Sound On: Pence Escape From Jan 6 Mob, DeSantis in 2024?

One life. Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. The January six Committee reveals back room conversations showing the Trump white House knew the plan to overturn the election was illegal. Welcome to the fastest hour in politics with new info today on the pressure campaign against Mike Pence, an Oval office phone call you have not heard about yet,

and a pardon sought by Trump's legal counsel. We will discuss a pivotal day on Capitol Hill ahead with Bloomberg's Mike Dorning, and we'll focus on the legal outcome here with Michael Zelden, former federal prosecutor with us in just a moment later, as the fight in Ukraine grinds into a war of attrition, the US prepares another billion dollar weapons package. We'll talk about the status of this battle with Bill Roggio, Senior fellow at the Foundation for the

Defense of Democracies our panel today. Bloomberg Politics contributor Democratic analyst Genie Shenzano was with us, along with Republican strategist Adam Goodman. The House Committee investigating January six brings new information about what led to the attack on the Capitol. They did hold another hearing today. We're watching so you don't have to focusing on how White House Council John

Eastman cooked up a theory to overturn the election. You've heard about this, using so called alternate electors and the pressure campaign against Mike Pence to carry it out. When Mike Pence made it clear that he wouldn't give in to Donald Trump's skiing, Donald Trump turned the mob on him.

Chairman Benny Thompson. The panel played video from that day, beginning with Donald Trump on the ellipse, the speech of course out in front of the White House, and then rioters hearing the news about Mike Pence Listening Mike Pence. I hope you're gonna stand up for the good of our constitution and for the good of our country. And if you're not, I'm gonna be very disappointed in you. I will tell you right now. I'm telling you what I'm hearing. The pits. I hearing the pits. Just cave. No,

is that true. I'm here, I'm hearing reports the Pence cave. I'm telling you. If Pence cave, We're gonna drag through the streets. This is as they're walking towards the castle. They're going to the streets. And then of course the gallows directed to hang my pants new today in the hearing this is important. A phone call that Donald Trump made to Mike Pence for the Oval Office the morning of January six, before he put his coat on to

go to the ellipse. The Trump family was in the room, including Ivanka, who you will hear, along with presidential advisors Eric Hirshman and Nicholas Luna. When I entered the office the second time, he was on the telephone with who I later found out to be was the Vice President. Could you hear the vice president or only hear the president's end? The only God the president's end at some point. It started off as a commer tone and everything and

then became heated. The conversation was pretty heated, I think, until it became somewhat in a louder tone. I don't think anyone was paying attention to it initially. Did you hear any part of the phone call, even if just this the end that the president was speaking from? I did, yes, all right? And what'd you hear? So? As I was dropping off the note my memory, I remember hearing the word whim. Either he called him a whim. I don't remember he said you are a whim, You'll be a whim.

Whimp was the word I remember. Whimp was one word used on that call. Ivanka Trump's chief of staff Julie Radford tells us that they got more profane from there, something to the effect, this is the wording is wrong. I made the wrong decision four or five years ago. Is the word that she relates to that the president called the vice president apologize for being impolite. But do you remember what she said? Her father called him the

P word. The P word as described by Radford. Let's bringing Bloomberg, Congress reporter A longtime Washington journalist Mike Dorning, who watched this and has been writing about it all day. This was a tough day for Donald Trump. Mike, it's great to have you. But was it even worse for John Eastman? The stuff that we heard today, also learning that he sought a presidential pardon after this. Yeah, there were two things that kind of struck me that were

really damning for John Eastman. One is um Vice President Um Pence, his chief council said that Eastman at one point admitted to him that, hey, if this legal strategy would come to the Supreme Court, we would lose nine ten nothing. And then, as you mentioned, after this was over, he was saying, please can I get on a pardon list for my part on this? When the committee tried to interview him, he invoked his Fifth Amendment rights because he wasn't pardoned A hundred times, Yeah, a hundred times.

