My name is Jonathan Mueller. I'm the host of Building Better Businesses in ABA, and my guest today is Emily Smith. Emily is the CEO and founder of TeleTeachers, where success is showing up every day, giving schools the resources they need to put students first. She's a speech language pathologist and board member of the World Refugee School. Welcome to the pod Emily.
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
As am I, and let's dive right in with TeleTeachers. What's the pain point that you saw that led you to start the organization?
Well, you, as you said, I'm a speech language pathologist by background, so I found myself working in schools straight outta grad school and saw firsthand a pervasive shortage of not only speech language pathologists, but really certified providers to meet the diverse needs of students from special ed teachers to therapists, mental health counselors.
And so I wanted to build a solution that would help, make sure that every child, no matter where they lived, had access to high quality, intervention and instruction.
I think there's a key point here about like no matter where they lived, right? Cause we see, and we see it more generally in the ABA field is when you're in urban areas, and suburbs and major metro areas. You've got access to services, but you know, you get more rural and you don't have that access. And this is a huge, this is hugely driving a wedge, in my humble opinion, on all kinds of things in our world. Right.
But one of the really interesting things that I, that, um, that TeleTeachers teachers has pursued is this I Matter program and the Office of Behavioral Health in Colorado that actually white labeled your software. Um, tell me more about that program.
Absolutely. So this was a groundbreaking program. Colorado passed 9 million of grant funding in response to what they called the Youth Mental Health Crisis. So secondary to the pandemic, we know that, mental health issues, um, in, in youth is, is just exploding. and that's where we were able to look at the software that we developed to deliver remote services into school districts and say, Hey, I, I think we have close to what you need to be able to operationalize this.
So in the beginning we had conversations with the Office of Behavioral Health and said, you know, what do you need? How can we support this? And in less than 10 weeks, we took our platform, simplified it and built back according to what would enable, every youth in the state to be able to log into the platform independently and or with a parent and take a mental health screening, get those results, be matched with a provider, and even host the telehealth sessions.
So it was just a really remarkable opportunity where what we had already built and the services that we were delivering on the mental health side were the perfect compliment to the vision for this program that the state of Colorado had.
Yeah, I mean, I think it, not that anything good's come out of covid, but if there, if there have been things that, that have, changed how we think about our world that are positive, it is mental health, right? Like hopefully we're moving more toward a world that, it's not a taboo for, for me to talk about my ADD and generalized anxiety. Right? Or for anyone to talk about mental health, the way you talk about I, you know, spraining an arm or breaking a leg.
So I, that feels really powerful, the fact that like 10 weeks that you move that through is extraordinary. I mean, how's it been going, in the implementation and have, have kiddos been access connected to providers and successfully getting into screenings?
They have, it has been incredible to watch the momentum of this program. 15,000, sessions have already been delivered on the platform. Over 5,000 kids have, have gone through the mental health screening. And when you talk about accessibility, technology is just really enabling us to get to students in a way that is right for them. So this platform's available in English and Spanish, not just the screening, but also with providers as well.
So, it's, it has been growing, it's been youth led from day one. So you can imagine our product meetings at the, at the very early stages, we brought a group of youth together and said, Give us feedback on this. So they were able to pick the colors and the language and you know, the messaging behind, the marketing, all aspects of this. Which I think is awesome because as we look to lower barriers to entry, to to use seeking help, we have to create a platform that's, really approachable for them.
So that was, that was one of the things that was really, really interesting, to take place.
All right, so I wanna get this right cuz in, in software, I mean, and in designing any type of product or service, there's this notion of design thinking in which, I mean, effectively you're getting direct feedback very early on from your end users. But am I hearing you right? You actually had these focus groups of, of children who are gonna be using the platform who helped you get it right?
Exactly. Isn't that cool? And that was a mandate, that was a mandate from the state as part of this grant, which, how forward thinking, are they, to acknowledge that we're not just gonna put a product out there, you know, with all of the functionality that it requires. We're gonna look at this holistically and make sure that it appeals to, those we're trying to serve.
