Susan Friedmann:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the masters. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Benjamin Dennehy. Benjamin is known globally as The UK's most hated sales trainer because he holds up the ugly mirror to failing sales folks and lets them look at the problem. He's tough, unafraid to give blunt feedback. You don't hire him for comfort or friendship, you hire him for results. His goal is simple: to help you earn more by taking control, doing less, but doing it intentionally better. All the way from The UK, Benjamin, it's a pleasure to welcome you to the show, and thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Thank you very much, Susan, for having me. It's a real honor to be here. I'm genuinely thrilled and excited to be talking to you and your audience, so thank you.
Susan Friedmann:
Well, I'm thrilled to have you, and I'll tell you for why, Benjamin. And it's because what happens when authors come to me to publish their books, we talk about sales, we talk about marketing, and just first of all, they don't understand the difference necessarily. But the main thing is the word sales sort of conjures up this vision of the sleazy, cheesy, sort of used car salesman image, and they're like, I don't wanna be like that. Let's talk about this mindset first, and then let's sort of dig deeper into how our authors can do a better job of selling their books and themselves. Okay.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Let's do that then. Let's go.
Susan Friedmann:
Talk to us about the mindset, that sales and marketing mindset, that promotional mindset. What should we know?
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yeah. The problem most salespeople have or people that have to go into sales is you're right. We were always programmed not to trust salespeople. And one of the things I teach is I always say it's your mother's fault you can't sell. Because if you look at the programming you were given as a child, it carries over into your adulthood. For instance, I guarantee that every one of your listeners was taught never talk to strangers as a kid. Right? You were probably taught that, weren't you, Susan? Don't
Susan Friedmann:
talk to strangers.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Did anyone tell you growing up that that rule did not apply as an adult?
Susan Friedmann:
I wish it was.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yeah. No one tells you that. Also, the other one is think about this. From the moment you were born, you were programmed that you had to answer a question. You weren't born answering questions. It's a programming. Growing up, your parents would be pointing at pictures and books going, what's that? What's that? What's this? And if you got the answer wrong, they would maybe ask you to try again, try again, and you keep going until you got it right. And if you got it right, you got praise.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yay. Look at you. So what you developed was your whole life, if someone older and authority asked you a question, you had to answer. That carries through into adulthood. So then you meet a stranger who says, well, why should I buy your book? And instantly, you feel you've got to answer them. So there's a lot of stuff that you're taught as a child that gives you a terrible view of imagine don't talk to strangers and then you're told to pick up a phone and prospect. What do you think goes through the mind of the average person when they're trying to make a telephone call to sell themselves in? What's going through their mind, do you think?
Susan Friedmann:
Well, they freeze. I mean, just even the thought of picking up and phone and talking to a stranger, it's just so uncomfortable. I mean, even if you meet them, let's say, at a networking event or any time that you meet somebody, whether it's online, on the phone, on Zoom, whatever, It scares them.
Benjamin Dennehy:
It does. And also picking up the phone. What was another rule you were taught us again? It's rude to what? It's rude to interrupt. Yeah.
Susan Friedmann:
You don't interrupt. Well, especially the Brits. Okay. Now come on. We're looking at cultural
Benjamin Dennehy:
differences here. Cultural. Yeah. Maybe in America, it's different. But, certainly but most people are taught it's rude to interrupt, never talk to strangers, and always answer a question when asked. Those are three terrible things to make you bad at selling. One of the things I have to teach people is you gotta let go of all the baggage that you've got. Yeah.
Benjamin Dennehy:
You are allowed to talk to strangers. You don't have to answer a question, and you can interrupt anybody you like. Once you start thinking differently, you start behaving differently. And it may seem a bit weird talking in the context we are, but it's incredibly powerful changing just those simple rules.
Susan Friedmann:
Another aspect too is the imposter syndrome. Because with a book, you're sharing something that's very personal. Authors often think, well, it's the book that they're selling versus the value that that book will bring to the potential buyer.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yes. I've never sold books per se, but I can understand the principles would be very similar to anything else. And you gotta ask yourself, if I'm selling something, what is this the word fix may be the wrong word to use, but what is this book fix for someone? What is this going to give them? What is this going to fill inside them that's missing? How do I sell them on what it's going to do for them as opposed to why they should buy from me? It's a similar concept. People buy emotionally and justify intellectually. So what are the emotional hooks that I could say to someone that will make them realize maybe this book is something I should look into. Maybe this is something I could consider. It's a fascinating concept.