And we got a little bit of a taste of that. Um. That phone call is not something that we've heard about before, at least not on a formal level. Here with Trump calling Pence, isn't it something to hear it? Though? From the words coming directly from Ivanka Trump, who who seemed disturbed about what she had witnessed. Yeah, she said she'd never heard him speak to the vice president like that before. You know, maybe other people. Um, it does make a

difference because some of this has been out there. The details of that call have been kind of out there in print, according to anonymous p ball, But it's something different to see the president's daughter saying under oath, this is what happened. Aids that were so close to the president that they were in the Oval Office with the President on this day. We're not talking minor aids. We're talking people in the Oval Office saying this on video

under oath, under penalty of perjury. This is a dramatic portrait of the president that day. And and to me, the things that were most stunning about the hearing was just Pence's wild day and some of these new chilling detailshs and photographs in this undisclosed location and uh kind of um, you know, the mob was within forty feet of him. Informant for the Proud Boys from who was in the Proud Boys said that the Proud Boys were

going to kill him. They got him and uh, some some sort of moments of steel that you know again these are being said under oath, so we assume they're truthful. That kind of uh, you know, glorify Pence. But one thing that struck me was not only did he refuse to leave the capital, but the Secret Service sort of wisely said, if we're stuck in this underground garage, let's get you inside the armored car in case, um, you wouldn't get in. He said, no way, because I don't

want to leave here. And well, I trust you, the detail leader. I do not trust the driver of the mobs invading not to hit the gas. Mike Darning find his work on the terminal and on the website. It's great to have you with us. Let's do a deeper dive next here. And when is it? By the way, on's the next round. I think it's next Tuesday. He's got moved around a little bit and will of course have the full smash prime time conclusion at some point.

I'm happy you could join us, Mike, thank you for I would love to absolutely we'll do it again here on Bloomberg sound On. As we mentioned that prey residential pardon, Congressman Pete Aghilar, Democrat on the panel, described what Eastman had put in email for Dr Eastman emailed Rudy Giuliani and requested that he'd be included on a list of potential recipients of her presidential pardon. Dr Eastman's email stated quote, I've decided that I should be on the pardon list

if that is still in the works. Dr Eastman did not receive his presidential partner. He didn't. Michael Zelden joins us now former federal prosecutor, former special counsel to Robert Mueller while at the Department of Justice. It's great to have you back with us, Michael. A lot of us are trying to figure out where this is going, and we heard from the chairman, Benny Thompson a short time ago.

I guess the Department of Justice is not happy that this panel has not been providing all of its information. They want transcripts of all these interviews. Is the committee slowing the investigation into what happened on January six? I wouldn't think so. I would think that the Committee will in good order give these transcripts to the d o J. Why they didn't yet is not knowable, But I don't expect that there will be any breach between the committee and the d J, and the d J will get

everything it needs to make a determination. Yeah. Benny Thompson, as I mentioned, was asked about this, and we understand that he says it's not coming anytime soon, not until we're done with our hearings. Liz Cheney has been more in favor of passing that along. The fact of the matter is, though, Michael, and the reason why we wanted

to talk to you, is how this culminates. Beyond setting the timeline in stone, what will be the legal ramifications that come from this, whether or not they decide to indict.

That's um former President Trump. What is being presented here is evidence of a conspiracy with seven parts to it, and today we heard another one of those parts, or two parts actually, one was the pressure campaign that Trump placed on Pence, and then the second one is what they called the pouring gasoline on the fire, which was Trump summoning, assembling the violent mob and directing them to march on the capital. So we heard pretty clear evidence

of this. And in a criminal conspiracy, the most difficult thing is to prove criminal intent. Did the person know that what they were doing was illegal and decided to act anyway? And That's what the evidence was most clear on today. Yeah, it's sounding a lot like it here, Michael. Not just Donald Trump I want to ask you about, but also John Eastman, this former counsel who, as we know,

sought a pardon. Listen to what presidential advisor Eric Hirshman said when Eastman first approached him with this idea of overturning the election. He was walking through it at that time, and I said, to hold on a second, I want understand what you're saying. You're saying that you believe the Vice president, acting as President of the Senate can be the sole decision maker as to under your theory, who becomes the next president United States. And he said yes.