Wow. Okay. So I'm gonna be, I'm gonna try and be humble because I was not born in Colorado, but I like to say I got here as, as soon as I could. And so I've been a Colorado resident for 10 years, so that's awesome that my state like was forward thinking around this, I mean, do you have like examples of of how those kids helped you think about designing the product in a way that would be more accessible?
Absolutely. One example as we were doing like the intake forms, there were, special considerations,. So when you, when you go to schedule your telehealth session, it was a box that says special considerations. And they said, what does that mean? And so we, we, we were able to break it down and it was like, oh, well, do you want your camera on or off? What do you want the environmental background to, to look like when, when you log in with your therapist? That was one aspect.
And then so the platform prompts them to a page where, they are matched with a provider. So you see, a whole set of providers and certain bios about them along with their availability. So the youth can actually go in there and pick somebody that resonates with them and they gave us feedback of, you know, we don't care about their credentials. Like what, what are they like as a person? Who are they looking to help?
and so that allowed us to provide feedback, to the therapists on, you know, how to present themselves, to the youth. There was just so many eye opening, things that as you think through product development, Even, you know, as we looked at gender, as, as they're indicating gender, on the onboarding piece, you know, they, they were very adamant that this be inclusive. Gone are the days of male, female and gender dropdowns.
If we're not forward thinking and, and just making sure that we're inclusive in our product development and bringing the right people to the table, we could easily make missteps, that would cause people not to, you know, want to engage in the program. So it was just super powerful.
That's so freaking cool. I mean, I always talk about in organizations as as a leader, when you're looking for feedback and getting input, don't talk to your teams, like talk with your teams, have conversations, two way dialogue. And it sounds like that's exactly what you were doing here. If I were to step back just a little bit and, and think broadly about how you get kiddos or anyone successfully into services.
Am I right to think about it as like, it first starts with screening, like cast a really wide net to understand, who has needs almost like in, you know, in, in, in autism services, it's, you know, do the MCHAT at the 18 month and 24 month, well child checkup do it for everyone, right? And a screener is meant not to diagnose or something else, but at least get, a subset of those whom you think might need services. And then that allows you to focus resources on getting the right services.
But is that broadly the right way to think about and the right way at TeleTeachers, that you think about getting, users into services?
Absolutely. We were thinking about how youth get to this product. So the state did a, a broad marketing campaign on social media, which was really well received, even print materials. But where we saw the majority of referrals coming from was, were from the schools. So, kids would have behavioral, issues or needing help at, at the school and there were limited resources giving just the confines of a school district and their ability to, to support with the teams that they have in place.
So we saw a lot of school counselors referring to this program. So, in, in that respect, you know, no matter what the issue is, they have an outlet to be able to, send these youth to. So, they can then go through a screening and be matched to a certified provider. So it was really catching, I mean, there, was a, certain global aspect of this where whoever needed the service, the referral was right there and it was entirely accessible.
Uh, yeah, that, that feels really important. This idea of partnering with people in the local community, like guidance counselors at schools who are on the front lines, talking to kids all the time, to not only one, make them aware of services, but two, how to easily make a referral over to you. And that feels like, yeah, it's just, that's super forward thinking. So you're blowing my mind around this.
And you know, the, there's a lot of hype these days, clearly around digital health and there's, all these different, you know, the ginger.io s and and Teledoc and, and others out there. But you and I, Emily, have talked in the past about the importance of providing services plus technology. That is not just a technology solution or not just a services solution, but why is it so important to have both services and technology?
Mm-hmm. Well, it's been interesting because, you know, as an early stage startup in the fundraising environment, you really have to speak to the right investors that know the market to know how valuable this is. It isn't just a tech play.
You have to meet those folks that you're looking to partner with and, and meet their most basic needs first in, in partnering with schools, primarily, they're scrambling for people to, to help students and to oftentimes meet federal requirements for delivering these services. So they don't care what kind of tech you have to offer if you can't solve their most burning problem. So as I think about it, really what are the problems that we're looking to solve?
We're looking to deliver services to students, and we're looking to give technology to providers to enable them to do their jobs better and easier and make services more accessible. So those two things in my mind go hand in hand until we are able to solve this shortage of providers, which you know is not happening anytime soon.