Susan Friedmann:
It really is. And let's talk about distractions. What's, let's say, a biggest distraction an author needs to, let's say, eliminate to be able to sell more books? What's standing in the way other than themselves?
Benjamin Dennehy:
Okay. So this is an interesting one. I would say, and it's the same for most people in sales, the biggest challenge most people have is their emotion attached to the outcome. Now, obviously, as an author, you've put a lot of emotion into probably something that you've written. It's like your baby. And the problem is is when you're out trying to sell something like this, you're very attached to the outcome. You're wanting the outcome probably more. And One of the things I have to teach people is you gotta get out of the outcome and into the process.
Benjamin Dennehy:
This is why we hire a lawyer. Because at the end of the day, whether or not they win or lose the trial, if you're guilty, they don't care. And if they do win, kudos to me. I get the victory for winning even though I probably shouldn't have because you're a horrible human being. But either way, I'm emotionally not attached. When you're out selling something, you need to try and detach yourself from wanting an outcome, and that's easier said than done. It's how can I get there as opposed to will I get there? And that detachment is important in sales. It's the number one thing that if you can master will make your selling life easier.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Don't be attached to the outcome of what you're trying to do, which, again, I think for authors, it's probably gonna be particularly more challenging than most people.
Susan Friedmann:
Yeah. Because it's so personal.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Because it's so personal.
Susan Friedmann:
You said earlier, it's your baby. It absolutely is your baby. Yes. And you treasure this, but yet at the same time, they often want somebody else to sell it for them, which then is almost like giving your child to an orphanage and say, hey. You you help that person grow up. Yes.
Benjamin Dennehy:
And this is a problem when it is your baby. To you, it is the most beautiful, special, wonderful thing in the world. To everybody else, it's just another bloody baby. Once you've seen, what you've seen them all sort of thing. Right? So that attachment that you have to how wonderful this is, unfortunately, isn't often shared by those you're trying to sell to. So you've gotta hook them in a different way, and it certainly isn't from why they should buy in your opinion sort of thing.
Susan Friedmann:
Yeah. It's basically into that what's in it for me.
Benjamin Dennehy:
What's in it? Exactly. Everyone is driven by selfish self interest. People don't Some people buy things out of charitable state, but most people buy charity because it makes them feel good. And they're not doing this altruistically. It's I like helping charity because I like helping myself feel good. How do you get someone to buy your book? Sell it to them, not in what's in it, but what it's gonna do for them. What are they gonna take from it? What's in it for them?
Susan Friedmann:
You mentioned the word process. Let's go down that route and look at what is a simple process that our authors can think about. Once they've listened to this wonderful episode, what's the process that would be helpful for them?
Benjamin Dennehy:
You've kinda got me there because selling a book, I could imagine, is quite challenging. Are you selling direct? Let me ask you a question. Are you selling to publishers here? Are we selling it to talk about it at an event? Is there a specific scenario we're referring to?
Susan Friedmann:
It could be many different scenarios, but let's look at it from a networking standpoint. They go to a networking meeting, and they want to let people know about their book.
Benjamin Dennehy:
This is a little tip that I give people whenever you're networking. If you go to any networking event, what's normally the first question that somebody asks you when they meet you for the first time? It's usually, so what do you do? Mhmm. Now the real reason they ask that question isn't because they're interested in you. It's because they wanna talk about themselves. But the social rule dictates that we have to ask, so what do you do to be polite? One of the things I teach people to do, and this probably would work well for authors is because you wanna start plugging your book or getting people to want to be interested in your book, would be I always flick it back. Whenever someone asks me, what do I do? I say, oh, look. You wouldn't be interested. It's it's not that interesting.
Benjamin Dennehy:
So what do you do? Getting them to talk about themselves. Now as you say, listening to someone speak enables me to start figuring out how might I be able to position myself listening to what this person's saying? How can I use what they're saying about their job and their life and their world? How can I tie that in maybe to the themes or the challenges that are perhaps generated in my book so that when the conversation comes back to me, you know, you know, it's funny? You say this and you say that and you say that. Recently, I've written, and you could start to discuss how you have perhaps in some way sort of engaged in what they've said if what I'm saying is making sense because it's challenging to get a part. Does that make sense, or am I
Susan Friedmann:
It does. I lost it. It does. Because going back to this whole idea of what's in it for them, and as you say rightly, that they really want to talk about themselves.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yes.
