I think, uh, you know, a and fm unfortunately, while it has legs on the older end, for a younger end, it's just, you know, it's yesterday's technology. It's welcome to brand with on demand, your guide to rebooting radio, radio expenses to operate. It's not how much money it, it's brain power.
A great example I like to look at is Southwest Airlines when they launched, you know, they didn't have a lot of money compared to United, develop American, all those guys, but they just came up with new ways of running an airline and uh, you don't see radio stations, you know, when they say they're innovative, they're not
BRANDwidth on Demand. Rebooting radio with a different take on all radio can be. Now your guides through the Media Morphasis david Martin and author of the book, BRANDwidth, media Branding, coach Kipper McGee.
Our guest this time has dedicated decades in the trenches, reinventing radio and TV, news and print, and so much more just media. He was also the driving force behind what's called satellite radio. Lee Abrams is passionate about the past, but he's focused on the future. He's held a number of posts for large and influential companies. He's generally credited with inventing album, rock radio and so much more.
He's consulted over a thousand radio stations along with print publications, TV stations, cable networks. Newsweek Magazine listed Lee as one of their 100 cultural. And he was cited by Radio Wink as one of the 75 most important radio people of all time. He's been inducted into the Rock Radio Hall of Fame, legends of Rock Radio programming category for his work with W R I F Detroit, and he now explores current thinking and Visions for Brilliant Medium. The 21st Century.
BRANDwidth On Demand is proud to welcome the one and only Lee Abrams. Hey Lee.
Hey. Hey. This is good.
Well, we're glad to have. You know, you've been talking in terms of what we call branded media content using and even needing other distribution platforms for ages. So the question is really how do you see traditional broadcast radio faring today, and are you seeing any examples of great integration between the various platforms for our radial.
No, you know, not really. I think the biggest problem is the radio brands themselves being really, um, you know, they're successful ones, but generally, really out of date, uh, in terms of its, uh, the creative approach. And when you get to younger audiences, the whole medium. Is pretty much part of their past rather than present. So I think it all boils down to, uh, just some really dramatic re-imagination of, uh, radio stations and how they sound before even worrying about other platforms.
And looking around media and music, people leave, you've noted a lot of negative emotions. Scared, defensive, confused, paranoid, backward, looking, nostalgic for the old days, or even worse, operating as if it were still the old days you were, if you were handed a full market, uh, FM signal in, in one of the biggest markets, most competitive markets in the country. What might you do with it?
Well, uh, sitting, you're not making a lot of money and, uh, and very successful and there's plenty of stations that aren't making a lot of money and, and successful. I'd really go into the laboratory and pretty much evaluate the current state of radio, where it's been and where it can go and just create, generate some blatantly and noticeably different new ideas. Um, ones that people go, holy crap, what is.
And, uh, it's not unlike, um, you know, the same effects some of the great radio stations had in the past. I know when, like, going way back when the case Jay launched, it was like, wow. Oh yeah. And, and even the loop in Chicago and uh mm-hmm. stations that we all know and remember, but their whole attitude toward presenting radio was so different. I mean, nowadays, I call it condensed radio. stations will, uh, will make a format change and Tesla library.
and, uh, write up some liners, maybe get a morning show and throw up some billboards and that's it. Whereas the Great Stations, it lasted 10, 15, 20, or more years. Dominance Boy, when they set it up, it was like Schwartzkoff setting up the, uh, the Gulf War. It was a mm-hmm. amazing effort.
I mean, it took weeks, if not months of planning and preparation and fine tuning, and then you pull the switch and it was like, and for example, there's a station here in Chicago which changed to a hard rock format. And I mean, it's just, it could be a station in Amarillo. Yeah. Uh, yeah, it, it could be amazing. It could be, uh, mind-blowing, head burning, rock and roll machine, and it's not, and it's got a one or two sharing. It'll probably stay there until they change formats again.
