Episode 59:How We Built Catalyst & Resilient ABA Practices with (Besties) Dr.'s Janet & Coby Lund

In fact, she worked as a senior consultant with Aubrey Daniels International from 1999 to 2016. Her husband, Dr. Coby Lund, also co-founded Archer Behavioral Health. Was co-founder and former CEO of Data Finch Technologies, an ABA data collection software company and of Catalyst fame, uh, in addition to co-founding Behavioral Live and Integrated Behavioral Solutions, he's also past president of the Georgia Association for Behavior Analysis and they are still married.

Janet and Coby, welcome to the pod,

The fact that you've started so many together, but you have been so successful in starting and growing and exiting ABA services business and a technology business. Like what's the biggest difference between running those two different kinds of businesses?

I mean, the fundamentals are the same. So I think what Coby and I have always believed in is, having an organization where, first of all, people feel safe, right? So people feel psychologically safe to, to show up. It's a feedback rich environment where people know at the end of the day how they're doing, what they're nailing, and the things that are just opportunities. An organization that has as good of systems as you can.

So whether that was when we were at Integrated Behavioral Solutions, the way we developed systems. Or when we were at Data Finch Technologies or Behavior Live, it's thinking through, you put a good person in a bad system and the system wins every time. So you kind of have to just think about, we gotta build good systems where people can be successful and it's not too cumbersome. We gotta be a place where people wanna show up to work and care about the relationships there.

Like Coby and I have always felt like work and fun should always go together, right? You should never say, well, this is my work life and then these other people are my friends. Like when you work with people that you like and you create an environment that people like to show up with, whether it's technology or whether it's distribution or whether it's, uh, in-home work. That's somewhere people wanna be, and it's somewhere we've always wanted to be.

And we're like, if we don't wanna be there, nobody else is gonna want to be there. So I think, the fundamentals are the same, wouldn't you say Totally. If, if I think about the differences, cause that's not a very fun answer, right? But if I think about the differences, I would say there are a couple of things that were different challenges across, like a technology organization and then a service-based organization.

And one of 'em is, you know, mission and values have always been important to us, like how you align yourself, all the act work, like what are the things that really matter and keep aligning and run every decision through the grid of, is this getting us closer to our mission and in line with our values or is it a decision that's kind of moving us away? And so I think while all of the organizations had missions and values and those things, the way we communicated those were different.

And what I mean by that is I think most of us in the ABA field, we get into that field because we're on a mission, right? Like we learn about the science and we're like, Yes. We become just crazed in how do we bring this to the masses? And so I don't think we ever had a big problem with trying to instill the mission, for people they knew, like, I went into this, I got a grad degree, or I'm taking the RBT exam because I do line up with that mission. And so I think that that was easy.

But then on the technology side, you have these super smart developers who they got in their careers to build really cool stuff, and how do you say, okay, yes, we wanna build cool technology, but we also have another mission, right? And our mission is at Data Finch was to help behavior analysts be successful in what they're doing. So we wanna be a technology that makes it easier to make decisions and help people and do those things.

Probably a lot like you at Element, like that's your goal to just, how do I help you do better things? So we talked a lot about mission at Data Finch, didn't we? Mm-hmm. like it was constant. And one of the things, this was Coby's idea, so I'll let him tell you about this story. Coby just had a great idea of how we connect the mission to the developers when we had those two. Uh, you're gonna have to te Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, we set up this kind of Q and A thing, uh, with some parents that I had worked with, uh, through our clinical practice, had them come in, and of course I seeded it with just sort of, I asked them some questions and they answered it to our whole team. So there's like 50 people who are a part of this, and then they could ask the parents questions, and I couldn't have scripted it any better.

I mean, The parents just started crying about how ABA had changed their, the, their family's lives because of, intervention for one member of their family. It changes the whole family.

