Beating The Book: “The Last Dance” Docuseries (Reaction, Half-Truths, and Betting Lines)

in the nineties. UM. Such a great docuseries in so many ways, but I've tried to sort of say things that others aren't necessarily uh during the course of events. Here after parts one and two, after parts three and four, and now after parts five and six, talking about reaction from both myself and Michael Wilbon you know him best

from p t I over at ESPN. Adam Stanko from the Rejecting the Screen podcast who joins me a couple of times on this podcast and wanted to talk about some of the half truths in there, some of the misleading points in the docuseries, some of the omissions and then get into some of the betting lines of the biggest games of that stretch. About as comprehensive a look

at the last dances you will get. Oh and the le Bradford Smith's story as well towards the end of Scottie Pippen story that you won't hear anywhere else except right here on the Beating the Book podcast. Enjoy Welcome Back to a Numbers Game with Jill. Alexander's back on a Numbers game just like Massett Kill Alexander Live from San Francisco series, except channel two oh four. Danny, did you get to uh? Do you get to watch the first two installments of the ten part document? He's the

last dance on ESPN last night. You know, now, how old are you, Danny? Because you you were not around, at least in a conscious way for most of the Jordan ears right. Yeah, So I was born in one So grew up in Chicago though, so it was ingrained in me so ever since I was born. Listen, he's

the greatest player who's ever lived. I will not be drawn into these ridiculous sports radio debates between him and Lebron because Lebron is great, but if you ever put those two together on the same court in a game or series of consequence, you will never get me to believe that Michael Jordan's wouldn't UH just mentally win that battle because there was no better competitor, and there's nobody who could get into uh an opponent's head better than Michael Jordan could. But I find it this thing is

so fascinating. We'll go through the break on this, but I you know, the the first thing that that leaps to mind from that are the things that I either didn't remember or more likely in this case, may not have even known, because you know, I was I was

a kid in junior high when Jordan's was in college. Um, and you know in high school, I think when he when he went to the pros, and it's there's certain things that you you remember, but you don't remember all the details of, one of which was, uh this notion that in the second year, in his second year, when he came back from injury, that he was held to a fourteen minute time limit in games down the stretch.

It was sort of the bulls way of quote unquote protecting him but really maybe doing the old tankaroo back then as well, and Jordan was having none of it that prior to his explosion in the playoffs against the Celtics, where he scored forty nine and sixty three and consecutive games, even though the Celtics both of those as the Bulls entered the playoff and eight six is an eight seed after having one just thirty games. I don't remember that

fourteen minute limit. That was surprising to me. And I also don't remember in their you know season, which is ostensibly what the Last Dance is about. I don't quite remember the Pippin drama as big as it was, Like I remember he was out with an injury, but this was way worse than I ever thought it was, for ever knew that it was. Those two things were shocking to me. I want to get back in after the

break though. I want to get back to the thing that I think was the biggest omission from parts one and two, something that I remember that at least fifteen seconds should have been devoted to because it could have changed everything. Get to that. Coming back on a numbers game at Visa the Sports Betting Network. Welcome back to a Numbers game with you Know Alexander back on the numbers Game brought you by the bet MGM app Gil

Alexander in San Francisco, Daddy Burke in Las Vegas. UH. Parts one and two of the Last Dance ESPN S docuseries began last night, pushed up from when it was supposed to air originally, but during the coronavirus pandemic, all the parties involved were like, yeah, let's let's push this up. We could probably uh do better. And by the way, they're not completely done with production on parts nine and ten, but they'll get there by the time we're there. Um,

So let's flash up this tweet. This is, by the way, not the part that I was referring to when I think when I when I was saying that something I thought was a glaring omission last night. But this is David Purdham, which he put out on Believe it was Friday about just you know, how amazing for those who weren't around at the time and weren't you know, present for the amazement that was the two time three peeting

Chicago Bulls of the nineties. Um, from a betting standpoint, the greatest thing about them, as David Perdam tweets here, is there amazing streek of being favored in professional basketball games UM and Perdam points out our buddy David Pernham longest reeks of consecutive games being favored. The Rams held that record. The greatest show on turf Rams of the turn of the century, fifty seven straight games which they

were favored. Bama in college football, seventy two straight games between uh the Astros, the Cheat and Astros allegedly four straight games. I know it was seventeen, don't tweet me. But then there's the Bulls from five to ninety seven, one hundred and eighty five straight games in which they were favored. Much of that, of course, the ninety six ninety seven version of the Bulls, which won seventy two games at the time seventy to ten, the greatest regular

season of all time. They went on to win their fifth title that year. Keep in mind, of course, the Warriors broke that with the seventy three and nine season middle of the last decade, but that was the year the Warriors lost to the Cavaliers UM when they went scoreless. It should be pointed out the last four minutes and

thirty nine seconds of Game seven. The seventy three win Warriors anyway, a d eighty five straight games being favored by those ninety seven Bulls, so so not having you know, been sort of you know, you were an infant when they were winning their fifth and six championships. Then Danny did those two parts drive home for you more than you ever kind of could figure just how huge they were. I mean, just growing up in Chicago myself, I knew that I had to, you know it, study as much

on Jordan as I needed to. And it wasn't even because it was a necessity. Obviously I wanted to. I mean, I love watching the guy in old highlights and whatnot. But the thing that stood out to me that I didn't really know as much until watching this documentary Gil is just the upper management. How things were so transparent back then. I mean, Jerry Kross openly saying that it

was gonna be Phills last season. I mean, I know that's pretty evident, but more so the whole Scottie Pippen debacle was very interesting to me, basically how that was just such a mess. And he's openly saying that he's gonna get traded here and he's just incredibly underpaid. Now I know, it's relative back then to what it is now, but still people put it up to a scale. It's just ridiculous to see that kill. I mean, how underappreciate

and undervalued he was at the time. And I think Jordan's says the best when if you mentioned my name, you also have to mention Scottie Pippen. I think that's the most, you know, the most prominent thing that Jordan does, and to recognizes that he's not taking all the credit in at any point just himself. He's always giving credit to his team and especially to Scottie Pippen. So that's always fascinating to see and you have to appreciate as being a fan. Yeah no, and I thought Jordan came

off well with that. Listen, uh, Danny, I had Scottie Pippen shoes. I didn't have Michael Joe, I didn't have Airic Jordan's. I still have my Pippen somewhere. I loved those shoes. I mean that Scotti Pippen was one of the top fifty players of all time in the National Basketball so Station. And it should be pointed out that between the two three peats, when Jordan went off and played best played baseball, which will get to I'm sure

as the docuseries continues. Scottie Pippen was undoubtedly one of the best handful of players in the NBA, arguably could have been m VP season absolutely so um, there's that.

But but getting back to because I want to creshdo up to to what I think was the big omission, the things that surprised me again or the things that I that I didn't know the fourteen minute limit for Jordan in his second season down the stretch after the injury, and how he rebelled against that whole Tanka Tanka palosa uh notion from the Bulls under the guise of protecting Jordan's I didn't know about the extent to the Pippin drama.

The final year that contract, by the way, is horrific, and I know that, like Scotti Pippens, that he had to you know, you know, he wanted to make sure his family was cure and I get that. But Okay, there's like a happy medium in there somewhere like that

was a seven year deal for eighteen million. Just by contrast, to give you an idea, Danny Joewan Howard of the Bullets signed a deal in n and I do mean Bullets, not Wizards for seventeen million a year at that point, So think about just how under paid a guy like Scottie Pippen was the other thing that that surprised me when Scotti Pippen was drafted. Even those of us who were basketball fans, and we're huge basketball fans, we had never heard of Scottie Pippen, which the docuseries points out

most people hadn't. I didn't realize that he went to Central Arkansas as a manager, a team manager at the beginning. Like that little detail. I didn't know either. So I think that the docuseries did very well in in really as much as you thought you know about the Bulls, there were just these few details were like, wow, I

didn't I didn't realize that. Um. I do think the college stories about Jordan, particularly the one about him writing home to his mom asking her to send stamps, was super relatable, and I thought that was a feel good moment of the first two parts, I think everybody can relate to that as as former college students. Uh so giving you know, shedding light on the fact that at one time Mike Jordan's was actually a mere mortal like all of us. Uh. But then the thing that I

thought was the glaring omission. And you won't get this probably anywhere else, but as a guy that grew up as a Washington Bullets fan when Jordan's came into the league, it was it was after his great three years at North Carolina, after he won Olympic gold. His very first game in the National Basketball Association first regular season game,

the Bulls are at home against the Washington Bullets. In the first half of the first game, Jordan goes up for his first slam dunk in his entire NBA career, and Ricky mhorn Brus Brothers of the Washington Bullets goes underneath him, and Jordan's crashes to the ground on his back and on the ground for thirty seconds. His entire NBA career could have been over in the first half, and I'm not exaggerating that. Somebody's got to find that.

I don't know if there's a YouTube clip, but that should have been given ten to fifteen seconds, because that really could have been a game changer. Instead, they skipped forward to game three. Anyway, one omission and what I thought was the great first two parts look forward to it moving forward. Um, but that was that was unbelievable.

Ricky Mharne and the Bullets, who were a middling team back in the eighties, always one about forty games stuck into the playoffs, could have been over all over before h Jordan had a chance to win one championship, let alone six. Welcome back to a Numbers game with Jil Alexander back on the Numbers Game, Kill Alexander live in San Francisco. Um, So, Danny, I hate being this guy. I know. I'm afraid you're gonna ruin it for us here. Gil.

Let me just let me just prepose it by saying I loved the first two parts of The Last Dance, the the documentary, the docuseries that will have ten parts in total on ESPN. Great thirty for thirty. Um. Despite the fact that yesterday I pointed out, Oh, I thought, you know, there was a little omission they could have thrown in the fact that an MJ's first game with the Bulls, his career might have been ended right there.

So I thought that was worth ten fifteen seconds. That was just a little thing, you know, Because I'm a Washington Bullets fan growing up, no one was into the NBA or college hoops more than I was as a kid who grew up in the DC area, where right in the middle of a C C country. I mean, we breathed college basketball and loved Jordan's so you know. But here's but here's the deal, Danny. And let me also just preface it by saying, and you get this.

