Sound On: Ukraine Counter-Offensive, Defending Trump

DC's top name. This is Artemus Launch Control Launch Rector Charlie Pakfault tops and has called a scruff when you're dealing in a high risk business and space flight is risky, and that's what you do. Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. The counter offensive begins in Ukraine. Welcome to the fastest hour in politics, as the Ukrainian military launches a long anticipated assault on Russian forces to retake land. Will it move US closer or further away

from a diplomatics alution. We'll talk with John Herbst, former US Ambassador to Ukraine, now with the Atlantic Council. Later, the Justice Department says it's filter team has finished reviewing the documents seized at Mara Lago. Well out the latest from Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson, who's knee deep in Donald Trump's legal challenges. Analysis from the panel today. The signature panel is in place. Bloomberg Politics contributors Genie Chanzano

and Rick Davis were with us for the hour. Ukraine starts pushing back near the city of Curson now in the long awaited counter offensive aimed at recapturing ground that Russia occupied in the early stages of the war. Remember we're six months in. As we receive word as well that inspectors from the u n's nuclear watchdog will be headed to the plant that we have been hearing about. Zapparisha.

John Kirby, National Security Council spokesperson at the White House, Hello, briefing today with some reporters on zoom and called on Russia to honor the agreement to let the inspectors in US insured insure safe, unfettered access for these independent inspectors. We also believe the Russia should agree to a demoturn sent around the plant. As we said many times, require plan is not locations of combat operations. In a tweet,

the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency says. Inspectors will be at the nuclear power plant later on this week. A special conversation about all of this now with the former US Ambassador to Ukraine, John herbs Is back with us, of course now Senior director of the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center. John's joining us from Lithuania with Congressional staff fellows. They're meeting with officials and activists to talk about Russian aggression

in Ukraine and throughout Europe for that matter. Ambassador, welcome back to Bloomberg. Radio is the most important issue right now. What's happening at this nuclear plant? How can the US help from a diplomatic standpoint to get these in spectors in Well, what's happening at the nuclear power plants, which Russia has taken control of and placed weapons in and around and fired missiles in Ukraine from from that area is very dangerous. But I think we're on the step

to reducing the danger. Uh. The United States has been very active diplomatically putting pressure on Moscow for this additional danger that its war of aggression in Ukraine is creating, And as a consequence, it looks like we can't say for sure, but it looks like Moscow has agreed that the I a e A, the international agency which pursues of nuclear issues, will have access, will be able to inspect the plant. Well, I guess we'll learn a lot at that point. I don't know you know exactly what

happens next. But as you just heard John Kirby suggested, demilitarized zone in that area? Is that is there even a chance for that who negotiates that at this stage of the war. Um. I don't rule it out, but I would not count it in either. Um if if such the thing is negotiated, I suspect the U in the I a e A will be the negotiators UM with the Russians and with the Ukrainians. But it's one

thing from oscart to lower tensions. Would be another thing from actually withdraw their forces from around and inside the nuclear reactor. But that would obviously be a big step forward. Well, based on the behavior that we've seen from the Russians in for instance, closing ports on the Black Sea, you know, hopes shouldn't be too high. I guess is your point right? Well,

I would make I would say yes. But it's also true that Moscow would shut down all grain exports from Ukraine literally months, but international pressure got them to open up the ports at least somewhat so at sometimes at some points, international pressure can affect the Kremlin's nasty calculations. Ambassador Herbs, tell us your thoughts on this counter offensive

right now. And I ask you that with the knowledge that you were one of the signatures on an open letter that has been published in a few places in Washington here insisting on greater military and strategic support for Ukraine. You've you've said that we need to do more. As this counter offensive begins, and we sign another three billion dollars worth of weapons over to Ukraine, what else should

we be doing? Well? The administration has provided substantial assistance to Ukraine, and that's very good, but it has also been slow and timid at providing Ukraine the weapons that needs to actually stop the Russians cold and push them back. Um. That needs to stop, and that's why we issued that statement last week, signed by nineteen former senior military and civilian officials. We need to send longer range artillery, not just our truly, which has a range of kilometers, but

