Beating The Book: Rufus Peabody

the betters that they became. Each story in its own right fascinating, none more so than that of this gentleman right here. I've known him for quite some time now, one of the most successful sports betters I know, if not the most successful. Rufus Peabody. Great story, interesting story. Uh, he unplays it. He's modest about it. Uh. But I think you'll find it as fascinating as I do, and

hopefully it inspires someone out there. Rufus Peabody on today's Beating the Book Podcast, Enjoy it's a numbers game with your host, Kill Alexander. You want comunits to believe in analytics, Zenner, it is your home for analytics for sports metting analytics live actual sports betting information. It's Gil Alexander Terrus except Channel two oh four, Visa dot Com, the Visa app Foobos laying Game Plus on down the line. Thank you for tuning in on this Wednesday. Later on the show,

coming up, some more college football season win totals, y'all. Yesterday, Chris Felika, the bear for ESPN, was on here to give his thoughts on those that were released by Caesar's. Also some conference futures. Today, Pete Feutach from College Football News will take his dab at what we hope are meaningful prop bets for the coming college football season props in terms of the futures on conferences, but also season

win totals. So people will be here our number two before that, very pumped to have my next guest hang out with us as I channel my inner my inner Bob costas U Roy Firestone here during this global pandemic. Uh. He is a how can I put this? He will He will be modest after I say this, but he's certainly one of the two most successful sports bettors that I know. He'll immediately say, well, then I don't know

enough sports bettors. Uh. You may know him, perhaps as the co host of the Bet the Process podcast that he does with his buddy Jeff ma Uh, it's my old friend Rufus Peatbody. Good morning to you, Rufus. How you do it? Man Um, I'm doing wal Gil, Good morning to you. How are you how San Francisco. Oh, it's good man Ash. You mentioned him live from San Francisco. You've been here, You've been h the spot here in San Francisco. It's I'm well man. San Francisco got this

right early. They shut down before any other city did, and of course got some flak four it. But in the end, I think they they have proven to be ahead of things, and the stats bear that out. So far, we have not picked yet. You're in Boston, right, I am in Boston, where it's you know, I don't think they're a head of things here. I went to the grocery story this past weekend, and maybe ten to fifteen

percent of people have masks. But I went for a walk yesterday and it was close to like people with masks, despite the fact that a lot of people were jogging or running a rollerblading. So I think it's getting better. But I don't think a lot of people are taking that that seriously. In terms of the mask recommendation, well, I'm guessing you asked me this yesterday. How many with the percentage of folks here anecdotally that I think are wearing masks, it's I don't know if it's fifty I

said percent yesterday. It's probably like thirty or to But you just mentioned something that to me is kind of it induces complacency. When the weather is not good, it is very easy to self quarantine. But when it gets sunny outside, dude, they're all over Chrissy Field running here,

people are exercising. And I got the sense yesterday because I've I've been one of these people who who have always you know, looked askance and people who have denied this from the beginning that this is happening and as serious as it is. But yesterday, it's sort of it messes with your brain when it's sunny outside and you're like, huh, it just doesn't feel virusy out here, right. Our brains played tricks on us like that. So I kind of get the complacency thing. I'm a little worried about that.

For a second. Spot, No I agree. I wanted to get a sandwich at my favorite sandwich shop, which is actually still open somehow, because it's like a deli. It's I guess essential you can get. It's all take out anyway. So I was walking back. It was this beautiful spring day and I almost sat down and ate it outside, and I was like, wait, what am I doing. I'm not supposed to sit down at a park bench. Yeah, that's right. It's Gill Alexander Rufus Peabody, our guest today

here on a numbers game at Vista, these sports betting network. Um, so listen, we buried the headline for those who didn't hear you on the show. A couple of weeks ago, you actually tested positive for COVID nights seeing the growth virus um. You said at the time that you had a very mild form of it. You were feeling okay. Are you clear? You and your fiance, I should say, you both sort of clear of any symptoms at this point. Yeah,

I've been clear. It feels like it was a month ago that I had the symptoms, So it's been a long time. We've both been clear symptoms for a while. She has to she she works in the medical profession. She's a doctor, so she has to test positive or test negative twice before she can go back to work. So, um, she's I think you can go get tested today. Uh, they're not retesting me. I've been cleared to resume being I guess, resume going to the grocery store. That's basically

what's good saying doing these days. I was clear to do that, I guess two weeks ago. So they I'm presumed to be negative at this point. Well, we're all glad to hear that. Um, Seriously, when I was a worried about you there, even though I know you said it was mild, but once you hear someone positive, you always, uh worry for obvious reasons. Uh kill you avoided You avoided slow this year, which proved to be a pretty good decision, probably given the fact that I just gave

it to everybody there. Yeah, and you would have given it to me, I'm sure as well. No, for sure, I hope everybody else. I know you mentioned Spanky a couple of weeks ago, who's a better that we all know. I hope he's doing better. I had asked him to come on the show, and he really wasn't feeling up to it at the time. He said he wanted to come on when he felt a lot better. Uh, he was, he was geek to do so, but he just wasn't feeling well. So I think he's I think he's doing better.

I don't know if you've talked to him at all. You know, I've talked to him a little bit, and I think he is doing better. So good, that's good. Okay, that's good. All right. UM. So, obviously the reason you're here is, and maybe it's not so obvious, is that I like to You know, Alan Boston came on the show a few weeks back. I was able to talk to him for two hours, talked to Bob Stole at length. Dr Bob about his handicapping process, how he became the

better that he became. Bill Krackenburger did that in a couple of subsequent weeks when he was on his regular portion of this show. You are one of the more fascinating cases. And I know you probably don't feel that about yourself, um, but I have. I have always felt that way about you, and I think most do. Because you are not typical. You do realize that right like your brain is not the average brain. Gil is there an? Is there a typical sports better? I don't think that. Well.