M I said, are you out of your f in mind? Quite a conversation. January six happens the day after Johnny Easman calls Hershman on the phone to try to float the idea of doing something. There's another appeal they could make in Georgia or something like that. Hershman did not pull back this time either. Irena said, I don't want to hear any other f and words coming out of your mouth, no matter what other than orderly transition. Repeat

those words to me. Eventually you said orderly transition. I said, good, John. Now I'm going to give you the best free legal advice you're ever getting in your life. Get a great f in criminal defense lawyer. You're gonna need it. Is he right? Michael's elden, Well, it again appears that the President United States, along with John Eastman, along with Rudy Giuliani, along with Sidney Powell, engaged in a criminal conspiracy to

obstruct and defraud the United States government. That there was an agreement, there was guilty knowledge, criminal intent, and they were acts in furtherance of that conspiracy. And yeah, you know, from a straight constitutional analysis, there's nothing that prevents the former president from being indicted. And from a straight criminal law analysis, the elements of a criminal conspiracy have been

laid out pretty clearly today. The next couple of hearings need to accomplish what Michael, if this is the direction we're going in, well, I think what they're going to be doing is trying to prove each of the seven prongs of their conspiracy. They're saying the president engaged in the seven part conspiracy. The first was the Big Law,

the second was to replace the acting attorney general. The third was to pressure Pence, the fourth was to pressure state officials, the fifth was to do the false selectors scheme, the sixth was the violent mob, and the seventh was in action when this was going on. So I think what happens next is the pressure campaign on state officials.

We haven't heard the evidence of that yet in these hearings, and so they're just working their way through these seven elements, and I think what they'll conclude with it to say, we have essentially proved our case America. The President of United States, former president of the United States, along with the following people engage in the conspiratory to obstruct into fraud the Congress in these seven ways, and then they'll say, here,

d o J is up to you. What's DOJ doing? Lastly, Michael, right now, though they're they're conducting their own investigation in tandem here exactly right. They are not sitting back doing nothing. They are investigating. But they have not gotten the head start that the January six committee did, and that's why

they're asking for assistance with the transcripts. And I think what is going to be the case is what Thompson said is as soon as they've laid out their case, They're going to give their information to organization has the authority to indict, and that's the d o J. In the end, this is a Department of Justice story. Though right Americans and and historians are following the committee, the do o J has the action. Well, I think that's true, and it's not true. I think it's true from a

criminal law perspective. But of course what's going on here is a very important political story, which you know, on which the democratic government that we cherish is on trial. And so I think you have both. You have the what is what happened and what can we do to prevent it from happening politically? And then second who will be held accountable criminally? So I think those things happen

in sandem. Look glad you could join us. Michael zeld In a voice of experience, former federal prosecutor and former special counsel to Robert Muller while at the Department of Justice. We thank you, Michael, I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. This is Bloomberg sound On. You're not going to hear conversations like this anywhere else today as we try to not sensationalize what's happening, but better understand where the heck this is going. And we're gonna assemble our panel next for

more on this. The headline on the terminal now January six. Committee wants to talk to Jenny Thomas, Yes, the wife of Justice Clarence Thomas. Apparently this will happen. The chairman, Bennie Thompson says, the committee plans to ask the wife of Justice Clarence Thomas to answer questions about her involvement

in plans to overturn the election. As we have understood now that email correspondence from John Eastman, the aforementioned at the panel recently obtained shows that Jenny Thompson was in contact with the attorney and talked about her efforts to keep Joe Biden out of office. Washington Post broke it.

We'll see if the Committee gets somewhere on this. Speaking of Benny Thompson, as we assemble our panel here, listen to this back and forth from the chair of the committee as he walks of the hearing room faces a group of reporters in the hallway to talk about why the committee is not sharing all of this with the Department of Justice. This just happened, essentially a letter accuse you guys of hampering their investigation. Are you going to

turn over those transcripts? We just got the letter yesterday. I asked you about it on Tuesday too, So are you going to turn over the transcripts in due time? You will? Are you agree? Listen to me? There, don't don't. We got the letter yesterday, we're reviewing it. Will respond to them, but we in the midst of conducting hearings. We have a program to get over. We have to

