BW205 - Larry Rosin – Edison Research
Larry Rosin: [00:00:00] The biggest change that we've seen over time is the endless rise of digital, the endless rise of the use of the phone as the primary way that younger people in particular access audio and video. Just can't ignore that for younger people in particular, the standard functionality of a radio is just more and more foreign to them.
VO: BRANDwidth on Demand. Rebooting radio with a different take on all radio can be.
Larry Rosin: When you look at all these things in Share of the Era, to me the most compelling one is the reach. And that reach is above 50 percent even among, say, 13 to 34 year olds. So even younger people still listen in shockingly huge numbers. So that's a huge story.
VO: Now your guides through the Mediamorphosis. David Martin and author of the book BRANDwidth, Media Branding Coach Kipper McGee.
David Martin: Well this time we're thrilled to introduce you to Larry Rosin, president and co founder of Edison Research. Larry's [00:01:00] a pioneer in media and consumer research, over 30 years of experience in understanding audience behavior.
David Martin: Now under his leadership, Edison Research has produced influential studies, including the Infinite Dial and the Share of Ear. They provide invaluable insights into radio, podcasting, digital media trends, just audio overall. Larry's expertise is shaping the industry. Making him a sought after speaker. He's one of our leading thought leaders.
David Martin: BRANDwidth on Demand is proud to welcome one of the industry's most respected figures, Larry Rosin. Hey, Larry.
Larry Rosin: Thank you for that kind introduction.
Kipper McGee: Oh, we are so, so glad to have you. Thanks for making time. So, with the continued growth of all of the various platforms, I guess the big question is, where do you see radio fitting in and what does that mean for traditional radio stations or groups who may have dipped a toe into digital but haven't quite [00:02:00] made the plunge yet?
Larry Rosin: Well, we've been doing this for a long time and we've been tracking trends across radio and all forms of audio for, Well, over 25 years with our Infinite Dial Study and taking a very detailed look at Share of Ear for a decade. And I always tell the story about, one of the things when you're older, like me, and you've worked in the radio world for a long time, you sort of always trained with this idea that nothing is easier to listen to than radio radio is the easiest thing, and certainly in the car for, whatever station you had on when you turn the car off is there when you turn it on, et cetera.
Larry Rosin: And, we were doing focus groups with young people and talking about why they should listen to the radio. And invariably they'll say, well, it's hard.
Kipper McGee: Wow.
Larry Rosin: And I'm like, what do you mean it's hard? And they said, well, you know, you've got to know a number and the number and how it associates with the radio station that you know, have to know how to tune to that and I get to that number was with your phone. You just tap and you go. And to me, that was a real sort of a [00:03:00] lightning bolt moment to realize that for young people who've been raised entirely on their phones, it's just much easier to get to things on their phone than on a traditional radio. And truth be told, I've gotten into rental cars where I've struggled mightily to figure out how to change the radio station or even turn on the radio in certain cases. And so with regard to your question about, groups that dip their toe, if you've only dipped your toe at this point, you are way too late.
Larry Rosin: And you really need to jump into the pool completely. You have to understand that less and less listening is happening and going to happen on a traditional radio receiver. I say it all the time and no one is loyal to frequency modulation. They like the content, right? They like the personalities, the music, the information, the companionship, all they get from radio, but it's not because it's frequency modulated because it's on FM, they [00:04:00] listen, it's the content that they care about. So you've got to be wherever they're listening and don't think anyone's loyal just because the frequency is being modulated in some fashion.
David Martin: What kind of big trends have you seen? I mean, if you back up, Larry, and take a look, longitudinally, since the beginning of these landmark studies, what jumps out at you?
Larry Rosin: Well, if you go back, so we did Infinite Dial, we started in 1998. And, we're asking questions like, And we still ask, you know, do you have internet in your home?
Larry Rosin: And, only like a quarter of people did in 1998. Your broadband would just was being introduced at that point. And that was a big deal when that came out. And I do remember in that first study in 1998, have you ever listened to radio over the internet? And we were surprised it was 6 percent of all Americans said, yes.
Larry Rosin: Surprised to the high side. We didn't, we think the number would be quite so high. And, over the now 26 years, since we started doing that study, obviously [00:05:00] virtually everyone, not everyone, but virtually everyone has internet in their home. Virtually everyone has smartphone at this point, well past 90 percent of everyone, 13 and older, 12 and older in that case.
Larry Rosin: And, so, um, the changes all come through those technologies. Again, when we, if we had Share of Ear in 1990, we would have asked about maybe three or four things, right? You could listen to the radio, you could listen to CDs or cassettes or vinyl to recorded music in that fashion. And the really, Wasn't much else that you could possibly use to listen. And now there's such an explosion in other ways that people can access audio content, the phone being the most important one, but obviously through your computer, through a smart speaker, through your television, which is a rapidly growing pathway especially for younger people.