You do shows. Um, we all make errors all the time, right, Like, there's not a show that goes by Danny where I don't make some dumb error. Right, I'll say something that I my brain, you know, I'll be thinking one thing and then will come out of my mouth differently. But we're on live ten hours a week, or I am anyway on this show, so so errors happened. I'm not

talking about flipping areas. I'm just talking about You have this documentary that, by the way, six point one million people watched on Sunday night six point three I think for the first hour five point nine million the second hour, so by any by any measure, was a fabulous success for ESPN. But if you're doing a documentary, you actually have the time to vet what it is that you're doing.

And I even talked about yesterday how there were some things that surprised me, and I talked about, Oh, I didn't realize that Scottie Pippen drama was quite that big heading into the and into season. I didn't realize that he was a manager when he when he first got onto the Central Arkansas campus and team. But the big thing that I didn't recall, if you remember what I said yesterday on the show, was I didn't remember this fact that much of I believe the second part you'll

correct me if I'm wrong. Was it the second hour where they talked about UH Jordan's second year in the NBA eight six season, UM that he was on this fourteen minute limit UH down the stretch of the season, the bulls Jerry Krouse basically saying, yeah, we want to protect you from your injury. Jordan had broken his foot early in the second year of his NBA career and he missed I think sixty four games in total. UH.

But when he came back late in the season. You know, the whole point of much of the documentary the other night was, Yeah, he was on this fourteen minute UH limit UM restriction and Jordan was super frustrated by it, and on and on and on and on. Well, just because the kind of guy I am, I decided to do a little research on that because I'm like, I don't remember that at all. So I went to Basketball Reference, Danny, and if you could flash up my tweet that I

just tweeted out mere moments ago. These are MJ's minutes in all of the games. The minutes are on the far left. These are all of MJ's minutes logged in the final what is that? Uh, sixteen fifteen games of the season, The final fifteen games of the season. Thirteen fourteen, okay, those were the first two games back, but then fifteen sixteen, sixteen, nine, twenty three, thirty seven, twenty nine, So what are we

talking about? And again, we all make mistakes, but like, that was a huge part of the first couple hours of the docuseries, and so in retrospect now when I look at that, I'm like, uh, that sucks. That's kind of disappointing. I don't know what your reaction is to that, but I don't believe in alternative facts, and I thought that that was something that if you have time to prepare or a docuseries, especially as one as hyped as this, one that you could have gotten right. And by the way,

didn't MJ even say that he had this restriction? Yeah, that's the thing. He definitely emphasized the guild. Now I'm curious as if this was just exaggerated, as something's tend to be when it comes to as big of a stage like this documentary. And maybe they narrowed it down to the first couple games because you see it right around that area, and then they just made it seem like it was expanded even more. That could have been

something that's the possibility. But yeah, I mean when you get down farther in the stretch, it's just completely eliminated when they get into April. So it's interesting and I'm curious if anything gets brought up more so about it. Yeah, um, just you know, and this gets into a whole another thing, and I don't want to get too deep into it, but there's behavioral economics how we tend to remember things differently years ago. The Mandela effect is the pop culture

term for it. Um. Anyway, someone has to bring it up, So I thought I'd be that guy, and so I am.

Welcome back to a numbers game with Jill Alexander I'm sort of like, um, um, almost apologetic about this because I want to stress how much I love the thirty for thirty franchise and how much I still enjoyed the Dock despite the fact the last dance dock, despite the fact that yesterday I came on and said, oh, I wish they had shown this uh Jeff ruland uh Michael Jordan's spill in game one of his career, and then today much broader than that, like one of the key

themes of part two of that was this Jerry Krause Michael Jordan's conflict about limiting him on minutes a minutes restriction and that's not even close to being the impression. To the facts show that it's not even close to being the uh, anywhere near the impression they were given. So it's it. Then it makes me wonder, like, how many other things in there might I need to question? And by the way, you know, maybe did Scottie Pippott really was he really a manager at first? In Central

hard something? I'm just throwing out some stuff. There's other stuff in there, uh that I didn't find on my own. There's there's one other detail that we just found about out about that is clearly not right either. Um, maybe I'll bring it up on a subsequent show. So it's not like, but this is a big thing for me. So anyway, I sheepishly pointed out. I don't know how you feel about me pointing pointing it out, Danny, but

I feel like I had to. It's kind of one of those things where it's like, no, don't tell me, don't tell me. But at the same time, you need to know because when you're watching these documentaries, whatever it may be, you assume that everything is factual considering they're studying just you know, this one subject. So uh, it makes sense that it would be something that you would really want to search and find out about and more

stuff continuing on, considering we have eight more episodes. So uh, it's not enough to where me personally you pointing it out. It doesn't really ruin anything for me. It's just kind of something where it's like, oh, I'm surprised it went that direction. If anything, it's not more that it, you know, ruined his character or something. It didn't really alter anything I assume in anybody's minds. But like I said, it's interesting to note and it deserves to be factual. So well, yeah,

let's let's put it this way. Am I still gonna watch parts three through ten? Of course i am. I enjoyed the hell out of it, and I'm an m J. I mean, this is the thing and it needs to be stressed. No one was more of an m J freak than I was in junior high and high school and beyond, um, nothing was as big as college hoops. I mean, really, when you grow up in the DC area, it's the Redskins during the fall, and then it's basketball.

It's college basketball, it's high school basketball. I went to basketball camp with all the DC greats who were like my coaches and went on to college basketball fame. So like, no one was more Jordan than a CC obsessed that we were so anyway, uh, and then into his NBA career, So I just felt the need to point out, but yeah, is it gonna take me away from watching it? Of

course not. But you know, um, just to set the game with Jill Alexander Gill Alexander uh my next guest and I first met out of all places, randomly Peer thirty nine in San Francisco back in n I believe he was on the way to the Winter Olympics in Nagano, Japan, And he told me a story that day that when he used to watch his beloved Chicago Bulls and his friend Michael Jordans, sometimes his then newlywed wife would steal the remote, turn off the TV, stand in front of

the TV and say, tell me you love me more than Michael Jordan's. And after about three attempts at this, uh, he would finally relent and say, okay, okay, I love you more than I love Scottie Pippen. Now give me back the remote, Ladies and gentlemen, half the p t I crew along with Tony Cordeiser. It's the great Michael Wilbon. Good morning, Michael, Good morning. How do you remember this stuff? How do you remember? Promise? I never forgot that story.

I I never forgot out that. I'm hoping to see if we can coax uh one of your favorite Jordan's stories out of you. Uh coming up here, But first, um, you know it occurs to me. You just wrote this piece at at The Undefeated Undefeated dot com. For those who don't know, it's called The Last Dance, revealing a Michael Jordan You've never seen before. Among the details in there. You talked about how you would have named your son Jordan had it not been for your brother beating it

to meeting you to his son. But was there anything I guess what's interesting to me is was there anything in the first two episodes of this because you said you resisted the urge to watch more than the two. Was there anything in the first two episodes where someone who knows Michael as well as you do and follows that team as closely as you do that surprised you

or that you learned. Sure, I mean, you were not around for the flights, team flights and locker room things and and and you know, sort of private meetings and discussions and and you know, even if you're sort of previewed some of it, you know you got a lot of moving proNTs with with twelve members on team, And so I had no idea that Jerry kraus Han told Phil Jackson if you go eighty two and oh you're

still not coming back. I mean, that's the that's a that's a stunner when you talk about breaking up a team to the general manager. Has that much animosity directed toward a coach who winds up winning when it felt when eleven rings as a coach and too as a player. Um, I mean, Jerry Krauss is not in Phil Jackson's class when it comes to just sort of basketball royalty. But yet he felt the need to tell Phil Jackson that,

so that that was one of them. Um Michael revealing that he walked into a room with his Thean teammates and just found like a drug den, which is not necessarily shocking when you realize sort of what the NBA was and was thought to be. Um in the earlier mid eighties and before the league, you know, just had to ride herd on people before some of the star players that don't No, no, you're not doing that to my career. But you know, those are two of the

things that jumped out at me as well. No, I I I this, and I don't have any uh pretense of knowing everything that's going to be in this documentary As a magic I'm looking forward to seeing all the things they don't know. Were you right now? I grew up a Washington Bullets fan. I grew up reading you in the Washington Post. One of the things I was mentioning the other day on the show I remember his very first Michael Jordan's very first game as a Chicago

Bull was against the Bullets. We even ran the video of this the other day. First half, first dunk attempt, he gets caught up over Jeff Ruland and he lands on his back. He's on the ground for thirty seconds. Do you remember that as as vividly as I do? And yeah, not at all, because because they must the game was in Chicago. Yeah it must have been. But I know I couldn't have told you that. I couldn't

have told you that. I remember I remember calling my brother, who's his season ticket holder Bull season to get older even now, and I remember calling him like I would every night, essentially every game of Jordan's rookie season. Because it was no league pass, you could see the local market games. I don't even know where I was in terms of what I might have been covering, but I might have been. But I know I didn't see his first game because I recalling my brothers saying what did

Jordan do? And that was the sentence that hundreds of thousands of Chicago and spoke. You know, particularly those first those years in which there was no league past. You couldn't get the games on television unless they were the local the local games and or the local game that night. And I think he said he scored twenty three points. I think I remember that. We've checked that. But but no, I didn't know it was against the Bullets. Stop about that. Yeah,

that's pretty good, you know. I didn't realize it was again and ruling, So that would have been November of eighty four, so ruling. I guess Mahorn was one of the teams. Well, no more, I wouldn't have been on that team yet. Um, I think around heah or maybe he or maybe you're right, maybe he was. I'm not sure. I didn't see him on the court, so maybe you're right. Yeah, I think that's interesting. That's the only um the only

other thing that was sort of surprising to me. I was mentioning yesterday the whole you know, I was like, what, what didn't I remember that whole fourteen minute limit thing. I looked at the box gas like that never happened. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I remember that. The people. Look. That was

the first bit of friction between Michael and management. UM in this case, Jerry Krauss, I guess, yeah, I guess Cross was already there by them because Jordan's you know, had gone down in North Carolina, as he revealed, and people knew about that he was playing pickup games down there.

