Uh, we're really in a, a period and, and we've been in a period for a long time where there hasn't been a great deal of innovation. That's not a winning strategy in an environment like the one we're in, struggling.
Welcome to BRANDwidth on Demand, your guide to rebooting radio.
We don't have to market anymore. Everybody knows who we are and what we do. Obviously that was a bad rationalization. But even things like bumper stickers, and you'll hear broadcasters to this day say nobody will put a bumper sticker on their car. But they're putting bumper stickers on laptops. I mean, people do want to display brands they love and brands they use.
BRANDwidth on Demand. Rebooting radio with a different take on all radio can be. Now, your guides through the media morphosis, David Martin, and author of the book, BRANDwidth, Media Branding Coach, Kipper McGee.
Fred Jacobs is a media visionary and the founder and president of Jacobs Media Strategies, a consulting firm that specializes in the radio industry. And also digital media. He's known as the creator of classic rock radio formats, which debuted in the early 80s in America and is now heard in hundreds of markets in the U. S. and also around the world. Fred's a frequent speaker at industry events and continues to write extensively about the radio industry and digital media.
If you're not reading his daily blog while you're missing out, we'll link to it in our show notes. He's a passionate advocate for radio and believes that it has a bright future, even in the face of digital disruption. He's also the co host of an annual CES tour. He started back in 2009 with his brother. And we highly recommend that by the way, it's coming up in 2024 too! BRANDwidth on Demand is proud to welcome back Fred Jacobs. Hey, Fred, Fred,
wow. What an ovation. Thank you guys. No, that was really a swell introduction. It's, uh, it's been a while since we've seen each other. You know, we're. We're running out of conferences to go to because they're disappearing, sadly. Yes, yes, sadly. Isn't that weird? I know. There used to be too many of them and now there aren't enough. I mean, how does that happen?
Hardly any. Well, first, congrats on 40 years of consulting. I mean, that's, that's a milestone too. Yeah, that kind of snuck up on us a little bit and actually linked in. Right. Yes. Congratulate Fred on his work anniversary. Uh, all of a sudden one day they started coming in and it's like, holy crap, it's 40 years. So yeah, it's, it's a really nice thing. Uh, you know, for, for me, the real big benefit is for. Forty years I haven't had to worry about what's next. That's for sure.
Right, which used to be the question that hounded the young Fred. Uh, back in his formative years, you know, yeah, this is great, but where am I going to be a year from now? You know, that I, I was that guy. So yes, we were all, I think, radio nomads to one extremer.
Right. I mean, what market am I going to be in a year from now? Right. And I sure don't want to be here. So yeah, so no, it's, it's, uh, I'm really blessed, you know, I have nothing, but gratitude as that milestone comes up. I did not think that would happen but it has, so it's, it's really nice.
So can you share with us like one particularly brilliant moment that you've witnessed during your client client run?
So, you know, going back to Dave's introduction, it was obviously for me, the classic rock format. I mean, I, I really wanted to not just be a typical consultant, I wanted to do stuff, or make things that might actually be unique. And the format turned out to be, exactly that. And it was not for a lack of... Hardship on the way up. It took me quite a while to get this thing sold and established. Nobody really knew who I was back at that time.
I did not have much of an industry profile and frankly, nobody really thought it was a really cool idea to devote an FM station to, a format that just played old stuff without currents, especially at a time when, you know, MTV was exploding. And the Hot Hits format was going crazy in radio, and here I am running around going, No, it's an all gold format and it's going to last. And I wasn't actually sure of that. So, uh, right? So, yeah, that was kind of the thing.
And, you know, guys, it ended up, uh, pitting me against some... Really incredible radio stations that I had nothing but respect for over the years. And, you know, suddenly here I am competing against KMET and The Loop and WMMS and KY 102 and all these stations. So it, it was really an exciting time for me, um, and it still continues to be, you know, the format.
It obviously has legs and has kind of morphed and evolved and done a few things that I might not have been able to predict, uh, 35 or so years ago, but yeah, it's, it's, it's been great. So yeah, for me, that's probably been the coolest thing I've been blessed to be a part of. Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, Fred, I mean, you've got a real streak of contrarian there that I think serve you and the industry well. Radio being, uh, what it is, a lot of naysayers recently, yet you remain very bullish on audio, including radio. So, to start on an upbeat note here, what do you see as today's biggest opportunities for stations and for individuals at the station level?
So, I still think as an industry we, we have upside, but it's not going to be achieved in the conventional ways. I mean, we are still... Sort of, for the most part, everywhere. I was at a conference a number of years ago that Paul moderated a panel with Tim Westergren, formerly the creator of Pandora. And Paul asked Tim if he actually ever listened to broadcast radio.