I think the whole point is everybody is kind of quirky, in nuanced in ways and things differently, and that's why, that's why it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Yes, that's a that's a very clever way of trying to, uh put a false equivalency into what you into your brain versus others. But I understand what you're saying. Certainly, it's a it's an interesting cross section of humanity. I get it. But what I'm getting out with you is your your background

is not typical. Let's let's go back, way back. We'll get to the part that's not typical. I guess it started ultimpically. You grew up I know this much about you, Like myself, you were of that generation, or I should say those two three decades growing up in the DC area where you were a redskin. You were a Redskin fan and an Orioles fan because we were too young for the Senators um and too old for the Nationals kind of thing. So I know you grew up a

sports fan like that. What did your parents do? What do they do, by the way. So my my parents met at architecture school. Actually, my dad is an architect. He runs a small residential design firm, which now he does out of the basement of our childhood my childhood house. UM. And my mother Actually my mom worked at a boarding school, UM, doing administrative stuff that was in Alexander, Virginia I grew up,

but she was home most of the time. She started working there after I went to college, so she was she was very active parent and drove me to sporting events and all those types of things, and was Actually I was born to Mrs Surprisingly Surprisingly I don't have an accent, right, Um, Natchez, Mississippi, and I lived there for five years before before my family moved to the

DC area. So and and two siblings, one sister, one brother if I'm correct, Okay, and but we're all very different, but they're they're both like really really awesome and really talented. I've met your brother, and I know your sister is very talented, so I would I would concur with both of that, Um, both of those comments. But you are

in your own right obviously very talented as well. And I'm not blowing smoke here because folks you know who lends it to this show are probably familiar with you by this point again that the podcast that Rufus co host is called bet the Process wherever podcast aren't distributed. Um, so here's the thing about you. You're super smart. Let me just tell you what Roxy. Do you know what Roxy says about you? Roxy Roxburrow, who's the legendary founder of Las Vegas Sports Consultants, who I was just to

damming with last night from from Thailand. And he didn't say this last night, but I know that he says this of you. Do you do you have any guesses as to what he says about you? What is? What is stock line is? I don't know, he says. He says, I always learned something from Rufus. I never forgot the same way about Roxy. Yeah, I think we all do about Roxy. Um, but when did you know? I guess when you're a kid and you're a sports fan, like like all of us were sports fans when we were kids.

That is very typical. But when when did you know that you were sort of thinking on a level that other kids might not have been. Did that start young for you or was that something that happened only when you got to college age. Um, you know, I think it happened. I mean, I don't think I'm thinking on

a level that's different from other people. I think that there's a lot of people thinking, well, no, I mean to me, I think that if I tried to do what I do and and sort of typical finance markets, I would not be nearly as successful because part of it is the fact that I just love sports and and have always loved the number of side of sports, and it just gives me ideas. I always I'm like, well,

I wonder if this has an effect. It just basically think theories to test, which I remember, like charting people this this is not to things the typical kid does, but I remember watching Orioles games and charting pitches for this is back in like the nineties, charting pitches for um reading baseball prospectives cover to cover, back when it was called UM yeah, yeah, I remember when Richard Hidalgo,

When Richard Hidalgo, remember that guy was on the side. Yes, I do know PD guy, but I reference in my spare time, I like worked on a project basically trying to prove that walk rate was way undervalued and important Um, I guess this is before a little bit before moneyball, I guess, but I'm around that this time when you're trying to figure this out. Um, this was let's see, actually, no, this was early two thousands. I was probably this is

the end of high school, beginning of college. Probably they're there, but the Richard at nine years old? Yeah, no, but but I was, so we would so when I, I guess in kindergarten and first grade, I went to this private school and my parents we had a car. We'd have a car pool to work, and my dad would stop, um and pick up a newspaper from the newsstand every day and I would look at the sports section, read the baseball box scores, and so that was that was

like my daily routine. And I love and I like. My mom was like, I don't know how you understood what those numbers meant, but you somehow like found meeting in them. So I think I've always been into the number side of sports, and so that's kind of driven driven me to to where I am now. But that that's very interesting what you said though, that if you

were in financial markets, you wouldn't be nearly successful. So what you know, what follows obviously then is I guess what you're saying, And I think it's true sports, that the coverage of sports in this country in many ways is so primitive and and even to this day, is primitive,

right in terms of what we focus on. Right, it's the notion of third down conversion, where just throwing out one off the top of my head, the notion that that is some catch all stat that is meaningful without giving an indication it is a third and two is a third and eleven, right, just like one quick example. It's just a very simplified thing that's out there in the mainstream media. And I guess what you're saying is that's what allows you to be successful. So much of

that is that it is just so basic across the board. Well, that and the fact that I feel like I have intuitions for sports that I just don't have for general business stuff because that's sports has been what I've been

exposed to and and what I think about. Whereas and now, like you know, obviously, I'm spending a little more time in finance related stuff now and I talked to other people that are that I think are way smarter than me, who have these intuitions, and man, these guys so smart, like, oh, that makes so much sense. But but I can't, Like, I don't think that myself. Are you betting anything with the stock market on a daily basis during the pandemic? It is betting. I'm not doing any day trading exactly.

But I'm an investor in the stock market. I have for a while. Um the amount I invest in ebbed and float, I guess so I have made the occasional mistake of trying to time it a little bit, and I did. I did sell a lot of stocks back in late February when I thought this is gonna be a lot worse than everybody thought. And so I'm trying to figure out and I put a little bit of money back in a few weeks ago when when the Dow was under twenty. But but now I'm like, I

should have sold more and bought more. So there's still there's that. But I'm trying to figure out what to position. I mean, I'm mostly a buy and hold guy, passive investor, you know van Guard index funds, they have lowest fees, tracked the market, but occasionally I will do some gambling occasionally, and I've done yeah, I've done some. I've done some gambling during during this. I mean, you got where else

is the gambling? I don't know yet. By the way, um, I think I mentioned to this this to you a couple of weeks ago when you were on But I got an update Bookmaker now on an individual uh Maddens simulation about a hundred thousand dollars in handle. So I think it's a fascinating stat because, on the one hand, the reaction of many will be oh my god, degenerates, it's ridiculous, and there's a little part of my reaction

that's that as well. But then you do have the thought right afterwards, is that any less predictable than the actual NFL is free flapping? I haven't watched it, so I don't know. Maybe their patterns, Maybe there's there's ways for betters to get edge edges. I don't I haven't had enough interest yet to sit down and find out.