No, it's absolutely not happening anytime soon. The other thing covid has done is just normalized this idea that you can get therapy. You can even talk to a primary care doctor via telehealth, right? Via video conference platform. So that feels really important. I'm curious, with the 15,000 sessions that have been held, do you have any, any data on outcomes or even anecdotal, on how it changes students?
Yeah, so, we're working on the data piece. So really one of the things that I've, I've loved about the partnership with Colorado is, is taking this one step at a time. Everybody always wants data. What are the outcomes of this program? And we're just not there yet, but we've done a really great job in one year getting services to kids, which considering the push behind this was the youth mental health crisis. We were in crisis mode, um, get services to kids, period.
Um, and now as we're entering year two of it, we're really thinking about outcomes and, and how do we measure those outcomes. So that's something that we've got top of mind. But we're not there yet. So we're of course reporting to the state on utilization and number of sessions and all of that. it'll be powerful when we're able to combine those pieces as well.
Hmm. Emily. This just feels to me like the future of how we help students. not just digitally, but how, in this case, like a public private partnership, it makes one plus one equal to three, and that's a huge part of what I've seen. I feel like it's powerful about TeleTeachers. But let me come back to this idea. you've gotta have both a services and a digital component. You can't be, just technology or just, um, a services organization.
And in my experience, it's super hard to have like, you know, great competencies, at both. It's just hard. There's different organizational DNA to being a software technology company versus a service company. How do you get good at being both?
Oh, it's hard and I'm not there yet. But, you know, part of being an entrepreneur is just learning every day. And no matter what anybody says, it's a learning journey. I guess one example that I've, done to try and, unite, I don't wanna say both sides of the house because we have. be aligned across the team, but you're right service providers have different needs than developers, and different metrics that we're measuring on, all across the company.
I've just tried to take baby steps in navigating this. One of the things that I do every week is send out an update, across the team. And I did this. this week so we presented the I Matter program along with the state of Colorado to state directors of special education at their annual conference. And like a, proud, proud mama bear I recorded as my team was, presenting and I sent that out to everybody.
Look at the amazing work that, that we're doing as a company that, folks within our organization have done. And, I got an email from our offshore product team, development team and they said, thank you Emily, for sending that. We are so much on what does this look like from a development, perspective that we love being able to hear how the end user is, is using this, and to hear those perspectives from a state level.
And so I think as a founder, as a CEO trying to navigate both sides of this equation just continuing to do little things that you think will help. There's no path here. But that was something that I tried to do, continuing to message, how we're making progress towards, the mission, metrics, how it's going to resonate. And I think that that does a lot for, aligning teams and aligning culture of the company.
Mm. 100%. It's as, as you described that Emily, you know, Element, for example, one of my organizations, we have a code of honor of like a dozen things that are sort of generally behavioral informed, but just how we work with one another and they are smile, everyone's voice counts, and the third is celebrate all wins. That's what I just heard you describing, right? Especially for our frontline team members who are just in the grind of the day to day work.
And there's so much to be done all the time. You, as a CEO and founder, helping to connect them to the effect that their behavior had, you know, the positive effect, feels so important to being connected back to the mission.
I, I love that that's one of, one of your, values or did you say, Code of Honor I love that. We have, we have one that's similar and it's called Champion Others. so, um, very similar, but every Friday we, we do a feedback Friday, shout out, um, on Slack, Champion Others. you've gotta just keep it interesting and fun and, I mean, we spend a third of our lives working or more So what are we doing here and why aren't we having more fun?
Amen All right. So now you gave me serious FOMO because Champion Others is so beautifully said. I might have to steal it. I'll, pay you royalties or at least the coffee next side we hang. Well, let me, let me pivot a little bit cuz you wrote something really profound that I actually, I'm gonna read. Then explain why I feel like it's so profound. So this is a quote from you, Emily. "The world needs more female founders and CEOs.