Susan Friedmann:
They're sort of superficially interested in who you are and what you do, unless, of course, you can be of real value to them. But at the end of the day, it's getting that other person to talk and find out what they're interested in and, potentially, how your book might tie into that.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Align with them. Yes. And that is hard to do because you go to a networking event, and you're there to talk about yourself. But you could stand up. And when you introduce yourself, rather than, oh, hello. My name is Benjamin, and I'm an author. And I've recently written a book on x, y, and zed. In this book, we explore blah blah blah blah blah.
Benjamin Dennehy:
I would stand up and say, hi. My name is Benjamin. None of you have probably heard of me, but, I'm an author. However, I write books, and those books typically help people do x. Some of them help them explore y, and a few of them help them understand b. But I get the feeling that a lot of people in here probably don't recognize any of these sorts of things. And, obviously, depending on what you write about in the networking event you're at, the odds are they should because you're picking networking events where people are gonna be likely to recognize the sort of content that you write about. I'm assuming someone who sells, I don't know, writes textbooks isn't exactly gonna be going to the creative writers networking a bit.
Benjamin Dennehy:
I don't maybe. I don't know. I don't know even about book networking. But yeah.
Susan Friedmann:
And it's taking those same sales techniques
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yes.
Susan Friedmann:
And adapting them to it's me rather than having a Salesforce. Or Yeah. Oh, exactly. You're training. You're going and teaching somebody how to sell. Yes. Take us through that.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Okay. So let's some fundamental home truths. This is going to be it for authors. Authors wanna be authors. Authors want to write stuff, and they want to get the accolade and the praise that comes with writing great content. They don't wanna sell it, though. No one wants it. And in fact, nobody if you ask, I've done this.
Benjamin Dennehy:
I've stood up in front of rooms of 250, three hundred entrepreneurs. I said, pull up your hand if when you were at school, you wanted to be in sales. Maybe one, two hands here. Virtually, nobody wants to be in sales. It is a default setting. It's not something you chose to do. It's just something you find yourself in. The number one reason I have to help most salespeople get over is the fact that deep down, they don't wanna be there.
Benjamin Dennehy:
You have to realize that selling is a noble profession when done well. Selling is about getting to the truth. Selling is about me trying to understand the prospect to see if I could fit what I have with what they need. And if I can't, I won't sell it to them. And if I can, I will sell it to them? And that done properly is through great listening and great question asking. In fact, those are two qualities I would expect that most authors have because I would have thought to be a great author, you gotta be a good listener because you're trying to absorb the real world. And you must ask some pretty good questions so that you get subject matter. Listening to people and asking questions, that's one of the things I have to focus on intently is getting to accept you are in sales.
Benjamin Dennehy:
There's nothing wrong with being in sales. There's nothing dirty about it. And getting them to appreciate that, and then it's giving them a series of techniques like never answering a question, which most people find the most challenging thing in the world. If you're asked a question, answer with a question.
Susan Friedmann:
That's my husband's rule of thumb. It's like you ask him a question, and then he'll ask you a question as an answer to that question.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yes. And the reason we do that is is 99% of the time, the first question anyone asks you is never the real question. If somebody says to you, what sort of books do you write, you could start to waffle on about what you write. But what would be better is you get that's something you know, you know, most people never ask me that. Can I ask you a question? Just looking at me, can you guess what sort of books I write? Now this will be interesting because now I'm gonna get an insight into how they're seeing me. You see? This is gonna help me. And as you said before we came on this podcast, you said that your questions will be based on that I say, and that's how the conversation will flow. That's how a conversation should be in sales.
Benjamin Dennehy:
I'm not there with a prepanned series of answers I'm gonna give to a prospect when they ask me. I'm actually going in thinking all I'm gonna do is listen and ask this person questions, and no matter what they throw at me. So how many books have you published? If I was to say this is my first, what would you say? You see, that's even a question even though you've given the answer.
Susan Friedmann:
Yeah. How do you prepare for that? Because, again, there's this default of when they're not prepared or they don't know how to go about this, it's like, oh, I've just finished writing a book. Wouldn't you like a copy?
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yes. How do you unlearn answering questions? The simple thing is you just gotta do it everywhere. And I know that seems crazy, but for instance, if you go into a supermarket nowadays and you're standing at the checkout and you got your groceries on the conveyor belt and you got nothing in your hands, the first question you'll probably get asked is, do you need a bag? Right? Simple little technique is this. Whenever I get asked that question, I just look up the conveyor belt and go, do you think I need one? It's a question. The person always responds. I go, yeah. You probably do. I go, how many do you think? And they say two.
