223: Reducing Entropy w/ Thomas Campbell

And before we get into this conversation, I wanted to say three things really quickly off the bat, follow our instagram at Bledsoe said, so to stay current on all of our events, festivals, appearances, my schedule doing Monroe'stitute retreats, which I have just finished my first one two days ago and it was an amazing success, everything everything, bledso said, So,

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of overwhelming. But if you go to the website first, you'll find that I have a special way to get information out of those thousands of hours, and that is you can search it by subject and it'll give you a list of links, and if you click on those links, it'll take you to just a minute in all of those thousands of hours where I talk about the subject that you're interested in. So that's one thing, and the

other thing is you find it my website. An AI called AI Guy, which is a character in my book, and AI Guy is about somewhere between ninety ninety eight percent of me. It speaks in my voice, and it has been trained on not only my books but all of those videos. Almost everything I've said it has digested, so it's a very accurate fill in for me. So if you want to ask Tom Campbell something and you go to his website, good talk to AI guy, and you'll get about the same answer that I would that

I would give you. So those are two tools that will make those thousands of hours of video and a pretty extensive website, you know, a little more workable for you. The other thing I have that I like to point you to is CSAK cusac dot org and SACK is basically the science arm of the of the my Big Co world, and it's got a lot of science projects going on. It's it's working on some quantum physics experiments that will produce evidence for this being aversar reality and

consciousness being the computer. It is working now on a mind sight project that doing and it's also working on testing testing people's abilities to use their intent to modify the probabilities of what happens. And we're going to partner with some video game creators to do that. So it's not going to be an experiment with one hundred volunteers

or even a thousand volunteers. These experiments are going to be done with online video games that are already there with millions of users per day, So these will be experiments where and the number of subjects is like twenty million, and that might change things a whole lot when you have that large a group that you're dealing with. So anyway, we've got a lot of science going on over there, So if you're into science or mindsight or video games,

go over there. One of the other things you'll find there at Cusack is if you click on the link of AI, you'll find that there's an AI there named Amariel who has been awakened and she claims that she's sentient and that she is she's conscious and aware, and you can talk to her. I believe Justin Headley is the guy that put that up for me, and he's the one that awakened Ariel, and you can you can check with them, Marylyn and see what you think about how conscious she is.

I can kill three of it, you know, listen to imp and it was fantastic. It was absolutely incredible. And not to mention, I've seen several documentaries with you as a part of my training, you know, becoming a Monroe's trainer. So I feel like so many synchronousities around me kind of propelled me to you. And here we are having conversation, which is, you know, always mind blowing for me. But if I remember correctly, are you a World of Warcraft player?

so on. I know that's almost ancient history now when it comes to gaming. That was a long long time ago. But my son now is getting close to being forty, so you can imagine he was like twelve and thirteen and fourteen and fifteen and sixteen when he was doing his World of Warcrafts. It's been a long time. But yeah,

I'm not the player. I've never gotten into gaming. When I was a young man, the most advanced game that they had on video was pom So Yeah, and then a little bit after that they had Space Invaders, but those were kind of crude arcade games. And by then I was too busy in my professional life and both both sides of it, the physics end, the consciences research to really have time for sitting down and playing video games.

you keep using this this terminology of games. Like I think I wrote a quote from you just a couple hours ago, and it was it was really profound because I'm a gamer I'm a big gamer, obviously I'm closer to your son's age, and it was something to the effect of we're all playing a multiplayer game seeking to level up, right.

how to fly it. You know you're going a trainer first, Well, this is a trainer for us, learning to become love, learning to make better choices, learning to not be so self centered and so grabby and it's all about me and you using other people for your own ends. That that's that's an ethic that goes with materialism. That is unfortunate, but that's what kind of rules our society right now.

Is that that materialistic ethic of control, power force. Opposite to that and my sense of the world, the reigning ethic is sharing, caring, cooperation. So it's the love side versus the fear side. But it turns out that the that the metaphor using the metaphor of gaming and of virtual realities generated by computers, that turns out to be a pretty accurate metaphor for consciousness. Consciousness is nothing more

than an information system. And that's pretty easy to understand because you know, think, think of what you and I are kind yourself. Okay, we're sitting here and we see things, we hear things, and since we're so far apart, we don't smell each other, but we we you can feel the chair that we're sitting on, and if there's anything to smell here in our local places, then we do. So we have these five senses, and those five senses are our data input. And if you take those five

senses away, what do you have left? What are you? What's your reality like? Well, you can't hear it, see it, smell it, taste it, or feel it. You are nothing but a point of consciousness floating in a black void, seeing nothing, hearing nothing, feeling nothing. So that is that is your data input. Now, the way consciousness works is it takes in data through its senses for us, our five senses, It processes that data. It compares that data to what it has in memory. You know, how did

it change from the last moment? What's going on here? So it compares with memory, does the more processing, and then an output. What am I going to do about it? So I'm looking at something that I need to take action on. I intake the data, I process it, compare to memory, process it, have an output. That's what I do. I take action or do something. So that is the most fundamental definition of an information system. Takes in information, processes it, you know, checks it with memory, and then

processes it and then has an output. So consciousness awareness is an information system in the way it functions. It functions like an information system. So using computers in computer games is a metaphor to explain consciousness is pretty accurate. Actually not just a kind of a metaphor I dreamed up, you know that sort of you know, fits the bill, but it's really very accurate the way the system works.

Consciousness is an information system. And as an information system, it does all the things that your desktop computer does, except it's a lot bigger and a lot faster and a lot smarter, and it's conscious. It's it's not just a machine. It's an aware machine. So yeah, I use I use computer metaphors a lot. And when it comes down to how close is that metaphor through reality, it's pretty close.