But it was a whole different time in terms of monitoring, you know, and players being sort of on their own, and the constraints at the it on today and the sort of watchful nature of of of front offices and players relative to nineteen mid nineteen eighties, and so, yeah, I didn't remember the specific game where John Packling hits the free throw. I mean, it's the jumper to give him a win. But it was so funny that Michael,

of course remembers everything. He remembers everything. He remembers every possession of every game, it seems his entire life. And the footage to see that and to see how frustrated he was squirming on the bench, that was again it spoke to the first bit of friction between Michael and the Bulls front office, and it was there would be a lot of friction by the time we got aft to the last dance, you know, you know, fifteen years later. Yeah,

it was. It was not exactly factually accurate, cause they make gave the impression that had happened throughout the rest of the year. It did happen for a few games, and who knows, maybe it did happen in key situations. What happened when he came back when he came back from the foot injury that he missed sixties seven games. Yeah, I know it came back from from the foot injury.

It did happen all of those games. It happened when they put him on a minute limit when he came back from that injury, and he didn't go after the minutes limit until he got to Boston Guard and had those great games in the playoffs. Oh, because you know what, Michael, I looked at the box scores from eight from the late eighty six season, because that was the end of his second season, right, yeah, six, So the end of the you know, the end of that season. Uh, and

the box scores tell something very differently. That was sort of a discrepancy that a lot of people are talking about, Like, I don't know if it was that long. So anyway, just a point that, uh, we were researching and then and there seemed to be a discrepancy. I have to ask you this out of contractual obligation because most of

my audience is a gambling audience. To those conspiracy theorists who would say his absence between the two three peats was because of something gambling related, you would say there was never any people could have hunches all they want, Um, there was never you know, if there's something, there was anything to that, Um, there would have been more smoke and ultimately some fire. And it was it just wasn't.

Um they just wasn't. I mean people, people poked at and prodded at that topic wow for years and particularly while he was playing baseball, and it wasn't it just it would have come out? Um? I just I don't see where I mean. People. David Stern was interviewed a million times, Michael a million times, and I can't wait till again. I have not watched in advance. I didn't want to watch this watch this series that way. I'm interested to see how that's addressed. But there's just what's

what's to it? Like, wouldn't we know more by now? Doesn't everything wind up coming out and something like that? If it's conspiracy, that means more than two people know about it and one't you even know about it just as a journal was. I find that people find out about it and I just to me, you know, it's it's a sexy topic, Gil, but there just doesn't see them be any there there to me, never has been.

There's no there there. I would agree with you talking to Michael Wilbon, of course, co host the p t I with Tony Corneiser at espn UM final two minutes here Michael. Then the final question for me to you would be, with all of your intimate knowledge of Michael, as close as you are to him, is there a brief story or something a detail that most of us would not know about him that you'd like to share? Well, goodness that about detail. I mean there's a million stories

and how much time we have. One of my favorite stories because we're talking about Washington and you being from DC and we worked in there. You know it's still living there. I'll tell you the story about him coming back to Washington his first game back in d C after the unretired, and so it's just before the double Nickel game he can he's in Washington to play the Bullets and it's shooting around about eleven o'clock of the morning and a limousine pulls up in front of old

capitals and which I'm share you remember well. And there's an attache or somebody in a long stretched limousine, the kind of car you don't even see anymore in the culture. And the limousine pulls up, an attach shape gets out and says to uh, someone in you know where? Can I speak to Tim Hallam? And Tim Hallam was the director of Bull's public relations where he ever and it's

still and Term said, yeah, what's what's going on? And he says, I'm I'm with the Crown Princess of any names of the country and she would like to meet Mr Jordan's. And there's the window goes down as a woman in the back of the car of the limousine being driven with a tiara, and she looks every bit the part of some the crown princess of something or somewhere and howums is what? And the guys says repeats, I am so so and this is the crown Princess

of whatever, and she'd like to meet Mr Jordan's. And Allen looks at this guy with this day, buddy, there's a crown princess in every city that's great, Michael, thank you so much. We we gotta run. That's phenomenal, but you too. Take care. Michael Wilbon. The name of the piece of the last dance reveals of Michael Jordan you've never seen before. The undefeated Dot come back to a numbers game with you know Alexander. My next guest enjoyed the motion picture Romancing the Stone so so much that

he named his podcast Rejecting the Screen. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Adam Stanco. Good morning, Adam, Good morning Gil. Are we doing very well? Adam, I don't know. I just popped in my head. That's what it sounded like, rejecting the screen, which you do with Noah Kaslov. One great basketball guest after another. Vin Baker on tap for the next one. Is that true? Yeah, Thursday will be Vin Baker.

We've had a pretty good string recently, Adam or and had some traction on his He had some great Kobe stories. We've that's a really good guest. But but I'm expecting some great things from Vin Baker. It should be good. Yeah, who had a very interesting trajectory to his career. Let's put it that way. You can follow Adam at Nay

Smith Lives Adam. Of course I have you on because parts three and four of the ESPN docuseries The Last Dance Fronticling uh the final of Michael Jordan's Scottie Pippen in Chicago Bulls six Championship years Um Parts three and four aired last night. And the first thing I just want to ask you about. I don't know if you have this experience because I'm just trying to get it some things that others might not have. Maybe others have. You're watching Are you watching it with your wife? Let

me just ask you that, yes, I am. I am, okay, whether you're watching wife, you're all I'm gonna say, it's dad context my wife. It's not only just a big sports fan, but also was a feature producer, did did Um productions on Outside Lines and uh E's sixty, so she she has done some some long form features to them. So she has a greater understanding of storytelling and and and sports and sort of the history of sports better than I'm probably I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it there.

She has a good understanding things. Let's just say some great contextual knowledge. Have some great contextual knowledge here may to use your head mid sentence, Adam, I see what you did there. Um, all right, So this might not be the best question for you since she has a background. On the other hand, it might be the best question for you, specifically because of the storytelling aspect. For those that you may be watching this with. I'm wondering if

others have this experience. I'm watching it with my girl, who isn't like your wife and doesn't have a background in sports like that, but loves watching sports documentaries. She had She's having particular trouble following like the Rodman episode, specifically right episode three, the first of the two last night, how they bounced back and forth in time. For those of us who love sports or around during those years, we get what they're doing going back and forward in time.

But I had to constantly sort of reset it for her over and over and let her know, Okay, now we're here, now we're back here. Did did you and or your wife uh have that same experience at all? You know, it's that's a great question, uh, most notably because we actually talked about that stuff anyway, Because we're both in television production, know a lot of people that that put together documentaries and so it's actually something we'll

talk about it. It's interesting because we always discussed the idea of that, and if you don't keep things in straight chronological order, it's really difficult to tell a story that way because you can lose the audience really quick, especially when it's not just known and this is now some time has passed, so guilt for you and I. Whereas a lot of these memories like instantly it's oh, that's young Jordan's or that's that's the David Corsine, that's

that's before Rodman, what have you. Those things, well, they're at in our mind are different. I think for for the viewer it is, you know, especially younger viewers or or people that weren't around or that didn't mean as much to them. I think it's a different experience and I always think the difficult thing to do period, but certainly with this one, it's it's tricky and they're and

they're playing that game. And at the same time, as a filmmaker, I understand the mindset what they're doing because you know, their access footage is with you know, season and so for them it's that's that's really the gold for them. But they have to provide context all throughout, especially if you're gonna extend that into a ten part series, Uh, for ten hours of coverage, you need to make sure you're giving people context. So this is why this matter.

This is the history with the Pistons. This is the importance of Rodman's background. But I think playing around with timelines is awful tough, and I do think that, yeah, it's tricky and and there are times though even still, I mean, my wife will will say what was you know, what was that or what was going on? And you know,

there again has to be provided some context. Uh. And also I think the other thing is guilt for me, at least the interesting part, even just following along on Twitter, I'm shocked at how much people didn't know, and so all these things people on Twitter that has made the Lebron over Jordan armament especially, they're the one thing, Oh I didn't realize, Oh wow that game he was really kid Boston in the playoffs. You know it's here. I'm like, Mike,

you'd have seen that clip a hundred times. You didn't watch come fly with me? You talk, you know, So dude, I don't know why that bothers me so much, but like when when they show like Trey Young's tweet on Sports Center afterwards talking about MJM. Just like I don't want to hear what your trade. Young won't even around stop, but I couldn't care less what he has to say about this. I don't want that bothers me so much.

But just and you're so right about that, Just to sort of put it in another context, like I remember everywhere I was during every Super Bowl, Like I remember whose house I was at, I remember where the TV was, I remember if I wasn't watching, you know, like I just remember every single Super Bowl, who won, and where I was at the time, just because it's so indelible as a sports fan in in my mind. There's very few other things I remember that vividly as to where

exactly I was. But when Michael Jordan did all of these individual things, I remember exactly where I was. The shot over Elo in college, was going out that night, uh to a certain place. I remember exactly how I ran out to go out right after that. Uh. The shot in the finals against the Lakers where he puts it up with one hand and lays it in with the left. I remember where I was. You know that's

how amazing this guy was. Yeah. Yeah, And and Gil, what's really interesting about about me saying that is like, again, these these memories are so vivid. I mean, when I was growing up, it was I was in a huge Michael um I was a huge Issaiah Thomas fan, and I was a fan of those Pistons teams. My brother

was a big Bulls fan. And so for us there it was a great understanding of how the Bulls just could not get over the pump with the Pistons, and knowing that the Pistons had just been through that same trial by fire experience in the playoffs against the Celtics, that the Pistons just could not beat the Celtics, and

it's understanding that contextually is huge. And also so for us, a lot of that stuff is stuff we've seen and it's like, oh wow, look at this, and it's I haven't seen this footage in a few years, but I had always seen it. But what's wild is it's it's the stuff that they've added and the layers they've added

that no one has ever seen before. Michael Jordan's you know, on on a team plane with Scottie Barrell and talking of the joking about Scott Barrell being an alcoholic like humanizers Mike in a way that I don't think we've

seen before. And those are the moments, so that in a way we're talking about, you know, referencing, having people actually come out and talk about the Rang Harper stuff and Saint Hey, he should have been the one guarding Jordan, although we we've sort of heard those things before, but it's it's how Ron Harper reacted. It was so great, Adam, let me put a bookmark in that will come right back talk more about this the Last Dance Parts three and four, so much talking about and since he brings

up Isaiah, let's start there. Next on a numbers game at Visa with Adam Stanko right here Series Sex and Channel two oh four. Welcome back to a Numbers Game with Jill, Alexander Gill, Alexander, Adam Stanko from the Rejecting the Screen podcast TALKINGT thirties, the Last Dance, the Final Leader of the Uh Michael Jordan's Scotty Pip in Chicago Bulls Championship Round the sixth of the six seasons. You mentioned the Scotty barrel detail from last night Scotty Burrell's

been dreading that footage for twenty years. Uh. And then the Ron Harper reaction to Lenny wilkins decision to put Craig Elo on Jordan in that final sequence of the Calves series in nine. Uh yeah, okay, f that bs was Ron Harper's quote, um, you know, and there's there's always there's always things. Also from the first part where

I was like, Okay, what didn't I remember? This is the other trick that that time does to you, and the first couple episodes, I was like, all right, I didn't know Scottie Pippen was a manager when he first started at Central Arkansas. And the other detail I didn't remember was the four team in a time limit, which turns out there was a reason I didn't remember that because it actually didn't happen the way they said it did. Uh.