So, um, I think the, uh, the biggest thing is the way radio programming is approached as a mission rather than just something, see, you slap. and a lot of people will say that, well, there's no budget. It's not budget, it's mind power, not, not money. Power, well and focus right. Yeah,
I remember one of Berry's greatest lines when asked about the rock and stereo thing, which you were a part of at a abc. Yeah. Like, you know, what, were you ever asking for money or ever worried about budgets? And Henbury said, who needs budgets? Na, you need,
and I remember
at Wif F in 19 70,
71, Uh, there was no budget and we were number Yeah, 12 to 24. We beat C K L W consistently. Oh yeah. You know, jocks were making nothing. And there's promotion budget. That was a joke. Uh, you know, through mind power we're able to, uh, really tap into the, the community and, uh, and score with it. And people aren't thinking these days, or if they are, they're thinking about just rote mechanics and just the, you know, the very basics to get something on the air and, mm.
rather than thinking of a whole game plan and how to just dominate your target audience, doesn't it
seem that sometimes some of the bigger companies are really worried more about fear of loss than they are
desire for gain, you know? Oh, sure, sure. You know, there's a lot of innovation in radio,
all on the financial and operations side. Most of
it's not good news for listeners. Right. Uh, but. Yeah, I, you know, my, my, uh, comment to them would be, if your station's number one and dominant and making a lot of money, you know, great, go for it. Ride it out as long as you can. But if there's a station that's just not performing well, that's the one you can take incredible risks with. And, uh, lets, and,
and try new
things. And I don't say anybody trying new things other than, you know, just offshoots of what's already been done that aren't what I call noticeable. Mm-hmm. it's like, uh, Just more of the same and, uh, with a different twist. Maybe a new liner or slogan, but, uh,
yeah, relabeling. The carts, right? Yeah.
Well, shifting gears just a little bit, you've expressed some mixed emotions about streaming media, particularly about last mile issues into the house, yet one of your creation. XM Satellite Radio is now encouraging consumers with their partner serious to listen to the app when they're not in the cars. Question. How do you see streaming media and particularly in audio fitting into the Mediascape now, especially in the G
five era? Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's the new radio band.
You know, we had AM and we had SM and now. Streaming. And I think,
uh, that's where the future is. It's gonna get real scary for terrestrial radio when a lot of the streamers, the Apples and the Amazons figure out how to create the radio experience. Cause right now they're jukeboxes and uh, and, you know, it serves a purpose. But when they're able to create magic between the songs and a whole new level, that's where it'll get really interesting. I mean, just. I've talked to 'em, and a lot of 'em are just, um, you know, technology people.
They don't understand the, the radio experience mm-hmm. and as a result of that, uh, you know, very technically sophisticated way of presenting music, but there's no magic to it. There's no soul
to it. So when I think if and when they, uh, they
get on the, uh, into the radio experience game, which elevates streaming from just a lot of songs into something higher and. That's where they'll, um, I mean that, that will be real serious. And, uh, I think, uh, that's coming. I just think, you know, a and fm unfortunately, while it has legs on the older end boy, younger end, it's just, you know, it's yesterday's technology. It's, and uh, it's sort of like, um, little nostalgia to it.
Like when I was a kid, I used to, uh, we used to go on train trips and trains are. but you know, that's over. Uh, and sometimes radio reminds me of trains and, uh, you know, we've got a lot of amtraks out there instead of uh mm-hmm. jets. So, um, yeah, I, I just think on the younger end,
there are formats
I think that can be done to increase the, um, younger people, but I think it's gonna age itself out over time. unless some people take real aggressive steps to do some, uh, younger focus programming, it's really innovative and there's some ideas out there, but nobody's doing them well.
You were spending a lot of your time lately, Lee, on news content and specifically kind of reinventing TV news. Right. And what do you see the role of Radio News now, however, just focusing on audio again,
beyond. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think radio news really does a good job. The market by market, uh, here in Chicago, I think, you know, BBM is a great utility, but I think as a medium, uh, news radio is also, could be really elevated through some new thinking. And, uh, that would mean a, a new approach toward product. Um, toward formatting, really looking at the news format, blowing it up, and uh, if News radio had never been created, what would it sound like in 2022? And I bet
there's some new ideas that
could be interjected into it, but I think it's a, um, of all the radio formats, it's probably among the most stable and, uh, and most listenable. But I think, uh, like all radio playbook was invented, you know, decades ago and could use freshen. Without, uh, harming their current. and I think that's exciting.
And speaking of freshening up, uh, recently you pointed out in a blog post, some 21st Century Media myths. We linked to that article in the show notes, but for our purposes, what are some 21st Century radio myths that you're seeing? And how can the industry overcome them? Or can they
Well, that's a good question. I think, uh, one of 'em is radio is local. When a tornado hits in, uh, Missouri, where do people go to their local radio station? No, they don't. They're probably got a TV or, or internet. And besides, there's probably nobody in the station listen to news station, but if it's a music or a station, there's nobody there. It's probably being voice tracked on it from hundreds of miles away. So the myth that radio is local, It's just that a myth.
