Beating the Book: Sean Patrick Griffin, Author, "Gaming the Game: The Story Behind the NBA Betting Scandal and the Gambler Who Made It Happen”

wins and some props. That's coming up first today. This one is precipitated by a long form ESPN dot com piece that was put out last week about the Tim Donahe NBA betting scandal from well a decade ago, and it was hailed by folks on the network as groundbreaking, path breaking, And it occurs to me that it ought to be time to dust off my old interview with

Sean Patrick Griffin. This is a classic Sean Patrick Griffin, the author of the book Gaming the Game, The Definitive Account, an investigation of the Tim Donnahee betting scandal from so many years ago. This is a classic interview with sewn

one of my favorite podcasts ever. In case you did not hear it so many years ago, it is here in full form right now for your enjoyment, a window to what is not only the biggest scandal in modern day sports history when it comes to betting, but also a reminder of how this could very well happen in some form at any time, maybe not in the NBA, but in any other kind of sport. I don't think

it's that far fetched. Sean Patrick Griffin and the makings of the Tim Donnahee NBA betting scandal with all the betting characters involved, right here on the Beating the Book podcast and Joy Associate Professor of Criminal Justice at Penn State Abington, a PhD with a research area and organized crime, a former Philadelphia police officer, and an author of several books, which is why we have him here, most notably the author of Gaming the Game, the story behind the NBA

betting scandal, and the gambler who made it happen. Sean Patrick Griffin, thanks so much for being on the show. Sean, thanks for having to Sean before we get into the book. Your background that I just ran through right there obviously jibes quite nicely with this story, and I'm sure it was a natural for you to be drawn to this subject matter in the first place. But was there a specific circumstance or event that directly precipitated you writing this,

actually there was. I was actually out promoting my last book, and let me step back when when the scandal hit in summer of oh seven, like all sports fans, I was following the news and I thought I had a good grasp on the nature of the NBA betting scandal.

And then by Marshall O eight, I'm out promoting my last book and ran into somebody who knew, somebody who knew the pro gambler, jim A. Fautista, who was one of the three, you know, the three conspirators in the NBA betting scandal, and he asked me if I would

be interested in speaking with him. And the truth was, at that time, if you had interviewed me, I would have told you I was torn on whether they even meet with you mean Bautista, because you know, the thing had been through the criminal justice system and we all thought we knew the story. But I thought, okay, fine, you know, I don't know that there's a story to tell, but I'll be interested. And the real reason I wanted to he with Batista actually wasn't the NBA betting scandal.

It was because I knew from what little I had read and what from this person that told me that Batista had been in the betting world for decades and was connected to some of the biggest people in the industry. And I thought at that point, and I'm now convinced that it's true that no one had ever really interviewed the big time sharps in the business. As you mentioned,

my background is organized crime research. Well, typically that means that you're researching if you're talking about gambling, you're researching low level bookmakers, you know, the guys in the corner tap room or the pub or whatever. And that's interesting, but but everyone's covered that. No one ever really covered the people who bet for a living. You know, millions of dollars every day, still bring money through Asia, Europe, wherever.

So I figured if I could, if I could get access to this Sista, if he was credible and willing to talk about that in addition to talking about the NBA betting scandal, then it would be worth my while. Um And as I've said numerous times, I literally met with Fatista for half of an hour and I knew immediately, oh my goodness, public has no clue, gold model clue about the the NBA betting scandal, let alone this massive,

massive underworld of big time sports gambling. So that's how that's how this all began back in a Wait, what a gold mine you realized that you had happened upon. So it occurs to me, Sean, I should probably give some context here before I ask numerous questions that I do have many of them, both macro and micro. But

let's give some context. While everyone in the media, as you allude to there, was focused on Tim Donnahe and understandably so, since the NBA portion of the saga is obviously mammoth, and we had a first hand account from Donnahe in two thousand nine. Facts be damned by the way, but you had already done your research by that time, and you had decided you were going to write about this much bigger story of Jimmy Ba Ba the Sheep Batista.

In fact, the first half of the book doesn't even touch on the NBA scandal, but describes the experiences that formed Batista. Why don't we start there to set the stage? How did he become this amazingly powerful figure in the gambling universe? You know, I'm glad you're asked me that question. I don't know how many dozens of interviews I've done, and that part of the book is ignored, and to somebody like me, I find that probably the more fascinating part of the story, and in fact, why that's the

part of the story that Abby Wood interested in. Batista's start in betting World's actually interesting. He was involved in all sorts of shady things as a kid as a teenager. Nothing crazy criminal, but he was always a hustler. So you'll see in the book that there are discussions about him making fake driver's licenses back when you know that he was trying to help his buddies out in high school get driver's licenses though, so they can go drink

anything like that. Well, he takes an arrest for drinking and driving while he's in high school, and that's also an occasion where his his scam of underaged licenses, of being manipulated. It was also exposed. As there is all of those arrests, he loses his driver, loses his driver's license, and his father is adamant that even though he's lost his driver's license and can't drive to work, he's got to get a new job. And if that means walking

to work with arn't you're gonna walk to work. As luck would have it, the only place that to which she could walk was a local restaurant, and so he went there to ask for a job as a waiter. Well, he gets a job as a waiter at this local restaurant, and it turns out that the restaurant is owned by the area's bookmaking big shot. So the guy who's running

the restaurant hires Batista as a waiter. Batista doesn't mind waiting tables, but he's totally blown away by the constant traffic coming in out of the restaurant to with this bookmaker. And there's a line in Gaming the Game that that really tells the story about why Batista found bookmaking embedding so fascinating and so important. He liked the idea that this restaurant owner slash bookmaker had so many people who wanted to be next to him and owed him so