Last night. For me, it was two things also. One was I didn't remember that when this that when the Bulls finally beat the Pistons, it was by sweep. I did not recall that detail. Adam, Yeah, it's it's interesting. And again I think part of that just because we think about again how art it was for the Bulls to get over them. We think about these grueling series and the Jordan rules, you know, Sam Smith's book and

all that. But you think back to that time and we think about it as they were never going to beat the Pistons. So you think when they finally do to me some long grueling series and instead yes, all of a sudden, It's funny how how memory plays tricks like that that that it was. It was, as you point out, a sweet what was the other one for you? Gil? The other one was and and this is the one

I'm more embarrassed by. I You know, listen, I remember the Scottie Pippen thing in the in the year between Jordan's three peats where he refused to you know, Phil Jackson wasn't setting up the play for him, and so he didn't go in the game, and then Cucko chits the game winner against the Knicks. I remember details of Pippen's career pretty much left and right, but I had no recollection that that game seven, the year before the Bulls finally broke through against the Pistons, was the Scottie

Pippen Migrain game. I have no memory of that whatsoever. Yeah, it's that's funny, should they you should say that it's and in a weird way for me, some of these have uh you know, melded together and now the documentary was like, Okay, that's right, that's how that happened. You know. There there's start of these moments that are still brought

up in time or more. And again I think it goes back to like us having a different understanding being not to say a bit older probably, but but this younger generation of not understanding any of this stuff and

and not getting context. And of course the hard part with all this is is that you need, like you need the full picture to understand who MJ is and and what I'm really glad about with the documentary is not so much is not this argument about the greatest of all time, which is part of the reason Jordan

released this. I mean this footage I had are about twenty years ago from people who were working in NBA Entertainment and they were telling me about footage they had logged and oh this crazy behind the scenes stuff and all this and one day they're gonna release And it was always sort of talked about, and you didn't think you'd ever'd ever see the light of day. It was sort of this project that I didn't kind of believe, uh, you know, like rumors about certain NBA players that we hear,

we got I don't know if that's true. And it all of a sudden you get verified one day and and you know, in the remote Shelburne article he talked about that, it was. It was released after you know, um two thousand and sixteen. He was like, all right, it's time, you know, Jordan finally agreed to it. It was, it was he had the keys to this. But the interesting thing isn't so much for me about the goat argument, because I don't think I don't have an argument there.

I think Jordan is the greatest of all time. I think what's great because I love looking back and getting a sense of what was going on in that era and at that time, and I think just an appreciation of sort of a guy's career and what they went through and and just again it's their stories now I remember them, and I think that's you know, partly how

memory works. I remember them as these you know, oh, it's a Migraine game, or uh, Dennis Rodman kicks the cameraman, you know, you have these moments if you remember the push off for the shots. But again putting some things into perspective, I think it's interesting and even that Ron Harper thing, just just go back for a moment of that that game five I was I was watching last night after the documentary, I went pulled up that game. It was interesting. Ron Harper was on Jordan the entire

time and there was no question he was. He was a better defender at that time. Ron Harper's superior athlete, great leaper was giving Jordan. I know, he wasn't giving him fits by any by any stretch, but it was like the you know, it's like the Bill Buckner game where all of a sudden people were like Bill Buckner shouldn't even been in the game. It was the same thing. There's no reason to think Craig Elo, as supposed to Ron Harper should have been guarding jordans on on that shot.

And also Jordan had shot really poorly from the mid range, like throughout that game he was missing everything, so that also made the shot even even more spectacular. But yeah, so it's for me, a lot of this stuff has been really cool to go back and and then also having other contextual knowledge. Like I'm reading Phil Jackson's book Levin Rings, and in it he provide some other context

to the Jerry Krauss relationship. Jerry Krauss wanted to draft Phil Jackson out of college when when Phil jacksons in North Dakota and Phil Jackson was drafted by the Knicks in the second round, Jerry Krauss thought he'd last till the third round. Jerry Krauss was the head scout for the bullet and he said for years Jerry Cross was kicking himself that Phil Jackson, that he didn't move up, that they didn't go up and get him in the

second round. They thought for sure he'd last to the third round when they actually had you know, more than two rounds back then for the NBA draft. And it's just really interesting that that's where their relationship even started. And then Krauss always had his eye on Phil Jackson as a coach and of course brought him in his assistant and the rest is history. But uh, providing some of them other contexts, I think he's always really important for the full, full, full story, at least as far

as I'm concerned. Yeah, I think you're right, and Jerry Krauss gets murdered in this in this documentary, and honestly, he deserves a lot of credit for building that team around Jordan. By the way, one of the great moments of the Docks so far arey crowds dancing in that bus after they beat the Pistons, uh while the while they played, and I love the music they chose. They they chose cool Moo d Uh How you Like Me Now, which was really the the the hit that put coolmo

dal on the map for real. Uh. And I was so charged up during that scene because of that music. We're talking to Adam Stanko from the Rejecting the Screen podcast um. By the way, also for basketball heads, because I know you're you're super into it as well. I talked about that Kauai shot against the six Or's a couple of years ago for the Raptors on their way

to the NBA Championship. How you could have done We could have done two segments on that shot alone, how the ball looked like it changed in mid air before it bounced four times on the rim. That shot Jordan hit over Elo, like if you really break that shot down, he had to like take that ball moved in his hand. He had to almost re grip it. Just it just amazing. And we got a different angle from the documentary of

it too, which I thought was interesting. Before we go here him Isaiah specifically, And and I was listening to something Reggie Miller was on with Dan Patrick last week, I believe, And Reggie Miller was on for about twenty minutes talking about that. You know, Dan Patrick hasn't if you like ran into Michael today, what would you do? And Reggie Miller was like, I might punch him in the face. But Reggie Miller is really thoughtful and really deliberate,

chooses words very carefully. What he meant by that was just it hurts him so much. He loved the competition. He knows Michael's the greatest. I know, you're an Isaiah guy, but I'm with Mike on this, Like, come on, man, you're still defending your actions back then. I don't buy into that whole Oh, the Celtics did this, so we did at things. How about the fact that Jordan and

them shook your hands both years? Oh, listen, I mean it's indefensible and and it's it's really sad because in a way, not only was it a bad mark on on Isaiah's career, and but also at a time it actually really hurt him. I mean, you have to keep in mind that that before it left a sour tastes in the mouth because of the rivalry with Jordan and Pippen, and Jordan and Pippen actively kept Isaiah Thomas off the Dream Team in two, which I think is just one

of the great travesties of all time. I mean, we forget that Isaiah Thomas one back to back titles in an error when Bird, Magic and Jordan were all playing Jordan in the prime of his career. So you know, I think if you there's a player in history that's been under appreciated, I think east Isaiah and and in

large part because of that one action. And again it's not just because he did that, but that that idea that he's been defending it for so long, and and it's weird because it has always been sort of a paradox in that on one hand, he sat down did the interview for this documentary, and I think that's remarkable that he's doing it. I mean, we haven't heard from

Joe Dumars yet. I'm sure he said no, A lot of the guys on the Pistons may have said, no, Isaiah, who had no real reason to do this, has done so. He does the interview, so in a way you give him credit, like, wow, Isaiah that he talked about MJ and and and also throughout his throughout his life. I mean, Isaiah has always talked about how much MJ meant to

the city of Chicago. Um and also you know that he was the best player in the n b A and and his greatness even though Isaiah got him, I mean, Isaiah had beaten him for years, and Isaiah and he grew up in Chicago. There was there's a lot of

reason for their resentment and animosity. But it's weird because at my point being that Isaiah has has done so many of the right things, and then you come out and during that interview instead of saying we shouldn't have done it, other teams have done it to us and we at the time thought we could have done it. But like, you know what, I really regret that you say that it's over and instead it becomes again it's add more fuel to the fire. And then now people

even now are like, why did Iaiah do that? Like that was a long time ago. But but if Isaiah is still defending it, then people ever right to stay that. Yeah, but it's because it's like he's still playing to his old teammates, like he doesn't want to lose cred with them. It's like, dude, we're it's for God's sakes, like let that go. Um. I could do two hours with you on this and maybe we'll have you back in subsequent weeks. Not maybe we will have you back in subsequent weeks

to do this as a recap last thing. And I only have ten seconds here for the answer. But am I right to beat the fourteen minute limit? Thing? Never happened? Horse like A, I don't want to be that one guy who's doing it. I'm right to say that if you're a documentarian, document correctly. Yeah. Absolutely, And we discussed this on our podcast, and I'll just say quickly that

it won'tn't just fourteen minutes. It kept rising and it was completely handled partly in the documentary that that information was just glad I'm be incorrect. Thank you, Adam, Adam Staco rejecting the screen. Adam, take care of your kids, enjoy man, be safe right here on a number Back to Numbers game with Jill Alexander. Let's talk the Last Dance Man for thirty documentary. We're gonna get into some of the betting lines here momentarily with Blake Mahoney from

Sports Arts History dot Com. I was up late at night researching these betting lines for the Jordan years. But I gotta highlight this once again. And I don't really mean the word highlight. I probably should say low light.