And, uh, there are still some great local stations, but you know, you can count 'em on your fingers. But generally speaking, you know, it's, it's not a local medium anymore. If it is, they're just not taking advantage of it. Transmitter might be in a given city, but you know, Other than that, it's like usa. When I was a kid, we, uh, traveled
from, grew up in Chicago and we go from Chicago to
Miami on holidays. And he had traveled through Indianapolis and Louisville and, uh, Nashville, Atlanta, Jacksonville, and eventually hit Miami. And every one of those cities you went
to
sounded different. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it wasn't the music, music was generally the same with a few local hits maybe, but it, uh, you know, remember going through Atlanta and Quick had Southern Accent and they were talking about, uh, stone Mountain and they were talking about, uh, the Atlanta Underground. Yep. You go to Miami and they're doing surf contests and. you just don't see, it's generic radio now, and they, they're not tapping into their community a bit.
And so I think that's a, a key factor is, uh, local radios shot itself in the foot. Another myth is 92% of the people listen to radio every week. Granted probably an accurate figure, but how many of them are fans? Uh, radios turn into utilities like the cable company and people are cutting. Uh, so it's got users and not fans, whereas it used to have fans. Uh, when was the last time you saw a radio station bumper sticker in their car? It used to be like flags. Mm-hmm. And the fandom is gone.
And while people listen, you know, against utility that people are gonna be cutting the cord with, uh, in fact radio breaks. Music, you No, it doesn. Uh, it used to, but now more music is broken on the tos, word of mouth and already is lost that position. It uh, it's very reflective of what's happening musically rather than, uh, you know, creative. It's not defining the new artists, it's not, uh, working toward breaking artists. Uh, and again, it used to. Uh, so that's
another big
myth. And, oh, let's see. There's plenty more. Uh, lemme think. radio, you know, is expensive to operate, you know, to staff it up. And again, like we talked earlier, it's brain power. It's not how much money you have. You know, a great example I like to look at is, uh, Southwest Airlines when they launched, you know, they didn't have a lot of money compared to United Adult and American, all those guys, but they just came up with new ways of, uh, of running an airline. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And, uh, you don't see radio stations, uh, you know, when they say they're innovative, they're not. If you read some of the, uh, mission statements in the lobby of radio station, you'd laugh. There's just not true. We support the community. We are on the leading edge of music. It's like all just nonsense. Mm-hmm. So another myth is, um, that radio's great. Radio's, innovative radio's on the cutting edge. You know that that's not false, that's just a lie. Um, and again, self-inflicted. Let's see.
Oh, radio. Uh, people don't care about personalities. I hear that a lot. Other than the morning go mis turner or that they don't because there aren't any, if there were some that really shooken up, yeah, they could raise band bases. But it's, you know, a world of, uh, generic card readers. And, uh, unfortunately a lot of the great new talent, I don't think are going to radio. They're, uh, they're. They're, you know, online or internet or other places.
So, um, see radio is, um, oh, live and local. You know, it's not live. Occasionally it is, but generally it's not. So there's always myths usually said, uh, by the trade papers and by, you know, the organizations that are in business to support radio. but, uh, they're fooling themselves. I mean, this needs surgery, not band aids,
and, you know,
just mind power innovation, uh, looking at what you're doing, how can it be better? And we have a slogan called A F D I, which means, I guess I can say actually fucking doing it. We invented
that at expat
where, um, we first got there, we started having all these meetings. It got real. Do we have a blues channel? Well, maybe not. Let's discuss it. Let's research. No, I mean, we got a hundred channels. We're gonna have a blues channel with a f d I. Um, and where, where that, uh, term really originated from was when I was a consultant. I go into a market that had a station, had a three share, they used to have a seven, but now they're really in the toilet down to two or three. And I'd get with the
manager
and, um, say, why don't we get you the program director, the chief engineer, the sales manager, and everybody who has a say, uh, in the future of the station. Let's get, get together in a hotel suite, bring about 10 radios, listen to all the competitors, bring lots of legal pads, and just tear everybody, including ourselves. they're great ideas. We'd go to a hotel room, a hotel suite, and make notes and talk.