Every woman should have equal opportunity to create, and I'm proud to stand alongside women tech founders as we create scale impactful companies and build the future." End quote. So Emily, I love this so much and here's why it resonates with me. I have a seven and a nine year old daughter and I want to ensure that they have every opportunity that their older brother has, that anyone else would have.
And this doesn't get talked about enough, and especially some of the invisible barriers that come up. And I'm curious, what barriers do you see facing female founders and CEOs and, and how have you overcome those?
Well, thank, I mean, first of all, thank you for your conviction in this. I think that it starts with, people like you, fathers like you, who want better, for the world and, and for their daughters, and, um, championing this cause is is so important. So less than 2% of of venture capital dollars go to female founded organizations. It's astounding because our companies perform better, than many other companies that are founded, by men. And I think, not just women, but, underrepresented founders.
So what we're going up against, I mean there's, so much I could say about this, but, it, even, even when you're raising venture capital, the way, studies have portrayed it as women get asked about risk, management, and how are you, how are you, not going to run outta money. how is this company not going to fail? But when talking, with male founders, it's how are you going to grow this company and scale this company? And what could you do with more money?
the reasons behind this is because it's, it's an archaic structure, venture capital is dominated, by males. and it's, it's just facts.
And I think the more that we can have representation in this process, especially in, funds that are prioritizing diversity and investments into, founders that don't look like typical founders is, is really important and where I get really passionate is making sure that those of us, those females and other underrepresented founders are, are visible so that your seven and nine year old can see that, Emily or whomever my other tech founder friends are that are building companies that they're doing
it and they're, they're overcoming challenges and they're figuring out how to fund their companies when the odds are against them. And there's this concept of building in public, which is, it's really difficult. I mean, you know how it is being an entrepreneur, like sometimes it's, it's wildly overwhelming and you just wanna go into a hole and build your company and then come out when everything's successful.
But sharing sharing the challenges and making sure that you're very authentic and real and vulnerable in this, is is something that I'm passionate about, but is entirely difficult on the day to day to actually do.
It is. I, you know, I've mentioned a number of times on this podcast, a book called The Messy Middle, by Scott Belsky, who's, of Adobe and, and how this idea of starts, beginnings and endings get celebrated, in entrepreneurial endeavors, but no one talks about how hard it is in that messy middle. As you describe, the counter to that is build it in public and let people see your story. But gosh, coming back to this idea like fewer than 2% of, venture capital dollars go to female founders.
It's just us fucked up. What is a success rate of venture capital back companies? Something like 1 in 20. And that's just the nature of the, the business model, right? You sort of take these moonshot, cross your finger hopes put a little bit of capital in, and, but they're, they're risky endeavors and they grow.
And so, Women end up getting in this, in this field, in which one in 20 people are successful, and yet it's only women who get asked that much more about risk management and how to not run out of dollars. It's like blowing my mind right now, and I'm, I'm a little pissed off. I don't know any other color to that.
Oh my God, I could just talk about this forever. It's interesting because, you know, we also have disproportionate share of, of household responsibilities in many instances. So, you know, we're trying to build companies and, you know, grow companies, grow humans all at the same time. I was pregnant, fundraising, my first round, the round actually was fully committed the day I went into, labor with my first daughter.
Wow.
So that's a story for another day. But I remember in this fundraising process, I'm sitting here across from an investor who clearly, you know, he did not look like me. Um, I'm pregnant. And the first question out of his mouth was, how are you gonna feel when you need to be replaced when the company hits 30 million in revenue? And I sat back and I said, what makes you think I'd need to be replaced?
When it comes to product, founder fit, I lived the product and the services that we're delivering, but in his mind, he didn't think that that could scale past a certain revenue mark because I didn't have an MBA and I've never run, a company of that, size before. But those types of conversations that are happening when females step into the room, pregnant females step into the room with a viable business and product. That's bullshit.
And that's also what, I get excited about, overcoming those challenges and, saying, it doesn't have to be like that. Um, that's also an uphill battle.
well, I mean, you speak really convincingly. I mean, of the, the fundamental struggle that is entrepreneurship and that any entrepreneur just faces these extraordinarily long odds and has to overcome so much just to be successful, right? But I mean, that goes, I don't care what, what gender you are, that cuts across everyone. You know what I would love to say to that investor is be like, Hey, let me go ahead and put this baby in you.