up to one fifty or even three kilometers. We need to send on fighter planes we refuse to send to Ukraine. We need to send tanks. If we do all these things, Moscow will lose the land it's currently conquered, at least in the south and perhaps in the east at one point, though you send all that stuff over there, I mean, should shouldn't Russia just consider itself to be at war with the US in Ukraine. Look, Moscow is unable to

defeat the Ukrainians. When Ukraine receives military and economic support for the United States, they are no way able to be at war with the United States. Our conventional military and NATO's conventional military is far greater all and we should not allow ourselves to be intimidated when Putin throws out nuclear threats, which is highly unlikely to actually put into place put into practice. Well, how do you think Russia will be able to hold up at this point

if it is a concerted counter offensive? Knowing that we have been keeping Ukraine armed here with with such depletion on the Russian side eighty thousand casualties according to the Pentagon, and no access to new hardware. They can't get the chips to make new stuff to replace the tanks and

missiles in the fields. So is the timing right, Uh, the timing is right for a new offensive, but I don't believe Ukraine has enough hardware again, longer range missiles, tanks, armored personnel carriers, planes, to conduct a substantial, effective counter offensive. If we gave Ukraine everything or nearly everything that's asking for, I don't have any doubt they could take back most of the South and a good portion of the East.

And I hope we'll see that, because it's crazy to talk about negotiations right now when Putin's aim is still to subdue Ukraine. And keep in mind, Putin is conducting a war of war crimes, and if we agreed to Russia controlling new territory and Ukraine, we're consigning Ukrainian civilians,

women and children to Moscow's war crimes. And Russia has already taken, according to some estimates, as many as two hundred and sixty thousand Ukrainian children and put them into Russia to put them up for adoption with Russian parents.

You know, we ended last week, Ambassador with the conversation about knowing that that we had signed off on this additional weapons package and the types of things that had been ordered, many of the items had not been procured or even contracted yet, signaling as we crossed the six month mark that this would be a much longer, more protracted battle to take place before we could reach a diplomatic solution. Are you in the month or years camp? No,

I think we're in the year's camp. But I do believe strongly that if we provide more and advanced weapons now, we will bring this to an end sooner, because only then we'll Putin realize he cannot win this war, and he'd be willing to negotiate a serious piece, a piece which make sure that additional Ukrainian civilians are not subject to kate to Russian war crimes which have been major to the point of genocide according to some experts. Is

he counting on American fatigue? He's absolutely counting on fatigue from the West and timidity by Western leaders. We need to make sure that we continue to provide robust support so Putin realized he has to negotiated honest piece, not a piece of the victor where he could continue to again oppress the Ukrainian people. You remember, Ambassador, the pushback that that the Pentagon received when it came to the idea of sending Big twenty nine's over there from Poland.

They didn't want to touch that, as it would be seen as escalatory, would possibly even open a country like Poland being attacked by Russia trigger an Article five response and you've got a world war underway? Do you not agree with that? Did you at the time? And you obviously don't now if you think we should be sending tanks and planes? But was that was that a a just a wrong assessment by our Pentagon and State Department? It was really not the Pentagon and probably not the

state departments elsewhere in the administration. Look who was that that? I will not go into that here. That that was a sign of weakness, a sign that we could be intimidated. But Putin's nuclear threat it also demonstrated complete illiteracy in

the practice and the doctrine of nuclear deterrems. We are in nuclear power every bit as much as Russia, who didn't g everything by threatened nuclear war, he gains nothing by actually doing it, And we have allowed him to intimidate us away from defending major, actually vital interest because if Putin wins in Ukraine, he's gonna come for our Baltic NATO allies, and we will have to defend our Baltic NATO allies with American troops. Here we can defeat