But I find that fascinating that just from an evolutionary standpoint, if you ever doubted that betting was in our DNA, or if betting was at its worst an addiction, there is or there is your proof right there, or maybe there actually is an angle to it. Well, to me, it just it just says how big their handle must be regularly. You know how they're doing this to keep keep the lights on, I guess, but you know you don't see numbers like you do for New Jersey, Nevada,

for the off shore world. So you you're a we're talking to Rufus Peabody, by the way, um on the show today, and um, you got to high school. I I assume you were a successful student because the shows are not the shows, but the universities that you can apply to. We're probably the entire set of universities you end up at Yale. Um tell everybody what your thesis ended up being there. Well, Gil, before we get to that,

my high school experience was. I mean, I I was lucky that my parents pushed me academically because I was someone that, like my sister, would do extra credit in a class that she already had a hundred in And I wasn't that person. I was someone that I did the bare minimum um to get the grade I needed

to get. And so I knew that to me, like getting into a good college was like sort of the what I was supposed to do, and the challenge, and I knew that I had to get end up with a's at the end of the year and all the courses in my transcript. But but you didn't have to get in a every quarter to do that. In fact, the way it worked, if you got an A went into the systems of four point oh and a V

plus went in is at three point five. And so if you got um in grades were determined by we had four quarters in the final exam, so one fifth for each of those five segments, and so one A and four B plus is averaged out to an A. And so I would look if if that's what I had, I would look just as good as the guy that got a hundred on every test and was the star

of the class. So basically I was I was the guy that flew under the radar here, and and I was like, I worked as hard as I needed to to sort of get the low A. That was what my goal was. And I didn't sort of say it that way, but like I definitely I didn't put in Yeah, I mean I did my German homework for second period, for I did my German homework in calculus class and as well as working on running a bracket contest from

the back of the class in the funny story. Actually the calculus teacher, Mr Nickley until I remember when I asked him for a letter of recommendation when I was applying to college. He said, I assume you don't want me to talk about the fact you're running bracket You're running bracket contests from the back of the class. I was like, you were that kid. You were that kid as well? What's what school? Was this? Rufus? Just so just like I'm familiar TC Williams High School TC Williams.

Wasn't TC Williams featured in the Denzel Washington movie as well? Was that TC Williams? It was Remember the Titans. Remember the Titans are claim to fame. Although our so our football team when I was there was not nearly successful. I think we won maybe four games in four years, and I still remember we were losing I think to nothing it senior year at homecoming at halftime, um, oh man, not good. I wasn't there, though I was. I was a runner. I ran across country and so I didn't

I didn't have to go to any of the games. Luckily, Oh, I could see you running cross country you have that cross country bill? What was the uh so TC Williams had that grading system? I had no idea. I think I still do they still have that system? I'm sure. I mean, I don't know. It's been many years. But but the way the way it works, right because because a's are on a range. But when I found this out,

I mean it was it was a game changer. But three be goes in as a three point oh though, so if you have one B, it's like it's it's a little harder. See, I needed I needed to make sure I got at least b pluses. See this changes everything. Where was perhaps you weren't as smart as I gave you credit for her exactly. See, I was that I was not the superstars to in the class, and I

managed to be like, you know, well rounded. That was the thing everybody was, you know, you know, that was what I everydu was talking about to get into good college and to be well round, to do all these extracurriculars. I just kept busy in general. Like I I refereed. I refereed youth soccer games as a weekend job. I umpired youth baseball. I was, I was in the band, I you know, like I did all these things just because you know, I kept myself busy and I enjoyed

all the sports stuff. I played every you know, I've played sports every season as well as I did UM stats for the basketball team my senior year. I ran their statistics UM department. I guess I don't even know what you call it. So so somehow my senior year I ended up as well as running into a track, and I ended up with four senior letters and four varsity letters in three seasons. So so I graduated with

thirteen varsity letters in twelve seasons as a result of that. So, I mean, I but but it wasn't like with the intention of, yeah, building up my resume. It was because, like, this is the stuff that I wanted to do. Um rufus Peabody. But one of the most successful bettters I know, if not the most successful, mild mannered, average childhood. I guess that's very relatable. Uh, we'll get to what his college thesis was. That's where the betting really goes in

full bore. Rufus Peabody Today on a numbers game at Visa these sports betting network welcome back to a numbers game with you. Alexander Rufus Peabody my guest today on the Numbers game at Visa. The Sports Betting Network will do some college football season win totals in conference futures later with Pete few Tech from College Football News. Rufus, you were telling me off air, first of all thirteen varsity letters in twelve seasons, cross country, indoor track, tennis.

Are you good at tennis? Not anymore? I wasn't great. I was a hustler. I was, I think in my best like number four on our on our on our team, hustled in tennis, hustled the grading system. And what was that you just told me off air. In addition, you were sort of like the reporter of sorts for sports. Oh. I volunteered, I you know, I covered local college basketball games for the local connection newspapers, so to the commuter newspapers out there, so um, the Alexandria Gazette Packett, there

are other ones. And so I would go see like a Mount Vernon versus Hayfield basketball game and write an article for and for free. And I think the sports editor of this guy, Rich Sanders, I still remember his name, must have loved me. And so but it was good because at the time I thought I wanted to be I thought I wanted to be a sports journalist. That's what I thought I wanted to do. And but I

realized I wrote these articles. Looking back at some of the articles I wrote, I see that what I was kind of doing was sort of I wasn't covering just the what happened, but kind of the why it happened. I was like, this team is like they're planned to penetrate and kick out generated open shots, and that's why this happened. So creating narratives, but but also really kind of getting into the analysis part of it. You know.

I had Chris Feliko in the bear from ESPN's College Game Day, Yes Your Day, and I tried to do the same thing with him and and and it was a fascinating story how he got to ESPN. And I just think there's so much to inspire young people with with these stories, because someone inevitably, and probably multiple people in all of these cases, will hear you, will hear Chris, and will just be like, Yes, this is exactly who I am. I should embrace this. Maybe I was. Maybe

I'm not the coolest kid in the room. But if this guy became the greatest No, no, serious, And I don't say that disparagingly because I relate to all of this stuff in different ways, right, but we're kind of the same type. The other thing you mentioned that is so common to do those of us who bet sports and bet sports seriously and in your case professionally, is you ran you I don't want to gloss over this detail. You were running an n C double a bracket from

the back of the class. Is that what you were doing? Yeah? I was. Yeah, what was the format? Do you remember? I'm not sure. I think we gave bonus points to under two picking underdogs, but you know, I think it was like five bucks or something, and people gave me the brackets. And this is before, this is before everybody had laptops and everything like that, So I would I would have to go through manually and check, you know, which which picks one and which picks lost. And here

here's what I always find interesting about that stuff. So in five this will date me. I was a huge Georgetown fan. That was the year that Georgetown was unbeatable, right, like they were the behemoth. I didn't even know anything about betting, odds at the time, but somehow instinctively I knew. I went around all my classmates and I'm like, I got Georgetown, you got the other sixty three teams or forty seven, whatever was at the time. I think it was the first year, if I'm not mistaken of sixty

four might have been the next year. I can't remember. I think it was the first year, but I said, I got Georgetown, you got the other sixty three teams, but you have to give me five like you have to give me five times the profit. If I went like, I just didn't. I just knew it somehow in eately and you just mentioned that you rewarded upsets. Did you even know that from anywhere else? Or was that just something you came up with. I don't know. I feel like I wouldn't have come up with that on my own.

