Radio still has a great reach, but we have allowed the listening experience to deteriorate.
Brandwidth. Rebooting radio with a different take on all radio can be.
I think radio has to fail much worse before it gets better. Mm hmm. That's the controversial part.
Now your guides through the mediamorphosis, David Martin, and author of the book, Brandwidth, Media branding coach, Kipper McGee.
Hey Kipper, today we celebrate our 200th episode. We do it with someone well versed in navigating the ins and outs of the evolving media landscape. The celebrated radio veteran, Mike McVay, from an impressive programming run on the station and corporate levels, he now returns to consulting, which he's done before very successfully. Mike offers invaluable lessons for aspiring radio professionals on more things than you can imagine.
Program development, content perfection, navigating the ever changing media landscape. Mike shares the secrets to building, refining and perfecting your career in today's competitive media industry. Brain With On Demand is proud to welcome back for our 200th episode, Industry Sherpa, Mike McVay. Hey Mike. Hey.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But, and what an honor to be on the 200th episode of your podcast. I, I, I'm sure I don't need to tell you gentlemen how amazing that feat is to be 200 episodes in. Congratulations. I appreciate the opportunity.
Well, we are so glad to have you. What advice do you have for professionals entering the new leadership roles that are emerging, the new title changes, the new actual shifts in responsibility to adapt to organizational culture and Still drive positive change in a very sometimes negative world.
Well, I remember years ago, one of my bosses when I suggested we give someone a title said to me, well, my experience is people elevate to whatever that title is, and they'll try to do that job. And so titles are really very important. And as the business has changed, content creator means so much more today than it did when we were lowly program directors. And I joke when I say lowly program directors, because that job's still very much the same.
It's just, I guess we were always content creators or brand managers in what we created. I think that the thing I would tell to people today who are entering radio is, radio is mass media, but you want to take advantage of every part of niche media It's involved with this mass media, meaning, yes, be over the air and on the radio or be a content creator, developing things that are for over the air on the radio, but also utilize social media as a way to drive people to the brand.
Utilize digital in any way you can, YouTube, video, audio, every platform, podcasting, and then make sure that a smart speaker and an app can get all of it. What we've seen over the last few years, particularly the pandemic, is the acceleration of people listening to bytes of content versus sitting down and devoting hours for content. And so I think that that's one of the big things that's changed. Now, why do I qualify mass media versus niche media?
Mass media reaching everyone is still important to drive niche media. Niche media has a difficult time surviving on its own. Niche media is exactly that. When you look at the DSPs, which are, you know, Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, so on, that's an amazing business. And for all intents and purposes, it has become the record store for today. But radio, media in general, mass media has a greater reach than what any one of these DSPs have.
And so that's what I would say to someone coming in today, be prepared to use it all, not one part of it. But use it all.
And Mike, what do you see in terms of new challenges on the horizon? If you look out a bit, maybe a couple of years down the road, what do you see coming that media companies are going to have to deal with?
Well, I think that they're dealing with a lot of it now. Probably the most controversial thing I can say is the audio media companies, and let's say radio, whether you're hearing it over the air or on a stream or an app somewhere. Radio still has a great reach as mentioned, but we have allowed the listening experience to deteriorate. And so what the biggest broadcast groups will have to do is find new ways to generate revenue while bringing back the listening experience.
And so the controversial part of it is this. I think radio has to fail much worse before it gets better. That's the controversial part. Just because right now people still generate revenue. They may have debt problems. But they're generating revenue. And until we get to that point that someone can bite the bullet and run fewer commercials and reinvest in the product, we'll see a continual deterioration, but at some point it will get good again.
I'm not a naysayer saying it's never going to come back. But I think we've got to fail more before anyone can bite the bullet or that they can sell to someone inexpensively enough that they can invest what it takes to bring the old girl back.
Yes. It's struck me that one thing that might do that is some sort of major disaster or occurrence that causes people to need radio because you're not going to have internet with no power grid. And if I were attacking us, the interweb is probably one of the first targets I'd go after. So we can laugh a bit at it, but those old C Crane commercials for the hand crank radio that might have reality as well and may just have.
Yeah. Yeah,
I don't know. May just have a little influence in the need for that again. If the thermonuclear weapons don't nullify everything we're trying to send out.
I hope it doesn't take a nuclear war to bring radio back. But I do think that, the major companies, look, they, these companies have debt problems that were created by the early consolidators. For most part, you have a new group of operators in there, and they're bailing water as fast as they can.
But I think that until that debt goes away, they're not going to be able to fix the challenges that face radio because no one can afford to cut back on commercial load and generate less revenue right now.
Well, I'm with you. I'm with you.
And great morning duos are becoming singles and the cuts keep on keeping on.
Yeah. Yeah. It appears that way right now for sure.
Speaking of budget cuts and things that have been trimmed back from what they once were in a recent column, you suggested that we approach radio marketing with a fresh perspective in some stations are starting to do that. Some companies are, but most are not. Could you elaborate on how you see stations adopting innovative strategies to really rejuvenate their brands and to engage with their listeners, as you were saying?