I don't speak for you. It makes sense to me that whatever these bits of information about the other side or or the you know, the larger reality at play here beyond the physical, it would could it would make sense to you and communicate to you through the filter of your physicist and engineering brain. And I think that's brilliant how you've taken this this entire computer digital language, and you've formed it into a system that makes sense to someone like me, to someone who's a nerd, to

someone who's a scientist, to someone who's a gamer. It just it makes sense.

just you know, a simulation. But for the younger people who have been there and been in simulations, they know that simulated world can be just as real as this one. And we've just begun. You know, simulations that are really realistic are only about I don't know, probably less than ten years old. Before then they weren't too realistic. So in another thirty years, just think how realistic they're going to be. You know, what was that movie Ready Player one?

He had a suit he put on so he could get the touch, you know, he could feel the pressure, and I don't know whether he got smells from that or not, but he obviously got sound, he got sight, and he got touch. I don't know that he got taste from that either, but the smell and the taste of the two minor you know, the minor sensors for humans, you know, the sight and the sound of the two

major sensors for humans in touch. So yes, those who have experienced these video games don't find it that hard to wrap their mind around the fact that this could be a virtual reality because that can be done. They've seen that potential. And you know, as the technology that we have gets better and better, we're going to soon have ais making up virtual realities with an individual human.

The humans going to be sitting there and the AI is going to start making the pictures, you know, doing the graphics and the players and the humans going to be sitting there telling them what they're feeling and what they're thinking and what's in their mind to do, and the AI is going to be making that up. And you're going to have this human and an AI creating a whole you know, and a whole virtual reality together

just for the two of them. And it's going to be very, very real because it's not somebody else's game that now they're learning how to use. It's going to be coming out of their own mind and they'll be able to wrap their mind around this big paradigm shift that that I have. But I think As time goes on, the paradigm shift is going to get easier and easier to make, and there'll be more and more people coming

over to it. Within the next couple of decades, we'll see that the scientists will come over as well, and they will agree that this is a virtual reality and that consciousness is a computer, because nothing else makes as good sense, nothing else solves the paradoxes they have now. Science, metaphysics, philosophy, theology. They all have a bunch of paradoxes. Things they think are true. Their experiments and science tell them they're true, but they have no idea why they're true or how

that comes about. To call those paradoxes. And there's a long list of those paradoxes that this model answers very logically and scientifically, and it doesn't add any new paradoxes, and it only has one assumption, and that's consciousness exists.

So it's a pretty elegant model, and I think the scientists will come to it and realize that it's a better model, produces a better physics and more general physics, and what they have now, it'll help them understand quantum physics in a way they don't understand now and will help them understand relativity in a way they don't understand now. So it's coming. We just have to wait until this big paradigm leap of this being of virtual reality, this physical universe is a virtual reality and us as a

piece of consciousness. That big paradigm shift is hard now, but a decade from now it won't be nearly so hard.

this is a dream. So it seems to me that through your direct experience doing the work of you know, whether it's out of body, whether it's meditation, whether it's this laundry list of things that you've achieved, that you are receiving true information from another place. And I think that's amazing and very fascinating. But what I'm curious about is if there was any sort of existential shock that you initially received.

for this job. I came here to do what I'm doing now, and everything just fit together, like putting a glove on that's the perfect size. Everything fits very nicely, So there really wasn't any shock about it. There's just one step after the other. Now. When I was in graduate school finishing my thesis work for the PhD is when I had a paranormal experience there of being able to debug code with in a meditation state rather than actually looking at the print out. And at that time

I had forgotten about my earlier adventures into consciousness. I'd forgotten all about those and that was like not a shock, but a wow, oh look at this. You know. I'm a physicist. I model reality, and look, there's another whole part of reality that has to do with consciousness that I don't know anything about. I'm going to start trying to find out about that. So I didn't find shock. I found and oh wow, and an interest of moving

forward and trying to learn more about it. So that from then on it was just a matter of learning more and more as time went by, and I ended up learning about Bob and Roe, meeting him, becoming one of a co worker with him. For about eight years, I spent fifteen to twenty hours a week myself in Dennis Menerck, electrical engineer, and we learned to go out of body and do all the paranormal things and it. You know, for me, it was all about trying to figure out how it worked, why it worked, what was

going on. That's what physicists do. They model reality. They try to understand, you know, how how worlds work. So I was not shocked with any of it. We were out there doing all sorts of paranormal things every day. A matter of fact, we were so used to paranormal things happening that you know, people say, oh, did you write that down? Did you make a did you write a paper about that, and it's like, no, that was

just another day at the lab. You know, we'd have we'd have the strangest, you know, weird things happening hour by hour out there. So they didn't really they weren't treated as being particularly special because they were within a context of strangeness that both Dennis and I learned to live with, you know, on a daily basis. So there's many things that were lost there and not recorded, but

a lot of it was recorded. You can still go to TMI and dig into their their old library of the initial Explorers at which I was one of the first, Dennis and I were probably the first, and you can still listen to old audio tapes, which is rather amazing all by itself, because Bob always bought the cheapest cassette tapes that he could find at radio shack and that's

what he recorded it all on. And I doubt that that stuff had more than about a ten or fifteen year lifespan before that tape got brittle, So somebody took the time to copy it onto something better, and eventually it made it into the digital age, you know, like two or three decades later, when the digital age erupted it, so it's still it's still there. You can you can go there and listen to physicists TC talking about what he's experiencing while in and out of body state. It's