You go deliver it tomorrow and let's see how, let's see how you feel. Big cool investor, dude. anyway, that I, I, thank you for, for your advocacy around this and you're exactly right. This starts with just awareness that there are some structural barriers, inefficiencies, screwed-upness I don't know what we want to call that in that system, and I have conviction that any system can change.
Um, but it has to start with awareness and people who are compelled to, help make sure it changes and provides feedback. So thank you for doing that.
Well, and I think it's also a huge opportunity as well. I mean at, even though we only get 2% of investment dollars, we don't have to take money from people that we don't align with. Even a challenge for the underrepresented founder is to find people that you align with because you know that person that, that was the initial dialogue probably, you know, isn't a good fit for how I wanna run my company.
So, no matter who you are fundraising, have as many conversations as you can and, and dive into, what this looks like and, and match well with those you choose to take money from.
Uh, it's such a great point because, you know, in my experience, I'll have a conversation with anyone, even though we are independent, both of my organizations Ascend Behavior Partners and Element RCM are independent. I'll take every investor phone call that comes across my desk. Why? Because I know in talking to smart people, uh, Hopefully those that are values aligned.
But either way, you're gonna learn something and, if you're not as an entrepreneur, farming for descent around your business model, farming for descent around product market fit, around market risk, technology risk, macro risk, whatever it might be, then it's easy to develop blind spots because as an entrepreneur you have to exist with this extreme optimism bias, right?
Which is so good for founding an organization and could be also really hard for, sort of that Jim Collins, from Good to Great, notion of confront the brutal facts but never lose faith. So that, that idea of talk to them all, pick the right values, alined one, but in the meantime see what you can learn. That feels really important.
I love that.
Well, you're a board member of the World Refugee School. tell me about that organization, your involvement.
This is a wonderful organization. I encourage everyone to log into their website and, and read more about it. We are working to educate the world's displaced children. So before the crisis, in Ukraine, there were about 80 million refugees over half of those refugees are children. And, many folks don't realize this, but the amount of time that, anyone spends in a refugee camp is about 17 years. So 17 years.
So if you're a child and you're displaced you are likely in that environment throughout the entirety of your education. and what we're working to do is create sustainable structures so that kids can, kids can have their education.
We are accredited by City and Guilds, so not only are they going through an education program, they're going through an education program and getting, that piece of paper that allows them to, have, a valid education no matter where they end up and it transfers with them. So our thinking behind all of this is that we have to create sustainability, we work with, local, education bodies to bring their curriculum onto the platform. We're delivering instruction and learning through technology.
So as we think about what is scalable, kids are logging into the world refugees platform, and every student is getting an adaptive assessment. So we're not just saying, you know, Hey, Here's a program for second graders and go. We're actually, I mean, it's just mind blowing. It's compared to what we're doing here in the US where, you know, we've got one program and you either fit in it or you don't.
We are, providing this adaptive assessment, we're tailoring, the curriculum and instruction for them. We're offering really, engaging learning both, through direct instruction sometimes hybrid, sometimes online, and with, more independent learning through the platform. So I'm just so proud to be a part of an organization that, is looking to solve this massive, massive problem, but in a sustainable way.
Uh, that's so powerful. the link, which I'll drop in the show notes, I believe is www.wrschool.org. I strongly encourage, um, uh, listeners to check it out, you know, as you're describing that emily, I, so my daughter's in second grade, here in Golden Colorado, and, at the, toward the beginning of the school year, they got a new kiddo in class, a new girl who was a refugee from, or is a refugee from Ukraine.
and you know what's really so deeply moving to me is how kids who, and kids are really adaptable. but how they just like enveloped her in this like warmth and love. And I'll never forget the one night that, that Gillian, my daughter, told me that they had a new student and my whole family, we went through, and, and learned and how to say hi and how to say a handful of other words in Ukrainian.