I'm not that smart, but I think it was one. It was one format that people used for these things because I didn't want like I liked picking the upsets, and I had friends that kind of like that too, and so I think we wanted it to be more interesting. All right, So you go to Yale and I'm sorry to fast forward through your life because I want to get to the to the betting and your approach. But you're at Yale, obviously one of the great Ivy League schools in this country, and you decide to do as

your thesis. First of all, was your major economics economics, economics, And I was either gonna be political science, history or economics, I thought, I ended up I ended up liking economics and liking the the approach, the tools that gives you to approach things, the kind of the way of thinking, not necessarily doing it towards you know, I don't care about interest rates or forecasting the macroeconomic climates or anything like that, but but I like the sort of the way.

I liked the micro economics side of it and the sort of and that approach has been useful for me as a sports better for sure, Yeah, much more practical. I ended up being a political science major and knew while I was a political science major that I would never apply it to anything. UM, So good for you for that. So what ends up being your thesis then? So my thesis actually ended up being UM on the

psychological inefficiencies of Baseball betting market. That basically process was I'm looking at these pictures here the process was undervalued and outcomes were over value. But initially Gil I got money from Yale. They actually paid for me to go out to Las Vegas for this internship with Las Vegas Sports Consultants where I was gonna I was gonna be doing my senior thesis on like on corruption and amateur athletics and like point shaving and stuff. But I kind

of I want a different direction. All right, let's put a holder in that. I want to hear all about that. We'll talk about that after the break, and then we'll get into when Rufus first knew he could make a living at this, what was sort of the moment he knew that he had some note iety all of that. Rufus Pabody on a numbers game right here at Visa the Sports Betting Network. Welcome back to a numbers game

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of enough to join us for the hour. I might need an extra segment after this, Rufus, so it might bleed to the second hour, if you can afford me that time. Uh, just because I want to flesh this out for first thing. And I probably buried the headline with you. I don't know if I buried the headline. I'm sort of big tongue in cheek there. But your name is Rufus Peabody. How many people? Uh, because you sound like a horn section player in Earth Wind and Fire, Like,

how many people hear your name? And that he played clarinet? Yeah, I should have asked you that was what clarinet? Um interesting interesting name? Do people stop? First of all, your co host, Jeff ma cam't pronounce it. Do you know this about Jeff? It's not Peabody, it's Peabody, right, I mean, he's a Boston guy, so he likes he likes to represent former Boston guy. He lives. He's out there with

you and in the on the Bay area. But you know he was Yeah, I don't know if you know this, but he went to m I t no, I did familiar I've heard that before. I am familiar with that story. All right, So your thesis is on the inefficiencies in the baseball betting market and what was your intention to go to Las Vegas and do what? Um, my intention was to go to Las Vegas and work for Las Vegas Sports Consultants. That's actually that was That was well,

it wasn't my original intention. It was never my original intention. I I never even knew that. I didn't even know. I didn't know much about the world of sports betting at all. I remember actually I think I signed up for my first off shore sports book account, like back in maybe two thousand six or something, and I was like, I'm gonna and I think I lost a hundred dollars really quickly, I put I think I still remember I betted on like the Angels laying minus one fifty or something.

I was like, oh, there, they have to be more likely than six, so there's no analytics behind it. But I didn't know much about the gambling world at all, So I wasn't one of these people that was like a gambler their whole life. And and I think, like, I'm not naturally gambler. I've always been sort of conservative financially. I naturally am someone that loves games, though, and so gambling is kind of a game. And so when I when I found out this whole world existed, I like,

you know, I kind of dove into it. But but I still, even after doing the internship at Las Vegas Sports Consultants and getting an offer to go work there full time, I kind of explored my options. Um, I applied for some jobs in finance, which I didn't get, and and then so then and so backup Las Vegas. Yeah, I mean I wasn't. I'll be honest. The first time I had one of these sort of finance consulting interviews when they were like, how many cell phone towers do

you think there are in the United States? Like that kind of question. That was the specific one I got, And I didn't even know what a cell phone tower was at the time. I was like, like, I had no idea how cell phones actually worked. It was magic to me. But would you love stuff like that? Yeah? Well, the thing is the funny thing is I was so I bombed on that, but I feel like i'd be I'd be so much better at that stuff now. But I think sports betting in a way kind of taught

me how to think. That's interesting. How did you become aware of Las Vegas Sports Consultants if you weren't a gambler to begin with, Like, that's a pretty obscure thing, especially back then. Yeah. Gene Wojahowski for ESPN dot Com wrote an article about LVSC. This was it was during March Madness, I think of two thousand seven or maybe two six I think I remember this. Yeah. He basically he was embedded at LVSC during selection Sunday and I think the whole thesis of the article was like you

think you know sports, like you're actually square. These guys are the sharps and and and this is like this is how they work. And I was like, this seems so cool. It seems like academia for for sports kind of and and I was like I wanted to Oprah would say you're aha moment or reading that sort of thing. So when when you got there and let's be honest here and you spent some time there, were you shock did how primitive it all was? Yeah? I was shocked that as a as an economics major, I had more

of a statistical background than anybody. But the thing is, these people are all they were very very smart, but they um and they just didn't have the sort of

foremal statistics. They couldn't run like significance tests and stuff like that, right, but they but they were very very good with numbers and and what's interesting is I think Kenny White had me like test out something to try to figure out the value of three point shot versus a rebound versus an assistant basketball basically come up with some formula for him um to test what his was. And the funny thing is like it almost matched exactly what he had developed just from his intuition, which was

just absolutely incredible to me. So you have a bunch of people that spent their careers out, you know, looking basically making numbers on sporting events, and they had their system and and it was logical, and they were very very smart people. Um, but isn't that amazing? I'm sorry, go ahead, no, no, you know you said that about Kenny. Kenny is a frequent guest on the network uh here at visn um so Kenny still and Kenny does things on his own CBS sports line, I believe as well.