Um, and so, we could talk about the mission all we wanted, but that made a really big sort of, guttural difference for all the people who were there In terms of, you know, mission, I would say, uh, one other specific, and I know we don't want to take all of our time on one question, um, but one thing that was sort of unique when it comes to differences is, and people in behavior analysis will know this.

You, you kind of spend most of your time with clients and only some of your time with your colleagues. Uh, and at Data Finch we spent most of our time with our colleagues and only some of our time with like the, you know, the end user. so it was definitely a different working experience. Mm-hmm. Yep.

And it's so true, Janet, this idea that like you put a good person, a bad system, bad system's gonna eat that good person up any time. Do you also feel like, you know, one of the things I've observed is e, especially in high growth environments, systems break every time you kind of double in size, right? And so you're constantly like looking ahead at alright where am I either gonna have to plug the dyke, right? And, and or think of the next generation of that system.

Is that part of your training from ADI? Or how did you all think about that?

And so it was something I think, we got a lot of training. Like one of the things that was different about running those two organizations for us is we were on such a huge learning curve at Data Finch that, you know, we had studied behavioral analysis and studied under John Bailey and, and, and worked with Max and Reese.

So when we started Integrated Behavioral Solutions, it was like, All right, we know what we're doing, but to find a problem and solve it and then know that these systems are all changing and breaking, it was like we were just learning new language, new processes. And I think that's one of the things that we really learned at at Data Finch with all these super smart engineers was, look, if we're gonna fail, let's do it small and let's quick and iterate very, you know, rapidly.

It was perfect about what you all have done. I'm, I'm guessing as entrepreneurs and owner operators, not everything was perfect. Like Coby what did you learn that you wish you knew going into starting these businesses?

Everything that I know about, um, you know, like gross margins and, and things related to finance. I had to learn from somebody else, or, you know, the internet or my accountant while she rolled her eyes every year when we worked on our taxes. So I think that what I wish I knew then was more about business. You know, I felt like I was a pretty good behavior analyst and running a business is a totally different thing. Um, so, you know, it helps. But I wish I'd have known more about that.

You know, something, Jonathan, it just made me laugh, it was a flashback to 2000, I guess, when we were both out with our PhDs and, you know, just trying to decide what do we do in Atlanta? while I was working at ADI Coby's, like, well, I'm either going to be the most educated employee at Lids at the mall, like he literally said that over dinner to me once he said, or I guess I'm gonna have to start something.

And we ended up buying, do you remember those books, the yellow ones that were like Finances for Dummies? Yes. Or Computers for Dummies. Like we literally were like small business starting a business and we're like, well, let's read that. So I think one thing I would say is, resource yourself up, like they're gonna be things you don't know about and like having a really great accountant, having a really great attorney to advise you.

Like when you find those people just hang on to them and nurture those relationships because you know, you can't know everything. And so it's like finding the places where you're like, wow, I'm weak in this area. And who can help? Kind of like hopefully presidents build around them. Experts that sort of feed in and help. I think that's something we've tried to do, like, and it's all learnable and ask for help. Yeah, that's sort of what I learned.

I didn't know any of those things, but I learned them. So you know, it's all learnable.

But like, how did you separate out all, I wanna learn this and get up to speed, and then, okay, this is about the limit of my passion. Now let me figure out something else I could learn and go, uh, do for the business.

I like people who are scrappy and, and I sort of think about scrappy as you can figure out how to do things like this needs to be done. Don't just be a problem namer, be a problem solver. That's scrappiness. And I would just add one other thing, um, especially for like young people, because I, you know, I hear my teenagers say, that saying, if you find what you really love and do that, then you'll never work a day in your life. And I'm like, that's such nonsense.

Like there's, there's no job that doesn't have parts of it that aren't fun. True. Uh, you know, even if it's like sports, the athletes that we watch for three hours a week, they spend most of their time practicing and lifting weights, exercising and like, that's not fun. Uh, so the game is fun, but most of the work is not, and there are parts of our jobs that are fun, but there's a lot of it that's just work.