As you know, Danny. Uh. Last week I was on the show and I was I had Michael Wilbon on Adam Steako to talk about this, and I pointed out before all of that, I'm like this whole deal in parts one and two where Jordan's the impression we were given is that Jordan's, you know, had this fourteen minute limit for the rest of the season when he returned from injury in his second season. The five excuse me the six NBA season was just nonsense and we could throw up the tweet that I that I put out.

I went back and I logged all the games his minutes. Uh. Towards the end of the eighties six season, he had a fourteen minute cap. Never I mean, maybe the first couple of games, right when he came back in mid March, thirteen minutes and fourteen minutes. But then it was this is all on the left side of the screen fifteen sixteen sixty seven, and then twenty nine for the for the season ender in the regular season, and it was

of course non exist in the playoffs. But the impression given in the documentary was that this was a limit that was killing Jordan for the rest of the regular season, and that it was a huge source of conflict between him and Jerry Krause. I get it, he still hated Jerry Krause. But you're doing a documentary, you're a documentarian. You need to give the correct impression. This was they devoted in a huge portion of of that of those two episodes that at night to this supposed four team

minute limit. Didn't happen that way. Uh. The other thing I sent you there was also they flashed up some standings. They had to apologize for this where they flashed up standings from an early Jordan's season and if you look above the bulls you see wizards and not bullets listed and they actually had to come out and apologize there. It is right there. They were showing the Bulls record their final record in that eighty six Jordan's second season. Yeah,

the Wizards didn't exist. Number six seed, right, there was the Bullets. So they had to apologize for that. And then you know, I'm thinking I was joking Janey Danny. I was like, oh, watch them make errors here in parts three and four. You know this whole thing about Jordan's going to Vegas to get Rodman out of bed for this vacation he needed. He never went to Vegas. Sports Illustrated had to write a piece about it yesterday

and the director, director Jason Hare, had to admit. He's like, yeah, um, I'm sorry we gave that impression. I'm paraphrasing, but he actually came out and said, yeah, um, didn't really happen that way. I'm sorry that it was a little misleading. I'll get you the exact quote a minute. But it's just I mean, it's a documentary, daddy, I mean, and I keep asking people and folks are starting to come to my side. It's like, you gotta get this right. Come on. This isn't a two hour live radio show

where we make mistakes every day. This is something that lives in perpetuity. You're absolutely right. I mean when you're watching these documentaries, and this one specifically with so much you know, excitement around it and everybody waiting for yeah, the hype around it, and we're expecting everything to pretty much be factual. And that's what you expect out of any documentary you watch, specifically this one with so much,

like you said, hype around it. So when they're kind of stretching and fabricating these stories, yeah, it tarnishes it a little bit. You get the gist of it overall, what they're aiming towards, but they're really just expanding it to try to fit this narrative that they're trying to push so much. And look, it happens all the time, but it shouldn't be a constant thing, especially with this documentary.

When when I was watching it, at least to Gil, I don't know if you felt this way, but when they were talking about Rodman going to Vegas, it seemed like when they were like Jordan's going to get him out of AGAs, it was like, no way, like Jordan's just like randomly, also in the season flew to Vegas, it seemed a little bit too good to be true. Yeah. And by the way, just to clarify, it didn't come out of Jordan's mouth, here's the quote from Jason here.

I wish that we were better at identifying to people that Michael didn't get on a plane and go to Vegas to get him, but he did grab grab him out of bed. Uh. Listen for those three or four people on on Twitter who were like I, I didn't think he went to Vegas. I rewatched it last night. It's between episodes three and four. They totally gave the wrong impression betting lines. Next on a numbers game at Visa from the Jordan Ears, Welcome back to a numbers

game with Jill Alexander. It is a numbers game, Gil Alexander live from San Francisco. So yesterday, Uh, you know, we've all been watching The Last Dance thirty for thirty doc and I want to stress that, uh, you know, while I'm pointing out some of the fake outs, the misleading stuf from the documentary, which kind of you know,

diminishes it for me, it does. Uh, it's still fascinating to watch and we all still remember, those of us of a certain age still remember living through the Jordan ears, and I want to give credit to Chad Rants on Twitter who gave me the idea yesterday. He was like, Hey, you think you can UH tell us about these betting lines on some of these series and the games. And I'm like, well, I can't, but that's a great idea. I'll have to research it. And he suggested having Chrissy

your viney or Jimmy on. Chrissy chimed in because I did ask him about it, uh, and from a bett from the sports book perspective, he said, you're talking about Chris andrews Now, I remember the two Utah series, talking about the two UH finals, the last two championship finals, and the Portland series, which was the one before that, so basically the final three beat He said they were huge decisions in the book's favor where he was perched and UH. He was basically saying, pretty sure we needed

the Bulls all the time. We needed them versus the Lakers in the first championship to overall, Jordan was fine with him. He said he sort of felt the rise of Jordan's before the curve and UH and adjusted accordingly. So that was Chris's reaction to it. And then I remembered.

Uh you know, I've had this gentleman on many times on the show, several times, most prominently, I think most recently when we did our whole Best of the Decade twenty nine team, where we went through every sport, the best sports betting teams of each decade and every sport. His name is Blake Mahoney. He's from Sports Betting Odds dot com, and we welcome him in now to help us through this. Good morning to you, Blake, Good morning. How are you doing. I'm doing great man. You're at

s O History by the way, on Twitter. People should know so I because I had from yesterday. You go ahead, go ahead. Oh sorry, that that's Sports Odds History dot com. By the way, Sports Odds History dot com. We should uh yeah on on Twitter though, what's your Twitter handle? You got? Uh? Oh history at s O History. I'm sorry if I misspoke there. All right, So I got most of these So I I looked all of this up myself last night. But I want to help. I want to if you wonder if you could help us

fill in the blanks, because your site is fabulous. So let's start and we're just gonna highlight through the years here. Oh it's phenomenal, dude. I recommend it to anybody who wants to look at historical betting odds. Uh. It's about as great of a treasure of that as you can find anywhere. So let's start with year two. If we could blake the famous series that was highlighted in the thirty thirty The Last Dance doc. When Jordan's in his second year, he came back from injury, um he played

the last stretch of games in the regular season. They ended up playing the Celtics. Bulls were in eight seed, Celtics were a one seed, and they highlighted that sixty three point game from Jordan's his biggest output ever in the playoffs Game two of that series. What was the line in that game? Just out of curiosity, right, So

there are fourteen point underdogs for that game. They were coming off Game one where they lost by nineteen and they were thirteen a half point on the dogs, and in game one they bumped it up just a bit for Game two, I see, and ended up losing Game two and overtime. So the Bulls backers got the money, but Bulls couldn't win any of those games in that series. So let me go through and this is what I found,

and we'll we'll fill in the blanks here. Let's fast forward to the years where the Bulls couldn't get past the Pistons. So eight eight they play the Pistons in the Eastern Conference semis UM. They end up losing that series to Detroit four games to one. What was the series price in that series, right, So Detroit was while Chicago was plus two. Okay, so the year, the first year they met, this is the first of three years

where Detroit beat Chicago in the playoffs. This is the first year eight Eastern Conference semis Detroit minus two forty as a number two seed, Chicago plus two hundred as a three seed in the East, and Detroit beat him in five. Then, even more famously, we go to um that series, of course, that was highlighted in the documentary the famous opening round series against the Cleveland Cavaliers in which Jordan hit the game winner over Craig Ilo in

the deciding Game five at Cleveland. What was the spread in that game? Do we have that the Bulls were? Right? Yeah,

the Bulls were plus six going into that game. So for the series they were We're plus three fifty, and if you remember, Cleveland was hifty seven and twenty five that year, and they had actually the second best thread record in the Eastern Conference and the only reason they were the three seed was because of the NBA seeding rules where the other division winner automatically was the two seed. And even of the Nicks were thirty that year. Oh,

very cool, good note. So so the Bulls again plus three fifty in that series against the Calves, which they end up winning on in five on that Jordan buzzer beater over Elo. They were actually plus three fifty in the next series, the Eastern Conference semis I believe it was against the Knicks. They won that as well. And then what were they in the Eastern Conference finals when Detroit beats them again plus four fifty plus four fifty, that's eight nine. So this is the Eastern Conference Finals.

The Bulls were plus four fifty as the six Detroit number one seed in the East, and minus six fifty. Detroit beat him in six games. And then the third of the three seasons in which Detroit gets the best of the Bulls, this also in the Eastern Conference Finals. What was that series price Chicago was plus Detroit mins to eight and Detroit beat them in seven. Do you remember, because that game seven highlighted in the documentary known as the Scottie Pippen Migraine Game. Do you remember do you

have a note of what the line was for game seven? Specifically? Right, the Bulls were seven and seven a half point underdogs, seven and a half point underdogs. Do we do we know if they covered? I didn't check this part. Do we know if they covered at all? They lost by nineteen? So yeah, they did not covered. That's right, that's right. They got crushed in that game. Pip the Pip in migrand game. So really what's interesting is the run up

to the championships. They were, you know, pretty sizeable dogs in most of these and and again they hadn't won a championship yet. This was still the rise of the Bulls. But to know that they were, you know, as big as plus four fifty dogs in the nine Eastern Conference Finals and then in Game seven of the even though they were only plus two twenty in that series, they

were still huge dogs in Game seven. It's like they still weren't you know, people, people who lived through it remembered at that time, how you know, uh, you know, uh menacing the bad boys were how they were at this point, uh, defending champs and were defending champs and really the bulls, especially without Pippen. Um, although I don't know if we really knew that Pippen wasn't playing in

that game till late, you know. So that's an interesting line because I'm not sure you know that's that's obviously the uh you know, I'm getting these lines from from uh newspaper archives, so that's kind of the morning line. So it could be that that line might have changedly not the game time, if there was news about Pippen's migraine, I would imagine it did. We'll come back. We'll give you all the lines of all the championship years and the years in between the two three beats. Those are

interesting as well. We're Scottie. Pippen ruled the roots coming back on the numbers game at Visa these sports Betting Now, Welcome back to a numbers game with Gill Alexander. It's Gill Alexander. Blake Mahoney from Sports Odds History dot Com an invaluable resource, Blake I really appreciated. Uh, let's get through these now, these are the championship years the first three pet season, they get to the Eastern Conference Finals. The Pistons had beaten them the previous three years. The