many things. And what he realized earlier early on was obviously the bookmakers make good money. Everyone loses, people very rarely win for continuous amounts of time, and people typically can't pay back their debts to bookmakers. And what he saw was bookmakers not only getting money, but they wind up getting favors. He loved the idea that everybody knew this restaurant owner, and this restaurant owner wouldn't have to

pay for any number of services. So whether it was catering for this event, paying a bad for this whatever, everyone owed him so much money that he wound up getting all sorts of things taken care of. And that was just the way this guy lift his life. And Batista was totally fascinated by that, and so he starts getting roomed. He all. This guy was also a big

part as once Fatista that point in time. So this old school bookmaker takes Batista under his wing, and that's how he gets tapped into the whole idea of Wow, I can have the legitimate guys of looking at a restaurant, but I can actually be involved in bookmaking and it looks great and it's obviously a great way to longer money if you were interested in that sort of thing. So how he got started. It's just a regular low level bookmaker. Isn't that amazing how life's circumstances just sort

of guide you. The fact that he didn't have a car puts him in this restaurant and the rest as they say is history. It's obviously he becomes this amazing figure. It escalates from there, and you describe it in wonderful detail in the book. That's one of the great things about this book is not only is it an amazing story, but it describes the mechanics of what becomes Batista's betting

operation in detail. It's fascinating from both angles. I think gambling audiences will specifically just love how this book goes from both angles without giving away every detail the book, how did Batista finally catch wind of Donahee? Shenanigans lead us up to that point? Okay, well, he won't be given too much away, because the bridge between Batista's low level bookmaking career locally in the suburbs of Philadelphia quickly migrates to a much bigger operation. That restaurant owner whose

street name was Louis the Lump. Louis the Lump becomes partners with another major player in the Philadelphia area, a guy many of your followers may know whose name was Mike Wrener. He passed away several years ago, but Mike Werenier was a perfectly legitimate businessman who owned restaurants and supermarkets well he also had a massive bookmaking embetting operations. So when one partners with Vernier, he brings over the

wait staff from Batista's restaurant. And as I say in the book, for most of the staff at at this restaurant, this was just a change scenery. But for Batista it was a life altering event because he thought he was a hotshot as a low level bookmaker. He had no clue how big you could be on the East coast of the United States, and Mike We're near was one

of the most significant people on the East Coast. And the reason that's important, it really is about priming and your people who follow gambling or and know this if you look back at the late eighties or early nineties, which is roughly the time period I'm discussing, this is right when the Internet comes out, of course, and so when you see Batista story, you not only see this fascinating your eyes of hit of him within the bookmaking world and the betting world, but you're also by definition

getting the rise of technology and the way that everything from cell phones, you know, the migration from pagers to cell phones changes betting, the way that the Internet changes betting, how information is now traveling so much faster. So that's one of the things I found most fascinating about the story. I think it's interesting and funny. Batista and his cast of characters is hysterical if you sit down on the

interview them. But you also whether you even I don't even think people realize how much you're learning as you're hearing them tapped into all this technology. Well, getting back to your question about how he winds up with Donegi, as he writes, is every year's operation, and he formed. They formed this subset of a betting syndicate they called the animals. They all had nicknames of animals. They were asked to operate an off shore sports book in Curasal.

So you flash forward to two thousand and three and Batista is now Incourasal and Jim Donaghy at that point is an eight year NBA referee. Donnighie starts betting on his own games. We know, at least going back to the O two oh three season. Well, he didn't know what was happening with his bets. And what I mean by that is he was placing his bets with a good friend of his, a golfing buddy. Named Jackie Kennon. Jackie Kennon isn't a wise guy, He's not a handicap

where he's just a regular guy. So he of course needed somewhere to place Donnigie's bets. He placed them with a friend of his named Pete Rogerry, who was a professional gambler. Pete Roggerry was getting on the phone and calling Jimmy Batista incourasal and until now an one has ever understood but what was it at Ruggieri's and Batista's interest and on these games, Hotta, They realized that these

were an NBA referees games. And for the first time you'll hear what the teeth They explained, Jack Kingcannon historically was betting two thousand dollars for each NBA game, and all of a sudden started betting five thousand dollars on certain NBA games. Five thousand dollar pets were winning at a ridiculous rate. So Ruggieri and Batista immediately said, okay, what is going on? What's the common theme with these five thousanding games, And of course it took him two

seconds to realize it was games. Tim Donnegue was officiating, and they knew that King Cannon and Donnie were good friends, so they just assumed that those two had concocted some sort of scam, and for three full NBA seasons they simply copied the bets that Donnegue was placing on games he was officiating. Bunny Way, Tim Donniegue didn't know that, and he stilled game in the game came out until your book came out. He had no idea, no idea.