And Tim said, you know, I'm jealous of broadcast radio. You guys are a one button solution. You're easy to listen to and you're free. And that really stuck with me. I mean, here was one of radio's arch competitors and, and here he was kind of coming up with the, the rationale. So I, I do think radio has a lot of things going for it, but, uh, we're really in a period and, and we've been in a period for a long time, as you guys know, where there hasn't been a great deal of innovation.
in the radio broadcasting industry when it comes to formats or content creation. We've pretty much kind of been steady as, as she goes. And that, that's not a winning strategy in an environment like the one we're in. So, I mean, that's one of the reasons why we do the CES thing every year. I mean, we, we need that infusion of innovation and embracing new ideas. But I, I think there are formats to be created. I, I think there are audiences to reach that we have walled ourselves off from.
And so a regular theme in the blog these past few months has been suggesting that people maybe look at the industry a little differently, kind of turn things on their side, get out from under that 30 year. Uh, self enforced 25 to 54 year old demographic. And let's start thinking about going north of that or south of that. Cause there's a lot of audience there and there's money there if we go about it the right way.
So yes, I think there's upside, but we're not going to get there the way we're going now.
So Fred, what's your current read on podcasting, especially as it impacts radio stations and personalities.
So I've become somewhat bearish at at this point, and I'll tell you why. In terms of its impact on radio, there's no question that podcasting is erosive to broadcast radio. The more people get into podcasts, the more they move away from linear radio as.
Some people like to call this so there's that but the reason that I'm bearish really doesn't have anything to do with that I I look at the podcast landscape now and I see a marketplace that is totally Saturated with content that people seem to have trouble finding there are still murky technical details that flummox people Who are trying to get into podcasting.
I mean, every year in Tech Survey, we kind of come up with a fairly similar number, and it's in the 50 to 60 percent range of our overall radio audience, who either never listens to a podcast, or does so, so infrequently, that it's not really part of their audio, uh, habit. And I, I feel like, you know, this... This platform's been around a long time now, and it is still struggling to achieve QM. In a meaningful way.
I mean, we still see more people listening to podcasts this year than last year. But again, that 60 percent line for me is really a problem I think. And then there's the ROI piece, right? I mean, not all podcasts are created equal. There's a podcast like we're doing here. Where it's three guys sitting around overhead's not going to be completely absurd. So kudos to you guys for finding a way to do this that is cost effective.
But, as we know, some really great podcasts out there are like Game of Thrones, you know? They've got a cast of thousands, and it takes a long time to... Crank out an episode. And I don't think a whole lot of strategic thinking has up to this point gone into, can we afford to produce that podcast? Can we actually make back and even then some our investment? No research is being done in the field, really, to speak of.
I mean, we all come out of radio, right, where we've researched everything now for decades. Right? The music and the personalities and how, how long should this be? And do they like this benchmark over others? And yet you talk to a podcaster and you go, so what's working exactly for you? And they kind of go, well, uh, our downloads are up. And I'm like, wow, that's like saying our ratings are better. I mean, that doesn't really tell you a whole lot.
So I think for a lot of radio companies that aren't iHeart, there are much less expensive digital avenues to go down where you can actually create cool stuff and not have it cost an arm and a leg. And you can actually make money on, on these things and attract. New audience so we're headed down some of those paths I mean any broadcaster who says I've got a killer idea for a podcast.
I'll push them really hard to To really write that business plan for the podcast because I'm dubious After all these years and you know one more thing you take a look at you know WNYC in New York You know, which is really considered to be the biggest, maybe most successful. Uh, public radio station in the country. They've got their own podcasting wing. Empire. Right. Exactly. WNYC studios.
And a week or two ago, uh, you know, I'm dating your podcast, but a week or two ago, they laid off 14 percent of their staff, much of whom are part of the podcasting division. And they are sunsetting what appeared to be some popular podcasts. So, you know, I, I look at that and I think, wow, I mean, podcasting in this country kind of came out of public radio to a great degree. That's where some of the seminal podcasts and, and podcasting geniuses came out.
And here's WNYC struggling and NPR struggling. So that's a really long winded answer, Kipper, but I'm, I'm kind of thinking, you know, maybe don't try this at home if you don't really know what you're doing.
Good movie.
Good points, Sam. You recently presented, speaking of research, your AQ5 results at the Morning Show Boot Camp. Can you share some of the highlights, Fred, and what they mean for young people who are interested in a career in broadcasting, as well as info and tips for radio vets that want to remain relevant?