You know,
it's really practicing what we preach. And so many radio stations, many radio companies are now trying to battle with the digital ad sellers.
They're out there selling digital ad space in Google ads, they're doing Facebook, they're attacking social media. They should be advertising their own brands in these areas. They should be promoting something that could bring a person to a radio station or could create an interest in that radio station.
Digital is such a key competitor to radio, and when I look at what my friends who are in the advertising business do and how they've taken radio and TV dollars to focus on neighborhoods with digital ads, It's scary. And so that's exactly what we should be doing for ourselves in using digital marketing to promote our talent, the music we play, the content we air, the sports talk and so on.
Excellent point, Mike.
I would also say this though. One of the things that I learned at the most recent NAB is how Geo broadcasting systems and targeted broadcasting can allow an advertiser to buy a neighborhood instead of buying a huge reach. And so a very good friend of mine in the Cleveland area buys advertising for JD Byrider, and the only thing he really buys in radio and he is more radio or TV, is sports.
And so when we were talking about it, he said, the thing is this, I put so much of my money into digital because I can better target it when I buy advertising. I don't need the 200,000 person Cume on a morning show. I need 25 people to come into JD Byrider and purchase a car this month. And so I think geo broadcasting targeted broadcasting, which the FCC has out there and is approving, that's going to be something that we can take advantage of as sellers.
For advertising, but also for marketing and delivering content that's better targeted.
You've made a point of this many times over the years, and that is leaving a station better than you found it. How do you do that today?
I think the easiest thing to do is do your job while you're there. We're all hired in the content side to improve ratings. We're all hired in the sales side to improve sales. Do your job and accomplish that. And then as you're exiting, train your successor. Inform your successor. Bring them into the loop and be a cheerleader for them to help them do better.
We, particularly in programming, maybe not so much in the other sides of the business, but particularly in programming, all too often when a program director leaves a station and it's maybe third in the ratings and they're very proud of it, And it goes down, it becomes an ego boost to them because they're saying, see, look what I did. They can't get, they wish they had the ratings I used to have,
right.
But your job is to make it better and improve it. So it continues to improve. And what really prompted all that was I was in a Cleveland radio Facebook group. And someone had taken a shot at me not realizing I was part of the group. And by the way, I don't mind that because if you're going to put a spotlight on yourself, you got to be ready for people to throw tomatoes. But the comment the person made was, is what has Mike McVay ever done in Cleveland radio?
Every station he ran did better after he left. And my response was, Isn't that what it's supposed to do? I signed magic in Cleveland on from scratch and we built it up to number one, 25, 54 adults and the people after me did really well with it and made it even bigger. Wasn't that what's supposed to happen? And then now shift that as a consultant, if you hire me to consult you and the station fails, then I'm getting fired.
But if you've hired me to consult you, you've hired me because you want to improve where the station is. And make it better. And so it should be set up that it continues to do well after a departure of whoever your consultant is. And so how do we do that today? It's when I said, Dave, I think you do your job to the very best, but then you hand that baton. To the person coming behind you. That's what you do.
So Mike, we talked a little bit about what this means for corporations and what companies are going to be facing looking into the future. But if we turn the lens and look more on the content creators, the air talent The promotion people, even the online folks, what do you see as an opportunity for individuals to position themselves for that success amidst the ongoing challenges, changes, and yes, people who would like to put them down for doing better or put the station down for doing worse.
Well, I mean, there's a book that I love called the Brand You 50. that Tom Peters had done years ago, and it's a book that I recommend to a lot of different people because it's talking about you as an individual brand and one of the lines in there, which, by the way, also comes out of the One Minute Manager, which is when I give my clients what they want I get what I want.
And so if I am successful as a program director, brand manager If I am successful as a promotion director, if I'm successful as a seller and I give you what you want, I get what I want. And so I think that the opportunity for individuals is to excel at your job. Unfortunately, editorial comment, he says, I believe we're living in a world where a lot of people just are happy to get through. And that's not just our business. It's every business. And so I never considered myself that smart.
So I decided I had to work harder and I did okay by working harder. I still, today I'm a nine to nine guy, start my work day at 9 AM. I finish it at 9 PM. Cause that's 6 PM in the West coast. And I have clients that are bi coastal. And so if I do that, I know that I'm giving my clients what they want. And it allows me to continue to excel at what I want. So how do people who are individuals inside of an organization do the best job they can? Figure out what it is.
Your superior leader wants and deliver that and if you don't want to do that, then you should leave You should leave the people that I talked to who tried to change the system Often end up failing and get fired Because they just weren't a cog that worked. Now that's a sad statement, right? Because there's a lot of brilliant people who've been eliminated from jobs where if they were allowed to do it the way they wanted, they probably could have succeeded.
But there's also that possibility that doing the way they wanted would have brought down other parts of the radio station. And so you got to be a team. You know, how often do we see a great quarterback, a pitcher, a goalie in hockey, who doesn't mesh well with the team they're on, and they leave, and then they win a Super Bowl. Or the Stanley Cup, or Major League Baseball World Series, and there's no better analogy than looking at what we content creators do, than sports.