get the facts and circumstances behind January six. We will work with them, but we have a report to do what We are not going to stop what we're doing to share the information that we've gotten so far. All right,

there's Benny Thompson straight from the chairman's mouth. A short time ago he was asked to how about the end of the week, He said no. As we assembled our panel, Genie's with us in studio today Bloomberg Politics contributor, Democratic analyst Jennie Chanzano joined by Adam Goodman, Republican Strategists, columnist and partner at Battered Partners in Washington, also a senior Fellow at Tufts University's Fletcher School. Genie, it's great to

see in Washington and welcome back Adam Goodman. Pretty remarkable second half of the hearing, Genie, I think you and I both agree how much trouble is John Eastman in and what's going on here with the Department of Justice. Yeah, well, well John Eastman, first off, I mean, the idea that he asked to be put on that part in list, I mean shows that he has a sense that he could be in very big trouble. And I thought the

clip you played by Hirshman is indicative of that. And he told him, I'm going to give you free legal advice and the best advice you're going to get to get an attorney because you're in trouble. And you know, I think the federal judge talking about this as a coup in search of illegal theory, and of course Eastman and Trump at the center of that coup, so he's in big trouble. I have a lot of questions about what's going on between the committee and the Department of Justice.

I don't understand it Justice at the outset, and I wanted to ask you know, your previous guests this but why can't they turn over or won't they turn over this material? It can't be difficult for the committee to physically turn this over. They're not going to have to rewrite it by hand. They just put it on at the same thing. So I have a lot of questions

as to why that's not happening. I don't know. Adam may have a better answer than I do, but I think it's it's a perplexing that there seems to be, you know, by Benny Thompson, this resistance to working with the Department of Justice at this point? Are they afraid that the d o J is going to steal their work? Wouldn't it actually add credibility to the committee to have d o J behind this? I'm laughing right now, jeez. I thought I could explain this. I explained in two words, Washington,

you know, parlor game and ship games. Ship actually three words. I mean where we are right now? We have we if you if you remember the public, this seems to be West Wing meeting the House of Cards, right, So they're starting to they're starting to get very interested in, well, what's the next part, the next chapter. But let's put

this all in perspective for a second. Uh, I believe that punishing actions in the past talking about political now, Punishing actions in the past will prove far more difficult than punishing such acts in the future because a lot of questions are being raised. So say this continues down this path, and you know the revelations that you're hearing, the conversations about between the president, the vice president, and

the attorney. I mean, if this were a megaphone that had been in the presidential office for the last presidents, we have a lot of fun and a lot of color. But I'm not excusing. I'm just saying, this is act she bringing into light, the public light conversations that here before have been somewhat private. What does it really lead to. If it leads to some resolution that heals the republic,

I think that's something that Americans will uccept. However, right now, I think we're moving down a path where, ultimately, short of indictment, the Democrats will think we didn't go far enough, Republicans I've went too far, and independence will thank we just had enough of all this. Let's get back to the real show, which is beating inflation. There's a lot to be said for that. Genie does it? Is it

indictment or bust them? You know, Adam stole my notes because I wrote on my notes Adam House of Cards, and he had so he was smarter than I was. But yeah, but you know, I think what is so frightening to me about this is what the judge said at the end, which is that this is not just about history and not just about sort of an accounting

what happened, but what's coming down the pike. And you and I were just talking to the last few days about the fact that we have two key swing states in Florida Nevada, which may have election deniers as in charge of the counting of votes as Secretary of States. We also have seen these Republican primaries where election deniers

are winning far more than losing. And of course, you know, you also have the Proud Boys who have come out of the shadows of doing you know, threatening to kill the vice president out enough, taking over the Miami Dad Republican Party. So they have moved themselves into politics. So this is a very threatening time. I think committee doesn't change anything, and this committee doesn't change any of that. I think one thing, if they could, you know, reform

that Electoral count Act. That would be a good start as far as I'm concerned. I think those are the kind of important things. And to get the American public to see that the election was Remember there was a time Democrats, namely progressives, were very upset with that as an option. They wanted the comprehensive of voting reform. How