And what I would tell you is, if you're gonna exit, there's a couple of things you have to decide are you gonna stay on or are you gonna fully, becuase you can exit ownership of a company and go into another company, which is what we did with our clinical practice. And that was a different experience than what we did at Data Finch, which is we just exited, like we were always going to sort of exit out. and so I think I would have two different things.

The exiting, just exiting out, it's really hard when you grow something with blood, sweat, tears, laughter and you were one of the main decision makers to watch things happen to it that you're like, Ugh, I wouldn't have done that. Like, and I would have friends that were like you sold your baby. You don't get to determine if they changed the name of it or they changed the design of it, like it's not yours anymore. And, and that was a, a healthy dose of reality.

I think that we were both like and with the other people that we owned Data Finch, like No, that's true. Like we're still in the field so we can watch and some things we think are great and some things we, you know, but you have to be okay with that. And that can be very difficult. Um, anything about just the exiting, exiting, I can move to the exiting and staying because I have something to say, but I just didn't know about Data Finch. Yeah. No, no, no. Go ahead.

Um, carry on, so I think the exiting and staying like joining a larger organization, um, Those years that we did that were some of the most fulfilling and exciting and amazing because what we did is we joined in order to become the larger organization. There were multiple smaller companies that came together to sort of form this and that afforded us the opportunity to learn and grow and meet and have relationships with people. You know, we're in Atlanta, Georgia.

We were in learning and having friendships from people all over California, Colorado, the Pacific Northwest, and that was something like, you can have networking opportunities, but when you all become one team, that's pretty exciting. Like, it's like, oh my gosh, now we have an expert in feeding, we can all learn a little bit more about that and now we have someone else.

So that was amazing and it was some of the relationships I met there that are formed there, are some of the most important to me. It was amazing from a relational standpoint, but I will tell you, merging into another organization is super hard. Like changing your own culture of your organization and aligning with another and deciding which parts to keep, and then also being a decision maker, and even if you're given a leadership role, you're not the same decision maker.

Like we could pivot and turn our smaller organizations in an agile way like we could go, versus in a bigger company it's like, well we gotta check with this person and this takes longer and it's more people. So I think that was probably challenging for us because it wasn't always scrappy to be in a big organization. It was never scrappy.

I mean, that's something to know about, uh, the size when you're thinking about exiting, especially if you're staying the size of an organization matters in terms of how you feel about that. any large organization is gonna turn slower. I mean, the analogy between the size of an organization and the size of a a, you know, a vehicle or a boat is exactly true. I mean, if it's huge, it's got some advantages, but it's, it's gonna turn slower.

Um, and I would just also add that I think our experience exiting from Integrated Behavioral Solutions to Kadiant was a good one. I mean, there were some things that Janet mentioned that were, you know, challenges. I think that, when we exited from Data Finch, I, I think we found that less rewarding.

And so I would suggest to people that you also need to consider if you're staying, how, well, if you can determine this, how well your own, vision and values align with that of the people who are gonna be the new leaders. Um, and we were fortunate in our clinical practice when we did that, that they aligned perfectly. And so you have some just immediate trust, you know, and there's always this presumption of good intent, even if you don't necessarily agree with some of the decisions.

But there's some trust in the leadership because you have the same values. Um, if they don't align very well, then all those other things become way more frustrating and, the trust just isn't there. That's the difference between, you know, being happy at work, but just being frustrated with little stuff and getting frustrated at work all the time and being super unhappy.