So I love the mission and I love what the school's doing, and I had no idea that the average, so 80 million children are refugees and the average time in a refugee campus, 17 years, meaning this is not a temporary displacement. This is something that lasts through really formative years.
it's, it's remarkably powerful, the influence that, that this has on on everyone, but particularly kids. And we know that education is powerful and it provides opportunity and, you know, no one is more deserving of that than, than children that have, had to flee their home communities, have experienced loss in, in such devastating ways. and so it is one part of the solution towards, doing what's right for humanity and caring about, solutions that that are effective.
Hmm. You know, I read a book, oh gosh, this is probably at least a decade ago by Dave Eggers called What is the What?
I don't know if you've come across it, but it talks about, the, Sudanese refugee program and, and it brings it to stark light, what a refugees experience is, not just in the refugee camp, but as someone is displaced from their home generally because of a clear and present threat to their lives and just what they have to go through and experience and the loss that they see around them.
The fact that, there's so much that happens to refugees that I think, you know, in our country we just, we, don't have a full appreciation for how hard that experience can be. And I'm curious, did you get involved originally through sort of TeleTeachers or was it totally random?
So TeleTeachers in my, is my second, company in this telehealth space. A few years back I was still working, on a mental health solution and, was invited to, visit one of the refugee camps, one of the larger ones in, Jordan, about 10 miles from the Syrian border.
Um, and the purpose was to go over there and, and kind of just be immersed in what that looked like and what the education looked like, and to see if there was any supports that we could put in place in the way of social emotional learning. As part of that I went over there having no idea what this was like. I just remember standing at the highest point of this camp and overlooking all of it and along with this group that I was at and, the emotions and the tears and, you're just overwhelmed.
And this little boy came running up to our group, he was probably five years old and he was so so happy and he came running up to our group and he just was dressed to the nines and, and he came up and he'd shook the, the leader of the group's hand and in a different language, he said something along the lines of, hi, great to see you. And to see that was just so powerful because, our children are so resilient and, that was something that I will never forget.
And I went back home to Chicago where I was living at the time in this, high rise, in downtown Chicago. And for weeks I was just devastated. I couldn't get out of bed. I'm like, what are we doing?
What am I doing with my life, and so it did take some time to kind of just readjust and calibrate and just, you know, be okay with the fact that, I was born into privilege and, it's a matter of using that privilege to bring good into the world and, to try and, align with organizations that are just so uniquely powerful. So that was my first experience and I'm just so grateful for that opportunity.
Wow. Uh, well, I can't wait to, to learn more about, the World Refugee School and, and check it out. and if, if any listeners wanted to help, what, what would you encourage them to do?
Definitely go to the website, educate yourself, follow, social media. They put out just a lot of really great facts, about, refugees and refugee education. And I think just the more that we can spread this, word. of course we're always looking for sponsors and donors and so if there's something that you'd like to do on that level. We have organizations that, that donate to help us with, marketing or whatever, you know, could be beneficial. Because we are a, a nonprofit organization, we.
uh, very much value our partners who, who help us spread this message. And also reaching out to me, personally, I'm happy to, to share more about the organization.
Right on. All right, well, before we get to the hot take questions, Emily, what's one thing entrepreneurs should start doing and one thing to stop doing?
Start owning your value This is so hard for us because there's no straight path forward in entrepreneurship. You don't know what this is going to look like years down the road you're creating something from absolutely nothing. and you're the perfect person to do it. If you have the idea, if you have the, the background, don't underestimate yourself. Start recognizing the value that you bring to the table.
And I think, not, not too conversely, but really stop, stop having any type of negative mindset. I know that's like a horrible thing to say and you can't really control that, how you're feeling about it. But I would say, along those lines of just make sure that you're prioritizing your mental health. Stop overexerting yourself. The company is you very much in the early days, and if you can't hold the vision and you know, get the company to, to a place where it can really thrive on its own.
So, stop, thinking that you have to work 24 7. Stop thinking that, this isn't going to happen if you don't do, um, xyz. That's totally unreasonable. Your listeners value mental health I am confident and that's been one of the biggest learnings around entrepreneur entrepreneurship that I've had to date.