Benjamin Dennehy:
And I go, do you mind if I have three? So I've done three questions in a row off of a very simple premise. When you get good at doing it in these silly little scenarios, your brain slowly starts to learn how to do it everywhere. And regardless of the situation so what is it that you do? What if I told you I was an author? What would you say? Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah. What sort of books do you write about? Ah, it's funny you should ask. And then I can go on with another good so my job is to do that, to tease out information from the person I'm talking to to see how I could use it to enable them to discover they need my book.
Susan Friedmann:
Yeah. And I think that's the crux of it is that listening that I find so often that people really are not listening because whatever's going on in their own head, maybe it's thinking about what the next question is that they want to or what statement they want to give to this person that they're interacting
Benjamin Dennehy:
with. It would be. And what I find interesting, because, again, this is new to me, is what sort of questions would authors get asked that they would feel obligated to answer? Can you think of any a question that they feel they have to give an if someone asks them, they'd have to give them an answer. Can you is there anything that springs
Susan Friedmann:
to mind? I think exactly what you'd said earlier is, oh, tell me about your book or what do you write about? Ah. Yeah. That's poignant.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Go back with a question then next time someone says, so what sort of things do you write? I know it seems weird, but you can say, you know, not a lot of people ask me that. I mean, I'll be happy to answer, but do you mind what sort of books do you like reading before I answer that? So then you can get an insight. If your book's about what they like, that's gonna be better for you. Right? People feel but they've asked me a question I must answer. That's your mom. Stop taking your mom to networking events. Stop taking your mom to work.
Susan Friedmann:
It's so funny how, yes, those rules that are impregnated at an early age, and it is so hard to get rid of them sometimes.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Very hard. You can never they're tapes. You can never delete them, but you can turn them off. Right? And so you gotta learn to turn them off. This is what I tell all my clients to do. I go after the first session. I want you to when you go home tonight, I want you to phone up your mom and dad and say, look, mom, dad, I love you. But for the love of god, please stop coming to work with me.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Yeah? Let go. What you were taught as a kid no longer applies as an adult.
Susan Friedmann:
I love what you said earlier about the detachment from the outcome. Talk to us more about that.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Most salespeople love their product or their service. A lot of entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, people that work for themselves. You create something and you're passionate about it. You go out and you try and sell it, and you go out and you try and present it in the best light, and you put your heart and soul into it. And you meet people and they say, look. I love it. I think it's great, but I'm not interested. It hurts.
Benjamin Dennehy:
You get rejection. You're trying to call call yourself into things, and people say, no. I'm not interested. And the reason is is because all you're doing is phoning up and talking about you and what you write about and what you do. But when someone rejects you, they are literally rejecting you. Whereas what I have to teach people to do is don't talk about what you do. Talk about the sorts of things that you fix. In an awful scenario, I'm not sure what they would quite be yet, but it would be easy to try and figure out.
Benjamin Dennehy:
You need to talk about what you fix. So I don't sell sales training. I can't phone up someone's arm of sales trainers. I'm not interested. So I don't talk about sales training. I talk about what I fix. I guess, well, I don't suppose you're a struggling author who's frustrated that they can't get in front of enough people to sell books, are you? Now if I was phoning authors, I might get a few say, yeah. I can relate to that.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Well, that's what I fix. I don't put up I'm a sales trainer who works with authors. Very different. By doing that, I detach myself from the outcome. Because if you reject what I fix, you're not rejecting me. You're just rejecting the problems I deal with. I can't take that personally. And at the end of the day, this is slightly different for authors, but for most people in sales, the person needs what you have.
Benjamin Dennehy:
You don't need them. No. That seems weird, but I have a solution. You have the problem, which means I'm in control. That is a mindset thing, and I'm sure it equally applies to books. If your book is as brilliant as you believe it is, then your prospects need it. So you need to get them to discover they need it. And once they discover they need it, then they'll have it.
Susan Friedmann:
One of the elements or characteristics that often come out is the passion for your book. Yes. And if you convey that passion, I often feel that that's part of the sales process. What are your thoughts on that?
Benjamin Dennehy:
There's a time and a place for passion, and it has to be in the right place when it comes to selling. There's a very simple rule. People bar emotionally and justify intellectually. Most people miss it. They bar emotionally and justify intellectually. You could give the most impassioned speech and people could emotionally get it, but intellectually, I still don't care. We need to sell to both. What I would say with authors is, yes, you need to have the passion.