Putin with economic assistance and weapons. So are you suggesting that this administration is taking cues from other nations? Why? No, mags Um, no, Mexic because they said it was quote unquote escalatory. They let they let Putin intimidate them. And it's very dangerous when an aggressive power with nuclear weapons like Russia believes that it can intimidate the United States. That is not statesmanship, that's weakness. But you don't think

the Pentagon saw it that way. Um, that's my understanding. Oh man, this sounds political, that ambassador, that's part of part of yours, no doubt about it. This this is very much political. Well okay, so has the climate changed enough to get the that's there now? Uh. I don't think it's changed yet, but over time it may well change. Look, we've seen the administration provide substantial assistance, and they deserve

credit for that substantial assistance military and economic. And we've seen them provide increasingly more sophisticated weapons, but only after they say no. But then they change their mind. So the dynamic is one of first no than yes, and so eventually opposition becomes stronger. Again, that's good, but it takes too long, which means more Ukrainians die and means Russia has more time to create tensions in Europe and

within between the United States and Europe. And Joe Biden has been timid, in your opinion, so as to not lose European allies in this effort getting warm. I think that may be part of it, but that's not all of it. And you know, I remember when Vice President Biden um disagreed with President Obama job in Ukraine. So I don't understand why we're not wow. We kind of should be. Need to get an adult beverage with John Herp's, former US Ambassador to Ukraine, senior director of the Atlantic

Council's Eurasia Center. Fascinating conversation Ambassador. The panel's next, This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Timidits he seemed to be the key word there from John Herp's, the former Ambassador to Ukraine. Just as Ukrainians launch the counter offensive, the former ambassador. This is a diplomat now he's with the Atlantic Council. Says it's time to get the jets of the tanks over there. This is not an opportunity to be wasted.

But I'll tell you it's not gonna happen. Missiles, yes, lots of AMMO mortar rounds, No fighter jets on this shopping list that we saw last week with another three billion dollars in gear headed over to Ukraine. Let's assemble the panel after our weekend. We come back together with Rick Engenie Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeannie Chanzano and Rick Davis. I'm not sure Genie, exactly where the Ambassador was going here, if only to understand that he thinks this president has

been too timid. Even with this relatively large collection of allies here, it's been a bit of a a balancing act, right, But I, as I understand from the ambassador, the president needs to stand up and start taking on matters in his own hands. Yeah, you know, he's been thirteen what a billion dollars timid and um, there are a large number of allies that we are working with, but you

know I'm hearing these words. You know, fatigue and timidity, but I think we have to realize there's another word here, and that's pain. So I mean, just to look at what is going on in Europe from the energy sector, you had the British regulators say prices will up jump eight percent in one day in October. That is real pain for people in Europe. And that's not just in England. It's going to happen in Germany. It's happening in France. And that is where he is right. Herbst is right

because time is not on the side of Ukraine. This is going to be a real issue because it is not far fetched to imagine that people in Europe get very, very frustrated when they can't keep their homes d It is very cold Campbell. Those expecting this to go on for years, though, Genie, So you know which is it? Well, you know, listen, you had increase in energy in April in England and in October. That's real pain. This is

going to go on for years. Of course, Putin is expecting and hoping that he's able to strike some kind of deal, and that's why time is not on the side of Zelenski. This counterinsurgency that they're this counter offensive is critical because again time is an issue. Winter is approaching and that's a problem for the Ukrainians. How about

how about this not go on for years? Rick, how about we do exactly what the ambassador just said, starts sending fighter jets, tanks and long range missiles over there. Would that bring to an end? Well? I think it certainly speeds up the process. We we get reports all the time about the lack of resources that the Russians have. You know, we're right now we're seeing them having to pull troops out of the East and the Don Boss in order to shore up their position in the south

where the where the surge is happening. So um, you know, it's it actually isn't a zero sum game. It's not just what we give to um, the Ukrainians that will help win this war right away. It's also the pressure we can continue to put on Russia directly. And I would say that's an area actually surprised that the former ambassador didn't mention it. We're not inflicting any pain economically on this. This regime in in Moscow not compared to

what ultimately we need to do. It's got to be able to be a painful political situation in Russia to get put in them to move. He will claim victory all day long when he's losing on the battlefield, but the minity loses the confidence of his people, he's out of there. At what point, though, do we go back to that concern Rick, that we had a couple of months ago at least was expressed here that you send

that type of hardware, that's an offensive move. Russia drops a bomb or sends a missile into a NATO country like Poland or Romanian, this is a very different picture at that point. Well, the only thing worse than us manning um the Ukrainians with our our weaponry is a war with US. And I think the ambassador a good job of creating a distinction. The Russian military wouldn't last

a week against NATO. Okay, So like our level of sophistication is significantly higher than what we're seeing on a battle field by the Russians, our numbers will dwarf them overnight. Are sophisticated troops who have you know, command control and communications capability will not allow them to be able to get off the kinds of warfare they are fighting. A you know, uh, you know, sixteenth century war on the ground in Ukraine, and we have twenty one century capability.