Bulls go out and sweep the Pistons. What was the series price that year when the Bulls were the number one seed? So the Bulls were minus two seventy Pistons plus two ten. Okay, still don't see the Bulls yet as prohibitive favorites at any of these uh. And then in the finals that year they take on the Lakers. We saw this in the documentary. The Lakers ended up winning game one, and then the Bulls beat them in five dominated afterwards, what was the pre flop series price

in the NBA finals bullskers plus one seventy. And you have another great note on your site on November two of that season. So November two, you could have gotten the Bulls to win the championship at as high as seven to one. That's about as high as they got at any point in that season, seven to one. Obviously, they do end up winning the first of six titles with Jordan's Okay, Uh. The Bulls end up in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Knicks, and the Knicks take

him to seven. What was the pre flop on that. I mean, the Bulls probably were huge favorites and they got taken a seven there, right, Yeah, so Chicago that year was sixty seven and Chicago's minus in that Eastern Conference Finals, Wow, and they had to and they had to go seven to eliminate the Knicks. Then in the NBA Finals, that was the Eastern Conference Finals against the Knicks.

NBA Finals they take on the Portland Trailblazers. That was the finals we haven't yet seen in the documentary, but that's the one where Michael just starts hitting threes and you know, puts his hands in the air like I don't know what's happening, looking over at Magic Johnson on the side of the court. They played the Blazers. What were they pre flop series price minus two fifty, minus two fifty, and you could get him. The best price you could get on them that year was back in No.

Number of ninety one at plus two fifty. So again like not all that spectacular and minus two fifty, not that huge of a favorite in the NBA Finals against the Blazers. Then year three of the first three peat in the Eastern Conference Finals, they take on the Knicks.

The Knicks were the number one seed in the Eastern Conference that year, and the Bulls were to correct correct what was the series price, So Chicago was minus one fifty for for that Eastern Conference finals and ended up beating them in six games, beat the Knicks in six and then finals the third of the first three pet

the third title they take Charlie. They take on Charles Barkley and the Phoenix Suns, where Charles Barkley famously said, uh, you know, uh, it's our destiny to win the NBA title and Michael Jordan's shot bag, it's your destiny to get beat by us. And that's exactly what the Bulls did. What were they pre flop series there? Chicago was minus to forty and was with Phoenix having the home court. With Phoenix having home court, that's right, by the way. Best price you get on the Bulls at any point

that season was plus one twenty on November six. By the way, that was one of those strange years where you can get him at plus one twenty in November, but you'd actually get the best price was actually right before the playoffs at three to one, so you can get yeah, right, and the Suns were actually the favorites going into the playoffs, but that obviously flipped by the time they reached the finals. Yeah, all right. Then Jordan

goes off and he plays baseball. Uh and he plays it for he leaves the game of basketball for seventeen months total. Uh four season. He's not around at all. This is Scottie Pippens year. He is uh at NBA All Star. He's a first team NBA All Star, Defensive Player of the Year. He is just by any stretch, one of the dominant players in the NBA that year. We haven't gotten to it in the documentary yet, but yet that's what the Bulls were. Their season win total

was forty four that year. They exceeded it by eleven games, had fifty five wins on that season. But they go to the Eastern Conference finals. Here the Knicks opportunity to play them without Jordan's um And this is the famous Game seven, or this is the famous series, I should say, where Scottie Pippett actually sits refuses to go in the game. The Bulls were up this Game three of this series against the Knicks. The Bulls were actually up by twenty.

They squandered to twenty point lead with one point eight seconds left in the game, Phil Jackson draws up a play for Tony Ku coach Pippin's like forget this, I'm sitting on the bench. Cou coach ends up hitting the game winner to put that series at Nick's two. Bulls won, So the Bulls stayed alive, but they end up losing in seven. What was the pre flop on that series? Chicago was plus one sixty and for Game seven they were four and a half point underdogs. Four and a

half point dogs in game seven. Wow? Yeah, New York minus one eighties Chicago plus one sixty before the series epic seven game series. Uh, then this is the one where Michael comes back in mid March, right before the playoffs, get some tune up games. In fact, his fourth game back, he drops the double nickel at Madison Square Garden. He's

wearing number forty five. But they get to the Eastern Conference Finals, do the Bulls And they take on Penny Hardaway Shack in the Orlando Magic and they get beaten six. Orlando was the number one seed. The Bulls were like the five seed, right because they hadn't had Jordans for most of that year. But were they the betting favorite in that series? Uh? Sorry, yeah, Chicago was mive and that was the for the Eastern Conference. sEH semifinals, So oh, semifinals.

I'm sorry, I said finals, right, semifinals, That's right. Orlando then ended up going on to win the Eastern Conference and then get got swept by the Rockets uh in the NBA finals the year after the Rockets beat the Knicks, who had beaten the Bulls uh in the Pippin year if you will, the non Jordan year, the same series as the O. J. Chase UM the Rockets Knicks series that went seven games. So the Rockets went back to back in Jordan's absence absence literal first year, UM late

return in that second year in between three pieces. So then Jordan's has an offseason to prepare he's back from baseball. It's not just this stretch of games in this is six season. They win seventy two basketball games, seventy and ten and now you see all these pieces were like, yeah, they could have win, they could have won more. They wanted to. Chicago ends up playing the Seattle SuperSonics in the finals. What was the pre flop price on the seventy two win Bulls in that series they were minus

nine fifty two Seattle plus six fifty. There you go, there's the numbers I'm looking for. Minus nine fifty Seattle was plus six fifty coming back, Bulls end up winning it in six. I want to say the Bulls went up three to nothing and then the Sonics one two, and then the Bulls wanted six, but don't hold me

to that. That's just my recollection of it. Best price you could have gotten on the Bulls, by the way, to win the title during that seventy two win season plus three fifty back on November three, so they win their fourth title. They come back in ninety seven. Their season win total after the seventy two win season is sixty four and a half blake. They end up with sixty nine wins. That's all after the seventy two win season. UH In ninety ninety seven, this is the first of

the finals against the Utah Jazz. What was the pre flop series price there? Plus four d wow. Geez all right, and by the way, the best price you could have gotten on the Bulls all that year. After the seventy two wins series seventy two win season where they won UH their fourth title, as you might imagine, wasn't very good plus one hundred on October nineteen ninety six. They end up beating the Jazz in the finals in six

and then the last dance. The season that this ten part docuseries on ESPN is based all around, Even though they're jumping back and forth. UM, this was a season where their win total had dropped to fifty seven and a half. As we have seen on this documentary, Scottie Pippen was hurt. They didn't you know, he had delayed his surgery, so he wasn't gonna play UH for at the very least of the first part of the season. There was even some doubt as to whether or not

he would ever play for the Bulls again. So their season win total was fifty seven and a half. It had been reduced still respect but knowing that Pippin wouldn't be there for at least a good spell of it. They end up winning sixty two games that year. Um. They get to the Eastern Conference finals, though Blake and it's the Indiana Pacers and Reggie learned the Pacers have been waiting for this for a long time, and this was maybe the closest the Bulls ever came to losing.

They beat the during the run, they beat the Pacers in seven. What was their pre file price and what was the game seven line six for the series and then uh eight point favorites for the for game seven and they only end up winted by five, only ended up winning by five. And I want to say, and again this on memory, I think Tony Kukach went off in that game, so like Jordan was still their leading scorer, but I think Kach was their second leading scorer. He hit a bunch of shots in the second half that

were key in that game. And so then after getting by the Pacers and by the way like in the first round of that year, and I hope they continue to highlight this in the documentary, like they were on their last legs, they were old, like they swept the Washington Bullets in the first round. But each of those three games was like a sweat for the Bulls. Um so they get pass past the Pacers. These are conference finals. They played the Jazz again. The Jazz are waiting for

them yet again. This of course the famous year where in game six Jordan and the Bulls win their sixth title on the Jordan push off of Byron Russell. What was the pre flop price there? So uh Utah had home court there, but Chicago was still a slight minus one fifteen favorite. Uh and then right, yeah, minus one fifteen, minus one fifteen I haven't be minus somewhere in that pocket, and the Jazz were justice light dog at plus one

oh five. The best price you could get on the Bulls during the regular season was actually the same price you could get them uh for just before the playoffs plus one forty on Halloween plus one forty just before that postseason. Blake Mahoney at s O History this the site is Sports Betting excuse me, Sports Odds History dot com. Pardon me, Sports Odds History dot com. Blake uh an invaluable resource man. I can't thank you enough. YEA, thank you Blake Mahoney, who I had a ball researching that

stuff last night. Um, and thank you to him for filling in all the blanks. Just phenomenal information. That's how the Bulls were assessed in the betting markets throughout their six championships, in between and before all. Right, now we are post episode five and six of ESPST th docuseries The Last Dance Still to Come Episode seven to ten. But in the week that I was off from work, thought i'd uh get some reaction to five and six and throw this up as a podcast with our buddy

from the Rejecting the Screen podcast, Adam Stanko. What's up, Adam? How are you to talk to you? Man? Yeah? I get to see you man with your city T shirt like it. Of course people listening to the podcast see that, so that's sort of irrelevant. So alright, five and six. I didn't love the episodes, but still nonetheless captivating in its own way because we lived it. We lived through

the Jordan years. What did you think? Yeah, you know, I'll tell you early on in episode five and for refresher for people, it was the all Star stuff and the Kobe Bryant stuff. I was still fascinated by by some of the behind the scenes video that you don't typically get a chance to see. So Jordan talking about how Kobe's basically taking it all on himself and all he cares about is trying to score and go one on one. That's the stuff that's fascinating, and I think

it's it's fascinating for two reasons. One because Jordan hasn't allowed that in the NBA by default hasn't allowed that kind of stuff to come out. Right, we haven't seen that side of Jordan's as much. They they've sort of kept that under lock and key. And also the fact that, like, to me, that's that's the interesting part is like the

stuff that we don't know about already. This a lot of these other storylines that the handshakes stuff with the pistons that's been blown up, Um yeah, sure, the Jordan's rules, um, the Sun Series against Park, like all those kinds of things like we yeah, we remember fondly, I mean you know, or that oh Jordan was need he needed some encouragement to distribute the ball, or that Phil Jackson has an affinity for Native American culture. Those are all things I

knew before stuff. But it's those moments and it's funny actually about the Kobe stuff. Buddy of mine worked at NBA Entertainment during the stretch where they were logging a lot of this footage in the late nineties, and he had told me a story at the time that after the Bulls had played the Sixers, in a game. Uh. The interviewers were asking Jordan's some question about about Iverson, and he gave this great answer. You know, oh, the kids got a lot of talent. I really appreciate his game.