But it's just, to your point, there's just the nature of this difference to how, um, the kinds of systems you need and to how you think about running a cohesive, larger organization. you know, it's so funny. I, I think of you all as being addicts of entrepreneurship, like you're addicted to it

Yeah. So anyway, we, I, we feel like we picked a better name. Um, I, I would also add not so much from IBS to Archer, but I think more from Data Finch to, Archer, Janet mentioned this, I really learned that concept of fail small and fail fast while we were at Data Finch and started applying it at the time, we still had Integrated Behavioral Solutions and I felt like it worked for everything. I mean, if we had ideas for, here's a problem that we need to fix.

it was like, well, let's, let's think of a small scale solution that we can just try, you know, with a few people or whatever, and see how it goes, and then make adjustments based on feedback and so forth. And if it's a disaster, it's a very small, quick failure. and if it works, great, then we'll scale it up from there.

and so I, I feel like that, you know, if it makes so much sense in software, but I think it makes so much sense also in our clinical practice, and my guess is that it probably does in lots of industries.

Um, it's easier in your speedboat to just fail small, fail fast. Hopefully you're not gonna fail. Uh, but if you're gonna fail, you want it to be small and you want it to be quick.

Um, so I'm curious if there's anything else you've learned in going into Behavior Live and just tell me a little bit more about like your broader vision. Having started it.

You know, you put your toe in something, you start small, you make decisions. And so one of the things I think that we have found is that doing stuff with people that you care about and respect and like, and have relationships with really matters. And we started Behavior Live with our buddy Chris, who was with us at Data Finch. Like we just were like, what do we do together now that we don't have that? Like I don't want my days to not have you in it.

Um, it was like this relational, let's think about where was there, to your point, where was there another pain point and you know, maybe it's like going to conferences can be expensive and we wanna try and level a playing field where people can get access to high content if they're just a small provider and not these huge providers. And how do we bring that to a space where, you don't have to pay or travel somewhere.

You can just do this in the comfort of your own sort of space, wherever that is. And so I think that the idea of Behavior Live came from that in the thought of, we know technology can solve problems. and Chris is such a brilliant technology brain and he knows behavior analysis now. Like he cares about it. He cares about the community. He's created friendships. And so he hears people saying this, this part sucks. I wish someone could fix this. And Chris is like, I can fix that.

Let's talk about how that works. And so I think that's sort of how Behavior Live came. But the long term, I think what we would like to do is, you know, certainly continue building out the relational side for sponsors as well. So how do sponsors get their information to people. Like how do you learn about other things?

How do small businesses, like we'd love to have not just the big, huge sponsors we see at every conference, but if there's someone who's starting off small, how do they get a toe into the market and help, and how do we get some equity in sort of the economic side of it. That's something that can be done through more of an online platform. But also to your point, these ideas of even remote mentorship opportunities, just all of that.

Can we build that around a system where people can manage CEUs, which can be really cumbersome, right? Like I can go see what I've taken, I can attend a conference. So I think our goal is to just continue looking at and listening, right? Talking to people and we ask people for feedback after events, you know, what's working, what didn't work. We get such good ideas if you just listen to the community.

Um, so yeah, and I think that, most of the Behavior Live users right now are consumers of the content. So to some extent, the, it's not that the mission changed, but, when this was just a blank slate, uh, one of the things that Chris talked about was, I also wanna, cuz there were other platforms where you could get CEUs, you know, online. Um, but he said, I also want a place where, smart behavior analysts can share their, their own content.

Like right now you have to go present at a conference or, or maybe you make a YouTube video and put it out there and hope somebody sees it. But he's like, if we can build up the, you know, the number of people that are in this community, then somebody who's smart and does good stuff can just say I wanna share this with other people and they can drop it into Behavior Live. In effect hopefully creating this huge web of content that is just really rich.

Um, so that obviously from a consumer perspective, there's more choice, but also from a CEU provider content, like people can say, how do I get my, my good ideas out to the community? Part of the business operating model, just to build on that, is that if someone does say, I have good content and I wanna get it out there and I want to use that platform, part of it is a revenue sharing, issue at Data Finch. So it's not like you present and then Data Finch gets all the money.

The, uh, this, the split, the idea is the content owner should get revenue for their content. And every time someone buys that, it's not just like, okay, you have a one speaker fee. It's like you get to have access to ongoing, and if it becomes incredibly popular, then you get more of that.