He simply knew that he was telling King Cannon. He had no idea how but just to figure all this out until now, even after he actually met Buttist still like he didn't figure it out bet but that he never discussed it what it winds up happening when you flashed forward to the start of the O six oh seven NBA season. By now Donnie has been betting on his own games for three years, and the tief has been copying the bets, but never told anybody. Of course, as he says in the book, I wasn't stupid. I

was gonna tell anybody I know about this. Well, Donneghie starts complaining about jacking kennon, not paying on betting debts, on betting wins, so he complains to a friend of his named Tommy and Martino. People who follow the NBA betting scandal will realize he's the third conspirator. Donny is the referee, Batist the pro gambler, and Martino they're friend

from high school. So as a result of him complaining about jacking Kennon not paying on debt, which by the way, Jackie Kennon to this day animidly denies ever owing Donnigian and Nichol and says that if he said he met, thenisias breeding. Regardless, Martino sets up a meeting, that infamous meeting December twelve, two thousand and six, at the Philadelphia International Marriott. And it's at that meeting where Donni decides to switch from betting with Jackie Kennon to betting with

Jimmy Batista. And that's what starts happening. On December when the Sixers are in town to play the Boston Celtics, donnage a freeing. That's the first game that he officiates

that he bets on directly with Fatista. And what your listeners will appreciate that maybe the regular listeners you know who don't follow gambling won't The idea that Fatista is now getting direct access to Donnage is not trivial because he's going to get the pics earlier, which allows him to be the great betting lines over a longer period of time and increase his you know, his rate of return. So that was a huge thing for him. Absolutely, And

give us an idea of that discrepancy. I know that he bet standard ten to twenty thousand dollars on an average NBA game. What was he betting on a Donna? He reft game one to two millions? Wow? Wow. So from ten to twenty thousand average to one to two million on a Donna he officiated game that The only the only reason he didn't that more was because the

market you know, is not infinite. That was the most he could get down sure, which again that's where the gambling audience comes in, because folks know how tough it is to get down. In fact, you and I talked about Billy Walters off the air. His big skill set is figuring out a way to get all that money down. Well, that's well, Jimmy Fatista. For people who are not familiar with the story, are familiar with game in the game. Fatista's expertise was not as a handicapped He's not a

sharp better. He simply worked for those people as a mover, and a mover simply somebody who takes those large bets, whether it's a few hundred thousand, whether it's a million or two, and bringing him into pieces and getting them down all around the world. Of course, it has to

be done fairly, sufficient, sophisticated, and very quickly. And as you'll see if you read the book, people will feel realize that he had als everywhere Asia, all throughout Europe, all throughout the off shore, you know, in the particular places, especially cars out and he had a he had cruiser warners in Vegas and he just had That's that was

his expertise. People sought him out. What are the things said? Now, I don't mean the sound naive, but I will admit I was blown away when I interviewed people who we worked with and for Batista and for whom he worked. And if you ask that crowd of people, well, I don't get it what made Batista so special, because Batista will tell you, look, I'm not a sharp gambler. I couldn't. There's a great line in the book where he says he couldn't get changed in the same closet as the

sharp betters that he worked with. And I used to say I saw it, ask people, well, then, what made him so special? And their response was interesting, and I think two regular people, this is gonna sound goofy. And it was simply that he was trustworthy. He was diligent, he was hard working, He paid on losses, and for people in the gambling comut they might be saying, you know, those things are not taken for granted. You know the thing he was that guy who was willing, He was

always available. You know. I described this operation in detail, and when I first took up with him, he still had his phone bag. He was infamous for this phone bag. There was a Crown Royal purple bag that helped his twelve cell phone. There were direct longings to each of his clients. You didn't ever want to have to mix up the packs or put somebody on hold, so every person got the direct phone. Wow. This book is filled with little details like this. Just awesome, And you're right,

those are such rare commodities. Is trustworthiness in the gambling community? I have so many questions here Sean. So where do I begin. Let me start with the bigger ones, so that I don't forget those later. I want to take this from every perspective. Let's start with the NBA. How did the n b A not know this? In other words, do you buy that the NBA is ignorant enough that

they honestly didn't know about Donnahee's years of gambling? Or do you believe they might have known but feared a pr disaster We're simply hoping the story would somehow fade into oblivion, or is that second option giving the NBA far too much credit. I obviously spent a lot of time on this. I spent some time in the book. I've spent a ton of time on my website about this. The NBA thout of four and five and five and six six seasons, I can possibly give them the town

about not seeing the obvious. And in case the public's wondering, why am I segmenting those three seasons out compared to the O six oh seven season? If people regain the game, there's an appendix. And then the appendix includes betting line data from three major sports books. And the reason I included those I think there's just been too much mythology about the scandal, and in no small part due to Donaghy and his ridiculous book and other claims. Um So,

I wanted to put put it all out there. If I had access to betting line data or betting records or whatever, I put it in there so that this could all be resolved once and for all. And what you'll see is the betting lines in the OH three to oh six seasons move, but not nearly as radically as they do in OH six oh seven. And that's for the reason we discussed earlier. Batista is now getting access to those picks a lot, a lot earlier in the day, and the line get moved throughout the course

of a day. So I can excuse the NBA for not seeing the betting lines in those three seasons if that was their way of tracking this. The problem, however, is people may not realize this. Donicky was almost fired in two thousand and five for off the court behavior, including gambling, and so the NBA actually interviewed people and investigated him for gambling. Now you can obviously questioned, like,

don't forget it, think about the irony kill. That's Mack in the middle of ending on his own names and they miss it. So so I don't know how serious that investigation was. Obviously they didn't see this, apparently, you know. And anyway, so you go to O six O seven. That's where the NBA has got a serious problem. And the reason I say it is because the betting line data tell you all you need to know. That part of the book is interesting because the sports books managers

all shore, they knew about this. They were profiting from it, they were copying the bets. So what Batista said? I asked Batista why he didn't agree to clossway with the NBA when they were doing their Petui study. People may remember the NBA did to study. It was called the Pettis Report after the the author of the study, Very pettu Wid, an attorney from New York. Well. I asked thea Tis though why he didn't cooperate with the NBA, and his response was, I didn't believe that they really

wanted to know what happened. I don't. I never believed that they didn't know about what we were doing. That somebody in the NBA had to have known, especially Bio six or seven. How was it that the programmering community knew we were copying our bets. People in sports books knew they were moving the line the consideration of the bets. How is it that somebody had to have heard something. It doesn't make sense to me as a gambler. He said that. But he also said something interesting, which was

he didn't cooperate with the NBA. He was convinced they would never ever conclude they they would never produce a study which concluded the Donnity six games because their losses. How would you ever calculate losses in lawsuits? People, you know, franchises have lost lottery picks, people are lost playoff slotting. You know, he taken horse. So he that's why he disagreed with what the NBA was doing and didn't cooperate.