Larry Rosin: And there's so many more kinds of things. Podcasting of course has come along. The streamers, the ability to listen on [00:06:00] demand to anything you might want at any given time. So it's been an unbelievably dynamic time. And that's what I always tell my radio friends is you just can't ignore that.
Larry Rosin: You just can't pretend that we're still in 1990 when people had so few options, they have lots and lots of options and you've got to make sure they pick yours.
Kipper McGee: Yeah. And you mentioned options and how they get it as well. The various platforms. What are you seeing in trends in terms of what they're listening on? If it's not a radio, is it an app stream computer? headphones?
Larry Rosin: Right... so per our estimates, the overwhelming majority of radio is still listen to on our radio. So our estimate is something like 87 or 88 percent of the time spent listening to radios being listened to on our radio and about 12 or 13 percent is being listened to via streams on different kinds.
Larry Rosin: Once you get into the world of streaming the phone is far and away, the biggest source of that listening, [00:07:00] the smart speaker came along and cause all kinds of excitement for the radio industry, but really for everyone that seems to the excitement is definitely tapered off. And the growth has tapered off dramatically.
Larry Rosin: The people who have them like them, the people who have them use them, but it hasn't a deep ubiquity, the way that the phone obviously has. And then with regard to radio content, some is still on the computer. The people are listening through, speakers on their computer or something like that. And then very small amounts through the television where people can access apps through their TV or websites or their TV. It's really the phone is the primary pathway, but radio has not done a good job on many levels of being competitive on digital devices. They've, made it challenging in lots of ways.
Larry Rosin: I think from the corporate standpoint, these big aggregated apps like the IHeart app or the Audacy app have made sense for them [00:08:00] in various ways, but they don't necessarily make it easy to get to your particular radio station that you might want to listen to. It's a lot of apps, a lot of clicks to get there as opposed to a single one on top of which still it's unbelievable that we're still talking about how poor the streams often are, how poorly integrated between the over the air and stream and how it goes back and forth, et cetera.
Larry Rosin: And we're still talking about that. And then on top of which, in the digital realm. A radio station that has, 14 to 18 minutes of commercials per hour, often really, really struggles when people have products like Pandora and Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, et cetera, as other options often with far fewer, or if you pay no commercials.
David Martin: And Larry, does the car or vehicles still an area where radio captures a lion's share?
Larry Rosin: It very much does. Radio remains the real bastion of radio listening. It's declining there as well as people [00:09:00] have more options, but it's still very, very powerful in the car that a huge percentage of radius reach comes in the car every day.
Larry Rosin: And, a large number of the quarter hours to radio come in the car. And people forget that, with the exception of very few people, most people, most will spend an hour a day in their car. So there's only so much time spent that you can get in the car, but you can get tons and tons of reach.
Larry Rosin: And yes, radio remains really competitive in the car, and the radio should be. deeply, I don't know if paranoid is the right word, but very, very careful about making sure that it remains in the car. If that's important to them. I mean, I understand some of these, regulatory efforts and other things, but, the best thing, in my opinion, to, be listened to in the car is to have content so compelling that people will find it no matter what.
Larry Rosin: And obviously yes, pursue all legal stuff like this, AM in every car act [00:10:00] and that kind of stuff. But if more people were listening or more people, we're calling their congressman saying do something about it because they love the content so much that's the best way to get listening in the car.
David Martin: Uh-hmmm
Kipper McGee: Uh-huh
Larry Rosin: And I don't think the only reason that people listen to the radio in the car is because it's easy, even though that's true for most people. In most cases, I think there is something about the car and radio that just goes together the way macaroni and cheese just go together or peanut butter and jelly just go together.
Larry Rosin: I think there's a lifetime of habituation. Yes, there's the ease of it. But I do think in different environments, in different times in people's day, some things just sound better and sound more suited. And I think in the car, there's a reason people listen to radio beyond just ease and habituation. There's certain times in your day where you want to be more laid back, lean back, as they say, and [00:11:00] just listen. James Cridland, who maybe you've had on the show before, the English commentator about radio, who now lives in Australia the talks about, A lot. I think very compellingly about how listening on earbuds or listening with headphones just is kind of different from listening over speakers and radio. It's better in the speaker environment than necessarily it does in the headphone environment, whereas probably a podcast is the opposite. Podcasts maybe our podcast better on earbuds or headphones and less fitting with a speaker based environment. And I think it's a really interesting point. So I do think it's not just people listen to the radio because they've always listened to the radio in the car. I think people listen to the radio, the car for those reasons, but also it just fits, it just fits with the car environment.
David Martin: The head honcho of Edison Research, Larry Rosin, someone you'd like to hear us interview. Well, a topic we should cover. Let us know. Email your suggestions to show at BRANDwidth on Demand dot com or [00:12:00] reach us on social BRANDwidth plus on Insta, Facebook and X. That's BRANDwidth plus. P L U S BRANDwidth plus,
Kipper McGee: And if you're new to our podcast, we want to say welcome and ask you to hit the follow button wherever you're getting this.
