing it in this you know, dissemination platforms.
So for example, parent professional partnerships, um, you know, seeing the abilities in all abilities, seeing the possibilities in all abilities, helping other people who maybe have very limited working knowledge or working experience, with people with disabilities or autism, helping them to understand and work toward embracing those same, important values that we live and breathe every day. To me, that's what makes Echo Autism so special and such a great, powerful professional development tool.
It's because it's not just about, you know, this is autism and this is what it looks like and this is what you do, but it's, this is autism and this is all the beautiful things about it as well as disabilities and how you as a professional have a role to play within, that context and Echo does a really great job of helping us have a learning platform, to embrace that and to learn from that together.
I've always thought of Echo and Project Echo for Autism is almost like, it's like a telehealth on steroids meets learning communities on steroids, meets like encyclopedias. I don't know if our listeners even remember encyclopedias in those days, but it's like all of this rolled up into one and it's, and, but you know, Alicia, why is Echo so important to you as, as both a mom and as a professional in our field?
Yeah. Well, you know, as a mom who got a diagnosis, for her son in a rural community, I know what it's l like to not have, the answers to my questions. I know what it's like to, not have anyone that really knows that cutting edge, best practice information, about autism and so many times, I've heard so many stories of people can't move somewhere because there are no services or have to move somewhere because there are, you know, are good services. And how is that okay? It's just not okay.
People should have the right to again, live their best life, get equitable best practices no matter where on this entire planet. And that's exactly the echo, autism platform. It elevates knowledge, it brings cutting edge best practices and information to clinicians, educators, advocates, other professionals, not only just in the United States, but the globe.
And that really is important to me because, I have one experience, but there are tons of people all across the world, that have a similar experience or a like experience. Autism doesn't discriminate.
It's all over the globe and, and I want everybody to have the opportunity to receive high quality healthcare and education and community services because, that's, what we should do in life is just to make sure that everybody has, an even playing ground and has the best opportunity to reach our greatest potential. When Sam was diagnosed long ago, I was in the unknown zone. I knew nothing about autism.
I didn't feel like I had the information necessary to really make informed decisions because no one really had, connections to autism experts in my hometown. They didn't have those, opportunities to learn about the latest and greatest cutting edge information about autism. So I felt limited, to make the best decisions, for my Sam. And now in my hometown we have several professionals that have joined Echo or Echo Autism programs here in Missouri. And now there's more knowledge.
and families have more answers to their questions, especially a lot more than I did 20 years ago. And it is just an amazing feeling to be part of an organization that continues to not only just rewrite stories in my hometown, but literally rewrite stories across the globe and being part of that means a lot to me because I know the struggles firsthand.
I've experienced them, and being able to guide families that reach out to a resource that, I'm part of and I'm so proud of is, that really, that just, that's the icing, on the cake. it's the cherry on top, if you will.
Well, this is a really important pinpoint, this idea that especially in rural communities you don't have specialists. and so the question is how do you equitably get access? if I remember correctly from, from my project echo training, the, the mission of Project Echo overall is to democratize medical knowledge. I can gain best practice, or something to that effect. which, and it is the first time I think I've ever shared on the podcast. That's part of what inspired me with a podcast.
I wanna democratize knowledge. Why? Because, oh my gosh, there's this model for how it works. Now I don't practice the Project Echo, model yet. but this idea of amplification, right? Using technology to leverage scarce resources, sharing best practices to reduce disparities, case-based learning, right? To reduce complexity. There's a web-based database on outcomes.
I mean, there's just so much richness in this, but Alicia, help me tactically, and our listeners like, paint a picture of what it, the typical echo session might look like and what kinds of people in stakeholders participate.
Yeah. Well, first of all, I'll start by saying that when I sat in my first, project Echo training, I remembered thinking two things, I'm an educator by training, so I remembered thinking this is an educator's dream. This is learning at its best And then secondly, I said, Ooh, this is a program that can bolster parent and, self-advocacy. so I was, you know, I was hooked from the first sentence that Dr. Arora spoke at Project Echo training.