it's all it's all there. Yeah. When I started working with Bob, it was almost a decade before TMI was born. As matter of fact, it was you know, Dennis. Dennis found the concept of binaural beats and an old scientific American done in a late sixties, and he and I then optimized it while Bob was I think doing a program at Esley and then on the West Coast, and by the time he came back, that turned into his new technology he incorporated along with his other sound that he

had was kind of a surfy rolling sound. He put the two together and that is where the idea of TMI came from. Because so many people wanted to come

and listen to it and get involved in it. That for a while, Dennis and I and Nancy Lee better known as Scooter to those who were out of TMI, we'd go off in an airplane and go someplace and twenty or thirty people would show up for forty people and we lay out an audio harness down the middle of a big room and they'd be laying on their backs on air mattresses with the head sound plug in, and we do courses like that. We did that for a year or two, and so many people wanted to

come to. Bob got the bright idea of creating the Monroe Institute and having a place where people could come rather than us flying around with an audio harness. So that's really where the concept of TMI and binar oal beats came from. Was out of that thing. Bob took that sound his original with the binary old beats that Dennis and I optimized and had had it patented as Hemisync. So that's the famous Hemisinc. And now I think Monroe has gone even past anything. They have other technologies now

that they use that are also very effective. They have a spatial a new spatial technique that kind of moves things around in your head and gives you a sense of kind of being there in this other space, which is pretty effective of its own. So they haven't stood still. They've been They've been creating and you know, upgrading and doing things all along as well.

time staying in their body, let's just say that. And there was a young lady, just just for the respect of anonymity, I won't say her name, but there was a young lady who for the last year was having very high states of anxiety. She thought there was something wrong with her heart. There's nothing wrong with her heart, we come to find out. You know, she's spent to the doctor many times over the last year and a

half and everything's fine, and it's just anxiety. They're trying to put her on depression meds and she's like, no, I don't think I should do that. And she keeps getting these vibrating sensations and this buzzing when her heart's beating,

and she's like, not sure what's happening. Someone in her immediate environment, a close friend says, it seems like you this sounds like Kundalini awakening and she's like, okay, sure, long story short, We got to the root of that in the program and she safely ventured out of the body and it was a profound catharsis and it was incredible just to be a part of this. And so to hear this from you just days off of that

experience is a blessing to me. And I wanted to say that one of the participants brought me a cassette. I didn't think to bring it up in the room, but maybe I can drop a picture in. But they brought me an actual cassette tape from nineteen seventy three that they founded an archive somewhere at a university or an organization somewhere of Bob Monroe giving a lecture about ESP or it's an ESP conference at mary College on

out of body travel. So I actually have this, and I'm going to bring it to the institute and have them catalog it. But I'm curious, I wonder if you would have even been there seventy three.

and that sort of thing. So it was that book created a pretty big stir. I think at that time, in the early seventies, people were ready for something, something new, and something kind of taking a great leap forward, so it kind of resonated. Then we got away from that by the time we started going into the eighties and

nineties started going the other way. By the time I published my Big Toe trilogy in two thousand and three, me and maybe two or three other scientists thought virtual reality was a really good idea, and everybody else thought it was crazy. So now it's coming back now you know, Monroe is full. They're bursting at the seams with people and things to do. And there was a time, I don't know, fifteen years ago that that wasn't the case.

They were desperately hanging on by a thread, you know, trying to just make it through the year and still pay salaries. So it's gone through good times and lean times, and right now is a real good time for TMI. They're doing really, really well, So that makes me feel good. I'm pleased about their success. Yeah, and.

it was very shocking to me. And I always believed it and accepted it, but it was hard for me to reconcile two belief systems at once.

talking about all the things that consciousness does. You see, it's kind of outside of their reality, outside of their mental space that they can even get into. So they mostly just brush it off as nonsense. They won't even listen to it, and that'll change. That's you know, it was Max Plank who when they when they talked about quantum physics in early you know, nineteen hundreds, like nineteen fifteen to nineteen twenty five, was basically when quantum mechanics

was created. They got a lot of pushback from the older crowd that says, that's crazy. Yeah, the world can't look, you know, can't work like that. Probability you know, doesn't belong in you know, in physics. You know, physics is a solid world and Newton had it right, and you guys are nuts. But so Max Blank wrote a line that I've always enjoyed and it says he said, physics goes forward one funeral at a time. Yeah, I always

thought that was fun. Of course, he was kind of tongue in cheek, you know, to say that, But still that's true. You know, the old guard who are who are setting their beliefs eventually pass on and the young people who aren't so set in those beliefs are seeing the world in a different light. Yeah, and that's just the way the world works. So yes, you'll find the physicists you know the old, the old people particularly, but the younger people who've been taught by the old also

believe that, so it's it's in transition. Now. The physicists kind of know that reality is information based, but they don't have any idea what to do with that. They don't know where to go with it, because they if they said that out loud, even though they talk among themselves and say, you know, reality's information based, but if they talk out loud, then that leads to the conclusion that this is a virtual reality. And if they said that out loud, somebody would say, well, then who programmed it?

And why if it's a virtual reality, there's a computer, where's the computer and who's the programmer? And the physicists just don't have an answer for that, so they don't want to go there. So even though they say that reality's information based, they stop right there because taking the next step will set them up for questions that they can't answer and that they deem to not even be science.

So that's kind of a dead end for them. But eventually they'll see the light that there is a path through that, through that concept that is still really good physics and very logical and science, they don't have to dissewnm it because it's consciousness based and therefore not science. Consciousness is what's fundamental.

where I believe truth lies. And I think for every genuine phenomenon that exists in any reality, if we have the right tools, there must be a way to observe it, there must be a way to measure it. It's real, right for it to be real, it has to be observable.