But what you just said to me is very interesting. And I always say that the reason I started doing a podcast on sports betting so many years ago and I'm doing this show now is just everything about the

subject fascinates me. And you just hit on one of my favorite things, which is and I always use you, by the way, in this example, I say, I know the most mathematical guys in the world who do things, you know, on one side of the spectrum to approach approach sports betting, and then on the far end of the spectrum, there are guys that just from you know, being involved in it for as long as they have

some more scammy than others. We can get into that later. Um, but some just by sheer experience, right, And oftentimes those two approaches end up at the same answer. That's amazing, isn't it Like it's endlessly fascinating me. No, it really is that there's not sort of it's not one size fits all and everybody. And by the way, the fact that you consider me the mathematical guy is very interesting

because I don't consider myself like the mathematical guy. I'm a guy that you know, I have somewhat of a statistical background, but I'm I'm not gonna I mean, there's there are a lot of people that are way way better at the at the math than I am. For sure Dr Bobs as well as a math guy too. Sometimes Uh, he's we established that he was not actually a trained physician last time he was on UM, so I want to get into that room. Is because what I'm curious about after the break is so you're at

Las Vegas Sports Consultants. You have your first entree into the business, this world of Las Vegas. You come all the way over from Connecticut and are immersed in this and at some point something must have triggered that said to you, I might be better off on the other side of this, I might be better as a better O R E er. We'll get into that how that's would have clicked for you if it was a sudden

thing or something that happened over time. Rufus Peabody profiling the better right here on a numbers game at Visa Welcome back to a numbers game with Jill Alexander. No Masters, No problem. The golf issue for Point Spread Weekly is ready for download today and among the golf features Matt Human's previews, the potential second Tiger versus film Mano a Mano matchup West Reynolds, handicapping all ninety six golfers in the Masters field in November. Say that again. Masters Field

in November and available for futures wagers Plus. We get your prep for the NFL Draft and wait for it table tennis. If you're so inclined to bet it, now's the time to become a Visa Plus subscriber. It's free. You won't have to decide what you want to do, pay or cancel until at least one of the major sports returns just go to visa dot com slash subscribe to sign up. That's Visa dot com slash subscribe. Rufus.

We were saying off air, and there was poor form of me to ask you to stay an extra segment while we were on air. Um, but pesky commercials get in the way. I wish it were podcast for and we could just fly through it. But we're still in college or which still we just got past. Um. But so so you're at Las Vegas sports consultants, You're around smart people. But at some point you have to realize, um, all right, maybe maybe my and this is my words.

It's not it's never gonna be your words. But you're like, my brain is bigger than everybody else is here. No, okay, I'm just but but but I had a different approach. I think you have a different proach. So what yeah, when did it trigger where you're like, hey, maybe I maybe I should actually be a better So at the time, so I was making a salary of twenty five tho dollars a year, so I was scraping by and I had a little bit of I had a little bit of savings. Um, but I was very lucky that I

was very privileged that I did not have. UM, I didn't have any student loans or anything to pay off. So that was you know, so I was in a fortunate position that you know where if I did, I wouldn't probably would not have been able to take a job making dollars a year. So UM, I was betting, betting props, betting derivatives. I've built out money line charts.

I remember I would get off of work at LVSC and then and this is before smartphones, I'd have a list of m I'd write down a list of of bets and casinos they need to go to, and that's the place, and and go there and be you know, betting a hundred bucks fifty bucks, three hundred bucks um pop. And and also doing some card county and playing blackjack and trying to slow slowly build a bank roll. And

I you know, I had some success on props. In fact, the super Bowl of the it was the two thousand nine Super Bowl, so Steelers and Cardinals, which to this day I still have not actually watched, where I's pretty good. Want to check it out, seriously, Uh, you know, I just know what the final stat line was. I didn't know that Larry fitz jailed was like shut down for three quarters and then went off in the fourth quarter.

But I just saw that that line. Yeah, that was that was an un it that didn't win for me. But but I I had Let's see, I had about ten thousand dollars to my name. I borrowed ten thousand dollars from a friend, and I had someone that worked invest forty dollars in me um where I was getting a twenty percent free roll, and which is honestly quite quite generous on the free roll if you think about

it's one game, like I was quite diversified. But but I ended up hitting Gary Russell to score the first touchdown and I think twenty five to one odds or something like that, and for uh, you know, and that was that was a pretty big hit because I had to think a total like fifty fifty some thousand invested and I think the return to profit of like seven thousand, so um, so it was you know, and not obviously, I mean I think I made eight thousand after that,

since you know, I had to pay people back and and all that. But but that was kind of I remember thinking at the time, like like where am I going with this job. Like my parents were fine with me moving out here that they knew this is kind of my passion, but they wanted My dad would always say, he's just concerned that I was. I wasn't um that it wasn't like a dead end, right that they're basically what's my plan? And so I didn't really know what

my plan was. But I felt like if I had bombed and that super Bowl, it might have been worth saying, well, what am I actually doing here? And so I think that's super Bowl? Though without that super Bowl, it wasn't just the fact that that I did well, it was it was actually a chance meeting I had that kind of set the stage for me to bed for a living. Where I was in line at the Golden Nugget betting or to bet props. Actually they just released their sheet.

I happened to just randomly be there. It was the friday. It was that first Friday after conference championships. Um, I'm and this one guy was already there, Like the sheet comes out, I grab it. He he's already in line. Um he uh? And he was. I think he spent forty minutes betting props and ordered. Uh. I think he ordered like a jack and coke from a Cotta waitress while he was up there betting his props. Um, and the Cotto waitress came back with the drink and he

was still betting the props. So um, this was he was. And so I when I ran into him at the Palms, I saw him asking about NBA props at the Palms that in March. I kind of followed him out of the book, and as he tells the story, he thought I was going to try to mug him in the parking lot, and so he had his hand on his mace, and because you're still exactly right, I was like, really, um, but but I he he was the professional sports veteran,

and he kind of introduced me to that world. And I threw him, you know, and I met him and his partners and sort of things kind of went from there. If you were name was Gary Russell, well what do you what do you say to him? Do you hug him? You know? Yeah, Gary Russell in a way is kind of an m VV in my life. If I guess you would have thought, so, okay. So that's a great story and and certainly I understand how it it triggers

it for you. Were you successful across the board? Did you realize very quickly that you were better at other supports than others? How did that go from there? So so my I guess I had my baseball model I had built when I did my senior thesis. So the senior thesis actually was looking at inefficiencies in the market, psychological inefficiency. So it's basically, rather than predicting a game, it was predicting what was going to be miss priced based on sort of the safer metric stuff at the time.

So the fact that a picture that had allowed a high batting average and balls in play had been unlucky and was probably going to be undervalued by the market, and a picture with a high strike out you know, and I got a picture with the low strike out rate in the high walk rate but had been good on batting average of balls in play, like the Matt

Cain's of the world, would probably be overvalued. So there'd be value was Matt Caine for years and so yeah, he managed to sustain it for quite a while before he dropped off a cliff, right, So did the Jared Weaver type too. But uh, so, I I guess at the end of that though, I actually built a model as well, which I had been working and refining, and so I, um, so I guess I got my start. Um. I got a twenty free roll from UM from this

this betting group and to bet baseball. And a month into it, we had they had made or I should say I had made about I think dollars was my cut, and they were like, why are you still you know, why are you still working at LVSC? Why not? Uh? Why not? You know you're cutting your own throat at that point. So they basically gave me a full time offer. I would continue get um free roll and on the

other sports they're doing as well. And so I went from there until I, you know, had enough to buy into the bank roll and then ye and then the rest of the rest of his Wray still did good relationship. You still have a good relationship with the guys you used to work with. Yeah, fantastic guys. Fantastic So your first so correct me if I'm wrong, and you'll tell me. Here here's what I know about you that your staple sports, and maybe there are more that I don't know about,

but I know you to be a baseball guy. I know you to be a golf guy. You love betting golf. But the thing that you and you touched on it by your story about standing in line there at the Gold Nugget. The thing that you gained notoriety for first was betting super Bowl props and was at the Washington Post that did a piece on you. What year was that? I guess that was to the two thousand eleven Super Bowl. Very google bow Yes for super Bowl props? How did you?

How did you know? You know? How that whole thing originated by the way that the Washington Post store was was I was trying to pimp out the Massy Peabody ratings to Dan Steinberg at the Washington Post, and so he ended up with without really having much success, but he ended up coming to me and was like, Hey, I actually want to do a story and like a better betting on all the Super Bowl prop stuff, and so that's kind of it kind of happened from that.

But but the Massy Peaple, the Massy Peabody thing was was the reason I got in touch with him. The first place to explain to people, because we have two minutes here before the Blake the brig explained to people. So Kate Massey was your professor, one of your professors at Yale. This is my senior thesis advisor. Oh, I see, And so the two of you got together at some point to do these ratings. So he was he was a mentor to me, and he approached me in I

guess the summer of two thousand ten. He had been approached by this guy, Michael Saltheno, who's a reporter um for it was a reporter for Meadaland's media group, which to stuff for the Wall Street Journal, and he had this idea to do quantitative NFL ratings, and so he approached Kate about it, and he was like, I know the guy that I want to do this with, and that was me. And so I think Kate initially said that, you know, I would I would do I would do nine per cent. You know, I would have to do

nine of the work. But um it was something like fifty percent the ideas of the work. As he comes four peabody. Yeah, that's another copulation. Yeah exactly. I mean, your kid's a kid's a heavyweight in that world. So all right, when we come back, Rufus, I want to get into when you first knew then that you could make a living at this. How you felt about that first notoriety in the Washington Post? What you're betting? If we had a full sports calendar, what you would actually

be betting? Would you be betting every sport year round? Or what sports do you focus on? Uh? And then what this is probably a whole another tentacle of this, what kind of moves your needle today, Like as you look to your future, will you be betting sports for the rest of your a's or uh? Does a guy like you who has a pedigree from Yale and is a thinker, um, introspective, analytical? Do you have your site

set on other things beyond sports betting? You and I used to have conversations about this back in the day. A lot curious where your heads at rufus Peabody Right here on a numbers game at Visa. It's on numbers game with your host Gil Alexander wants to believe in analy It's it is Gil Alexander our number two of a numbers game right here at Visa and the Sports Betting Network series Sex and Channel two four, Visa dot Com, the Visa app, Foo Boa Sling Game plus Profiling Rufus

peabody uh this morning. UM. I don't know. If we have a Rufus still up on video, we might not be able to say it's pretty, but we we can certainly still talk to him, and we can flash pictures of his uh, his life uh in front of us as we talked to Rufus. Um. And let me just sort of kick it into what you have learned about yourself.

I remember you telling me on more than one occasion, and I've sat with you on a college football Saturday back in the day when you're just betting rampantly, um, and you always used to say, you know, if I insertain my opinion or my emotions into things, or my feelings or my thoughts, it usually doesn't go as well for you. So you're you're super, You're super by the numbers, and I'm curious, do you consider your approach excuse me,

very complicated. So it occurs to me that for people listening to this and they're like, Okay, this is super inspiring, I want to be just like this guy. I'm just worried I'm not as smart as this guy and I don't have the background that he does. Do you consider what you do complicated. Is it generally simple to you, like, like, what's the threshold? Yeah, that's a good question. It kind of is complicated and simple at the same time. So the framework is simple. I'm not someone that is. I'm not.

It depends on the sport, of course, but like for football, I'm not simulating. I know people that are, but I'm not simulating a matchup between a left tackle and a right defensive end. Um, I'm not. I'm not simulating at a play level for football either. Um. What I'm doing is contextualizing. I'm I'm contextualizing performance and basically trying to figure out what is predictive and what isn't and from

they're building a model. And so it's um and and then and honestly you can get into the weeds on any one individual part. But but I guess the thing is in the massy pebody. I mean, the kind of the kind of basis of that was was we're gonna do something simple, but we're gonna do it well. And so we focused at the beginning on four only four different stats. It was we had rushing passing play success in scoring efficiency, and we actually ended up building a

model that there was it was quite good. It It did well for for many many years against the against the NFL spreads, and it was just literally based on those four stats, but adjusting for opponent quality, figuring out how much how predictive it is, um, you know, adjusting for the fact that, as you said, like third and two is very different than third and twelve and so UM. And so it really comes from UM at each stage being saying what is skill? What is luck? How can

I quantify this? And so the model at the end is a sum of all these different things where weighted bit by how predictive they are. And so UM, I don't know if you want to call that simple or complicated, because you can you can dive, you can, I mean, you can get really really deep in like in anything. I mean you can say, well, you know this ninety touchdown pass to Wes Welker on the screen, like was because this defender fell down? Should we really credit this

guy with ninety yards? Like predictively speaking things like that, what what is skill? What is luck? What is quantifiable? And I would add UM otherwise stated what is sustainable? What is not sustainable? We're talking to Rufus Peabody's Kiel Alexander right here on the numbers game at Visa in the Sports Betting Network. Was I right when I said baseball golf props are still your bread and butter? Or

am I missing something? No, You're right, I've kind of dabbled in some other stuff, but I've I've sort of gotten a little more into the DFS world recently as well, and over the last year. Yeah, I wish I had had looked into it earlier. Actually, I think there are some real opportunities there especially, I mean there still are, but I think there were even more opportunities, you know, five years ago or south that that I missed out on.