He's the future all this stuff. They get to the locker room and Jordan's is like behind the scenes now and he's like that m F and weed smoker, that kid is a punk whatever, and he's like ripping into high person and like and you will they have a great relation, are they? You know, they have a great relationship now. But like that's what his real thoughts were, and that's what I always found fascinating, was like, yeah, what does Jordan really think about the other guys in

the league? Not what's he going to say to the media. So you know that story you just told, So now we're now we're sort of getting off the actual documentary itself. But the rumor that I heard, and I don't know if this is true or if you've heard this, uh, is that you know, the reason that Jordan ultimately decided to release the footage is because Jason Hair did the Iverson dock and Jordan had been such a fan of

that dock. But I understand that the reason that Iverson is not in this dock is because Jason Hair kind of showed him that footage that you were just talking about, and Iverson was like that that ain't cool and he's

not in it. So he idolized Jordan and he might have this great relationship, but he's not in the dock because of that, because I think Jason Are thought it was like sort of a joke to show may look look at this, and Iverson was like, yeah, if that so, I don't know if that's true, but that's one of the rumors I've heard about this. That's an incredible story.

Well it's fun that then things come full circle because just like when I heard about that at the time from from my friend, it was that that's twenty years ago that I had heard about that, and it was like, oh, okay, there's this footage no one will ever see, you know, it's locked in a vault, like like news crews have

their blooper stuff. But that's been the thing about the Last Dance, and I think that I've I've loved and I've appreciated what what and the challenge that Jason Hare has and trying to get people to understand context and what was going on and what made Jordan's so great and what built the bulls. But the timelines get tricky is he's going back and forth. And I one of the things that I've actually had sort of an issue

with watching is that. And I know they're trying to make you feel as big as possible, but all the times that they're coming in and out of break in and out of commercial break, you know, for those of us that are necessarily in the media business but like to go in and out of break, they're using like celebrity endorsements, and they're telling little stories and oftentimes they're

not even great stories. Those are falling so but yeah, but they but they but they get because there's so much going into the documentary that they sort of become part of it. That I I know that ESPN is trying to sort of separate it and say, hey, before we get to the rest of the last dance, check out what Carrello Anthony had to say when he watched this game against the Knicks or whatever. But it's like it sort of becomes part of the dock and and I think in a way like oversaturates it in a

way with with bad stuff that I don't necessarily need. Yeah, you know, so there's a couple of days you were saying there. I'm trying to remember all but one of them. Last week when you and I talked, I mentioned if you watched this with your wife or your girlfriend, um, which might have come off as sexist son. I hope it didn't. But it's someone who was not as into

Jordan's say as you were. Uh, and and you had to really explain the timeline to them, even I now, I'm starting to get annoyed by the timeline jumps sometimes, which I think you might have intimated right there, but it's like, okay, just and I had to keep explaining. I'm like, okay, well now they're back to two year six champion, you know, the last dance here and and again pressent all by saying, Jason Hare had a on

your mental task. And this is the main thing, because most of my comments during this, just in the attempt to say something different than no one else is saying, have been of this nature of oh, here's what I thought was in a mission, Here's what I thought was like a half truth or misleading, And so I hope it doesn't come across I'm sure inevitably at will that I'm like, oh, you know, terrible, that's not at all

what I mean. What I mean is that we were all so immersed in Jordan's career, especially like you and I who grew up on the East Coast, who grew up in and I always say this in d C. We were right in the middle of big eastern a c C. Country and we were obsessed with Jordan, obsessed

the Letty bias Michael Jordan's years. So you know, some of the things that that came across to me yesterday is most of this audience is a gambling focused audience and so the most of the folks who are listening to this pot are probably gonna be like, wow, I wish they really had fleshed out more of the gambling allegations part of it. And you know, that's where it gets into this whole thing of Jordans had final say on this stuff, right like he had final edittorial control.

So you know, you're not gonna get I mean, you're you're going to get the sanitized version. You're not going to get. Oh, here's another viewpoint that might have been rumored laden or whatever, I happen to believe that, you know, he didn't leave the game because of gambling debts. That's

just my belief. But like I have friends Adam who like, no matter what you tell them, no matter like I had, you know, just earlier in this podcast, Wilbon was on talking about how yeah, it's just there's nothing to it, no matter what you tell them, They're like, no, I don't believe it. I don't believe it. Like there's some

people you just can't convince of anything. Well, and you know what's interesting too, is during the last dances they went went through some of that, it was almost as if the media owes Michael Jordan an apology for how they treated him with those allegations. And what's what's really been the fascinating dynamic to me is someone who knew a lot of what had happened at the time, UM have heard a bunch of stories, people have recounted those stories,

people that I've interviewed, what have you. But what really interesting is that I can now look at it with a different perspective as if, okay, if this happens now to some of the guys now And and I've been sometimes critical of Lebron and some of the other superstars in the league. And I look at it like, man, can you imagine now, if Lebron James there was a check for fifty seven thousand dollars to some shady characters

elin or something slim. I mean, yeah, it's just and it wasn't just him, it was it was other guys that did Jordan had these associations with now and and Jordan was able to just say, like, okay, I learned my lesson. You know, I should try to figure out the guys I'm playing golf with, which First of all, I can't imagine that stopped Jordan in the future. He's gonna force him and he's like, wait, who's this guy? We're not playing with this guy like that. Of course

that didn't happen. I think the big thing that that that does need to be examined was like, at what level? There's no question that that dominated a part of his life. Now, he was such a great athlete that, like addman who could use partying and go out and do that all night long and still it not affects his play. Jordan was able to overcome his you know, all night long

gambling binges and stuff. But that doesn't mean that there wasn't there weren't issues there per se, or that it wasn't an addiction for him, or that you know, certainly the characters he was involved with were that there's there's a lot that went on. I don't. I am a firm believer, and I'd like to say on record, like I do not believe at all that he was gambling

on games or or anything else. And I also do believe what he said that, Like he's so competitive and I love that that quarter the quarter game they were playing like that, it is just the stuff that's just amazing. You see he's about to take the security guards twenty box, Like that's the best part of all. Like it's so nuts. But but like it's his competitive nature. Is that no matter what it's, I'm gonna bet on myself to win. Like that's just that's who he is, like that one

and anyone else I think in human history. But um, but I do think that they they they they missed opportunities to go deeper. And I I don't know if the last four will touch on it at all or not, or if that's just the end of it, that that's

we did the gambling stuff. We can move on. Yeah, it might be the end of it, you know, in along the lines of because you and I were talking about some stuff off air about how we're still fascinated by the the chasm between those that remember it, who are a certain agent, remember the Jordan years, and those

who are young. And you know, I was mentioning earlier on this how on the show, how when I see quotes from Trey Young or all these young ballplayers, it's sort of like, I don't care what they say, Like they didn't live it, they live through those years. Um, But it really is this generational divide that we always here on sports talk radio, who's the best player of

all time? And you were mentioning that story about Lebron, how like when Lebron came back from three one against the Warriors, he said, well, that's it, I'm the greatest of all time. And how Jordan's I think you you couched it. Well, how Jordan's may have had this footage as this sort of guard against if there was ever any question to my legacy at any point during my lifetime, I can always break this out. And maybe that you know, maybe that was part of the trigger of it. I

don't know, Gail. I'll tell you from people that are that worked at MBA Entertainment and those that knew that that was always the story internally, that this footage was being held to when Jordan always knew if it really came down to a conversation about who's the greatest, then that's what's going to happen. He's going to release it. He always has this ten part documentary that's gonna just

change change the game. I don't know if it was at the time they knew it was gonna be in ten parts or what, but that Jordan knew that he always had this library of footage that if there was

ever a question. It's amazing too, because you know, we also grew up not just in Jordan's playing and and seeing him on NBC and all that, and everyone in the media treating him as this this this god like figure, but also there was all the all the other Jordan videos that would come out in books and shows and come fly with me, and we all had the DVDs

and I mean, you know all that stuff. This was in the heyday of like you know, the VHS, tape and DVD where you could get your own personal Jordan collection, so you always put him on a pedestal anyway. But I think, yeah, I think it was ready to drop this whenever there was a question, And obviously over the last couple of years people have brought that up. And

it's weird though. It's like father time doesn't just take a toll on athletes in terms of their performance, but it also changes your your legacy too, and and they're gonna be questions. And I thought, actually that was the fascinating part for me, was the game at Madison Square Garden, him wearing the old retro Jordan's and him talking about

how his feet are bleeding. It also puts things into context because even throughout the course of his career, it's like, hey, the equipment got so much better that the stuff he was playing in when he was a rookie. It was like making his feet lead later years of his career.

And it's remarkable how many guys have had how about the uh, how about the the insightful stuff that I found to be interesting, like when the Monty Carlo footage, which was there was some new Monty car Carlo footage that practice at the Olympics, and then when he's asked right in the lobby, Hey, who's gonna take the last shot, Jordan if it comes down to and he's like, that's a stupid question. Stupid question. You about the Monte Carlo footage.