And so when I stepped back, and when you get to that part of the book, I actually they walk the reader through what the NBA had access to, what they should have known, and I actually give suggestions at the back end of the book of what they could do to further understand this. So wouldn't happen again. If you're enjoying my interview with Shawn Patrick Griffin, author of Gaming the game from twenty eleven is always. Support for today's show comes from Bookmaker dot eu and industry leader

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eu slash gil. It is the place to be. Well all of that is why I asked that question initially, because it is such a curious part of all of this. And you mentioned your appendix, Sean, which to me is really and correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't that really the unassailable part of all of this? It really is the smoking gun, because there it is in black and white. This is the data. We can all give our opinions on whatever, but here's the stats. This is in many

ways the key part to everything. Oh that was well, that was why I put it as an appendix. By the way, I was concerned. I'm a I'm an academic by trade, so I didn't want to bore people, but I was so frustrated by here's the easiest way to say this. There are certain parts of the story that will forever be doing he said this. Martino said that the said this Regent right, But there are certain things that are irrefutable, and that's why the appendix is there.

And if you've got access as I did, to the tiefa's betting records, the FBI files that the public has never seen, to the betting line data from the sports books, that was my whole point of doing that, because I am I have been so frustrated at the way this has been treated in the media as oh, law, we'll just never know. No, that's not true. The numbers don't lie,

and then they are Listen. I'm a numbers guy, and that's why I loved that you included that as well, because to there it is once again, if you were up in the air after all that, here's the appendix. Check it out. So follow up to what we were just talking about. Then, I have a couple of follow up questions, and forgive me Sean, as I'm just going

to say these as I think of them. With the NBA, now that this is all transpired, you know, the scandal has occurred, were on the other end of it, Perhaps any indication that there are any more vigilant about this now than prior to the scandal because David Stern seems awfully calmed to me. They claim that they now are

following betting lines, which they never did before. You know, the NFL for years has tracked betting lines, and they've got people with their your good ground tracking any weird betting line moves, the end being never did bet They now claim to not only be following betting lines, but they say that they now have a computer model that is connecting somehow betting line movement with individual level referee

call data. The only reason I'm a skeptic with that is there, of course not releasing any referee call data. I asked for it when I was doing research for the book because I am familiar with a pro gambler who has done that or the research. He actually seriously tracks NBA referee call data, sure, and his research showed that Donny was off the charts when it came to certain things like illegal calling illegal defenses which you know,

very very rarely is done combing the ball. You know, Donnie the gamblers always told me that the way Donnie was fixing games was that he was calling calls that were technically correct but often ignored. And that's why they wouldn't be you know, view with a you know, a

scan I because that they are technically true calls. Before you go on that detail, right, there might be the funniest thing about all of this to me, because Donnahy makes a point, doesn't he with his wording all the time, whenever he was on a record, he always said, I was not making incorrect calls to advance my beast. You're very good at this. That's exactly right. And so you

just mentioned what he was doing. In essence, if we're to believe the folks you talked to, is he was actually calling basketball correctly, palming illegal defenses like I have this image of Dr James Naismith with a peach basket under his tweed suits saying, if finally there's a ref who calls this game as I imagined it's and his name is Tim Donaheye, of all of all people in

the world, that's amazing to me. Well, I the only reason that's that's actually probably the only data set that I had that it didn't include in the book, and it was only because um I was on the verge of getting a much fuller data set, which I'm not Actually if it's not going to be in the paperback version. I'll actually just play it up on my website. But the one I was also accessed UM. I also accessed another data set, and that is included in the book.

You can actually track splits of referees. So, for instance, typically a referee you will call san against one, ten calls against one team, eight against another, fifteen or twelve. It's always fairly down the middle. But Donneghe's games have splits of fourteen, two thirteen. I mean, they're ridiculous. And that's the point, and that's why I include I. That's

why we said it onment ago. The appendix has all of at and you know, let's all lets our users can flue what they may, but to me, it's irrefutable

what was going on in those games. Yeah. I don't need to go off on a tangent on that point specifically, but that to me is so funny because it's so damning about the NBA, just on a complete aside from this actual story, the fact that folks just aren't even calling games and Donna he actually called these games correctly anyway, just a side point, But you brought up something else though, Sean you mentioned there somewhere in the middle that offshore

sports books admit readily about being aware of what was happening and cashed in. Big time sports books in Vegas had to have been complicit as well, Right, they're not acknowledging this in Vegas. Well, I only spoke with um two sports books managers directly in research for the book, and they each now I must pressace this and your listeners will get a check out of this. I'll give you one example because it speaks to the bigger problems