So really the way I see, our sessions, there's really three core components that are really, really essential to this model that, really, are the secret sauces of, making the best o best of the time for learning. Number one is introductions, even if everybody knows, each other, it's really, really important, for introductions to build relationships because really, the Echo model is built on those relationships and, um, and working together.
we are a group of like-minded people, whether it's Echo for Autism or Echo for any other, thing, kidney disease or AIDS or whatever hepatitis C, we all are, like-minded and so those relationships are really, really important, especially with, the participants that join us. and then there's always a flash talk, a knowledge burst, a little short didactic to give a, overview of a certain topic. not all the details, but just a broad overview to set the stage about a best practice.
And then there are, is really the meat and potatoes and, where it really counts and the magic happens. And that's the case-based learning. So we have, a participant that comes on and presents a case, a real live, real-time case, that's de-identified. So we don't know. who that person, might be, but they present a case and then we have an opportunity to all have a rich discussion. it could be, you know, it's.
Comments and questions and recommendations from, the other participants that are on the session. And then as well as the expert, uh, team, the content expert team that, runs the session. So just really engages rich conversations. It is a true all teach, all learn model. there is probably not one session I can think of that I didn't walk away with a different perspective or a different learning. and it's because it's an engaging process where everybody's voice matters.
I'll teach, I'll learn. I mean, if that doesn't give you freaking goosebumps, you tell me what would, right. When I first, I think that that's the idea of like, you had me at Hello, like you all had me at Hello, and Dr. Arora had me at Hello in, in Albuquerque years ago, and I think it was him that made this comment is you can share knowledge without getting poorer.
how mind expanding is that, especially in a day and age where we feel like we're so protected of what we know and have like invested in, in what we've learned. I, I think it's so profound. But Kristen, what's one aha moment you had that just told you Yes, echo works.
There's a lot. Uh, I would say the one that is the most profound for me is when we had some of our very first participants. so clinicians, mostly pediatricians and some nurse practitioners and family physicians, come back and say, man, I never knew I would like autism this much. I only did this because I wanted to hang out with you. and now I love kids with autism.
And so, uh, for example, that particular, pediatrician that I'm thinking of said I now have a half day at clinic every single week dedicated to kids with autism. And I knew nothing about autism before echo autism. And it was like, whoa that is so cool. And it's because it's really hard to learn something that you're really not taught. And so when you're learning something new and it's complex and it's kind of scary, um, not that autism is scary, but learning something new can be scary, you know?
It. it takes a lot of vulnerability, And so hearing, this pediatrician And then frankly, many, many others since then, share that same sentiment was the, biggest aha moment because that's behavior change, right? That's saying, I didn't know how to do this before. I really didn't know, how, nor did I really want to. But I took a risk learned and now I have changed my practice. and that's when I was like, oh, okay, we're onto something.
and that was really powerful and such a cool moment to think about how could we change the game for autism and disability services in our communities. if we were able to change the mindset or the thinking of professionals, And help them to see kids or adults with disabilities in a completely different way not as kind of confusing or mystifying, but as exactly what they are human And awesome. what would that look like?
And so That's really been a huge, impetus and kind of frankly bright star for us to keep marching toward, as we think about echo autism and echo autism communities, uh, at large. But that's definitely probably the biggest Aha moment.
Well, speaking of vulnerability, I mean just learning, especially when we're in the midst of our professional careers, learning is vulnerability. And I'm pretty sure Kristin, you told me at one or you told the, you know, the class, um, at one point that you know, well, you are a pediatrician by training and you practice for many years as a pediatrician. But that a pediatrician, like more than half of their questions, the concerns they get from families are developmentally related.
So tell me more about like, how much training do pediatricians receive in med school and beyond on developmental related questions and concerns.
Yeah, absolutely. So, yes, I am a proud general pediatrician. although I have not practiced general peds in quite a while, I've always practiced developmental behavioral peds. it's true. Surveys tell us that, you know, surveys of pediatricians and, and primary care folks that are between 40 and 60% of of questions that come into the pediatrician are related to development or behavior. And so that makes a ton of sense. I mean, that's what parents are often asking about.
And so when we think about that, that says, wow, that's a lot of questions. Well, that's good cuz pediatricians are smart. So I'm sure they have all the answers, but we are smart and yet we only get four weeks of training in development, any kind of development for our entire three year residency. And we really don't get any in medical school.
so medical school is pretty much, you know, it, you're learning about the body and how the body works and things like that So it's in residency that you really learn kind of your craft, so to speak. And you know, pediatricians are tasked with learning everything from neonatal intensive care to the pediatric intensive care and surgery and like all kinds of stuff. And so there's not a great way for you to master development, which does seem kind of shocking, but it's true.
And so, um, yeah, four weeks. That's it. and then of course you are picking up additional, information as you practice and as you're seeing kids. But that's it as far as, uh, formal training.
This is like, alright, th there, there's so much to unpack here, but it's 40 to 60% of the questions and concerns are developmental and behavioral related, and yet, four weeks, four weeks, not months, not years of training on this. You talk about vulnerability like. No one wants to be in front of whatever field you're in and not be able to to field those questions. Right.
A and I, I think I've read research, correct me if I'm wrong, but that pediatricians work more hours per week than any other medical practice because they are so passionate for many reasons, but partly so passionate about serving kids. Like how would we reconcile these things? Or is that sort of Project Echo's the answer to this?
Well, you know, I think there's a lot of, uh, a lot of ideas and a lot of, opportunity there. So pediatricians are hard, hard workers. and just like, frankly, most physicians are very hardworking. Um, many, many hours spent taking care and serving individuals of all sorts. But I think some of the solution comes down to, frankly, reimbursement. And a lot of them, the payment models that are feeding our medical education and our healthcare system reinforce, intervention based services.
So if I'm a surgeon, or if I'm an intensivist that, so in other words, I'm in the ICU those are high risk, high reimbursement. So I won't say high reward, but high risk, high reimbursement, um, aspects. And so our training tends to focus on that, right? So those are the things that we are spending quite a bit of time learning. There are lots of things to learn.
I mean, pediatrics is a very broad field, which is why we, have fellowships and things like that But truthfully, um, our healthcare system has an opportunity to think about how we do both, what we call graduate medical education, which is our residency programs, but then also how we do our post-graduate education programs, which is how we support our practicing physicians to learn more and do more, and frankly, stay relevant with the questions that are coming into them from their patients.
And unfortunately, we're in a pretty darn stagnant medical education system. And so thinking about what does a real practice look like in the community or in rural healthcare or what have you, We know those things, and yet changing the, the direction of medical education is very difficult. and there's a whole lot of very powerful stakeholders involved in how those decisions get made and how you could try to turn the, the ship so to speak, is a whole lot harder than it looks.
Which I think is part of the power of Project Echo, right? This idea that we're sharing knowledge and we're we of the royal we, you know, pediatrician can, uh, better their own learning journey and knowledge so they can potentially diagnosed right in their clinic. and then pass that on. Alicia, can you tell me more about a newer Echo program? The ASERT Echo?
Yeah, I would love to tell you about that, program. So, this is spearheaded by Dr. Beth Malow from Vanderbilt University and Dr. Susan Brasher from Emory University. assert is an acronym, that stands for all stakeholders engaged in research together. I have, the honor of serving as a content expert, On the Expert Hub team.
And, this program is really, really special to me because, it not only involves clinicians, researchers, family members, but it also, really involves, as an equal partner, people on the spectrum, or, people with other, uh, developmental disabilities or intellectual disability.
and we all work together as one team discussing research and learning from each other's perspective, as well as as a collective group, just brainstorming how to conduct research, from the time of development all the way through publication. how do we do that together and how do we make sure that it actually serves the needs of the target group and as well as, how do we get it expedited? You know, that research implementation, how do we expedite that into the field?
Cuz we all know that research takes, a long time, sometimes, most of the time to, get that implementation, and to practice in the field. So, I love this. I think that I have probably had some of my greatest learning the last, um, you know, six months that I have been a part of this.
It's really, really fun to be part, and build an, a true community of practice, that is trusting and can have, really crucial conversations and sometimes, it's just amazing how we all support each other, and how we all embrace the perspectives of others. they're actually getting ready to recruit for a second cohort after the first of the year.
So, um, you know, if any clinician, researcher, person with a disability and or family member, are interested, certainly I can give you the information, to connect with the ASERT team because I tell you, it's been, it's really, really special and it's innovative. It's, it's like something that we've never, done before. and it's just, it, it's really, really been an honor to be part of it.
If I remember correctly, something else that I learned with y'all or from y'all in Albuquerque was that, does it take like 17 years on average to go from research, like validated research to clinical practice? What, like what's going on with that? And again, is Project Echo part of that way to speed up that cycle?