important is that, Adam Goodman to get that done? I think for the confidence of the American people, it's incredibly important that we find a way the field that elections not only means something again, but that we can take it to the bank. And we're not there. You look at two thousand sixteen or more of Democrats thought that Hillary was a legitimate winner. Two thousand twenty. Uh, you know you you go to two thousand twenty and the same thing in reverse terms of Trump. We gotta do

something there. We don't and we and right now what we have is partisan bickering over what the resolution is. But can I just point out the irony of all this that les Okay, we were looking at an indictment, a seven part indictment. Pandora's Box had seven deadly sins rath, gluttony, greed, and the slow pride and lust. There are a lot of parallels here between that box in the box that I think America is find itself into these hearings. How's

the Cards meets West Wing? Adam Goodman excellent, Jeannie Chanzino, the best analysis here. This is Bloomberg. Welcome to Bloomberg. Sound on as we join you live from the nation's capital with an eye on Ukraine. The President, in fact, was on the phone with Vladimir Zelenski yesterday, vowing to provide an additional billion dollars in security assistance as they try to fight off Russian forces in the east. The

battle for the Don Bust continues. The Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin says, this is what happens when you're in the war zone. The United States. We'll provide an additional one billion dollars security assistant package for Ukraine, and that includes our twelfth draw down from d O D inventory since August. Were you're in a fight, you can never get enough. Uh. You you always want more, You always

believe that you need more. And I have been there, uh and so I you know, certainly understand where the Ukrainians are coming from. And we're gonna fight hard to get them everything they need. They are indeed getting more. This latest weapons package includes for the first time launchers for vehicle mounted harpoon anti ship missiles. According to people familiar with the matter talking with Bloomberg, Tony Capaco, the Pentagon, Jennifer Jacobs at the White House reporting this, Denmark is

going to supply the missiles. The US package also includes over threllion dollars for secure radios and related equipment, thermal night vision optics, millions more for training. Mark Millie, the of course, General Chair of the Joint Chiefs, describing the slow grind that this has devolved into in the dun Buss.

This fight down on the don Buss has been going on since sixty and April UH and the advances that the Russians have made have been very slow, a very tough slog, very severe battle of attrition, almost World War One like UH, and the Russians have suffered a tremendous amounts of casualties, almost World War One like. Let's bring in Bill Rogio, senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democra. He's an editor of the Long War Journal, which has done a lot of reporting UH since the

start of the invasion. Bill welcome back. Comparing this to World War One certainly draws images and horrible memories and really just expresses the tough slog that Ukraine is in here. You remember there was at one point we thought this would be done in a couple of weeks. Then it was a couple of months. This is showing no end in sight. Yes, thanks for having me back. I actually disagree with General Milly's assessment that this is like World

War One. What I think what he's describing there is that trench warfare where the lines didn't move for a significant portion, and that's not actually what's happening. The Russians are advancing, it's just very very slow. Um. And he's not mentioning the Ukrainian losses as well. There there are now the Ukrainians are now saying they're losing one hundred soldiers a day and taking up to a thousand wounded.

So this is a you know, the losses are mounting on both sides, and one side has a lot more to lose than the other, and that would be the Russians. So yeah, I just disagree with that assessment. I think that might have been the assessment a month ago. But it's just it's it seems very behind. So Russia is advancing, then will this new weapons package slow them down? I think the problem with this new weapons packages I'm hearing it, it's not going to arrive in theater for weeks, if

not months, in totality. And I think this has been a big problem with the Western effort to arm Ukraine. It's it's been coming peace and coming into the country piece meal. It's not arrived. Not enough of his is arriving quick enough. In order to have an impact on the battlefield, you need to get those weapons systems um online and at the same time in order to be able to affect this the tactical situation, and that's not what we're seeing. We're seeing these the equipment roll in

piece at a time. And then there's another issue with that is are the Ukrainians capable of handling these more advanced weapons systems and then will they be able to provide the ammunition for them as well. So the Ukrainians are now since they're depleting their stocks to Soviet weaponry,

they're now becoming dependent on Western aid. And what happens if the Western if the US and other countries suddenly decide maybe it's not a good idea to keep providing weapons, and maybe we need to look for a political solution. We're a far distance from there, obviously. How about these harpoon anti ship missiles the Ukraine was asking for help in the Black Sea. I guess to your point weeks ago, Uh, what do these bring if not a more pronounced naval war.