I have with this project. I find I get in touch as one sports book manager of a major sports book was always quoted in the media. It was a very popular guy with the media where that's some rather interesting things to say about the NBA scana, which is why I contacted him. I explained what I was doing, what my research was showing, and I of course had data from the sports book. So when I first started talking to him, I said, by the way, I have

to compliment you on your sports book. I hung out there last summer when I was doing rests is a couple of years ago, when I was doing research for the game. In the game, I spent time in Vegas, hanging out in the sports books with all the runners, and so I said, I hung out with runners in your sports book, when he cut me off and said, no, no, no, so we don't have runners in our sports book. And I said, no, you're not understanding me correctly. I'm not

asking you. I'm telling you I was in your sports book with the runners. That was part of the research from a book. And he said, no, no no, no, we don't have runners. Runners are illegal out here. And I thought, oh, I know how this interview is gonna go. I wasn't in your sports book, Rock, I'll convince myself of that. I was not in your sports book with the runners. Go forward, and I tell him what the paper show,

and I've got acts us these betting lines. And he said, well, if the betting lines moved that way, we would have noticed. And I said, no, no, once again, we're going back to this hypothetical. This isn't hympothetical. I'm giving you the betting lines. And he said no, no, no, that couldn't have happened. We would have noticed. And I thought, okay,

this is a fruitless pursuit here. And that's why I wrote in the book the sports book managers have a problem because the FBI reached out to people like this guy during their investigation. Now you're one of these sports book managers, You've got one of two options. You either say yes, we saw those betting lines move, at which point the FED will say, well didn't occur to you to tell anybody like us, or or they asked to say, oh wow, how did we miss That is not a

good good proposition for them. They have to either show the require of it or or incompetent, And which is why I had an awkward conversation with the sports book manager. So they have not admitted hargn record acknowledging what when I present in the book a d eight percent of listeners to this pod know exactly who you're speaking about as well. By the way, let me let me ask you about this quote from Batista, because I'm guessing you

have a different opinion of this. Bautista says famously in the book, here do I think stuff like this involving corrupt officials going on in other leagues? He says absolutely, the money involved is too big to ignore. He goes on to say, you have to consider a financial situation for these officials they're making pennies compared to the athletes, people get jealous. Also, don't forget how much some people like to gamble. Once somebody owes a bookmaker some cash,

who knows what they do to pay off their debt. That, obviously, Sean, is the big question that folks like to ask. I suppose the conspiracy theories that we so love to toss around would lend to that conclusion, for sure. But I'm guessing you're not quite as convinced that similar scandals exist in the NBA or another leagues, are you? No, not at all? For one reason, the chiefs gave that quote. You know, I believe him. Don't forget that he's a gambler,

so he's always he's just as everyone hustling all the time. Um, when I when I hung out with pro gamblers and with the Cruiser of runners and all that, I heard all sorts of incredible stories, and many of which I believe, about inside information being transmitted between all sorts of parties. But what I never heard was evidence of other officials altering dame outcomes and any of the four major sports

in the United States. And so, as I say over and over, I'm not naive enough to say it can't happen. I'm simply saying that. Over and over all I heard was how excited people were when they heard that an NBA official was fixing his games, which is why they copied them, because it was such an anomaly. They couldn't believe there was an official one of the four major sports betting on his own games and fixing the outcomes. And so it's it's just inconceivable that I was living

in this world. I spent two and a half years doing the research for this book, traveling all over the place, getting access to all betting records, and that entire underworld. I never heard a word of other people involved beyond Donnigie, whether it was in the NBA or other other sports. So and and I took I took particular attention, of course, um to the NBA scandal from Oth three to Go seven, because it was always a life that Donnaghie had partnered

with other referees. Everyone knew about Scott Foster and the phone calls and all that, and so I really looked into that to see what evidence there was, if any of that. And that's another reason those betting records are important because there's no evidence based on what Batista was betting or on the betting lines, that other referees were influencing game outcomes. You don't interview Donnahee in this book because Donnahie's claims were so fictitious to begin with that

there wasn't a point. Would that be a fair characterization? Yeah, they were. I don't even want to call them laughable. I it's it's difficult to be to convey to people how wildly, patently, demonstrably false dozens of his key claims are and that that's me. By the way, I don't even get into dealing with Donnighie's claims in the book. It just wasn't worth my time for the reader. And I actually do have all of that up on my website.

If people want to go to Sean Patrick Griffin dot net Sean S. E A N. Patrick Griffin g R I F F I N dot net, they'll see there's an entire section of the website devoted to the NBA betting scandal. Oh, this is important. Go In addition to the appendix of the book where I want to solve a lot of this, I also had a lot of data that wasn't really useful for the book, but that will also help people if they ever really wanted to

understand the NBA betting scandal. So QUURT files, QURT documents, FBI files, whatever I could put up on the web, I put up on the web again because I want all the mythology resolved and included in that. I have a blow by blow section of my assessment of ten Don's claims, and it has to be if you printed out, it's probably fifteen pages. Shan. I have to tell you, I love this part of your website. Actually did some research on your website for this interview. I'm sure you're

gonna launch into it. But he obviously claimed insider knowledge and par from officials and locker rooms, and that he bet some of his own games and some of the ones he didn't. Could you talk about debunking those specifically? Sure? Well here, as I said, we could do this for hours,

but I'll give us an easy ones. He says that, as you just said, he says that his betting success was not based on what he was doing on the court, that it was simply based on his access to quote unquote inside information that he would gather, especially in the locker rooms in the run up to an event. There's a famous quoler he said he knew he knew to pick an hour before a game because of what he was hearing. Well, you can do this a variety ways

for starters. Batista's betting all day long, way before Donna he ever gets to an arena. Beyond that, with respect to his claim that oh, I been equally on games I didn't officiate, he says NEO six oh seven season is in particular that he'd been on six team games he officiated and fourteen didn't. That that's a key claim because it's his whole point. It wouldn't matter, of course, if he was officiating. If inside information really was the reason he was waiting. Well, there were four people, as