I love it. Well, Emily, where can people find you online?
I am, on LinkedIn you can find me, um, Emily Smith, TeleTeachers you can also find me on Instagram at My CEO Story. I started a blog back at the beginning of the year, at myceostory.com. If you subscribe, you'll be like subscriber number 13 so I hope to get back to that, in some form of consistency. But it's, it's kind of, a fun project
Oh, that is a super cool project. Well, I'm gonna go subscribe. I have been, Instagram illiterate, and I, I know that's something I need to change about myself. Um, so, alright I'll check out my CEO's story on Instagram
or on Twitter, I, I do tweet at, uh, Emily Smith's CEO. So,
Awesome. I'll drop all of those, in the show notes. Alright, well, are you ready for the hot take questions?
Let's do it
All right, Emily, you're on your deathbed. What's the one thing you wanna be remembered for?
Um, being happy, being happy and leaving something that, can bring value into the world past my passing whether that'll be, you know, I don't know what that looks like, but just something, leave something that matters.
Nice what's your most important self care practice.
Every morning I write three pages. It's just a brain dump and it's following, uh, the book by Julia Cameron, the Artist's Way. And I found that that just adds so much clarity and creativity. If you just first thing in the morning, whatever it is, doesn't have to be anything fancy. Write three pages, and it's remarkable what that allows you then to do throughout your day.
Wow. That's Julia Cameron
Julia Cameron, The Artist's Way changed my life.
I am gonna write that down. Is that, is it important to do like in long form, like handwritten versus typing? Does it matter?
Um, well, she encourages handwritten, um, I don't know why. Maybe, I mean, maybe it was when the book was written, you know, everybody wasn't attached
Or just more tactile, right? Like, I don't know, it feels like it connects to experience
I, I don't get the same, hit from it if I am doing it on a computer. It's just like so wonderful being able to just like, feel the pen and feel the paper and like the connection between your mind and you know what you're writing. So
Oh, super cool. What's your favorite song?
Here Comes the Sun by The Beatles
Oh my gosh. One of my favorites when I was hiking the Appalachian Trail, and it was, we had like a month of rain in the six months of this like 2000 mile hike. Literally every day would sing that song and Blue Sky by the Allman Brothers. it worked on day 30 when day 31 became, became sunny. I dunno, it worked for my mood. How about that
that's cool that you did that. That's on my list.
Uh, yeah, it was a, it was a profound learning experience and one of the most fun things I've ever done.
Highly recommend.
Oh, I, I can't recommend it enough, in fact. And I like to say, I inspired my wife to do it. She'd probably disagree, but she did it three years after I did. When before we were even, as we just started dating, it was like 20 years ago. we still talk about, doing that, with our kids cuz it's just, it's yeah, changed my life.
Wow. Oh, that's amazing. Okay.
Well if you could give your 18 year old self one piece of advice, what would it be?
Slow down. Always just was, have always been just going a hundred miles an hour. Slow down, have more fun. I took a non-traditional path. I was married at 19. Um, and you know, I was living in Missouri at the time, so that wasn't too abnormal, for my community. But, um, yeah, slow down,
So true, right? Like there's, you do have a, at 18, there's like this perception that, um, everything you have to do in the next, like six months or three months, right? And yet you do have a whole life. All right, well, you can only wear one style of footwear. Which would it be?
Uh, Nike Air, Jordans Air Force One love that they're coming back in style. I wore them before they were cool. Let it be known.
Like as MJ because didn't Michael Jordan come out with the first was Air Force Ones, or I guess he did his Air Jordans
I don't know. I, I'm not all up on the like footwear timeline. I just know that I worn high tops for a really long time,
Uh, but you're, it's so true. High tops really went outta fashion and now everything's coming back.
Like the matching sweatsuit, you know, pair of air Jordans. I don't know how you can go wrong.
right Dude function over fashion and that is timeless. I don't care. Whatever the latest like fashion thing is. Well, Emily, this has been so awesome. Thank you so much for this conversation. I appreciate you.
likewise. I'm, I'm inspired.