So the last thing Vladimir Putin wants to do is give any NATO country a pretel X to say article for I'm you know, I'm under attack, come help me. Well, what do you think then, Jennie, We'll send them, send them the full list, get the jets over there. Why don't we wait so long? You know, the problem is domestic politics. I mean, you know, we are engaged in a conflict with Russia, but we are doing it in this sort of proxy environment that we are comfortable with.

And when I say we, it's not just the United States, it's all of our NATO autumy are real proxy then though it would be a real proxy then And this is the domestic problem, and so we are wanting to have it both ways. And the problem is is that Russia has shown itself and I agree with Rick, their economy has held up under this. We haven't been tough enough there, but in part it's held up because of India, China and countries like that. But you know, they have

held up. We could really have a real impact on them economically in a more concerted way. We haven't had the domestic will to do that, and so that is a problem for US be because Russia has been showing itself to be willing to wait these things out, and

the longer they wait, the harder it is for Ukraine. Well, I'll tell you if if there's an opportunity to speed this up, Brick, I can't imagine that there's going to be a better opportunity for the administration than right now while it still has the support of the American people. To your point, though, when it comes to sanctions, is that the conversation that lawmakers need to have when they

come back to town another another layer. I think not only UM lawmakers, because I think there's more we can do domestically ourselves, but we ought to see this sanction regime for secondary sanctions on the agenda for the g Secondary Sanctions. Rick Davis and Jennie Chanzon no our panel Signature panel back with us on a Monday, and they'll be back a bit later this hour. As we turned to Eric Larson, Bloomberg Legal Reporter for help with what's

happening with the documents from Mara Lago. That's next on Bloomberg. Now that the affid David has had a chance to breathe for a little bit. Remember the redacted version out Friday. Chattering Class spent time with it over the weekend, although it was pretty difficult to find a Republican defending Donald

Trump on Sunday morning television. As we learn now this is remember a hundred and eighty four documents that came from the first batch, a whole bunch more in the more recently acquired batch of documents, hundreds hundreds of documents, and it's being reviewed or has just been reviewed by the Department of Justice. Is so called filter team. They look for violations of attorney client privilege. They weed these things out and uh, I guess keep them from the prosecutors.

As the idea here, But it do'n't always come together quite that neat of a way. As I read from Eric Larson on the terminal, he's with us right now. The headline d OJ response raises doubts on Trump's special master request Eric, who's on this filter team as they

call it. Well, we don't have any names of which individuals are part of the team, but they would separate from the investigators and basically, you know, any time there's a search like this and lots of records are sees, UM, you're going to have a team like this or do an initial look through to make sure that any documents or records covered by attorney client privilege are not UM handed over to investigators because those types of documents are

supposed to remain secret and just between the attorney and the clients. So essentially it is Trump's right to have those documents if there are any return to him UM, and the DJ filing today was sort of ali preliminary response to Trump's lawsuits, seeking his own neutral third party to do essentially the same thing, but someone that UM would not be a government employee and would be uh, sort of doing it a review that I guess Trump's people would trust more, I guess, for lack of a

better way to put it, UM. So there, it's far from certain whether or not that special master will be granted. There's going to be a hearing on that on Thursday. But for now, as you mentioned, we know that the d o J review team has at least finished this initial review UM, and they said that they did find a limited set of documents potentially covered by attorney privilege, and they're following the process for handling those and so those would would would be returned. I guess by design

here you point out though in your column. In his August twenty second suit, Donald Trump complained that the judge approved the Justice Departments filter protocol without input from the defense, and went on to say that the filter team's leader is a deputy to the lead prosecutor in this matter, So it does not ensure that prosecution team NET members will not access or become aware of what they see as privilege materials. Have they already seen all this stuff?