That was great because Jordan is screaming knows the nineties Now it's not the eighties anymore. To magic, you know, smack talking back and forth. There's some legendary footage of and this was not in the documentary, and I'm curious as to why it wasn't of the Dream Team playing college players at the time that included Chris Webber and Bobby Hurley and guys like that. Uh, you know, a decision, I guess not to put that in. Maybe I don't know,

maybe they didn't have access. Yeah, it's interesting, and I've interviewed p J Carlismo about that, who's an assistant on that team, and p J had talked about, you know that, the back and forth. I mean, there's always been the question as to whether coach k Uh through that game. I mean, I mean, not coach k Uh, whether Chuck Daily through that game, and that that was the question. Shoshovski was part of that staff, and people had wondered

whether whether that was the case. I mean, I think it was guys like Rodney Rogers played in that game, Penny Hardaway, um, but yeah, they couldn't stay in front of early and the Dream Team documentary on NBA TV went over a lot of that stuff about whether there were questions. But yeah, it's it's it's uh, it's it's amazing that they didn't include that. Also, if you're gonna put the full scope of what happened at the Olympics,

that was the story. The only team ever to beat the Dream Team, it was in a scrimmage and it was an amazing group of college players at that time. Yeah. So, and I'm glad there were no you know, there was no half truths or misleading stuff like the fourteen minute limit or the you know, Michael supposedly going to Vegas which never happened. Um, the one you know besides like random thoughts. They had random thoughts. One was like Jordan's

eyes bothered me. Maybe should get his liver checked, Like that's one thing, but I think like, yeah, I hear you, Yeah, that's there's like a yellow Yeah, like you better get that checked out or just little details like it wasn't wasn't Facebook the Facebook company the first two episodes, and then all of a sudden, it's back to Facebook again, the sponsor of the show. But have you ever heard the le Bradford Smith story? Are you familiar with this story?

I'm sure I've heard the story, but I I don't know if I remember that that was the player. So yeah, so this is Oh did they tease it? I think, well, oh, you know, teas that Scott Van Pelts that after in and then like a post show wrap up, he didn't say the story. He said just wait till they get to le Bradford space. It figures he would know because

he's a d C guy. So it's you know, and this falls under the category of stuff I'd like to have, you know, I'd liked for them to have acknowledged for at least twenty seconds, like my, uh my thing from the first game of his career where Jeff ruland you know, he got up ended by Jeff Rulin. His career could have been over his very first game. So this is his So this is the Bulls third championship season, so

this is late in the three season. This is March of ninety three, the Bulls are going for the three pete, which was covered I guess in this last episode that season, so we're probably not going to get the leb Bradford Smith's story. But um, this is March of ninety three. The Bulls are kind of cruising into the postseason and the Bullets just suck like they always did. And they had drafted le Bradford Smith a couple of years earlier in the first round out of Louisville, and le Bradford

Smith was just a marginal player. But they had the Bulls and the Bullets home and home back to back in Chicago and d C in March. And this is I actually looked up the box scores just to verify all the all the details the story. So March nineteen the first game in Chicago, March the secondame, so you can look up the box scores and Basketball reference. So in March nineteen the Bulls, It's games in Chicago. The

Bulls end up winning the game by five points. But le Bradford Smith of the Bullets goes off and he's he scores thirty seven points on fifteen of twenty shooting, and he was seven for seven from the line, and like the first thing I was like, did le Bradford Smith, Like this had to be Lebradford Smith's career high. So I went into his game log and sure enough, like the next most points le Bradford Smith ever scored in a basketball game in the NBA at the NBA level

was twenty two. Like this was just some out yeah, complete outlier. I used to get basketball die just when I was a kid, and there was always a there was always a page the game I'll never forget. And I imagine that le Bradford Smith this would have been his. So he scores thirty seven, and this is the first night of a back to back against the Bulls, and Uh, on the way the way off the court, le Bradford Smith says, it's up to Jordan, goes ay, good game, Mike.

This the worst possible thing he could have said. So Mike, and you could just imagine Mike that glare that he was probably like, oh yeah. So the next night, Uh, the next night, Jordan's scores thirty in the first half.

I ends up with like forty seven. But anyway, I would have loved for them to have, you know, spent thirty seconds on stuff like that, where it's just like, these are the stories that need to be told, like he had such and that's the that's the beauty of this document series more than anything to me, is showing all the little things. Obviously is Hall of Fame speech. You know, spelled this out beautifully and maybe some would say even sort of without much class and that sort

of venue. But um, the things that that he drew upon for motivation, you know, like he was just he had done everything already. It's like, how can I motivate myself? Oh, Barkley Gott m v P. I'm gonna crush him. Oh, Clyde Drexler was planning. Oh watch this, le Bradford said, good game to me. You know, all the stories are phenomenal.

That's the stuff that that's the stuff that made Jordan's and his lore so incredible and and those of us watching that's why I think when we grew up watching Jordan and all he accomplished, I think that's to my question to the to the lebron over Jordan, Folks is always going to be, uh, what more could Jordan have done? There's there's nothing more in his era you you want to say that the competition wasn't the same, which I would disagree with a lot of that, but you know,

the league was older back then. It's got a lot younger now and all those things. I just think that you look at what Jordan accomplished throughout his career, and every time he set out to accomplish something or defeat someone, he did it. And he had to literally set up challenges to himself. And now we we sort of go

back and it's again him leaving the game. I almost think that was part of it that it Like for me, that's always been my theory on Jordan is that he was I don't want to say bored because that that's almost too strong. But he what more could he have done? I mean, in fact, in fact, yeah, in fact, let me ask you this interrupt, If he doesn't go away for those two seasons, maybe it doesn't play out this way. Like I almost think he needed that time off to

mentally recharge. Yeah, because he he looked for those types of challenges. I mean Don McClain, who some people might remember being u c l A's all time leading scorer and he was the most improved player in the NBA. Don has told told me the Great Jordan's story about how he played in a pickup game with with Jordan and he like had a pretty good game. And so Jordan was like consistent that Don come back, like the

following week, was like, you have to come back. And meanwhile, it's a pickup game over the summer, Like Lau comes back the next week, and like Jordan won't let Don touch the ball, like he just won't let him have it. And Don is as we've been going back and forth watching the last Dance, Don has been saying, like people can now start to realize. And Don's the pre eminent workout guy for all the NBA draft guys now. So he had Donovan, Mitchell, Carl Anthony Towns, Um, you know,

you name it. He's had that the elite players in the draft the last few years. And so there's nobody more familiar than like what nineties basketball was like in a bubble like and then meanwhile, like what it's like now. And Adam he was on that Bullets team with le Bradford Smith by the way, there you go, yeah, yes exactly, yes, that Rex Chapman and and and he and that's the thing that Don and Don talks about it though, just about the level of toughness and they go, he says

all the time. But you don't understand is if Jordan's wanted to have something like that was it? And b j Armstrong alluded to that he sort of referenced did when he gave his interview during Last Dance last night. Was the same thing that that Jordan was kind of playing a different game than everyone else. And and I've always found that to be fascinating. I thought that that was a great quote. What did bj was like, he just he knew how to win, he figured out how

to win. And once he figured out, yeah, that was it was incredible. And I'll tell you an interesting thing and something that that uh is a nugget just for this podcast. But so when I worked at the ESPN with the with the NBA folks, I remember them coming out of meetings at one point and a bunch of the guys that worked on the NBA side started telling me, you will not believe what Scotty Pippen has been saying

in meetings. Scotty's been saying that he was better than Michael Jordan's and Pippen's never gonna say that on this documentary. And by the way, there has there been another guy in NBA history that's been forget it just during the time getting the chance to play alongside Jordan and what that did for his legacy and getting him on the fifty Greatest. But also now, how about post career, the

fact that Scottie Pippen, his career has been treated. I mean, in the documentary, we just we're gonna let slide the j Donde at one point says, oh, yes, Scotty was the number two player, all the best number two guy of all time history, like Kobe played with shock, like Kareem and Oscar play to what are we talking about that Scotti Pippens the best number two of all time?

Gets unbelievable, But um yeah, it's it's remarkable. Jordan's given a lot of people jobs, and he's given a lot of people legacies and stories like le Bradford Smith to tell their their grandad man. Well, we'll enjoy uh segments, so or episode seven through ten, I suppose, but I uh I a pre j you hanging out again because I wanted to get your thoughts. I know you uh you had some special insights and stories as well. I mean, it's just it's fascinating. Here's the thing again, I'll just

say it in conclusion. I don't want all the you know, the the little omissions that I've cited, or the or the criticism all along. It's not really criticisms. I've enjoyed it. Uh, it's probably I mean, look, this thing has gotten so much hype during a pandemic that it wouldn't have otherwise, probably if we were just in normal sports, uh, schedule wise. So there's a little of that at play too, but

it's still super enjoyable. And what a task. What uh you know this is whenever when else in life will we ever have this situation of anything where there's some secret footage somewhere that finally gets released, you know, decades after the fact. It's fascinating. Man. The Michael Jordan's a Brewer film, it's amazing that that's right. And and and the Michael Jordan's a Brewer film is him with Scottie Barrell on a plane talking about else an alcoholic it's

gotten Vrell doesn't want his parents to fund it. Yeah, that's Oh, that's the one thing you and I said about. Sorry, I will conclude with this the the womanizing right, like because Jordan has final editorial say like Jordan, I mean after his career, we all heard lots of stories about Jordan's and uh, Jordan will take your girl kind of stuff. We're not getting any of that in episode seven to ten. I doubt no, No, that's not coming. That's that's not coming. Adam,

appreciate it, man. Rejecting the screen is the name of the podcast you do with Noa. Koslov. Your latest guest is we got Vin Baker coming up on Thursday. Yeah, so he's he was actually interested. We talked some. Vin Baker was a star during the late nineties when when Jordan was there, his career obviously took a turn, but then had a bunch of interesting things to say. Yeah, that was a very fascinating interview Thursday, Vin Baker. Alright, cool.

Appreciate it man. We'll we'll check that out and uh we'll get you back on the numbers game probably next week talk seven and eight, nine and ten. After that sounds good bye, man, Adam Stako want to be in the book podcast The exclusive laps of this pot