So it was just this idea of how can we do a platform that isn't just about Behavior Live getting big, but it's about content being shared and people getting value and paid for getting their information out there.

And one of the things that the author talks about is, um, figuring out which is the quote unquote hard side of the network. Which, which is the hard side to build, to attract, et cetera. How have you thought about like, which is the hard side of the network? Um, is it the presenters of Behavior Live? Is it the consumers, the conferences? How do you all think about that?

And then the I iPod comes around, right? iPad, all these, iPhone, all these other things. And so, does an entrepreneur need to have a vision? Yes. And you have to have strong conviction and you gotta tell that everywhere. And at the same time, if you are not constantly listening and taking that feedback from your clients, from team members, from the broader market or macro community, then you're cooked. Right?

Are there, are there any recommendations y'all have about how to be a good listener ongoing?

I mean, honestly, we don't make a ton of decisions without asking for advice from peers. So we've just made it very valuable to have lots of wise people, who are our friends and we can ask their advice. And, uh, you know, most of my friends are smarter than me and I'm just stealing their ideas. That's not true. You know, it's my statement was gonna be something very similar. Like, I remember when I got outta graduate school and I was like, okay, I have the degree, I'm ready.

I've got my new little briefcase. I'm supposed to know all the answers cuz I now have a PhD. So this really means I know everything and you know, you often hear, the older we get, the more we know, the less we know. And I think that's really how I approach, like I don't have to know all the answers, right? I think I'm a hard worker. I try to be an authentic person. I try to show up. I have ideas, of course I do. But to Coby's point, I don't have to know everything.

I have to listen and you know, when we take data, we're listening to behavior, right? I mean, that's what we do with our clients. We listen to behavior by taking data and looking at it. So why would we not apply that to the way we approach work? And so everything, so listen to your data, well, feedback is data, right? And hearing from people and getting that in and saying, wow that's a great idea. Oh my gosh, okay. I gotta find someone smart who knows something about that if I don't know.

Or I've gotta go research it, or I've got to get wise counsel from somewhere. I think we've always just said, don't pretend you know it all because obviously we don't, you know, we are fumbling around and making mistakes and laughing along the way and trying to do good, like trying to impact, you know, making a difference in the world and feeling like I'm contributing to something. So I, in the theme that you hear throughout everything that she's talking about is humility.

Humility to understand that other people might be smarter than you, that they might have better answers, and that you might not be the best at this. And if you think about the most successful people that you know, this isn't always true. Steve Jobs is a good example where it's not true. Um, but a lot of successful people I know are also very humble. They have the humility to recognize that they want my feedback. And, you know, in some situations it's like, why are you asking me that?

Like, you're, you're, you, you're, yeah, you're, you, you're so much better at this, but mm-hmm. And it, it's humility is a practice. You know, we define it based on how people behave. You can behave with humility even if that's not what's going on in your head. Uh, and that's like overcoming your, you know, your pride. So I would just say having the humility is a good way to listen. Mm-hmm.

And yet that goes against so much of what probably we're told about entrepreneurship from society, that you have to have these ironclad convictions cuz you're crazy to think that there's this organization that doesn't yet exist, but has to exist and you're gonna make it happen. Right?

but I, I think you described the answer there that humility is a practice and it, it can exist alongside that ironclad conviction that there's a different kind of world and organization that's gonna serve a mission. Right?

And one of those is, you know, there are oftentimes that I run across so many opinions of ABA, even like now, the anti ABA when we come in and believe we know best and act like we know best and not come in in a people-centered, sort of humble way to say, Hey, I've got a really amazing science and it's amazing and it can do things, but I'm gonna have to collaborate with other people, especially the more medical model we go.