Yeah, it absolutely is. And I think that when you think, so it was the Institute of Medicine who did a study and it said it takes about 17 years for that whole process to take place and get out into clinical practice or what I think of as kind of the last mile of clinical practice. and what's So cool about the Echo model or Project Echo in general is that it is a rapid dissemination pipeline, if you will.
And so as your experts are gaining new knowledge, either they're making, they're discovering it themselves, or they're learning it through their academic, Connections And affiliations and things like that Then when they have their Echo network and that community of practice, they're able to quickly get out new information, new best practices, you know, all of the different aspects of research within like weeks, if certainly months.
Uh, and so that's certainly a powerful thing about Echo and that we saw that a lot with Covid. So we did a lot of Covid Echos covid 19 Echos, um, across the echo network. So the, the Global Meta echo network had a lot of different aspects of Covid covered. for example, I led one on Covid 19 in kids here out of Missouri.
And really, Trying to harness, uh, the echo model, to make sure that our, our rural and underserved communities across Missouri and the Midwest had access to all those best practices. but it's, it was a perfect example of how there's no way we could have rapidly disseminated all of the information coming out of, again, research and, and everything during covid and support each other in case-based learning. So Echo is a huge, amplifier of the covid kind of science machinery, so to speak.
And by that I mean network of connections and helping people understand how to turn this and, you know, ventilate that in all of the things that, you know, we had to really worry about in the early days of Covid and And frankly still sometimes now. and so that's been a really powerful opportunity to see that acceleration of research discovery out into clinical practice in, in near real time.
And I had no idea that Covid Echo was used to disseminate Covid knowledge. but of course, clearly, right? I, mean I now I'm thinking about like, knowledge is like wildfire when put through the crucible of echo. Like that is super cool. That is super cool.
Dude, I I, I am gonna keep coming back to, like all this stuff that I learned from you all, but there's, was the Nobel Peace Prize winner, was it, Albert Schweitzer that talked about, he has this beautiful quote and I'll like, um, I'll, I'll mangle it, but something around like, I don't know what your destiny will be, but one thing I do know is that like the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who have sought and found how to serve. And I just feel.
this idea of service, like any one of us or anyone, any clinician, practitioner. Like at the end of the day, it's about the kiddos and families we serve, right? And it's about, like that's what brings us to true joy and happiness.
Yeah, a hundred percent agree.
Oh, more goosebumps
I'm glad you remembered a lot of stuff, Jonathan, that we did teach you.
I confess, I take good notes. That's the only way my, ADD brain actually connects to, uh, to knowledge. So I, I dust it up a little bit. I wanna pivot this just a little bit to, like thinking about ABA business owners and leaders, and what do y'all think is one thing that every ABA business owner should start doing and one thing they should stop doing?
I can jump in, so I always have things to say. so you know, when I'm thinking about ABA business owners. I am thinking through, the importance of professionally developing their workforce. So I'm thinking about how they can accelerate the workforce for anything from BCBAs to RBTs so that we have more people who are quality and equipped to serve rural populations.
I think it's really easy to fall into the trap, and I do get it in a, especially in a for-profit or a, you know, Monetarily driven society. I understand reimbursement rates and things like that are really important.
And yet I think that we need more ABA, business owners to take those risks to say, okay, I am going to invest in these rural communities and I am going to invest in building a workforce to serve all of these communities, not just the urban or micro urban populations, but really try to figure out how to, how. create that access where there isn't any. As a clinician who serves mostly rural kids, I could probably name on one hand if that, how many patients I actually have in ABA.
and that's really sad. And that's mostly because they don't have any, like zero access. and so I need more folks to be thinking about how they can build that infrastructure in those systems. So that's one thought. And then from a stop doing standpoint, I think that what I would encourage people to stop doing, Is setting up shop and then leaving. and so I see this happen a lot. It happens here in my own, university town. It happens all over the place where it's kind of that shiny object.
Ooh, this is a great idea. We're gonna come in, we're gonna set up shop, we're gonna make money. Um, and, and that's fine. And I'm not criticizing capitalism or any of those things, but. the families that are left in that wake and frankly, the, the professionals like myself that are left in the wake of those companies who come set up and leave is a lot. And it's a lot of hopes and dreams that are kind of like, oh shoot, we sat on this wait list for all this time and now it's gone.