Kipper McGee: And if you've been with us for a while, please tell a friend BRANDwidth on Demand. Our goal is to assist you in mastering your audio craft.
David Martin: Coming up, Larry shares opportunities. They may be hiding in plain sight.
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VO: Opportunities Hidden in Plain Sight. BRANDwidth on Demand
David Martin: We are with Larry Rosin from Edison Research. Larry, What opportunity do you see that lies ahead that we're not exploiting right now in terms of radio?
Larry Rosin: Well, i'm a big believer in [00:14:00] All the stuff radio says about itself typically, but doesn't do enough of. I do believe in local profoundly. I do think that radio does itself a terrible disservice when it doesn't have someone alive at the radio station, able to react to things. It was on a Sunday, Biden announced he was not going to continue running for president. If you weren't there to, Bring that news to people. That's such a missed opportunity. It's funny how much news seems to happen on weekends. It was only exactly seven days before that when Trump got shot. These are all opportunities for radio to say, we're there. There's someone who's by your side and bringing you information. To me, if I ran a radio station, if I had someone live, I would tell him or her to cut in, in the middle of a song, if they're playing a song and saying, Hey.
Larry Rosin: I have breaking news and show that you are there. And of course those are big national stories, but every day there are big local stories that [00:15:00] people might want to know. There's been a terrible accident on the freeway, and you might need to detour around it or whatever it might be, We talk about live and local and so many stations just don't deliver on live and local, and I think that's just such a missed opportunity.
Larry Rosin: It's so much a part of what we do. that sort of romantic vision of radio and I understand all the cost challenges that radio station has, but at some point you're selling your blood plasma to pay for your medical bills and at some point it just doesn't pay off.
Kipper McGee: Yeah.
David Martin: All this great research you've done, what's the most exciting stuff about radio that you can talk about today?
Larry Rosin: Well, you know, we look at all these things in Share of Ear and there's lots of positive stories that radio can tell. From our Share of Ear data. To me, the most compelling one is the reach. I think our most recent estimate is something like 62% of all Americans age 13 and older listen to the [00:16:00] radio on a daily basis from Share of Ear.
Larry Rosin: So we do this diary study. We ask people to keep a very detailed one day audio usage diary, and nearly two in every three. And again, this is age 13 and older will write at least some radio listening into their diary. And so radio has such a compelling reach story. I know they also get that story through Nielsen data, but , to have multiple studies validating that, and there's really nowhere else advertisers can go to achieve so much reach.
Larry Rosin: So to me, that's the single most powerful story. And that reaches above 50 percent even among, say, 13 to 34 year olds. So even younger people they still, they might listen to less radio than previous people did, but they still listening in shockingly, huge numbers. So that's a huge story. I think in share of your that we're able to do is to look at ad supported media versus media like we were talking about earlier with satellite radio that people pay on the music channels.
Larry Rosin: They don't have commercials. [00:17:00] And when you just look at the kind of audio. That is ad supported radio share is kind of overwhelming within that realm. Yes, Spotify's free service has listeners. Pandora is mostly free service and delivers listeners. The talk stations on Sirius XM sell ads, etc.
Larry Rosin: But when you just isolate that world. And podcasts, obviously people can advertise on to radio is a huge, huge percentage of that kind of listening. So, you know, it has such a powerful rich story. It has such a huge share of ad supported audio even down to younger demographics. There's all kinds of positive stories that radio can tell from our data, and our clients often do tell those stories.
Larry Rosin: So, I think it can be easy to forget about radio strengths. I know it's tough out there, but advertisers shouldn't forget about radio, and radio should continue to thump its chest a bit and be proud of what it delivers to so many tens and tens of millions of [00:18:00] Americans every single day.
David Martin: The co -founder of Edison Research, Larry Rosin, what a great guy.
David Martin: Links to all the Edison studies and more in the show notes. Just scroll down on your phone.
Kipper McGee: As always, our thanks to executive producer Cindy Huber. She gets all of this stuff together. And our associate producer, Hannah B., handles booking. And coming up next
Next Guest: Jimmy Failla: Hi, this is Jimmy Failla, host of Fox Across America and Fox News Saturday Night with Jimmy Failla. Look at me. On the next BRANDwidth on Demand, yes, you will hear me, and I'm worth hearing, because I went from community college, where I majored in Nintendo, to driving a New York City cab, where I majored in dodging gunfire and time travelers, to hosting two shows on the biggest media platform in America, the point I'm making is few have accomplished more with less, and I'll deal you in on some of my secrets on the next BRANDwidth on Demand.
David Martin: That's a wrap, Kipper. What's happening this weekend in your town? We'll [00:19:00] discuss that in the One Minute Martinizing. Find it in the show notes at BRANDwidthonDemand.Com. I'm Dave Martin
Kipper McGee: and I'm Kipper McGee. May all your BRANDwidth be WIDE!.