There are other people at the table who know things about intervening with, intellectual disabilities and autism. they know things. And if we can't find a way to work together to better the world and better the lives of the people we all care about, then we're just, you know, building these big sandbox walls and pissing in each other's sandbox, which is not helping anybody. Excuse the full charity. Yes. But it's terrible. It, it, it's not, nobody wants that.

Um, you know, so what I would hope is that we begin to realize, we have to interact with others and we have to interact not only with our clients themselves, with the respect they deserve, but with other professionals that are bringing things to the table and learning. I would hope that as a science we can continue to do better at that. Because that is certainly a problem that I think we have had historically.

And you know, you can certainly disagree with me, but I just feel like I would tell people I'm a behavior analyst and I'd sometimes get, oh you're kind of a nice one, And I was like, that's so sad. Like, there are lots of nice ones. But you know, we have unfortunately an impression sometimes that that's not necessarily the case, which is sad.

You know, we have, we, the collective we are field has had to be fighters for so long, we've had to fight against psych boards that don't want to disavow us as being able to practice independently. We've had to fight against Medicaid and, and commercial insurance to get, um, funded. We've gotta fight against state legislatures. We have to fight ongoing every day for prior authorization, right?

We've grown up in this environment of fighting and so, you know, trying to step back and, and ask like, what is that environment that shaped us? And how instead of just trying to change that identity, which there's, to your point, Janet, there's a lot of bad, or at least hard to contend with behaviors maybe that make collaboration, um, hard. But that also is like a really important part of our identity.

And I wonder if, and I think you said this, We just have to turn that fight toward fighting for our kiddos and fighting for our team members. And as long as we're fighting in that vein and not fighting against other healthcare practitioners or against one another, I don't know if that's just a Pollyanna answer, but that's what it feels like to me.

Including people that are sort of more aligned with insurance and you know, what their interests are and, there was only a fight cuz it took a lot of time and a lot of work. Um, but ultimately we pushed that across the finish line through collaboration and kindness, uh, and working with other people instead of against them.

Every job I've had, uh, in our master's program, our PhD program when we moved to Atlanta. Well, I guess there was that one time when you were only working at ADI and I couldn't get a job. um, ,but we've always worked together, so we've always loved it. And we have thought about that question a lot when people ask us, and in part it's because we're both behavior analysts. Our mission, vision and values are perfectly aligned, uh, at home, at work.

I, think it actually makes things better instead of worse. Mm-hmm. Um, I will add just one tip though that I learned and Janet's my ally in this. Everybody almost has to make this mistake once before they learn this, but it's when you, type an angry email late at night and send it, and then the next morning you're like, oh, no, I, I shouldn't have sent that.

Um, so I developed this rule where any email that I send that's anywhere south of perfectly cordial um, I always wait 24 hours and often I'd say 75% of 'em I end up not sending anyway, just cuz you calm down. And I always have Janet read it first and give me her feedback cuz she's not mad. Uh, so the other 25% of the time she'll say, Hmm, I think maybe you should change this sentence or change that word. Or maybe you should consider whether you need to send this at all.

Um, and then there's a rare case where she's like, sounds good, send it. Do it, Sign my name on it. Yeah. So I tell other people like, You need a wise ally to do that, but Janet's always been my, you know, the conscience on my shoulder. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I would say, I mean, number one, marry a really cool person and it's easy. So I sort of hit the jackpot on marrying Coby So I think, you know, I, I came in with the deck stacked in my favor, um, there.

But I think from a perspective of what has worked, like understanding that, we both have had such similar experiences, but we have different learnings, right? So even in the same environment, it's not the same environment. Like I'm interacting with different people and we're doing different things. And so remembering that, um, you know, having respect for Coby and what he knows.

And again, that idea of, Hey, I need your advice on something, like, it has been so powerful for me to just run ideas by him and say, what would you do? Or how do you think about this? So that's been great. I will tell you a few things that I wouldn't do. I've learned not to do. I have been given feedback and trying to learn to not interrupt. Like we both get so excited and we both wanna get in in a meeting. It's like, hold back, let that person go, and vice versa. So we've worked on that.