They're just poof gone. And sometimes it's overnight, it's like 2, 3, 4 days. and so I would really love it if you're gonna come into a community, come in and invest. Um, it, it, at least be upfront about what that investment is. And if it is more of a trial period, then be honest about that because the wake effect is huge. And so that would be, um, what I would encourage business owners to really think about.
These are people's lives and they've put so much energy into trying to get ABA as a resource. Um, it's heartbreaking to watch them feel so excited that they just got the resource everybody's been telling them about and then literally turn around in the next breath and it be gone, like gone. Gone.
Yeah. I love, I love Kristen that you said invest, because that's exactly how I think about it as well. And to me, from a family standpoint, if you're gonna invest in, um, you know, a. Our community, my child, my friend's kids, you know, really get a pulse on what they need. Uh, all too often I hear families saying, I would love to do ABA, but it's, it's during school and, they don't want to pull them out, for ABA therapy within school. Nights, weekends, yes.
It's, it's inconvenient for everybody to work at that time except for those families who really desperately need, that support. And, and so I think that is one suggestion that I have to start doing is that, you know, if you don't consider nights and weekends, because that's when families really, really, are saying that they want this service, and they, they need this service. I don't know that this qualifies as a stop doing.
but um, if you're not doing this, please, change your practice and really engaging with the family. ABA is powerful. I stand behind it. I tell people all the time my understanding of, uh, behavior, why it occurs and those you know, basic strategies to manage behavior has been literally a lifesaver, not only for myself, but for my son. And, it empowers me as a parent and helps me, empower Sam to be his best. So if you're not engaging with families, please start doing that because it's really.
A lot can be accomplished in sessions, but when parents have the ability to extend what you guys are already doing with our kiddos, that's when it really makes a huge, huge difference. And, I, I cannot tell you, I would have a much different trajectory of, my journey with Sam if I hadn't had, behavior analyst invest in me and teach me, not only the basics of behavior, but you know how to best work with my son. It's, it's truly been life changing. So partner with those familes.
I mean, caregiver and parent collaboration and training is critical. Right. Especially given the high ask that an ABA program has of a family to generalize skills and to be working on it all the time and even to be taking data. So, well said. Alicia, how many Project Echo autism programs are there and if a, uh, a provider listening was interested in learning more, where would you send them to?
Yeah. Well, we would send them to echoautism.org. we have a website and you can click join on Echo. And, we have our Missouri flagship programs, which we have seven programs at this time. We have some for, primary, uh, care clinicians. We have one advanced diagnosis for psychologists. We have, um, echo autism mental health, behavior solutions in hospitals, uh, behavior solutions in schools, early intervention and advocates for self-advocates and family advocates.
So you can find, more about those programs on our website here at the University of Missouri, but also other partnering Echo autism, folks across the globe. So we have, a list and a map that you can, search by topic or search by location and find the program that's right for you in the, the right content and the right time zone as well.
And I want to emphasize here, my gosh, the different types of providers you just described was like a who's who list of providers across the spectrum from like, you know, primary care to early intervention, to, self-advocates, family advocates to psychologists like, who want to better understand advanced diagnosis. And that to me is the power of Project echo and echo autism. Uh, Kristen, where can people find you online?
Yeah, so I'm on all the social media stuff, so twitter and Instagram. Um, probably the, the ones that I'm on the most. Um, but certainly also definitely echoautism.org has all sorts of information about our program, but I definitely love engaging with people, um, on social platforms and all over the place. So definitely love, to be doing that. LinkedIn is another one, Um, that people often find me. Uh, and so those are all good places to connect.
I will make sure to drop a link in the show notes to uh, to all of those so people can find you. Alright, well we've come to. that time. Are y'all ready for the hot take Rapid fire questions? All right. I'm gonna do me, Alicia, you first on each, and then you, Kristen. Here we go. All right. You're on your deathbed. What's the one thing you, wanna be remembered for?
Mm. So many things, but I think to wrap it up, really the one thing that I wanna be remembered for is a person who leveraged the difficulties and struggles in my life to make a difference for others so that they don't have to walk through some of the, um, you know, bumpy paths that I did, that it'll be easier for them and, they can concentrate on not figuring out a whole bunch of systems and, and how to navigate things, but they can be just a parent.. I think that would be really important for
me.
Beautiful. How about you, Kristin?