I think that this is one weapon system that can make a very real difference, even if provided and limited numbers. It can drive the Russian navy further off of the Ukrainian coast through Russian The Russians control about two thirds of the Black Sea coast and all the coasts of the Sea of Azov, so in the port of a city of Odessa that is under Ukrainian control, and Ukrainians are worrying about an amphibious assault and support of Russian

forces from the sea. These types of weapons systems can target and hit Russian um warships at long range, but you know, in hundreds of miles, so the Russians are gonna have to stand off from the coast. This is one weapons system I think really can have an impact in this But it's a defensive weapons. Does it unlock the ports to to start moving grain. I don't believe it will, because the Russians could just back off and interdict sip ships for just further off the Ukrainian coast,

these ports are still mined um. The Ukrainians would have to demine them, and then they would have to get those ships past a Russian blockade, and then the Turks would have to open up the Straits as well into the Black Sea. When you mentioned the political solution that it might be time to start having a more serious conversation, do you believe that Ukraine cannot win this militarily. Yeah. So what we were told, you know, in the very beginning was Russia was going to have a swift victory.

That we were told Ukrainians are going to have a have a victory, gonna drive the Russians. Now, I think with the real um, the two scenarios that are more likely here is some form of stalemate when the Russians decided to stop advancing, and the other possibility that isn't being discussed here is what happens if the Russians do punch through in a significant way and get into more open undefended ground. This is why the Ukrainians need to

be considering that possibility. Right now. Zelinski and the government is talking about victory, but there's a dark side of this that they have to consider. I don't know if they are behind closed doors, but they you know, it's as distasteful it is to everyone, their Ukrainians. They may lose some, but they they they risk losing a lot more um if if they if they're not able to get a halt to the fighting. So maybe Henry Kissing

Drew was onto something. I mean, I dislike, uh, you know, he is onto something and that the borders may not look the same at the end of a political solution, a diplomatic solution, Bill Roggio, I appreciate your in It's come back and see us against soon Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and look for the long ward journal that Bill is editing. Right now. We'll reassemble the panel

for more on this. Next This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg you sound on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Pretty tough assessment of the situation in Ukraine from Bill Rojo, and you do wonder where we're going to be here in terms of public opinion, public sentiment, and the appetite for more, say com August Labor Day, or we're gonna be talking about this when we vote in November. It's

sure sounds like it. As we reassemble the panel now, Jennie Schanzano is in studio in Washington, Bloomberg Politics contributor and Democratic analyst, joined today by Adam Goodman. He's back with US Republican strategist columnist partner Ballard Partners. It's great to have both of you here. Genie. This doesn't sound very good here when you consider the messaging we've heard from Democrats and Republicans who have completely leaned into this

support for the war in Ukraine. Another billion dollars is going out the door here, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is describing this. I know, Bill disagreed, but not only as a war of attrition but something more like World War One. How much time does President Biden have politically to continue funding this war? You know, with the economy the way it is, it becomes really really difficult for people to say you should keep funding you know,

twenty thirty billion, another billion here. Um. So as much as people are supportive of Ukraine and want Ukraine to uh, you know, be able to push Russia back, they also are really concerned about what's going on at home, so you know, that becomes an issue. I think from a broader perspective that the real challenge here is the challenge we see in all proxy wars. They become I thought Bill was so great, They become protracted to the point

often of stalemate. They are incredibly deadly for civilians and you have to have a way out. But when you keep sending in arms, you do increase the duration of these conflicts, but the impact of the fighting on civilian populations increases as well. And what is the end game is the big question here? Where is that political diplomatic solution. I think that's something that the President and the administration

are going to have to ask. In the mind of the administration, what do they see as the endgame here? Adam good, But if it's not obvious Ukraine can win this militarily in the next couple of months, when does the White House need to make that calculation? This is very difficular. This is gonna sound maybe surprising. I I really support uh and have supported the the administration and and and all others and funding the Ukrainian effort because I think if you we don't draw the line there,