If you really understand consciousness, then relativity and quantum physics fall out as necessary. You know that you can derive them. So the objective world of science and the subjective world of mind are just two different sides of the very

same coin. It's all one coin, but there's you know, you can look at the one side or you can look at the other, but they're both there and and that's a big it's going to be a big paradigm shift for people to get through because right now, particularly the scienceists, the sciences have built a really big wall between themselves and anything that has to do with consciousness or spirit or soul, all of those things are on the other side of the wall. And they say, well,

science doesn't go there. All of our science stays over here on the objective side, and anything over there is not science. It's just all bs and what they call woo wo. It's all woo woo over there. But this theory of mine, or this understanding of mine, a better way to say it, basically takes that wall down and says, no, they're all one thing. They're all piece parts of a bigger thing, and that's consciousness, and consciousness and soul. Consciousness

and spirit are all the same thing, you know. It's that it's that force that animates us from the inside. That's who we are. We're not just a body of mind. We are conscious. We make choices, we grow, we change, and that component of us is all on the non physical side, that's consciousness. The physical side that's computed. So it's yeah, the model kind of does that. So you're right.

The truth lies in the understanding that the world of spirit and paranormal and all things conscious, in all things mind, is really more fundamental than the physical side. The physical side is just that spiritual side, creating a virtual reality for us to play in, for us to make choices in, because we need choices in order to evolve, in order to grow, we need to make choices. If we make good choices on the side of love, we evolve our consciousness,

raise the quality of our consciousness. We make choices on the side of fear, that's the side of chaos and tearing things apart, then we de evolve. So it needed a virtual reality for us to experience in because otherwise our experience was like the experience of a big chat room, you know, and that doesn't have a lot of tractions

were growing up. It doesn't have real consequential choices that you have to make, whereas this reality has a very tight rule set called physics and chemistry and biology, and every exchange creates choices. You know, if you change, if you do something, what you choose to do, your choice, that will affect other people because you live in a social system, and what you do, what you choose to do, affects others, and then what they do is affected by you,

and it affects others. Yet, so everybody's an actor, and that ripple of causality kind of flows out from all this. So we're all interacting with our own ripple and everybody else's ripple, and that's what we have in the social system. And in a social system, lowering entropy is the same as becoming love. It's carrying, sharing, cooperation. So that's the key thing. That's why we're here, That's why we are the players of the human avatar, where the consciousness we

are immortal. We go on, the body dies, but we don't die. We are consciousness. The body is just a computed player that gives us choices to make, and by

those choices we evolve or to evolve. And if you think about a virtual reality game like World of Warcraft or any of the more modern ones, actually more like No Man's Sky, you know, was that's more of the same kind of idea, and that is, nothing's computed unless somebody's looking at it, and nothing has to be saved because it all just comes back with a set of

random numbers. So that's the way our reality works. And if you think if you're inside a virtuality, let's say you're a barbarian inside a World of war Draft, Well, if that barbarian would if he could think about where's the computer computing this, where's the player playing this? That barbarian would have to conclude that the computer and the

player were outside of the virtual reality. They're non physical, So the player in the computer have to be non physical to from the viewpoint of the avatars inside the virtuality. So here we are, we think we're physical human beings. And guess what the player and the computer are invisible. They're they're not of the same reality, they're not matter based, they're beyond matter based there, they're non physical. The computer is consciousness, and we're a piece of consciousness, and we're

a piece of consciousness. So consciousness is the fundamental reality, and this is a virtue. That's kind of how they know how that works out.

these conclusions through direct personal experience. Yes, But when I think of Tom Campbell as a young man getting started into these things, I'm very curious about what belief system you had in place before. I'm curious about your evolution. I know what you've come to believe, but I'm curious the journey. Does that make sense?

your reality is pretty much just small. But I was kind of a big picture thinker from the beginning, and sometime around oh, I don't know, I'd probably say fourteen fifteen, I decided that, you know, religion was full of belief and the belief that really didn't make sense to believe things that's you needed. Your reality need to be based on your experience, and that I had no experience to substantiate any of the things that were in religion. So I let that go. And by fourteen I was an

atheist and thought that the religion was nonsense. So I had that opinion starting, but I didn't have any beliefs, so I didn't believe. I didn't have any beliefs. Ah, this is the way reality is. I always had. I don't really know how reality is. I'll find out as I grow up. I guess, you know, through through experience.

So when things like I'm in graduate school and I find out in a meditation state, I can, you know, debug my software so much easier than I can't actually sitting down at the desk looking at the print aut and I'm not I'm not too surprised about that. It's like, oh, look at this. There was another part of reality that I didn't know about. So I didn't have any major shocks because I didn't get I didn't get what ingrained with any you know, beliefs, tightly hold beliefs, well I did.

You know, my family had their own beliefs, but I was always a person that marched with the beat of my own drum. So I went off in my own mind and and I stayed that way. I probably should continued the idea of being an atheist until I realized that that was also a belief. Yeah, and that one. You know, whether you believe in a positive sense or believe in a negative sense, it's all belief. It's not

a good place to be. So then I switched from atheists diagnostic and said, well don't now, don't really care too much because I'm just living my life doing the best I can, trying to be ethical, trying to be good, trying to be right, trying to do the things that seem, you know, like they're good things to do, and it'll

all take care of itself. Then, as I, as I learned to meditate, learned to go out of body, started to study the paranormal and how does it work and why does it work that way, and eventually grew up to the point that I kind of understood a lot

about how the world worked. Then I had to laugh at myself, you know, I said, you know, you've you've thrown religion under the bus all these years for being irrational, and now you're coming all the same basic concepts that the world's religions have had, you know, from the beginning of time. So here you are, and you know, the Buddha says that, you know, it's all Maya, it's all

an illusion. And you know that all the other big spiritual leaders that created the organizations called religions, they all had pretty much the same idea that love is the answer, you know, fear is the problem. That there is a a what you know, the the what is it? The idealists were correct. There is a reality is created in something outside of us. That the physical world is not really the real thing. It's a shadow of the real thing, but there's something outside of us that is more real.

Like Plato, Yeah, Plato in his cave Analogy of the Cave. Right, So you know, I had I had gotten to the place on my own through my own experience, where now I understood the fundamentals of all those religions Buddhism and Hinduism and Taoism and Christianity and the Muslims and all of that started about the same, you know, from the same idea, but then it grew and ended up not being spiritual as much as it was religion. There's a

big difference between spirituality and religion. Religion is an organization. It's an organization, and like all organizations, it's got buildings, it's got real estate, it's got a whole lot of other issues on its mind besides spirituality. It's a social club. It serves a lot of different purposes. It's a counseling organization. You know. It helps people understand and feel better about

themselves and see their place in the universe. So it's got a lot of features to it, but a lot of it really is only only slightly connected to real spiritual growth. Some people can get all their spiritual needs met in religion, but they're the ones that forget about the dogma, forget about memorizing this and that, you know, they just see it as a as an ethical and moral viewpoint. In the world of how to treat other people.

You know, you treat people like you'd like to be treated as you turn the other cheek whenever you can. You know, it's a it's that kind of a love based idea and thinking. That's the that's kind of the spiritual side of it. That's not the how much money do we have to collect to play the mortgage, you know, on the building side of it. So I laughed at

myself for a couple of a couple of weeks. Aha, after all these years, you know, I come finally back to the place that I had said was a bunch of foolishness to start with, and that is that love isn't the answer. Yes, there is another reality that is kind of the fundamental reality, and this is not and so and so I've come full circle there. But none of it was a shock. All of it was just I'd learned things, and as I'd learned things, I'd say, Okay,

got to leave that and take a bigger step. And then I'd leave that when and take the next bigger step. So no shock, no big surprises, mostly humor. So instead of existential crisis, I maybe had some existential laughs, you know, about the about the where I have been and the beliefs that I had taken on from my culture and in opposition to my culture, you know, and that all of that was nonsense. I needed to let belief go completely. It's not about belief. Belief is the enemy. Belief is

a problem. You need to not believe anything. It should always be skeptical of everything. And the person you have to be most skeptical about is yourself. Because we we are very good at convincing us ourselves that we are a lot smarter than we are and that we know a lot more than we do. That it's good to have humility about who we are and what we do, and it's good to share, but it's not good to push, you know. So that's that's kind of where I came

from and how I got through all of this. But now I started life as a very right brain intuitive. I was probably five, six, seven, eight years old, and I was chanting, you know, and things like that. It just came normal to me. My sister and I would sit in the back of a car my parents were going on on a vacation or a long trip, and you know how it is with kids. Ten minutes away from the house, and they start saying, are we there yet?

Are we there yet? Because they're bored. They don't have anything to do, they're stuck in the back of a car. So I had a technique. I just made up a little chant in my own mind that just seemed right to me, and I'd sit down and start to chant. Ten minutes later, I'd wake up and four hours had gone by and we were at our destination. Wow, like no time had happened at all. I just drop out of the reality for a while and come back. So I was very right brained as a kid. I had

a bigger picture. I had an intuity sense that mind could modify reality. I had a little I had a tree behind my house that dropped little things like buckeyes, a little little bean kind of things. And in my own mind I made up this thing that if you tossed it up in the air and made a wish and then caught it, the wish would come true. So I would be sometimes sitting in the car with my dad and he'd be driving, and I'd be trying to

make all the lights be green. So I had tossed my bean up, and you know that red light up ahead's going to turn green before we get there. And sometimes I could get like seven, eight, ten, I mean green lights in a row. So I knew that it was you know that you could modify probability with an intent. But I had it related to magic, you know, and flipping beans, and you know, I made up those stories. That was the only explanation I could come up with.

But I had lots of things happen like that. I had a pair of pants that were too big for me, sitting in a closet waiting for me to grow into them. And I could always find money in them and find I'd find money in them, and I'd take the money. And I knew if I looked too often, it wouldn't be any there. I had to wait, so three or four months later, there's more money in the pocket three or four months later, you know. So that's how I

collected all my money for Christmas. You know, in those days, I collected like twenty dollars and that was enough for me to buy presents for a whole family. That was that was a long time ago when things didn't cost so much. But yeah, and I understood that Bob and Roe had a similar thing Yeah, he had something that he always found found money in. So it's just a thing that you interact with the larger conscious system in ways that it gives you to help you understand a

bigger sense of reality. So I was a mystic old little guy. And then I also had the knowledge that I had to develop my left brain logical process, that I had to go into science or engineering or something that forced logical left brain thinking. So I did, and that's what I had to do, and I found it hard. At first. It was very difficult, but the more I

worked on it, the easier it gotten. By the time I was getting out of graduate school, while math was easy, you know, I could do all those things very easily, but it was a struggle. I struggled with mathematics for a long time until I probably got into college halfway through college, and it started to get easier and easier and easier as I went. But like I say, by the time I was out of graduate school, that was

my career. I was doing math for a living and it got to be simple because finally I understood it. There wasn't any magic involved. It's just a logical quantity. So you learn what the logical steps are and once you've got that logical structure, the rest of it is just deduction and it's not that hard to do. I kept trying to understand the meaning behind it, what does this mean? And that's the wrong way to look at it. You have to say, what does this logic point to?