Yeah, so. When I'm on my deathbed, I wanna be remembered for. having left a significant improvement on child health around the world. So significant improvement on child health around the world. Um, that hopefully, um, will be, you know, primarily related to autism. But I, really am invested in child health in general. and so that's that's definitely what I hope I can leave as a legacy behind me.
Alicia, what's your most important self-care practice?
Yeah. Something that I have to really force myself to do and work on all the time. I, I preach it from the Echo autism pulpit that families should do this and people should do this. But, um, I, I have to admit that, it takes a lot for me to make myself stop and just be. And what I mean by that is, yes, you need to take that quiet time out to think, reflect, meditate, pray, um, you know, do whatever. But you just need to also quiet in your mind and just be.
Quieting Alicia's mind takes a lot of work, but it is absolutely essential because my mind is always going. So just me thinking about, you know, zero just being, just being is really, really important. And probably the most important thing I do for, um, self care.
Alicia, that's extraordinary. When I was an outdoor educator and we would get groups, I, I used to lead like 14 and 15 year olds in, in trips, like two week back country trips in Wyoming, Montana. But I would start with something called the being. Which was a compact of how we would be with one another. So, mm, you brought me right back and high five sista Kristin, how about
you? See, this is why. This is why we like each other so much. Jonathan
how
So I have not a reach, I have not reached that level of zen yet. So quieting the mind is almost impossible. So I do other things to quiet my work mind, so that I can actually be, doing something that isn't work related. So I do two different things, um, that kind of help me take care of myself, if you will. I love walking and I love walking outside.
However, the little brain is always going so I play Pokemon Go to keep the work brain quiet while the fun brain gets to engage with the flowers and the trees, and of course, the imaginary critters that I'm catching on my phone, but it works really well. And then the other thing I do to also, um, you know, quiet the work mind. I love binge watching True Crime tv and so I watch a lot of, uh, True Crime You name it, I've probably watched it. And so um, it's fun. I like it.
It's Just gives me an escape, um, from my usual fun pediatrician reality. Um, and it works pretty good.
I love that your flow state comes from Pokemon go, and what a what a beautiful melding What? What's your favorite song?
Oh my gosh. This is like the hardest question ever. What is my favorite song? I like so many types of music and I love all things. However, one Song and one group that I don't think I would ever, ever get tired of listening to, um, is Don't Stop Believing by Journey. Um, I mean, it just doesn't get much better than that, right? It'll never go out. That song has, you know, gone throughout many generations and I would imagine that my great, great, great grandchildren will embrace that song too.
So I think I have to go with that one.
An outstanding way to close any wedding, at least in my experience. How? How about you,
Well, that's also probably my favorite song. However, I do have several backups because just like Pokemon Go and True Crime Don't Go together, um, my favorite songs don't go together either. And so I would have to say either Bad Medicine by Bonjovi, um, or Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. Cindy Laer. So,
Those are.
true children of the 80's.
Heck yeah.
years like me, Cindy Lauper, unbelievable. And JBJ I mean. Oh, everything I remember from growing up was bad medicine in the New Jersey. Like, mm, hair metal. Woo. He was a tall
Yes, exactly.
If you could give your 18 year old self one piece of advice, what would it be?
Oh gosh. I hope my parents don't watch this, but listen to your parents. Listen to your elders. They actually do know stuff. So, but I don't wanna tell my parents that I think they actually knew stuff, but yeah. Uh, I, I definitely should have listened to my parents in a lot of, with a lot of things.
about you, Kristen?
I would tell my 18 year old self, probably that just keep going. Everything is gonna work out fine and so just keep going.
Hmm? Alicia, last question. You can only wear one style of footwear, what would it be?
Well, you know, Jonathan, that I love my high heels. However, it is not my favorite. If I had a choice of one style of footwear, it would be flip flops, either you know, manicured toenails, or not It would be flip flops because that is the closest thing I can get to being barefoot foot
on Kristen.
well, I kind of already do wear one style of shoe, which is the FlipFlop. So if ever I can ever be in flip flops, they're on my feet. I'd say I accomplished that about 95% of the time. It's only when I have to be speaking, um, or really actually looking like a grownup that I put on closed toed shoes. But yes, the flip-flop would definitely be hands down my go-to
Amen. Adulting is overrated. Alicia and Kristin, Thank you. so, so much for coming on the pod, sharing your knowledge and moving your knowledge and not patients. It's been a lot of fun.
Thank you.
Thanks for having us, Jonathan.