So, I think one of the key findings, Dave, is that when you ask veteran on air professionals if they had to do it all over again, what kind of company would they like to work for? They will tell you, to a great degree, not one of the bigger companies, one of the medium or smaller companies. And I think that really is a... Paradigm shift, right? Because the three of us got into radio when it was all about... I gotta get to Chicago, New York, or L. A. I mean, right?
If I don't work my way up through the small and medium and medium large and largest markets, I have not had a great career. And here we've got the majority of on air talent, including people working in big markets now for big companies kind of going, you know, if I had to do it all over again, I think I would scale down a bit. So I, I found that to be a, uh, a big finding this year. There's a lot of fear of AI. I, I had to include questions about that for obvious reasons.
I mean, we need to get the air talent side of this. We have every other side except the people who are to a great degree in fear of being replaced. So to me, that's one of the big takeaways here is. If you have a great brand, you can extend it, but do it the right way. It's way too easy to fail.
We can all learn something from the Hall of Famer, Fred Jacobs. That's for sure. Somebody you'd love to hear from. We'd love to hear your suggestions. Email us show at brand with on demand. com or reach out to us on social brand with plus on Insta, Facebook, and Twitter. Oh, that's X that's brand with P L U S brand with plus.
And Fred, along with the entire Jacobs have lots of great resources, all free to you, including Fred's AQ5 study and the webinar replay, his blog, and got so much more. Just tap the links in the show notes.
Coming up, Fred shares one thing that works so well, radio just stopped doing it.
Music Master, less stress, more yes. Hey, this is Dave Tyler. And maybe it's just me, but I love uptempo songs coming out of the legal ID at the top of the hour, as well as out of my stop sets, it's kind of like saying, all right, we're done with business. Let's get back to the party to do this. I use clock filters in these positions that only choose medium up or uptempo songs. Sounds great. Every time. And it's. Easy to set up.
If you have any questions, just shoot me an email at Dave at music, master. com. Music master music, scheduling the way it should be.
Hey there, Kipper here and ready or not, holidays are here. So one way you can help out your listeners and your bottom line is with radio swag shop. You just give them some cool holiday artwork, pick your items. They do the rest. They'll do the sales website. They handle the fulfillment, the transaction. All your station has to do is sit back and reap the holiday swag shop easy. Just follow the link in the show notes or go to radio swag shop.com and be sure to use the coupon code kipper.
That's Radio swag Shop. Coupon Kipper your listeners and your station's holiday budget. will thank you
stuff that worked so well, we stopped doing it friend with on demand
We're back with the hall of fame guy fred jacobs fred Would you share one thing that you believe has worked so well that radio just stopped doing it?
Yeah, we stopped marketing, David. I mean, that's, that's right, because it worked well, but, you know, I think this attitude kind of permeated during the early years of consolidation back in the 90s that we don't have to market anymore. Everybody knows who we are and what we do.
And obviously that was a bad rationalization, but even things like bumper stickers and you'll hear broadcasters to this day say, nobody will put a bumper sticker on their car, but they're putting bumper stickers on laptops. I mean, people do want to display brands they love and brands they use. So the stoppage of marketing. Uh, you know, to throw that money to the bottom line, as they say, I think radio really did a pretty good job.
Collectively as an industry, marketing his products in all kinds of interesting and unique ways, and sadly, that has come to a grinding halt. And I think not coincidentally, uh, the industry has certainly suffered. Over the years where marketing has been virtually non existent.
And interestingly, if our clients practiced what we preached, there'd be no income for the industry.
Yeah. Well, there's that point too. Um, but you know, one thing leads to another, right? I mean, you, you keep pulling the. Pick up sticks out of the structure and eventually the structure just collapses. I mean, you, you can't keep throwing money to the bottom line and cutting, cutting, cutting. You're not gonna have a whole lot left, so. Mm hmm. Uh huh.
Our thanks to Hall of Famer Fred Jacobs. We have links to Fred's blog, tons of research, and more all in the show notes. Just scroll down on your phone.
As always, special thanks to our exec producer Cindy Huber who put this all together, and to Hannah B, our associate producer for booking. Speaking of which coming up next,
hi, it's Corey Dylan from 100. 7 Big FM at Local Media, San Diego. And we're coming up next. Hope you'll stick around to hear the best pieces of advice. Yes, three different pieces of advice that I got one from a mentor in radio. One from George Clooney, not personally, I wish. And the third from actor Brian Cranston. Stick around.
That's a wrap, Kipper. Never stop learning. We're gonna talk about learning in One-Minute Martinizing. Find it in the show notes at BRANDwidthondemand.com. I'm Dave Martin.
And I'm Kipper McGee. May all your BRANDwidth be wide.