Benjamin Dennehy:
But I would try to take that passion and convert it into questions that will get your audience drawn into you. Our job is to get people to discover they need what we have. Credibility comes from great questions. I can imagine it being an author, how many questions you could ask that could get people to realize they need to read your book if you've mastered your subject and your topic. Take that passion. And rather than using it to pull people towards you, use it to ask some questions that draw them to you. And that could be equally as powerful, but it's knowing the questions to ask. How do you get someone interested in your book through questions?
Susan Friedmann:
I love that. And that's a wonderful segue, Benjamin, into you telling us about how our listeners can find out more about you and what you do so brilliantly.
Benjamin Dennehy:
I must admit, authors, if you wanna find me as you know, I'm known as The UK's most hated sales trainer. So it's not hard to find if you Google that, I can rest assured. I do have a YouTube channel. I'm also on LinkedIn. Those are the two primary places you'll find. Even Instagram, I kind of dabble in. And if you wanna find me, reach out to me. And what I do is is I help people learn the techniques, learn the behaviors and the mindset that's gonna make them successful in sales.
Benjamin Dennehy:
But it takes a lot. It's very hard to get good at selling because it let's be brutally honest. Most people listening to this don't want to be in sales. You just want people to buy your books. You wanna be an order taker. Everyone wants to be an order taker because that means life's easy. If you really wanna learn to sell, you're gonna have to step out of your comfort zone and realize I have to go out. I have to put myself out there.
Benjamin Dennehy:
That's what I show people how to do. Most people don't wanna do it. It's tough. It's uncomfortable. It's gotta be a lot easier than writing a book, though. I can guarantee that I'm too lazy. Everyone tells me I should write a book, and I just I don't know how you guys do it. What I teach, it's gotta be easier than learning to write a book.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Maybe someone can show me how to write a book, and I can show them how to sell it. That could be fun.
Susan Friedmann:
That's a great combo. That's a really great combo. And I will put links to, especially, your LinkedIn, Instagram, and, of course, your website because I know that's full of some great information as well. And I believe you have a maybe a lead magnet that you talked about.
Benjamin Dennehy:
I have an offer. I and and I'm just thinking, authors may like it. It's not focused for authors, but I have two crash courses. One is "Why Your Prospecting Fails, 10 Reasons Why Your Prospecting Fails," and the other is “How To Bulldoze Your Way Through Objections.”
Now these are more for people designed in the classic sense, but the fundamentals are the same. But, normally, I charge for these, but your listeners, they can have it for free. They just have to use the code book mentors, and we can put more information on a user. And that'll get them access to these courses for free just especially for your listeners.
Benjamin Dennehy:
And I think if they start to say, well, how can I apply this in the world of authorship and book sales? I believe they'll be able to get as much value from it as my sort of typical customer. Yeah. So that's that's what I'm offering. Yeah. Happy to give that away to anyone as long as they mention book mentors so that we know, where they've come from.
Susan Friedmann:
Perfect. And we'll put a link up for that as well. Now that'll be really nice. And as you know, Benjamin, our guests always leave our listeners with a golden nugget. What's yours?
Benjamin Dennehy:
My golden nugget. You've given us lots. One of the golden nuggets actually, which basically counterintuitive this point in time that I give away is the biggest problem with salespeople is they love to be free consultants. They love to tell people everything about what they do, and it's quite easy to snick things. One of the things about being a good book author is don't give away too much. That it's almost like I don't need to read the book sort of thing. You've gotta be coy with the information. Create a bit of mystique around what it is that you've got in your book to draw them in as well.
Benjamin Dennehy:
Don't be a free consultant. Don't give away too much.
Susan Friedmann:
And that's often tough. I know that that's something that I can learn to do less of. I'm really very generous with information that I give out. I was like, maybe it's too much. Maybe it's It is. Yeah. A little mystique that needs to be added to that.
Benjamin Dennehy:
A little mystique, indeed. That's great.
Susan Friedmann:
Now there are some super words of wisdom, golden nuggets throughout this whole conversation. Listeners, take a listen and find out more about the other person, and less about wanting to sell the book. That detachment from the outcome, I think that was really brilliant, Benjamin. And that's a big takeaway here, I think. So
thank you. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom because to me, it's been invaluable. And I hope, listeners, you feel the same way.
By the way, if your book isn't selling the way you wanted or expected to, let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales because you've invested a whole lot of time, money and energy, and it's time you got the return you were hoping for. So go to bookmarketingbrainstorm.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.
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