But I was actually planning and taking this season off of baseball because I am focused on some some other things. I'm trying to I'm trying to devote more time to things that are gonna pay off long term. And honestly, at this point, I'm not sure baseball is one of those things anymore, at least baseball betting. There's there's just there. There is so much data out there, and there's a lot of really smart people attacking it, and and so I just don't I don't see myself building a business

around it. Or anything. And so I'm trying to fit, like you mentioned, talking potentially about other things, and I'm trying to figure out where where kind of I'm going in this industry. I think when you do anything for long enough, it gets a little bit um, I don't want to say stale, but but it it becomes a little bit tedious and repetitive. And so I'm I'm trying to and I got in well, I would say I got in at the right time, but I feel like if I had gotten in ten years earlier would have

definitely been the right time. It feels like, you know, it gets harder and harder to win, you know, every year, and so I'm just trying to I don't know if I'll still be able to. I don't know if I'll still be a winning veteran in ten years. And so I'm trying to figure out what I you know, I'm relatively young. I'm thirty four. I want to figure out what i want to do with the rest of my life.

So I got your whole life in front of you, as as our parents would say, and it is really true at thirty war um, and I think, you know, look just right, there is also something that should be just emphasized the fact that you have the ability to sort of self assess and assess the market in front of you and say, um, these things don't last forever. And I think you're right. You know when you say

it was ten years before. Listen, I hear stories when when we talked to Roxy and Chrissy and all these these guys who have been in the industry from its inception. I mean, imagine what it was like then. Alan Boston can tell you stories. So I think that that awareness is also what makes you successful, the fact that you know that, um, there are other factors. It's not just you, right, it's it's the general market, and that is always changing.

I've said often on the show Baseball. Just five years ago, I would have said it's my favorite sport period to bet, And now I'm like the way this game has changed. With pitching, it's just so different. For goodness sake, some teams start games with closers. Now I call them they're opener. So it's it's totally different to quantify when when folks come in to the bullpen. Now it's much earlier than it used to be. It's a whole bunch of things,

so you recognize that things are evolving. So then you know, you and I used to have discussions about bigger picture stuff beyond the industry that you you didn't know. Did you want to spend the rest of your life betting sports? You struggled, If I'm correct, and I believe I'm characterizing this correctly, you struggled with the you know, was it meaningful enough to do it for the rest of your days on Earth? Talk about that if you could for

a second. But you also just mentioned within the industry, so maybe you're not completely thinking of one day leaving the industry. What is it that that that is passionate for you now within the industry, and then what do you think about outside of it? What what am I pass Okay? I think the thing I'm most passionate about in the industry right now is the nonprofit idea, the the American Betts Coalition that UM that I've been working on with with Captain Jack, among other people, UM, Captain

Jack Cars and Twitter. He's really really smart guy, and he is more plugged into the legal sports betting landscape than anybody I know. It's it's crazy how he knows what he does. I don't. I don't know how he knows all these things, like, but he knows everything. I asked him. I asked him, I said, when you come on the show, what is it that you want to

talk about? And I didn't expect him to answer that, and and I've followed he said, he goes, oh, yeah, all the legal all the different you know, ramifications in every jurisdiction, that kind of thing, which I didn't expect that to be the answer. And I followed him on that since then, And he is your right bar none the the top authority. I would say all that he might for sure, and he's he's actually i'll plug you know.

He's he's starting a YouTube channel and he I think, um, he's doing these Friday webcast lebinar things where he's trying to make people people better, better to help their process. So he's he's he's a great follow on Twitter. But

I'm passionate about that. I think it's something that because I've always kind of been outspoken about, UM, I guess fairness in the industry, and and that's largely been directed at touts and and my stance on the town industry is I think pretty well nown UM I don't need to go into detail on it, but I mean, I think because I'm curious about that with you, so you have always been passionate about it. You and I have certainly talked about it before, uh, in some more contentious

situations than others. For those who don't know, Um, but do you ever think to yourself because because the only pushback I ever gave you one because I think the cause is a good one, right, I think we all agree, well, this is an industry that, for you know, in history has just been a horrible one generally speaking. I guess my only pushback with it was, boy, you're really trying to save the world? Is that really something you want

to get into? And then the other thing that I that I was super questioning of was be careful not to throw every human being into this same barrel. Right, those were the only two things I would push back on. So I don't know, maybe maybe you are as passionate, Maybe you listen to that and didn't care or thought I was full of it. I don't know what is

your approach to it now? No, I mean I think it's hard to have a one size fits all approach to anything, right, I mean there's always room for nuance, And I think that's a good point, But I mean, I just think in general, it's just not a sustainable business model because if you're if you're, if you are a successful handicapper, you're giving out quality information, you're going to be moving lines in the vast majority of your subscribers are not gonna be able to get down at

the price you listed you And I don't know that the way markets, you know, markets are efficient enough that that if you're if you're taking the worst price, it's gonna be really hard to win laun term. And so I mean, obviously we all know the Vegas days of the world. Are you know that's that's you know, those are salesmen the obvious and yeah, right, you know, scammers and like he's a marketing genius and that's what you know,

he's not a winning sports better um. But I just think even if you are, even if you do have good information, I think it's it's sort of the more successful you are, or the better better you are, the harder becomes to sort of maintain or to build a to sort of build yourself as a talent um, at least to do it in a sustainable way and so. But but I think right now, I mean, the American Betters Coalition isn't about talents as much. I mean, it's

about consumer protection for better as largely. And I guess protecting better is from tals is one asment of that. But the bigger part is just the opportunity we have now given legalization is happening in the majority, or is happening or is in the process of happening in the majority of the states right now, and so UM, I think it's it's an opportunity UM to get it right, and I think unfortunately we're we're not really doing it. The people that are writing these laws are essentially UM

being educated on sports betting by lobbyists. And these are not lobbyists for betters. These are lobbyists for UM, for operators, for leagues, for data providers, for you know B two B like the Canbies and the sp text of the world right and so so betters don't really have a voice, and you end up with with legislation that ends up, you know, hurting betters. I mean, you look at a state like New Hampshire and the Draft Kings has a

monopoly there. Betters don't have any other options. And so the whole point is if you want the US sports betting market to be competitive, you need to have it. You need to um it needs to kind of make inroads into the offshore world. I think, because I think a lot of people don't you know, I know there's the people that that that hate on the off shore world, um and and say that that they aren't subject to the same task as in regulations, so they'll always have

a competitive advantage and they can offer credit. But at the same time, you know, people have to it's you know, your your trusting. You have to trust some site in Aruba or Costa Rica wherever it is right and so UM. But I think if you want to if you want to compete against the off shore, you need a good product. And I think when you see sort of these monopolies, UM, I think these books are not really doing that. They're just trying to compete against the other folks the United

States or in their state. And so I just don't think there's gonna be the same innovation in the state like New Hampshire where you only have one operator, whereas in New Jersey where you have a you know, a ton of different operators. I think it's better for the consumer. And so anyway, sorry, I didn't I didn't mean to ramble on that. But no, no, no, no, as you as you talk about that, I mean that really gets me, Jazz. I mean, look, you were you and I are from like d C leaps to mind as one of the

more embarrassing jurisdictions, right in terms of what what they're doing. UH. And you bring up the off shore point, and I try to list. Look, I try to do this on a numbers game all the time. I don't know what others do, but I bet, I bet you know when sports is going on over three days a year and fifty days a year, I mean, that's what that's what I do. This is relatable to those who listen to this show. And two, you know, to not act like offshore as a thing and in some respects a good thing.

UH is doing this inauthentically. And you know there was a statement made by the president of the American Gaming Association over the weekend. I'm not sure if you caught it, and I don't want yeah, I don't want to disparage anyone, but just the it reeked of not knowing some facts, right, like it just it started at a point that just seemed disingenuous on a few levels. Not maybe not disingenuous, maybe just ignorant, maybe just someone who doesn't bet themselves,

who was saying some things that were just false. Right, Um, odds are better offshore, Uh in the reputable places. You know. That was one of the statements that leaps to mine where I'm just like, this is just depth to me.

I don't know if you have the same reaction of that. Well, I think you have to judge people what they say based on their based on their motivations and their incentives, you know, and if if it's on Twitter, someone who uh, you know, if who works for a site that get has affiliate deals with legal sports books, is is trashing the offshore world that that probably you know, there's probably a reason he's doing that him or right. I mean, so I think it's you have to look at people's motivations.

I truly believe that. I Mean there are people that um, back during the before the financial market financial sorry, the housing crisis, back you know, the two thousand eight financial crisis, Um, we're justifying what they were doing and saying, um, I'm trying to actually, I'm I'm trying to remember that example. But basically, no, people, I mean people that were selling these mortgage backed securities and everything saying they were, you know,

the next great thing. And and there's people that people can justify a lot of things, right and so, um, I guess you. I mean, you have to take the motivations into consideration, the fact that what's paying their paychecks. So I think it's that simple. And I don't think I'm not saying these people like, I'm not saying people that have the opinion that the off shore world is bad or good, you know, or or wrong or anything

like that. I'm just saying that you have to you start looking at things through a certain lens after a while, um, just based on your motivations incentives. I think it just happens naturally. I don't think I'm not trying to say that people. I'm not trying to say it's a conscious thing. Yeah, and I'm not listen, I'm not again, I'm not trying to disparage anyone. I guess what I'm saying is you have to start at some sort of factual basis, right,

like not every nothing's black and white. Uh not all is evil over there and all is good over here. In fact, in many respects quite the opposite. So we have to I think your cause, I guess what I'm saying is is a very as you point out, what a moment in time to do that of all times, right post legalization here as jurisdictions come online one after another, hopefully we get sports back sooner than later. So Rufus and again we're talking to Rufus Peabody, who co host

the Bet the Process podcast with Jeff ma. I leave you with this, and I could go on and talk to you for hours. I always enjoy talking to you. But you and I used to I don't know if you remember this. Um, we used to go to this restaurant there in Vegas. It had I want to say, it was like a New Orleans. Um. It was a Cajun place, right right, Lola's That's right, which, by the way, did not it did not make it onto Aaron Kessler's Bracket and Rhythm Kitchen, another Cajun place did. So it

is a seven seed. I don't know if you saw it. You know our friend Aaron Kessler, Yes, yeah, he did a bracket of you know, March Madness for for best restaurants in Las Vegas. Anyway, Lo Lolas didn't make it into the field, and Rhythm Kitchen was the seven, so I was upset about that. Anyway, I gotta I gotta find that. I gotta find Kesler's bracket, because I'm sure there are. Here's the thing with those kinds of brackets, though you can only put in what you've been to.

I guess on those brackets, and there's always gonna be omissions, even if you know, for anybody who does I want to see that. But Lola's big oversight on on this part maybe has never been there. But you used to say, and we have about nineties, about thirty seconds here for sixty seconds, I used to say, you wanted to do things beyond this. Do you still feel that way? Obviously you have a passion what we just discussed. But do you ever I mean, I doubt you'll do that, you know,

solely for the rest of your life. Do you ever think about other things? Is there some other arena that interests you? You're right, I mean, and so arena besides sports betting? I mean, yes, I do think I want to do something business related Um, I think it would be sports or sports betting related, probably in some capacity, just because I feel like that's kind of where I've been in this for ten years. I feel like that's kind of where my expertise is. I in something else,

i'd kind of be starting starting a new in a way. Obviously, the American Betts Coalition is not gonna be a career. That's that's something that's that is not going to make money. It's a nonprofit. That's something that I want to do kind of is something to give back. But but I'm looking at a few different things, but they are in sort of the sports world, still in the sports analytics space,

all right. So that I mean, I don't know, Maybe maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like you've you're more comfortable in your own skin now than you were maybe five years ago. Is that true? I think so? Or maybe I just realized that, I uh that, I don't know. It's it's a lot harder to transition into something completely new. And the fact that is, I I still you know, I like sports and and I've I've talked with Jeff

a lot about this. Actually, Um, Jeff and I have had a lot of discussions and he has just great because he has he has strong opinions about things. He may not agree with them, but he's going to give you his opinions. Yes, yes he will. Um, Rufus again, Sorry about my voice. I can't thank you enough. Um again, Bet the process is the name of the podcast. Congratulations, I know you're engaged. We talked about that last time.

Congratulations in advance on your upcoming wedding and more than anything, man, UM, so glad to hear that you and your your bride to be are doing well after testing positive. Hopefully her test is negative today and all goes well there. Man, Thanks so much, Rufus girl, thanks so much for having me. I always will always enjoy talking to you, likewise at rupus peabody on Twitter. By the way,