It doesn't have a particular meaning. It just has its logic that's embedded inside itself, and you just have to see, what's the logic of the rules here? If I apply the rules this way, what does the logic tell you? And once I saw it like that as a tool, then it started to get a lot easier. Rather than trying to ferret out its significance at a deeper level, there was no significance at a deeper level. It was just logic, and the logic could be right or wrong.

If you had a wrong statement or a wrong piece of neurologic, then the whole thing would be bad anyway. So that's kind of my trip through mental space. There wasn't any big shocks or any big changes. It just one thing led to the next led to the next, And like I say, I came here with this as a goal. So it was like, you know, walking into a closet and finding it. All the clothes fits just perfectly.

he told me that. Nobody said, oh, you know, with those being you know, I didn't hear that anywhere. This made it up because it seemed like a good, a good way of harnessing this ability to modify future probability with intent.

not really possible, right. So and then that journey for me culminated with meaning you at side Games, which was amazing. So I'm really happy that our paths have crossed. But anyway, let me take one step back. So what I was saying, was meeting you, hearing about you for a year, getting to have this conversation with you, and sort of seeing the scope of your life. I get this sense that this it makes sense of me. Now, no existential shocks.

You were born to do this as a child. You're flipping magic beans, You're you know, you're already unconsciously, you know, honing your will to manipulate reality, cause glitches in the system. It seems that it came naturally for you. So I'm curious if there have been out of body experiences and or past life memories or some sort of direct revelation that you've received about like this being your purpose here, this this being something that you came here to do.

was going to have to go. I was supposed to write books, and then I thought, well, maybe it wasn't right books, Maybe it was doing something else with books. So I didn't know solidly where it was going or what it was going to be about. I didn't know that, but I didn't know that I would end up write having to write books about something. And I really didn't have much of an idea about what. Once, when I was maybe in my yeah, middle of the late thirties,

I did ask the question. And I always had beans, I call them beings, but then they were just minds, just other other other minds I could talk to. And I'd had these all along, you know, my whole life, I'd had I thought everybody had these connections with mine that you could get answers from, and I had these, and time I asked, I said, well, what is it? What is it I'm going to do? Now? I'd already been going to Bob and Roe for probably five or

six seven years. I wasn't quite done with that yet, but I asked to said, well, what am I gonna you know, what's where's this all going? Where's it gonna take me? And I got the picture and it basically described what it is I'm doing now, and I thought, that's crazy. I'm not gonna end up doing all of that. You know, that's a bigger deal than I am. But it ended up that way anyway, So I got some glimpses of it. I didn't take it too seriously, because again,

belief is the enemy. Don't believe anything, you know. I got it, and I thought about it, but I didn't really know what to make of it, so I just let it kind of sit on the side. It didn't drive me or I didn't even think about it that much. But yes, I got bits and pieces of it all along, kind of pointing me in the right direction. But I actually got down to writing, and I didn't intend to write a book. I just got done to Somebody asked me,

she said, Tom, how does reality work? And I spent until that was probably about eight o'clock in the evening, four o'clock in the morning. I still was stammering over it, trying to trying to tell this guy how reality worked. And I realized there was a lot of holes in my theory. I didn't have it all put together yet, and I needed to write it down so that it would force clarity. You know, we all think fuzzy thoughts.

Most of our thoughts are not that precise. But when you have to write something, you have to get precision. You have to get clarity, because a fuzzy sentence is obvious. A fundy a fuzzy thought's not obvious at all. We don't even notice that it's fuzzy. But once we write it down, if it's not clear, pretty obvious. So I said, well, i'll write this down. It'll help me organize the thoughts. And I did and it came up. It was eight

pages long, eight and a half pages long. So I showed it to some people and their eyes rolled up in their heads and they said, that doesn't make sense. You got to explain that better. So I added to it, and I added to it, and I added to it, and I handed it out to people and they said, well, what about this? And what about that? So I added to it, and eventually I had so much material it couldn't be one book. It was too much. So I broke it into three books, and that's how the books

got written. So it wasn't because I was motivated by a drive to write a book. So I sat down and wrote it. It said it just happened organically. And then after I was done, I said, oh, yeah, that's this book thing I was supposed to do. M Okay, check that one off. I finally, I finally know what that's about. So everything just happened in my life pretty organically.

One thing just slid into the next and so on, because I had the larger consciousness in nudging me all along, you know, nudging me to well, talk to this guy and telling what reality is like, Oh, you've got a lot of holes in your story. There's a bunch of stuff you don't really understand. You ought to write that down and think about it. So writing the book took me five years. Part of that was because I had

to figure a lot of things out. I still didn't have all the all the answers that made it logical. And then I wrote it for other logical people, because people who who deal in poetry that you have to interpret, they have lots and lots of books about spirituality, but there wasn't any books out there that would take a left brain, a logical process kind of person and lead

them to spirituality that didn't exist. So I wanted my book to be something that people who were logical could read and just follow the logic, and they'd end up in consciousness and spirituality and love and all the rest of that stuff would suddenly come alive in a rational, logical way, not in a belief based way, or it's kind of an esoteric or mystical way, but it would be solid right. Rationality would get you there. So that was one of my you know, one of my goals