You have been did better at that. Thank you. Thanks. Have time. You, me. Um, so, and then the other thing I would say is having times that aren't business, right? Like, especially we've raised children and it was easy for that to bleed all over into our lives. And there were times that we were like I don't, I don't care if the world exploded at work today and we're scared to death, this is about our marriage or this is about our kids.

There has to be a moment where we sort of have some stimulus control around that because we, we have two different relationships to tend to and care, um, in our relationship with work and our marriage. So, yeah. Yeah. So I'm so swimming upstream with this point of view, and I know this is contrary to what like anybody hears about this. When people talk about work life balance, I always think like, I, I want work to be fun.

I don't want these two things and this one's awful and this is great, and so I've gotta balance them. I want the people I work with to be my friends. So I don't think, well, no, this is work. And so this can't bleed over into my personal life. I am gonna spend so much time at work, I should really have a good time doing it. Most of the time, like I said, there are times where you still gotta do the taxes, but um, that's, you know, I don't have any work life balance, it's all life.

Like, it's just, I'm like, I'm like gushing, right now. Anyway, you are like models for this. Um,

no offense to, you know, accountants, uh, but most of us find it boring. Uh, but it's every bit as important. And the really big players, you know, that people hear about, and you know, the, the companies that are buying, they pay a lot of attention to that. So that's what I would say, start paying more attention to the business side of things. And I guess if I had to say a stop, I would, um, maybe say, stop thinking you have to do it all by yourself. Right?

So, you know, one of the things I loved so much about Kadiant is how much I learned in the opportunity to be taught by some brilliant people that I would not have had that opportunity. And so while that's the benefit of a very large organization, those of us who are small organizations, find a buddy, like whether it's a buddy from grad school or someone you meet at a conference like network.

Because even like if, if you don't wanna do it locally, like if you feel like that's bleeding in your own market, then find someone, like you and me, let's collaborate. Let's talk about, I've got a really good resource and I can help you. Like having a network of people,again, it's this idea of surround yourself with smart people. Can you benchmark with another organization? How long is it taking you to train your RBTs and are you having trouble with them converting their appointments on time?

Like how do you do that? I mean, our science is about making a difference and changing the world. So find someone that feels safe for you to say, I want a buddy with you because you know. ,we all get better. There's a quote a, a rising tide lifts all boats. Like that sort of helps our whole field. It helps the people we have the privilege to serve. So finding someone that can be that with you in some sort of relationship, I think would be a great thing to kind of start doing.

But stop thinking I gotta do it, just silently me alone. Collaboration is key, man.

But that's just, I need to start my day that way. But my. I need the exercise, but, um, it's really hard for me just to do exercise for the sake of exercise. What gets me in my flow state are three things, meaning I literally can't think of work or anything else. One is skiing, so I get that throughout the winter, um, especially if I'm dropping steep things and my sphincter tightening and I feel like I gotta put my, like, adult diaper on. The second is, is lead climbing, rock climbing.

We like to do that with, um, uh, with our kids in the summer. When I'm leading, like I'm, again, I'm puckering and I can't think of anything else. And the third is mountain biking. There's just something serene about being on a bike. All right. How about favorite song?

Mine's easy, Yellow Ledbetter by Pearl Jam.

You know, I was a guitar player, I was an introvert in high school. And um, to this day, for the last 30 years, Iron Maiden is like my favorite band of all time. And they have a song called Hallowed by thy Name. And can I let you in on a secret? I can't believe I'm saying this. I normally get to bed by 9 30, 10 every night. I was up till midnight last night. And do you know what I was doing?

I was watching those reaction videos on YouTube where like other singers, like rappers and other opera singers like watch it. And I watched two hours of them reacting to this song, Hallowed Be Thy Name. I know it's crazy, it's crazy, but it just fulfilled me so much

To yourself. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, I would say don't take out so many student loans.