You gotta be on the right team that will maximize your ability and take advantage of it. And you fighting with the manager just gets you benched. Find the right team.
The always insightful Mike McVay, after 200 episodes we've talked to a lot of guests, but not everybody. If there's something you'd love to hear from or a topic you'd like us to explore, well, let us know. Email us show at BRANDwidth on Demand.com or reach out to us on social BRANDwidthPlus on Instagram, Facebook and X that's BRANDwidthP L U S. BRANDwidthPlus.
If you're new to the podcast, we'd like to say welcome and please be sure to follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you've been with us for a while, Please be sure to tell a friend, spread the word future episodes: we're going to be talking to radio pros like David Moore from the Audacy Phoenix market, media researcher turned top rated podcast producer, Mark Ramsey.
And if you've been wondering how Chat GPT can help with local show prep for local hosts, stay tuned for the announcement of Radio Content Pro.
Coming up, we asked Mike McVay about advice.
Luke? Leia? Not likely.
Hey, kid. Where is that sound coming from? I don't know. That's 3-PO. Well, sir, it's Altu. He's been playing music all day. Well, it's terrible. I like Bruno Mars as much as the next guy, but three songs by him in 20 minutes is getting a bit old. Well, sir, what time is it? I've heard about Musicmaster. They're the galaxy leader in music scheduling. There really is no other. Not so fast. There is another side. No thanks. But Luke, I am what? Part of the evil empire? Yeah, we know.
That changed to a maybe. Nice job, kid. For details on how you can get out of this world ratings, perfect rotations, and a sound as smooth as butter, go to musicmaster. com.
Imagine having your own prep team, working non stop. A producer picking the best content, a copywriter making every story hit home, and a marketer finding new ways to grow your audience. All while a digital team keeps your feeds fresh with posts, updates, and videos.
What if these pros were available 24 seven market exclusive and affordable for your radio station, power up your content before the competition does with radio content pro see the demo in action, just scroll down the show notes or visit RadioContentPro.Com slash BRANDwidth.
Listen today, lead tomorrow, Brandwidth on Demand.
We're talking with an industry thought leader that we all respect, Mike McVay. Hey Mike, what's the one single best piece of advice you've gotten in your storied career?
Wow. I mean, I've had so many mentors and learned so many things from so many people. Probably there were a couple of brothers. Yeah. Jim and Bob O'Brien who owned radio stations in Canada and one time we were sitting in a meeting talking and I was talking about the strategy and the steps we had to take to get where we wanted to be and Bob O'Brien said to me, You know what? Why wouldn't we make our best move first?
Everybody always says we're going to do this, we're going to do that, and then we'll make our best move last.
Oh yeah.
Why wouldn't we make our best move first? And that one really stuck with me. I don't think it's applicable to every situation to be honest, because there are times when we know we have to go from A to B to C to get to D and have D shored up and do well. But it was one that really stuck with me.
You know, the biggest thing that I've presented to programmers, and I'm going to divide it out a little bit, cause the job changes, but with programmers, it's the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And so when you're treating talent poorly, that's bad, Treat talent the way you want to be treated, communicate upwards to your superiors, the way that you would like to be communicated with.
And so for the content creator side, I really try to get them to understand and apply the golden rule on the side of management. I try to get people to have a more global view cause it's so easy to be in a smoke filled building and not see the exit sign. And so if I can get people just to hit pause, to step away. And see where the fire started, then there's a greater chance for them to put the fire out.
And then probably one other one that I learned, Musicmasterwhen I got to one of the big three radio groups and that is the weight of your words are heavier than ever and the ripples they create greater than ever. When I came from the consulting world and Dave, you and Kipper both worked in large corporations and had those big executive roles. But my last full time job where I wasn't self employed was 1984.
And so, when I joined Cumulus in 2011, September 2011, You know, as a consultant, while people do consultant jokes, by and large, they like you. Suddenly, that wasn't the case. Suddenly now, I'm in a corporate world, and everything I say is put under a magnifying glass. Or everything I don't say.
Yeah, right!
Why was that omitted? And that's put under a magnifying glass. And so one of the many times, I mean, in the first year at Cumulus, I used up about five of my nine lives and in one of those cases that then CEO pulled me in and said, you know, Mike, in this role, everything you do will be scrutinized. The weight of your words heavier than ever, the ripples they create greater than ever. And that's probably the wisest thing I've learned. Yeah. That's a great advice.
Yeah. Our thanks to Mike McVay, he's always on time, isn't he Kipper? Links to Mike's website, socials, and recent articles all in the show notes. Just scroll down on your phone.
As always, special thanks to exec producer Cindy Huber for putting everything together and to our associate producer Hannah B for booking.
That's a wrap, Kipper. We can all learn something from the words of Jerry Garcia. Don't be the best. You'll find it in the show notes. It's the new One Minute Martinizing. I'm Dave Martin.
And I'm Kipper McGee. May all your BRANDwidth be WIDE!