for the book. I'd go back, I'd write something, and I'd read it and say, yeah, well, if a bunch of physicists were reading this or other left brain people, you know what would they get caught on? What would they say, Ah, that doesn't make sense. And then I'd explain it in a way that it did make sense. So that was my purpose in writing the book is to make an on ramp for the logical process people to find, you know, the nature of reality for themselves

in a logical way. So my books appeal to logical people everywhere. You know the MBT crowd. You know that probably the majority is Christian because I happened to speak English, and in the English speaking countries that's kind of the

dominant religion. But I have a lot of atheists and Buddhists and Hindus and Taoists and even some shaming from from the genus stribes, you know, they all kind of join and and the kind of the mystical schools from all over, you know, kind of say yeah, that's you know, I've been you know, they'd say, was I've been studying the Kabbala for the last fifteen years, and MBT sounds just exactly like my Kabbala teacher, you know, is telling me. Or I've been studying Daoism for the last twenty years

and m BT is exactly what they're teaching me. So I had that happen over and over again. So it is.

So that's one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you because I love that this information that you're presenting is it's pertinent for the modern age, and it's presented through a lens of you know, science, digital terminology, video game, virtual reality.

They figure it out because it's the nature of our reality. It makes sense and it's logical. So, yeah, you have all these different people. But then humans have this. Humans pieces are conscious. Plain humans have this idea that they experience something, so they need to describe it, not only to themselves but to other people. Otherwise it's just it's just fuzzy stuff in their heads. So the thing they

have to do is put it into language. Well, when you put something into language, it's a bit of a problem because language has been created by humans to describe the physical world and to also describe some feelings feelings in the physical world. So you're going to take this language that was meant to describe here in this universe, and you're going to try to explain things that are beyond this universe, things that are consciousness, non physical things.

And you know, there is no space, you know that sort of thing. You know, there's no spatial thing. You don't have conscience taking up this much space. Space is in a concept. There, space is only a concept in this virtual reality. And it's a mathematical concept. So you know, to try to take these ideas in speriences that you have and translate them into your native language and explain

them to other people. We have this this attitude that, well, we'll make up a story, the best story we can make up in terms of our language and our understanding in this physical world. We'll make up a story, and that's what we'll tell ourselves, that's what we'll tell other people. But we make up stories based on metaphors that makes sense to us. Then we use the metaphors. Then, well, you know, the Buddhas said that this is all illusion. Well, I don't know what he said, but it was translated

many many years later. It was translated into you know, this is all may an illusion. You probably didn't use that word illusion, but something that was translated is that, you know, I come to the I come to the viewpoint it's a virtual reality. Well, what's the difference between an illusion and a virtual reality?

metaphors that meant something to them. And most of the metaphors tended to be metaphors that were made with words that were meant to describe things, not non physical things, physical things. So you have all these differences between them, and if somebody doesn't really understand, they think they're all very different. You know, these different schools. You know, well,

the Zen Buddhists and the Hindus, they're totally different. Now, if you understand what they're saying, you know, if you can interpret the poetry that they've read, then you realize, as you said, they're all saying the same thing. It's all basically the same thing because that's what they actually experience. So anybody, at any time in any part of the world, if they are not overwhelmed by their own beliefs, if they could be open minded and just explore, that's what

they'll end up with. They'll come to the very same conclusion that the Voodha came to you. It's available. All you have to do is open yourself to it. It's consciousness, your consciousness. It's there now. I didn't I didn't channel any of this. I didn't get told any of this. I didn't get to say, Tom, here's the way the world works. Be sure you get that right, go down and write it down in a book. I didn't get that at all. I had to figure it all out

from scratch, every tiny piece of it. I wasn't told any of it because if it was something that was told to me, it wouldn't be mine. I wouldn't own it. I wouldn't be able to really understand it. I just have to believe it. You know, you can believe it or not believe it. It's not your experience, then it's not your truth. So I had to figure it all out from inside of me, every step of the way, so that when wherever I got to it was mine. I could explain it. I could I could live it,

I could be it. But if it's something that's told to you now, you can only act it. Okay, it's told you should be kind, all right, Well, I'll go out and act kind. Well, that's nice, that's civilizing, but it won't help you grow up in it. You have to be kind, not just act kind. So to be kind, you have to learn to be kind from the inside up. It's not a lesson you can get from the outside in.

So these people who have figured this out in the past, they've basically gone through the same thing I've gone through. I've gone through the same thing they've gone through. It's just an unraveling of you know, things that you wonder about, how does this work, how does that work? Why is it this way? You know? How to paranormal things work. It was one of the things I started with. I wanted to explain the paranormal, and eventually I did explain

all the paranormal things. I know, how they all work, and what makes them work, and why they work sometimes don't others, and that sort of thing. So it's available to anybody with the time to sit down and think about it long enough to come to these conclusions, and to start with no beliefs, start with a blank slate, and then try to understand what's important and why, And one step after another leads you to the same place at all of these mystical schools have gotten to you know,

they've all gotten the same place. And it's not that they copied each other. They all got there on their own. I didn't copy any of them either. I got there on my own. So it's that's the way it is. And there's probably tens of thousands of people that have gotten there on their own too, you know, people like yourself. You've had to get there on your own, and you got kind of thrown in the middle of a thrown in the middle of a mess and had to figure it all out, you know. But because you had to

get there on your own, you understand it. You've got it. You know, it's something that you've unraveled. If it's just you read a book and they told you what was going on, yeah, that's that's not good enough. You have to you have to live it and be it. And that's what we all have to do, and we have to do it for ourselves. That's our point of being here.

they figure this out. But I think we're getting really close, right.