there's some very scary consequences beyond that. With that set. You know, we live at a time when inflations running buck we have um gass over five dollars a gallon bread and two dollars alow. People are kind of really kind of freaking out about that. But Joe Biden, President Biden needs to win. He needs to win somewhere. And I will say that as it's difficult, if not impossible, for him to get a win, a short term win in this election cycle on inflation and other things. He

needs to find it somewhere else. And if he's gonna throw caution to the winds and try to find somewhere where he takes a gutty strong principle stand and funny as it sounds, it maybe Ukraine. What's that stand though, to to to keep more doing more or to seek a diplomatic solution. Well, I think he has to do both. You cannot just throw money at this problem. That's of course going to be the Republicans planes against the Democrats. Everything that in the world needs more money. No, that's

not true. We need better ideas. We need more ideas that work. And if he were to do both to fund this and to seek diplomatic solutions and to say, uh, in very strong terms, this is why we're doing this. Because you talk about the economy and all their ra amplications already on our economy because of what's happening over there, it's going to get worse. You. I want to make sure it does. This is how real wars UH get

started and expand UH. In many cases mission creep right when a when a general or an executive in this particular case, Jeanie says, all right, then we're going for broke. It's surge time in Ukraine or something like that, to try to you know, close the curtains on this. Are you concerned, Genie that happens. Yeah, I think we have

to be concerned. You know, the United States has been providing and I have supported it rightly, so weapons to the Ukraine, and there has been a promise that they would not be shot over the border, because the United States of course wants to maintain you know, the distance from this. But you know, imagine that that happens and and there is a response, then do we get drawn

into this thing? You know, to go back to the proxy war idea, One reason that you engage in those as a superpower is because you can keep the hands off. You can engage from Afar. You don't suffer the casualties at home, you don't suffer the poor public opinion. But we could easily get drawn into this thing if we're not very careful. And again, you know, I think to go back to Adam's point. You know, President Biden has long made a case that the challenge of the twenty

one century is democracy versus autocracy. And one of his stands on this was to take a stand against Russia in this aggression against Ukraine. And he's right about that, but he also, I think has to have an end game here. What is the political and diplomatic solution. It's not unlike what people asked in Afghanistan years ago to U S presidents, what is the end game there? You can't just go in, even in a proxy sense, and

not have an end game or a way out. And that I think the White House needs to articulate in a way that Americans can get behind and understand, Adam, this is the conversation Vladimir Putin has been waiting for, right and he knows that that patients wears thin very quickly in a America, probably surprised by by how aggressive our response was, but he knows that this conversation is inevitable.

Does Joe Biden know that? Um? I'm unsure. I don't don't speak for the president, but I can tell you he should, uh, Vadamir Putin has not lost this war. He lost the quick win, he lost a quick win, but he hasn't lost the war. And I think he's probably looking at just what you suggested, Joe, which is a war of attrition where we started to bear on the nerds of the American public and the appetite of

American public for continuing to rally behind us. And in terms of clarifying what the president is after, what his end game is, uh, the genius point to I think he has to do that like right now, like avertly say this is where we're going and this is the end game for us. Another spending bill and another problem we have to take on in a world that seems to be royal by turmoil as opposed to encourage by hope. Incredible and a great conversation with our panel. If you're

just joining us, it's Bloomberg sound on. You should subscribe to the podcast. Then you won't have to worry. As we spend time with Genie and Adam, I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. I want to ask you both while you hear about some politics in Florida, because Elon Musk has been the big story today around here in his effort to address the workforce at Twitter and is he gonna buy it? Is he not going to buy it? But it's actually creeped into politics this week by way of

Florida Governor Rhonda Santis. Uh. Interesting that we hear from Elon Musk who says he might be a supporter here Uh if he runs for president in Elon Musk says he maybe on board. Well, de Santis was delighted, I guess to get this support. Here was his reactions. So what I would say, um, you know, I'm focused on two. But with Elon Musk, what I would say is, you know, I welcome support from African Americans. What can I say? Okay, laughter from the crowd, And of course Elon Musk is

from South Africa. Uh. I guess he was trying to keep it light there, Jeannie, But what was the point of that? Is he trying to remind or suggest just because you're from Africa, you're you're not a person of color? Where are we going here? You know, I scratched. I scratched my head for a moment there before it hit me.