we discussed earlier, who were privy to this. Donnigan was betting through Tongue Artino, his high school buddy, who was transmitting the information to Jimmy Battista, and this kind of Pete Ruggieri was copying the bets. Well, what the public never knew until now was pet Riggerry and Tommy Martino cooperated with the government even pendently. So the public has never heard what those two people said, and of course no one before I got got access to Batista had

ever talked to Petissa. Well, what you see is all three people independently because until now no one knew, you know, no one did the Martino had cooperated, including Roggieri. No one knew what Ruggieri had told the FEDS, and no one knew what Patiffa had said. So when you look at their statements, they're all in agreement. There were no

bets on games that Donny he wasn't officiating. There was a period in January of oh seven, and in this everyone's in the agreement where Donnie he tried bending on other NYDIA referee games, but he lasted a few games, they were losers, and Patissa said, I don't want those bets any longer. So when you look at just the statements of the witnesses, there is no support for his contention that he was betting equals on other referees games.

Beyond that, and again we go to the appendix, you can text this because you can look at Batista's bed in records. Well, there you're no record of him betting on non domage games. That's why the ten to twenty dollar NBA game thing versus the one that two million on Donneghe's games was noteworthy. Beyond that, you can track betting lines, and that's what I do. I break down for the public. Okay, here heard of betting line moves

on donneghe games versus everyone else. From December of those six three below oh seven, during the key part of that season, his lines were moving four or five six points for NBA games. That's unheard of, and the percentage of games that moved that much are way more than the rest of the NBA. And there's a reason that bets are only on donaghese games. So that's that's probably the easiest way to summarize the whole issue of whether it was quote unquote inside information. By the way, this

is a special for your especially for your audience. I don't get into this on general sports rade your shows, but your audience will appreciate it. People took the time to look at what he calls inside in for nation, You're probably any percent of your audience is privy too

quote unquote inside information. It was. I think I think it was lost on Donnegi that pro gamblers and people who simply follow gambling are totally aware of relationships between certain coaches and certain teams and certain referees and all

of that, And there were some other specific things. And again that is just off the top of my head, Shawn, but very widely publicized that he would talk to officials in locker rooms and he knew information from those officials, But bets were made hours prior to that, right, so that couldn't have been relevant at all. Whatsoever. You should listen your your audience knows that you can't get two million dollars down on the game, of course, fifteen minutes

or an hour. Absolutely, and and that's the key people never understood if the people regaining the game. And it gets to the appendix. I tried to be methodical about how you can disprove all of this. So whether, as I said earlierhe it's the betting records, the betting line data, or whatever. And there's a subsection about the sociology of betting.

How Batista was doing the betting, Well, it was entirely counter to the idea that Donnie's gonna call Hey frantically and however before a game and get in a call. That's not how this has done. And there was something else. And forgive me, Sean, I know I'm being scattered braied about this, but I mean some of these details were so fascinating, and we'll be fascinating too many. You mentioned a donnahe Mom Dad code that goes completely counter to

believing his story as well. Well, that's you know what. Thank you for reminding me. This doesn't even require any betting expertise. But and this I actually they didn't even require me. But for some reason, no one picked up on this. What the three conspirators all told the fads was that there was a code mom and Dad meaning Mom for home, Dad for a way. The idea was that Donnaghan never wanted to be on the phone with Fatista, so they would go through Martino. So donnighe would placed

his bets with Martino. Martino would tell what, tell Batisa what the bet was, and they would you this code. And as I explained in the book, he's over minding all the overwhelming data that I give the public, even if you simply looked at the code. Well, if there are six NBA games tonight and donnighe called Martino and says, yeah, Mom, Well, what the hell does he know? What that means he it only works if you know what game you're betting.

Games were Donnage's games, right, He's only giving it once. It has to be a Donnaghee game because there's so many games on the schedule. How else would they know, right exactly that there's just there are so many ways to do that. And by the way we're used, I'm talking about the key claims, you know, and Donneghe's book gets into the FBI's investigation. He gets the investigation entirely wrong. He gets how it started wrong, and gets what he said.

It's I've always been struck by the fact that he was so ignorant for naive that somebody, whether it's going to be me or somebody else, you're not going to be involved in one of the biggest scandals in US sports history, and somebody's not going to take the time to get the files, get the court records and put together the story. I don't know what he was thinking, that somebody wasn't gonna come along and say, well, whoa is that didn't happen, and here's the file that didn't happen,

and here's what the judge says. That didn't happen. And here's what the U. S. Attorney says. Do you say the Bureau of Prison said this, Well, here's what they told me. I don't. I don't know what he was thinking, Sean. Isn't that the funny part about any crime committed that has any way of tracking it, where they're like, and I'm gonna get away with it, you know, just complete tunnel vision on what they're doing. I'll never get caught

doing this. It's so funny. You know. Don't remind me of you know, you and I off air, Uh, we were talking briefly about how Oprah was involved with Skype. Well, Oprah was on my mind as I was reading Jim Domu's book and and some of your audience may remember, Oprah was involved in that massive scandal of a book called A Million Little Pieces, which was written by an author named James Fry. It was a scandal. It was

a scandal, of course for people who don't know. The book was about overcoming addiction and Oprah needed her Book of the Month club, which automatically near the New York Times bestseller And it was discovered by the Smoking Gun dot com that James Fry had cooked all all the story involving criminal justice. They had gone to get the Quirk files and realized that his stories that were on the issues that you could check we're wildly wrong, if

not totally focused. Well, I had argued over and over again that Tim Donnegie's book is the sports version of James Fries a million little pieces, because for anything you can check out, it's totally focused. That's great. I never thought of it that way. By the way, Oprah and her final shows apologized profusely to James Fry for coming down so hard on him. It's very I heard that. I heard the one of her girlfriends had told asked her, who do you think that's right? Who? Who allowed you

to judge another human being? That's right? Let me tell your audience, I feel perfectly comfortable judging another human that's right. We have no qualms about that here, Sean, none whatsoever. What's also hilarious about this? In the end. I don't know if hilarious is the right word, but it is kind of amusing that in the end. Certainly, not the NBA, but even the f B I didn't bring this down,

did they. It had nothing to do with their investigation. Initially, no nobody can take credit for this other than a pro gambler. We mentioned earlier that pro gambler Pete Rogerry. Well, what app what lines up happening. Oh and by the way, this is going to debunk another don key Donnigie claimed, which I'll mention at the end of this. So the scandal is going throughout the O six oh seventh season. On March eighteen, two thousand and seven, Gi meant Fatista

that goes into drug rehab. At that point, he sets it up that Pete Rouggerry is now going to work with Donneghie and Martino. Well, the scandal goes on for a handful of games more, and it's Pete Rouggerry, not the NBA, not the FBI. It's a Ruggieri who shuts the scheme down because he realizes by this point the betting lines are flying all over the place. The moment they start betting on Donneghe's games, people from all over the world are copying the bets. The word is out.

So it's Pete Rouggieri who shuts the scheme down. Now, the reason that's important with respect to Donnege's claims, just to bring that back again, Donnie keeps saying, by the way his story changed when he put out a book, people need not have realized this. What he told the

FBI during his negotiations was one thing. What he wrote in his book and has said on the media tour is something wildly and totally different, including this piece where he now says over and over again that he was relieved when Jimmy Batista went in drug rehab because you know, Jimmy Batista, of course was the arm of the Gambino

Prime family forcing him to bet on games. Well, of course you get access to the FBI files and of course there's no reference whatsoever to organize Prime ever um they never ever, of course charged Martino or Batissa with extortion. And beyond that, the FBI tells us that from February of O seven through April of O seven, Donnighie had started setting again with Jack Kie Kennon and was now betting not only with the Pisa but with King Cannon.

And when Patissa goes in drugg reab, he's been a virgerry. So relieved he was that Batistas in't drug rehab because he wouldn't have to bet on games any longer. And the truth he was setting an entire time and in fact, as like quote Tommy Martino in the book, Donnighie can plane and begs the one more game when he's heard Petergero shutting the scheme down, didn't Ruggieri finally just stop with donnahe and Martino because he realized they were just

idiots pretty much. Yes, she said there are fools was his word. Ye. So you know, I could spend hours talking just about Donnig's ridiculous claims, but I want to give one to a gambling audience. Say through this for a second, he has been squares with anybody in your audience. Donnighie claims that throughout the oh three oh four, of four oh five and oh five or six seasons, he was betting on his games for thirty to forty games

a year. Now, that, of course, is when he's betting with Jack and Cannon, and he has to pay if he loses. Now the O six oh seven season, when he has cut his it was to me, fatista. The deal is he is paid for his wins, but does not have to pay all his losses. Given that set of circumstances, Tim Donnaghie this self professed gambling addict, does he best thirty are games nowadays, this unbelievable deal where

he doesn't have to pay on losses. You know, Donnikie claims during that season he only bet on sixteen games. This is ridiculous. So you know, and as I say, I could walk people through those for hours. And that's why I didn't take the time to do it in the book, because I didn't want to humor his nonsense. I there was a great story to tell, a fascinating story to tell, and I wanted to keep it tight

and the things that are provable. That's why I realized as much as possible on FBI files, hastic interviews with FBI as into US Attorney's officials, the judges commenced, the court record all the stuff that actually happened. So only Martino, Batista and Donnahy end up serving time, and hordes of pro gamblers everywhere, I imagine got away unscathed with untold millions in all of this. That's exactly right. I actually wound up tracking down I count seven. So why I

know profited from this. I'm sure it's anymore, but I all I can speak with conviction about seven. Wow, by the way, that one of the other things you're gambling an audience to a role. Though, if you get access up Tommy Martino's FBI interviews as I did, what do you think happens when this scandal starts where Tommy Martino becomes the intermediary he easually calls, but is in Costa Rica who's working at a sports book to give him

the fexts every day that they come in. And of course, why wouldn't you have you know, right, why wouldn't that happen? And that's why it's tough to say how many dozens of people by the time you get to March or April o seven, how many people were betting on these games having no clue what the actual conspiracy was, but they were just watching the line. I know I would

have done it. I would have done the same things. Yeah, well that's well, that's that's why, going way back in our interview to your question about the NBA, that's why it's it's almost unthinkable a during the six o seven season, somebody somewhere hadn't heard about this. It's it's it's hard to believe possible, I suppose, but really hard to believe. So how does Batista in the end not end up on a sandy beach somewhere. How does that happen? Well,

of course that's a matter of aversity about it. Like Batista claims that um in the months leading up to him going into drug where we have for the first time in his career, one of the things Batista was proud about was that he never gambled. Ironically, he didn't like gambling and he he wasn't good at it, so he never gambled on his own. He gambled on behalf of other people, but it wasn't his money and it wasn't his picks. Will For the first time ever, he

actually started gambling in early oh seven. Now, of course, not only is a gambling on his own, well, he's not a gambler. He doesn't know what he's doing. He starts betting online poker. And here's where something fascinating and really bad happens, because Batista is managing other people's offshore accounts there in his name, but they're on behalf of his clients of course, so it's really his clients money

he's using. He starts betting big, big poker games online for millions of dollars, and of course he's high on prescriptions, goals, and it's a game of chance anyway, and he's just clicking away. Well, it's not his money, what could go wrong? He so he washes away millions of dollars and the willia to Batista. Uh, he was millions of dollars in debt by the time he went into drug rehab and

left the business. Um. And as I say in the book, Batista says that after he went into rehab, he contacted his clients, each of whom excused excused him of his debts, of his debt for them, uh, and wished him well on his recovery. And I should tell you that since the book came out, one of them through in each mediary, contacted me and said, he may think that I excused him all the best. I'm wishing him well, but I liked my money bag. That could be news about Tista

right there. So he did fifteen months in jail. He is not involved in gambling, to the best of your knowledge anymore. Not only does he say he's not involved, to his experience of getting jammed up in the criminal justice system, spooped a bunch of people. I'm calling you from the suburbs of Philadelphia, and there are a bunch of people around here who left the business convinced that the FBI was not done their investigation. And by the way,

I should tell them that they're right. Uh. The phase has always viewed Batista as the key to the castle. They were hoping to flip him, not necessarily about the NBA any scandal, but because they you knew how that entire massive off shore banking system worked, and that really is a focus of them still to this day, gaming the game. I am devouring this book. In fact, I

can't wait to continue reading. By the way, shout out to my good friend and guest every Wednesday on the podcast on the Benning Dorick, Vegas runner, who is a Philly guy, was the first guy who made me aware of the book as well, and he is endlessly fascinated with the book and it is familiar with many of the characters in the book from his days in Philly. So big shout out to him. I know that you have seen him promoting your book as well. Yes, no,

it's been it's been fantastic. It's always rewarding when people who know the story say this accurate. So last questions, then this is just for me to you. I'm curious about this. What did you find in all of your research, your whole arc through beginning to the completion of this What did you find most fascinating in your researcher What surprised you the most? Well, your audience will laugh at my answer, But I just didn't grasp how much money

was being wagered every day, especially offshore. It's never been discussed. It's it's never been discussed how that money is brought back. That was one of the things that blew me away. Okay, fine, I can understand that somebody sits at home, clicks the mouse and places of betting her hotel, but no one has ever walked somebody through, well, how the heck all that money come back? And so I was just blown away that there are these suburban gamblers who are regular guys.

If people actually sat down as I did with these gamblers, they're not at all what I was expecting. I don't know what other people are expecting. You know, there's a funny line in the book about a friend of theirs going up to Nagness to meet these pro gamblers and expecting to see people who look like their promotions eleven or something desprissing four fat guys in a in a room with the boxes because they just live in front of those computer screens watching the lines move. And you know,

actually that's actually a funny story. In the book, they were based about a block and a hand off of the strip and literally never went to the strip. They had no need to go to the strip. They had runners crews for that, and they had no time for nightlife. They just worked constantly. So I guess for me that was the thing I found so mind boggling was that there were so many people who took this that seriously and that they were betting so much damn money. I

just had no clue. I're so not used to all that, and I made by by the way the reactions of the book are that I'm apparently in the memeing with that most people other than people who really follow gambling had been blown away by the idea that there are people betting millions of dollars every day as a business. Oh, I think you're right. I think mainstream wise, no question about it. That's the prevailing sentiment. And then all of a sudden, you do your research and you find something

quite different. How do you follow this up? Sean? Are you working on another book? Now? Well, I'm torn on this. I actually this is gonna sound silly. Demon The game is not a light read. It's we are in some pages. And yet I had so much material I left out, especially about the real serious mechanics of big time gambling and logistics of it. And I've always planned on rating at the desk and academic paper for an academic journal

about that. But I have so much material I may actually write a book on on the whole I don't know where I called sport, but on the whole science I guess the art and science of mathematical handicapping. But that's actually part to answer questions. To answer your question a moment ago, what I found fascinating somebody like me. I'm a sports fan, and I've had We've all heard people on sports radio for years saying, Okay, well, you know,

Penn States playing Ohio State next week. It's at a higher state, so that's three points for home fielder and

all that stuff. And until I got into this and really hung out the shark gamblers, the whole process of how they are looking at numbers was totally foreign to me, and so I have an entire wealth of information that I could use and I probably will, if not for a paper, certainly for a book on real serious, high end sports handicapping, but actually can say handicapping and mathematical analysis really what I'm talking well, I think I speak on behalf of everybody when I say we look very

much forward to that one. But before we even get a chance to read that book, anyone who has not gotten a copy of this one, I strongly urged them to do so. Gaming the game once again, the story behind the NBA betting scandal and the gambler who made it happen. And I don't know that I did enough justice to that gambler who made it happen the Jimmy

Bautista portion of that book. But you know, for as much time as we spend on the NBA betting scandal, the experiences that led to Jimmy Bautista becoming Baba or the Sheep just really fascinating stuff, Sean, And kudos to you. Just a great book, fascinating reading. Like I said, I'm kind of addicted to it right now. I'm rushing to read more of it later on today. Give that website one more time for everybody, because you've got some great

information on there. Sure it's Sean Patrick rift dot net gaming the game once a d the name of the book. Check it out, Sean Patrick Griffin, Sean, thank you so much for being on the show. Like