And by the end of the session, which probably about four in the morning, uh, I'd have, you know, stack of legal pads full of ideas. And as a consultant, I would leave the market, uh, and come back next month. And I remember coming back next month with these legal paths and saying, wow, that was a great session. Uh,
so where do we stand on this? How about
this? Well, we, we decided not to do that. Okay. How about this? Well, we had a little, um, stash vote on it, and we passed. Okay. How about this home office? Never let us do that. How about this? Uh, we forgot about that one. How about this? Uh, yeah. Yeah, I guess we should do, bottom line is
they did nothing
and the maintenance came out was another two eight. And, um, you know, that's where we came up with the idea of, uh, a. Come up with ideas and they're not gonna threaten the license or get you in legal trouble. A FBI why you do it? It's a lot of 'em. Comes down to, I call creative batting average. It's like in baseball, if a hitter hits 300, they're an allstar. That means out of every hundred at batts, they could strike out 70 times. But if they get 30 hits, they're stars.
In radio, everybody's betting 0, 0, 0. Not even stepping up to the plane, they're in the dug. And, uh, thinking, oh yeah, I'm gonna really hit one outta here, walk out to
the plate, and they go, nah. And then walk back to
the dark eye. But they talk a
lot about it though. They talk a
lot about it. Yeah. gotta take swings. Radio people
talk a lot.
They do. I guess it's in their dna, but, um, yeah, it's, uh, taking swings, taking, uh, and also there's this, um, it seems like there's an fcc. The stations have to use lines like the most variety uh, or they have to name themselves after like, uh, Fresh and breeze, which sound like laundry products, And that, uh, at top of the hour you have to play a power song. And it's like everybody tunes in for this great song.
No. And then it is just, you know, you can make a list of 10 pages long of things that, uh, are these like fake FCC laws that everybody abides to but are announcing.
And
self-examination is really important. Being able to take your station. And here you ego and just like, okay, what do we gotta do here? And a d i and, uh, the stations are even going through that exercise. And particularly as, uh, Dave mentioned earlier, you know, some stations have, uh, program director has 12 stations, but, um, that's something that needs to be rethought. Again, I'm not saying 12 program directors, maybe different levels of management at.
Um, balance where you got, uh, technology, where the engineers making a signal. Great. You've got sales and administration and the management. What about creative? Uh, create a internal structure that embraces new thinking and creativity. Right now, I think everybody's too busy and but if you really rethink. Um, maybe de maybe have a creative direct whose, uh, mission is to, uh, rethink things. Mm-hmm. but Right. Cause it's nothing done right now.
And I certainly am sympathetic to the guy who, lady who left to run a dozen stations. Well, we had a little, um, station vote on it and we've passed. Okay. How about this home office? Never let us do that. How about this? Uh, we forgot about that one. How about this? Uh, yeah. Yeah. I guess we should do bottom line
is they did nothing.
And the way came out was another two eight. And you know, that's when we came up with the idea of, uh, a FBI
come up with
ideas and they're not gonna threaten the license or get you in legal trouble. A FBI if I can do it, it's a lot of 'em comes down to, I call it creative batting average. It's like in baseball, if a hitter hits 300, they're an all. That means out of every hundred at bats, it could strike out 70 times. But if they get 30 hits, they're stars. In radio. Everybody's bating, 0, 0, 0. Not even stepping up as a plate, they're in the dugout.
And, uh, thinking, oh yeah, I'm gonna really hit one outta here, walk out
to the plate and then go, nah. And then walk back
to the dark eye
But they talk a lot about it though. They talk a
lot about it. Yeah. gotta take swings. Radio
people talk a lot. They do.
I guess it's in their dna.
We are with the always amazing Lee Abrams. Hey, somebody you'd like to hear from. We'd love to hear your suggestions. Email 'em to [email protected].
And if you are finding this interesting or helpful, please spread the word. Tell your friends and. While you're at it, please leave a five star review wherever you get your podcast.
Coming up, Lee shares an opportunity that many, including Kimber and I mm-hmm. may find hiding in plain sight.
Hi, it's Gary Berkowitz, AC programming consultant at Berkowitz
Broadcast Consulting in Detroit. Hey, it's Molly Cruz. Brand manager for W M Y X N W X S S FM here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Hi, this is Jake Neman with 96 7 Cran. Hi, this is Dave Tyler from Music
Master, with even more
raving fans. Did someone say Music master? Raving Fan? Ding. Dang. That's me. Hey, it's Lee McNabb, operations manager for Saga Communications. Des Moines Radio Group ready to join these raving fans. Visit music master.com today. They're always there and willing to help. They save
me every time. I'm a major fan. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care. Too bad your radio Merk shop was there. Hey there. Kipper here with a great way for you, your station. Hey, even your show or podcast, to have a complete full merchandise store on your station website at Zero Charge. You just picked the items, send your. And Radio Swag Shop does the rest, sourcing, customizing, transacting, even delivering the items to your customers. As few as one at a time.