It's it's impossible to know just at this point yet. I mean, we did get some new details from that complaint that that was filed by Trump, but those haven't necessarily been confirmed by the Justice Department, so we don't know if that's true. At the filter team's leader is a deputy to the lead prosecutor, I don't at least no offense true. But and I can say I'm not

necessarily saying that it's not. But you can imagine that the DOJ and doing such a high profile review and with such an important privileged review team here, that they would wouldn't be doing anything necessarily unusual that could potentially be called out. I mean it could be that, uh, you know, Trump is pointing at something as if it's you know, nefarious, even though it might be a completely standard.

So we'll find out a lot more when the Justice Department files it's first substantive public response to the lawsuit. Tomorrow is the deadline that is going to spell out in much more detail what the status of the review is, what they've done with these documents, if in fact, any documents have now been handed over to the actual investigators

to start looking for violations of the law on Trump's part. Uh. So we will find out a lot more tomorrow, and then Trump will get a chance to respond to that filing on Wednesday, and then we'll have a hearing on Thursday in West palmp Beach. Fascinating, special Master, is this a delay tactic as some suggest? I mean, what's the point of having a special master or whatever you're going to call your third party? If these filtered teams or

I understand taint teams they're also called, already exist. You know it certainly could be Um Trump in his lawyers. You know, it's safe to say they've been known for being accused of delayed tactics in various lawsuits before and and frankly, uh, this request for a special master could have been made a while ago. I mean, this two

was filed twenty two. The search was August eight. I have spoken to plenty of legal experts since then who said, you know, if the problem was, if they were really a major concern about the d o j's paint team, then why would you wait so long to file too for a special master to be appointed? So that could be something that could play against Trump at this hearing.

Although it should be noted that the judge handling this case is actually a Trump appointed judge, and over the weekend she issues sort of an unusual uh preliminary order saying that she was preliminarily inclined to grant Trump's request, even though she hadn't heard anything from the DJ yet. Uh So we'll we'll see if if that ends up being um a final order or not. You know, she may be swayed by the d j's arguments. We'll have to wait and see. But it was kind of an

interesting order there, prebuttle from the judge. Okay, you point out, Eric, that this is out of the Giuliani playbook. We've seen this movie before, right, And actually, you know, like I said, it's not super unusual for special match like this to be requested, especially when you have, for example, a lawyer's offices being um searched, having computers, files, records, phones, sees that there's going to be potential for lots of proto

stuff based on there. But you write that Rudy Giuliani material sees from Rudy Giuliani and Michael Cohen was subject to attorney client privilege or retired federal judge was appointed in both instances to review there exactly. And that's again because both of those gentlemen being lawyers, you know, really does increase the um the risk of that attorney clients

privilege being uh complicated in such a search. Of course Trump is not a lawyer, um, But that doesn't mean that there aren't privileged materials that could have been taken

from the former president. Yeah, and his office was searched during the borrow law though search, and he is in the middle of a lot of litigation and including also back and forth with concerning these documents with the government, so presumably files the record the documents related to any of those ongoing legal matters that have just been sitting on his death. Great reporting, Eric Larson, Thank you for joining us again. Eric. We're gonna learn a lot over

the next three days. Clearly, as we heard from Bloomberg's legal reporter, will reassemble our panel next. Rick and Jeanie are on the way back in. I'm Joe Matthews. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg sound on on Bloomberg Radio. Who's pretty hard to find a high ranking Republican official defending Donald Trump on Sunday Morning television. I guess Roy Blunt tried but didn't really own it. Well, there was Senator Lindsey Graham that may be Donald Trump's true friend

at the moment on Fox News. Most Republicans, including me, believes when it comes to Trump, uh, there is no law. It's all about getting him. There's a double standard when it comes to Trump. What happened with Hunter Biden is that the FBI wait end to make sure story didn't break for the election. We now have whistleblowers at the FBI telling Senator grass Lee that they were told to slow down and back off Hunter Biden. And I'll say this.

If there's a prosecution of Donald Trump for misshandling classified information after the Clinton debacle, which you presided over and did a hell of a good job, there would be riots in the street, riots in the streets. The line that andates from Sunday Morning's talking to trade out e there, he's got his own show. Let's reassemble the panel. Rick Davis and Jennie Chanzano Bloomberg Politics contributors make up our

signature panel. And Rick, I don't know, is Lindsey Graham looking kind of lonely here or will he end up looking like the smartest guy in the room. Well, let's hope he's not the smartest guy in the room because what he's predicting isn't good for the country. Well, obviously riots, But you know, look, there's been a lot of cases against Donald Trump that his supporters have never seen come to fruition. Yeah, but this is the thing that I've

left scratching my head. I mean, you know, Lindsey Graham's lawyer. He's he's practiced law in the pass on the side of you know, the little guy. Um. He was been chairman of the Judiciary Committee most recently. I mean he's steeped in this, and and to to predicate a prosecution on the outcome of riots in the street. In other words, you shouldn't prosecute Donald Trump because of the reaction from

his supporters. It's just extra legal, right. It just doesn't make sense from from someone who's has learned as he is. So I would have preferred, you know, him say there might be right in the streets, where there would be rights in the streets, and that would be wrong, right, because that would be okay to say it's wrong to do that. But um, but he stopped there. And so look, I mean, tempers are hot. Joe Biden called mega Republicans

near fascists the other day. I mean everybody and and even quote Donald Trump, everyone needs to back off a little bit. I mean, like what Donald Trump says everyone ought to back off. That's really saying something. Yeah, he said everybody needs to relax a little bit here, Genie, I don't know if you agree. But Democrats weren't out in force killing Donald Trump on this either. Is it good for both parties to be kind of quiet while

this unfolds. Well, you know, the political reality is, the more Donald Trump is in the news, the better for Democrats. And that's been that's been the reality. So you know, the more Trump, the better for them. Republicans know that they would like to turn their focus on Joe Biden. They'd like to talk about inflation, they'd like to talk about his age, they'd like to talk about a whole bunch of things. They haven't gotten the oxygen in the room because Donald Trump takes it all up in the

media realm. And that's a problem. And you know, Lindsey Graham is repeating what's been sort of a common thesis or mantra for many years that Donald Trump has been, you know, a leading public figure, political figure at least in our country, which is this idea that if we actually prosecute him, we run the risk of turning him into some kind of martyr and or his supporters will riot. And the reality is that's not how a legal system operates. And I am not advocating prosecution at all, but what

I'm saying is that should not be the consideration. And it's a problem when people like Senator Lindsey Graham start to say or hint that the reason not to prosecute is because of a potential violent reaction we should be able to handle both a violent reaction and prosecution when it's deserved, and it may or may not be in this case. Well fair enough, I mean the and I should be clear by the way, I was hearing plenty of of democratic or liberal pundits talk about this, but

elected leaders are playing it carefully. Rick, is that the right move for Democrats as well? Uh? Look, I think Democrats, Uh, they have their talking points going in the mid terms. It's all about the accomplishments in the last couple of months. Really, I mean, as if we could forget the first year and a half of the right administration. But but but look, they fall prey to this too, right. I mean, you know, if I were advising Republicans right now, I would do

exactly what Geni was suggesting. Just talk about inflation, just talk about the economy. These are the things that will turn voters in our direction. Talking about Donald Trump is not going to help that that construct. And so the fact that Democrats kind of have a cheap win here because Republicans are already off message, and if they just tweak it every now and then, it'll just wind up

the Republicans a little bit. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't Joe Biden's strategy when he talked about, you know, Maga's Republicans being you know, near fascist, because at the end of the day, you know that's going to create an opposite and equal reaction. Jennie, what was your take on that we didn't have a chance because you weren't with us On Friday, as the President went to Bethesda for a fundraiser. There were two different events that night.

I want everyone to understand. One of them was didn't have cameras or a stage, or was in a tent in somebody's backyard. That's where the real money is raised. Then he went up to Rockville and was on stage to the big rally, you know, the big speech at the podium with the lights of the cameras. When he was in that tent, he did he said, you know that this isn't your grandfather's party, Ultra Maga. He said, it's kind of like semi fascism. Recalling of course, everyone said, well,

is this the new deplorables of the election cycle? Was that a dangerous thing for him to say? You know, this has been part of the democratic talking point for a long time. The idea is the more extremist you can paint the Republicans, the better off Democrats will be, the more enthusiastic their base will be, and the more money, quite frankly, you will raise to fund these campaigns. It's not a lot different than Republicans who are for years

gone out and described Democrats as socialist. Right, that's you know, not that so not that socialist is equated to fascist, but you know, there's there's a you know, this kind of over overcharged language that's become common. I don't particularly like it, and I don't like it from a president, but this is where we are in this environment. So it's not a surprise, and it is part and person

of what their research shows. The more you can describe Republicans as extreme, the more likely Democrats get out, and the less likely Republicans do as well as they should in a mid term with inflation this high. Some suggests it's the only way to beat Donald Trump UH is to kind of match him rick, to get in the ring with him, and this would be his style, but he's not on the ballot. I don't know a dozen Republican primary um UH contenders try to do that, and

look how well they fared. My money's on Donald trumpet that's the tactic. Look, I mean, you know, John McCain when he was running for president, gave an order said we're not going to talk about Reverend right, that would be a divisive racial signature of a campaign message, and we're gonna take that off the table. Where those days, Where are the days where we actually try to lower lower the temperature and focus on issues that actually American

voters care about. American voters do not care about the kind of comments that are either made by Lindsey Graham in relation to these riots, or or or from Joe Biden in relation to how he defines the ultra magus. I mean, all of this stuff is just creating a further divide. The same politicians complain all the time about polarization. Well, who the heck do you think is creating the polarization? Well, isn't that the truth? Uh, this is something that's going

to come to a head this week Pennsylvania. We just learned, by the way, while we've been on the air of the White House and added another event. There's President's going to Pennsylvania twice this week, not just the event you knew about. Tomorrow's go going to Philadelphia to deliver a speech on the battle for the soul of the nation. They capitalize soul of the nation, uh in the news release here, Jennie. And then of course on Saturday night

it's the big Trump bonanza. He's holding a rally in Pennsylvania with all of the candidates he has endorsed, beginning with Dr oz H. Pennsylvania has become the center of the political universe here, at least for the moment. Gennie, What what does Joe Biden need to say there though that will actually help John Fetterman and other Democrats who

are running well. We hear the argument is right out of the polls quite frankly, you know the leading issues as you get below the economy and inflation for Democrats in particular, and this is going to be in a base election, turn out the vote. They are very, very frightened about the state of democracy in the United States, and you hear it right there. They feel it is under threat. We're going to see more January six hearings

as we move into the fall. This is all in keeping with the Democrats concern and that's what the President is going to talk about and he's also going to obviously support candidates like Fetterman who are doing very very well. So Pennsylvania is going to be a place where he's going to test an argument. But this is an argument that a lot of people, and I'm talking about Democrats,

but you have moderates and independence. They don't want to go back to the time of the you know, January six and and Trump in the fall um and sort of the craziness. They want some normalcy. And that's what he's going to try to promise them if they keep Democrats in Congress. Donald Trump will be on stage Saturday with Doug Mastriano of course, uh vocal election denier and now Meyer in this controversy overwearing a Confederate uniform in

a photograph. Whether or not that goes anywhere, Rick, I don't know, but Dr Oz will be there as well. Does Oz need to pull away from that group to to to really kind of reinvent the narrative around his campaign. Yeah, he needs to reinvent himself. The reality is that it was great to have Donald Trump endorsement to win that primary, and he did um and and subsequent to that, he's

been pretty quiet when it came to Donald Trump. Probably cannot avoid being on the stage with Donald and Doug Mastriano, and Nat will do him no favors other than the base counties that he's running in and he's running from behind. I would say the Mastriano race is probably what's driving Trump's interest in the state. I mean, Trump really doesn't care if Mitch McConnell's majority leader again and Pennsylvania is the state they could probably deny him that if we

lose an existing Republican seat there. So what he really wants is one of his adherents, Doug Mastriano, who is over the top mega right. He fits into that description. Um if he became Pennsylvania governor, you know. I mean, it's a green light for Donald Trump to basically say all the things he said about Pennsylvania elections were true. Fascinating conversation with Rick Davis and Jeanie Schanzano. Thanks to

both of you. They'll be back throughout the week here on Bloomberg Sound on the Fastest Hour in politics, and that's the baseline. That's where we start. Too bad, we didn't get the rocket up today. It looks like We could have another launch date on Friday. I'll keep you posted on that. To stay with us, I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. This is Bloomberg