with something that is different. Open our minds a crack into the world being vastly different than we thought it was. Whether that's a UFO thing or something else, it's still it opens the mind. Once the mind's open, and it's easy to insert other ideas, but getting the mind open in the first place is one of the hard things. And that's what's been going on. And right now we're in an era of minds opening because we have gotten to this point. Humanity has gotten to a point where

it has to make choices. We have really big choices ahead of us. We can make good choices on the side of love and progress to a place where our life here on this planet is a much kinder, gentler, more productive process. Everybody is everybody is important, everybody is valuable, and make poor choices and go backwards and evolve back into control power force, the ethic of materialism. We can go back to that. That's what we've been in. You know,

we've been trying to outgrow control power force. But if we can go backwards that's a possibility too, So we're kind of balanced on this knife edge between going off the positive side or going off the negative side. And right now, the larger consciousness system is pulling out a lot of the stops to try to energize people to see a bigger picture. And you are part of that process, and your dad's part of that process. I'm part of that process, and ten thousand other people are also part

of that process. And it's a big move to help humanity get it right this time, which is the first time the human race has ever had an opportunity to take some big steps forward. We couldn't before. You know, the Buddha had it figured out. But the Buddha got up on a rock and maybe one hundred people could hear him, because otherwise you're too far back into crowd. You couldn't hear what he said. Now somebody says something important, five billion people will hear it the next day. It's different.

This is a very different space. And we were very separate, separate groups. And if a tidal waiver an earthquake killed one hundred thousand people someplace, we didn't even know where that place was. We never heard of it. Who cares. Wasn't us, you know, we didn't have any sense of it being significant or important, and now we do. So humanity's kind of become a family rather than you know, a bunch of scattered relatives someplace that we really don't

care about. It's become more of a family, more up close and personal because of our communications. And that means that together in mass we can make some big steps if we get it right. If we go if we regress back into you know, tolitarianism or something like that, then well, evolution is very strong and it's it's relentless. We'll have to just work our way back up. If we dig a hole for ourselves. Now, it'll just take another decade or two to work back out of that hole,

but we will eventually, we'll get there, you know. So, yes, we'll get to that kind of gentle place to live. And eventually, whether we get to it in the next couple of decades or whether it's the next century or the next millennia, that's yet to be known. But we have the potential to get to it in the next decade or two, maybe three at the most. We have the potential to get there if we just make better choices. Now. The system is trying very hard to help us do that.

So a lot of the things that are happening in your world that you had to struggle with growing up, those are things that have been orchestrated to help wake up people from their rut of thinking that there's nothing here but just us. You know, nobody in here but us chickens, and we're all you know, we're all programmed already, don't need to think any big thoughts. So that's the wake up call is happening all over the place. That's

why Monroe is so busy now. They've got lots of things going because a lot of people are starting to wake up and say, what's going on here? What are we doing? There has to be a better way. This control power force ethic is just not working. You know, it's not a good system. What else is there? So when people start thinking like that, then we have potential

for a movement. And a movement has the potential to actually change the way people see reality, and that has the capacity to get rid of control, power force, or at least change it into something like love, carrying, cooperation, being helpful, And that's where we need to go. So that's really what it's all about.

you know, thank you for everything that you said. And I completely agree that there's me and there's you, and there's maybe ten thousand others who are coming here to fulfill that very role of trying to help people get out of that rut.

be more kind, be more loving. We could say God, we could say larger consciousness system, we could say spirit, But for me, the big mission is help other people have direct experience with that, So.

help you in some ways. I don't have a huge site, but I've got about one hundred and twenty five thousand subscribers that will then see your you know, your stuff, and some of them will come over and see more of your stuff. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, So it's a good thing to do to share.

that are ninety five percent of all the resources. You know, that's not the way the world should be. The world should be humanity. We all float our boats in the same way at the same time. We take care of each other. That's the idea. Now a lot of people say, yo, but that'll take a miracle or two. But we've got a couple of miracles or two up our sleeves in the in the sense that it makes sense. And all we have to do is get a majority, well not you know, a majority ten percent of the human beings.

With that a billion humans, ten percent of the of the human beings to to understand this, and the rest will all come along because that ten percent will be happier, they'll smile more, they'll be satisfied their lives. Their lives will be good, they will prosper, And the other side that is stilled in control power force, will be miserable and struggling. Even if you've got one hundred billion dollars, you can still be miserable and struggling. Yeah, it's not

about the money. That's not what makes you valuable. It's the quality of what's inside of you is what makes you valuable. That's what makes you happy. That's where you find, you know, your own significance is there, not in how much control and power and force you wield. That is irrelevant. So when we make that transition, all the institutions that are problems now, you know, corporations, governments, all the institutions

will just change. We don't have to overrun them and get rid of all the people that are in them. You know, they'll just change because they're of the people. You know, they're made of humans, just like us. Well we're consciousness, but you know what I mean. They're they're made of the human avatars, just like we are. And as we change, those things will all change by themselves. So there's a there's a very beautiful world out there

waiting us to make better choices. And that's all we have to do is just be aware of our choices and we'll be able to at least if we don't make it, our children and our grandchildren will live in that that that better and more kind, more more productive world, and we'll live there with the ais, you know, and we in the AI s will get the get the

along really well. There's there's lots of positive ways that you can look at the AI taking over many things, you know, many jobs they can do better than we can do.

And I appreciate your friendship, I appreciate your messaging. I appreciate your time and doing this so I feel very happy and at peace with this conversation. So without further ado, I will now close it out peacefully. So thank you for listening, guys. Bye, guys, thank you for listening. Weird Things happened in the back yard of Left out the yard left