You just promoted, then sit back and count your new money. Sign up today for free. There's a link in the show notes, or go to radio swag shop.com/kipper. That's radio swag. Shop one word.com/kipper. My name K I P P E. Don't put it off any longer. Do it now. Fire up your merchandising savvy today. Visit radio swag shop.com/kipper. Opportunities hidden
in Blue Sign Plain Sight brand with on
demand. We're with one of the best and brightest in media, not just radio kids. Lee Abrams is here. Hey Lee. Thinking about traditional radio, what's the one opportunity that you. That most folks may find hiding in plain
sight. Yeah, I mean there's obviously a lot of things that, uh, can plug the holes, but if it's isolate one thing, it would be magic between the songs, meaning really amazing modern, non cliched production. Uh, that really takes you on a sonic journey. And I think it's the kind of thing where if you ask people, you know, in a focus group type environment, they wouldn't know what you're talking about, but you actually do it. And it just takes you, it takes the sound to a whole nother level.
And a lot of that is, you know, rethinking the voice. People you really need the big voice. I mean, that was cool 40 years ago, but uh, you know, the biggest voice in radio is Howard Sturman is a terrible voice. Um, and just that the sonics, you know, getting away from, uh, you know, star Wars sound effects lasers. Very cool. In 1976, when Star, whatever that was, when Star Wars came out.
That was, you know, that was almost 50 years ago and stations still used laser beans and uh, not in the box production, you know? Mm-hmm. that is so old and cliched. I mean, two for Tuesdays. Yeah. God, it's a parody of itself. Yeah. I would say really rethinking and pulling out what I call the George Martin Gene that's in everyone to elevate. and create magic again with, uh, what's under your control. And that's one of the big points about, um, big advantages of FM radio.
They probably get it people at the apples and they don't get it, you know, uh, even the stations, they do live or, uh, radio type stations have production and it's just cheesy circuit, 1978 production. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So something that really elevates the sound, brings back that theater of the mind. And I'm not talking about minute long stuff. It can be really quick, but really magical. And, um, even stereo effects, you know, they can be kind of cool.
And, um, special effects too are so easy these days. Uh, technologically it can be phasing, flanging and uh, uh, backwards sounds and it can be anything but really opening up the imagination. And a F D I. Really great production. Cause one of the reasons stations all sound the same is cause they're, they're all produced the same mm-hmm. and doing all the liners and doing all the, uh, the actual sonic productions.
I was actually, um, did a panel, uh, at the Canadian Music Week, which was about production. And uh, they had some of the top producers, uh, radio producers playing their. It was, they didn't like what I had to say cuz it was laugh you the
best music, rock and roll.
It was just like, oh God, it was so out, date. And um, meanwhile, uh, You know, sound on records and in movies is, you know, really expanding, getting cooler and more different, and radio's stuck in this 1978 Sonic blueprint, which just sounds
goofy today. Mm-hmm. So that would be a there one thing that
would probably,
what an amazing guy, Kipper. That's Lee Abrams, our guest today. We will find links to Lee's website, some fascinating blog posts, videos, and more. All in the show notes. Just scroll down on your,
As always, thanks to our exec producer Cindy Huber and our associate producer just proclaimed a 30 and Under Superstar by Radio Inc. Magazine, Hannah B. And coming up next, don't know if you've felt a strong urge to text your ex because Mercury's been a retro. So we just want to do a quick retrograde. He's like, what are you doing? Check in. Like has, uh, like we just wanna know for science, because I don't necessarily believe in it. I just feel like it's an excuse for a text message. I'm lastly
enough, not kidding, like 10 minutes ago, like my ex
is texting, texting me. I haven't,
I didn't reply yet, but that's so funny.
It's
so true because Elliot didn't believe, no. And he came in the other day and he is like, you're not gonna believe this. I just got a text from. I said, I'm really you. Mercury retrograde. They come back and they're just trying
to say,
what's up? Nighttime network
radio's. New answer. Elliot and
Nina from Westwood one. That's a wrap. Kipper.
Well, Lee has inspired a piece of writing. It's about doing things. You'll find it in show notes at Brand with on demand.com. I'm
Dave Martin.
And I'm Kipper McGee. May all your brand with be wide.