And you know, I think, you know, look at Rond De Santis is going to welcome the support of you know, the wealthiest man in the world at this point, certainly and Elon Muski, you know, should he take over Twitter, whether he does or not, he's you know, made this case that there's going to be a massive red wave this year that he leaning towards supporting De Santis. You know, of course, to Santis is going to welcome that, and so you know, if he can get that kind of

free media, why not take it? So, you know, I have to say, thinking about it, is probably a good line on to santiss partner, I say that grudgingly. Is he seeing that, Adam because he doesn't have the port

of many African Americans. I can't speak for what the governor said, but this is a very interesting comment because you know, we've seen the last couple of months what's happened between the Governor of Florida and Disney where disneyse numbers went from seventy seven favorable, fifteen unfavorable, too favorable, forty unfavorable in five weeks. So and then everyone's saying, well, that will really hurt the Governor of Florida because that means business is what we wanted to come to Florida.

They really want to come to Florida for a lot of reasons, and they're starting to understand the new politics. The corporations of American of the world are understanding from this governor in particular, that new the real politics of today is uh is different than what it was even six months ago, and they don't get on board, or more or worse, they try to challenge it and take it on. I think, like Mickey Mouse is very sad right now for what happened over the last couple of

months in Florida. I think the scantist is really doing that. As far as the is comment about Els, I don't know. I don't know there's a joke or not. I hope, I hope it was received that way. You know, they'll be playing this back if he of course ross but is Genie, Is he a real contender for twenty four? Are we're making too much out of this? Does it depend on whether Trump runs? It does depend in part

on whether Trump runs. But he is absolutely I think at least, you know, one of the top contenders on the GOP side again if Trump doesn't win, And Adams should not be talking about Mickey Mouse as sad he's always happy, Adam Um, But no, I think De Santis is is you know, certainly he has proven himself um in the governorship. And you know we should also mention another thing that Elon Musk tweeted was he tweeted that he voted for Mayra Flora's this, you know, huge win

for Republicans on the border of Texas. First time they've taken over that district in a hundred years, he said, first time he's voted for a Republican. So, you know, I think it is indicative of sort of this charge he's leading, at least to people who following millions of people on Twitter, does De Santis have to yield to Trump in twenty four Adam, Um, that everyone's watching to

see what happens. I can tell you one thing, Rhonda Santis is the alternative to don Donald Trump right now, and everyone around the country is starting to understand why and just if I don't mind be adding to the Mickey Mouse comment from Genie, he is sad Genie for one reason. He has stock and Disney too, as the first stock I ever bought in my life as a child was Disney. You got the certificate? And where they still doing that? I guess I had the mouse ears

and everything. Joe Matthew, I'm sorry to tell you. I think Mickey got it early on the options. Adam, I don't know he's still doing okay, maybe I'm wrong. This is a riot though. I do wonder where this ends up in twenty four and how long you know? Donald Trump is gonna drag this out till the bitter end, right, which is gonna make life difficult for a guy like the Santis Adam to figure out his plans. Well, here's

here's the bottom line, uh Trump. The Trump brand is done very well, I think overall, and the Republican primaries overall, he has had some loss of the overall has done well, but the de Santis message is really resonant and it's fresh, and that's what makes this very interesting in terms of how it all shakes out for the nomination. Will Joe Biden run against either of them? Jennie, you know, it's so many Democrats, that's the that's the million dollar questioned. Yeah.

And if he decides not to, just when is the timing? When does he tell people? Because that says a lot about whether he supports Kamala Harris or not. Why this is so much to figure out still, but that's why we have Genie and Adam Goodman. Thank you so much for being back with us today on Bloomberg Sound on, great panel and nice to see a Genie here in the nation's capital. We'll do it again tomorrow on the fastest hour in politics. Markets and traffic are on the way.

I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg