Sound On: Jan 6 Hearing, Trump Tantrums, Limo Lunge

lot going on cast, but I don't know. Things might get real, real bad. On January six, Sloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio, he lunged at the

Secret Service agent who said no, Mr President. Welcome to the fastest hour in politics, with new revelations today from the January six committee startling testimony about what happened inside the West Wing and the motorcade before and during the attack on the Capitol, and also who asked for part will get you up to date and discuss the findings with Asha Rangappa from Yale University's Jackson Institute for Global Affairs, former Associate dean at Yale Law School. Later, the fallout

from the Supreme Court's decision on Row. We'll discuss with Carry Franklin from the Center Reproductive Health Law and Policy at the u c l A School of Law, and our signature panel is in place on an important day. We'll talk all this out with Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie Chanzano and Rick Davis. The top witness before the January

six committee today certainly made a lot of news. This was the executive assistant to Donald Trump's Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, and her account of what happened in the days before and after the attack on the Capitol. It was enough to generate an unscheduled hearing. Let's listen, Miss Hutchinson. Did Rudy Giuliani ever suggest that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to January six? He did,

Miss Hutchinson. Did White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows every indicate that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to January six? Ms? Meadows did seek that pardon, Yes, ma'am, that's new information. Blueberg Government's Emily Wilkins was covering the hearing all day on Capitol Hill and joins us now with her take on some of this. Emily It's hard to overplay the significance of what we heard today. Yeah, Joe,

this was incredibly explosive testimony. UM. There was a reason that the committee uh who had which had initially canceled all of its hearings for this week, decided that they would hold this one, that they announced it at the last minute, that they were initially quite secretive about the fact that Cassidy Hutchinson would be their singular witness here

and would be testifying. UM. And it really was this inner look, this TikTok of what it was like in the day's leading up to January six, and what it was like to be around Trump and Trump's chief of staff Mark Meadows on January six. And there were just so many moments that we were previously unaware of that

really illustrate the president's state of mind. The fact that he begged initially to go to the capital, and when Secret Service went let him, he tried to grab the steering wheel of the limo and try and push a

Secret Service out of the way. The fact that Hutchinson said she heard this noise in her office and walked out to find a White House employee he who then gestured to a wall, and she saw that the wall had been smeared with ketchup, that there's a plaque shattered at the bottom, and was told that Trump was so upset over what it was going on that he threw his lunch. And perhaps most most shockingly, well several things.

Most shockingly that when Trump was told that rioters were chanting and hang Mike Pence, Hang Mike Pence, that Trump was said, this is what Pence deserves, and that I think this is the final one, Joe, And I know, I know there's a lot here. But when Trump was told when he was doing the rally at the White House, um, he was told that there are people here that have weapons and he is his response was that's fine, They're

not here to hurt me. And it really just shows what Trump's mindset was on that day, and as the riots before, during, and after attacking the Capitol. Emily, we don't know when the next hearing will be correct and after what we've seen today, I guess they could pop up at any time. We are expecting two more hearings to take place in mid July. I mean both the House and the Senate are most lawmakers of course. January, uh six excluded. Most of them are back home in

their districts this week as well as next week. They'll be returning to d C around July eleventh, July twelve, so that's what we're expecting to see more. And of course the committee is trying to wrap their work up with the cut least a few months to spare before the November elections, just to try and give time for everything to settle and for Americans to digest it before they hit the ballot box. Fascinating day in Washington, that's for sure, Emily, thank you so much for the update.

Bloomberg Governments and Only Wilkins, who will be guest hosting this broadcast later on this week. The panel used Cassidy Hutchinson to tell the story of what led to the events of January six, having already testified. She testified three times, of course, behind closed doors, and had already said that Rudy Giuliani and Mark Meadows discussed the idea of using alternate electors as far back as Thanksgiving, and the planning

for January six started shortly after. Here's Hutchinson describing a conversation an important moment here with Rudy Giuliani on the night of January two. As Mr Giuliani and I were walking to his vehicles that evening, he looked at me and said something to the effect of, cast are you excited for the sixth? It's going to be a great day.

I remember looking at him saying, Rudy, did you explain what's what's happening on the six uh And he had responded something to the effect of, We're going to the capital. It's going to be great. The President is going to be there, He's going to look powerful, he's going to be with the members, he's going to be with the senators. Talked to the Chief about it. Talked to the Chief about it. He knows about it. And did you go back then up to the West wing and tell Mr

Meadows about your conversation with Mr Giuliani. I did. After Mr Giuliani had left the campus that evening, I went back up to our office and I found Mr Meadows in his office on the couch. He was scrolling through his phone. Remember leaning against the doorway and saying, I said, an interesting conversation, as Rudy Mark, it sounds like we're going to go to the capital. He didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of there's a lot going on, Gusts, but I don't know.

Things might get real, real bad on January six things might get real, real bad. She would go on to describe, and I rate Donald Trump. Following his speech on the sixth on the Ellipse, when the Secret Service informed him that he would not be going to the capital as he wished, they did not have secure or access in place, Hutchinson says, the President lunged her word at the agent

in the presidential limo, saying I'm the effing president. This is where we start with Asha Rangappa, senior lecturer at Yale University's Jackson Institute for Global Affairs and former special Agents in the New York Division of the FBI, A shot. It's great to have you with us here. The news media describing this as a bombshell today. Did you hear anything that changed the game and could lead to an indictment or criminal charges today? Yes, definitely, and thank you

for having me on. I think what happened today, what was revealed today, actually expands the possible criminal exposure of Trump and his inner circle. And this is because until now we've really had two different pieces of the overall plot. One is what I call the legal blueprint. This was concocted by John Eastman. This involved the fake elector scheme from the states and the vice president rejecting the certified slate of electors from several states, um and somehow getting

the election to Trump. Then we've had the mob and the militia groups who stormed the Capitol, and we've had a couple of those groups, the Oathkeepers and the Proud Boys, arrested and charged with seditious conspiracy, in addition to eight hundred other individuals. What today did was create a link between those two parts, and specifically to show that there was fore knowledge of violence on January six, and potentially that there was an intention for that violence to be

used as part of the pressure campaign for Pence. Let's actually hear a piece of that. This is once again Cassidy Hutchinson talking about what they had learned. The President had been told that weapons were being brought into the area of the Ellipse, and some folks actually wouldn't even go through security because of what they were caring. Let's

listen to that. I recall Tony and are having a conversation with Mark probably around ten am ten fifteen am, where I remember Tony mentioning knives, guns in the form of pistols and rifles, UM, bear spray body armor, spears and flag poles. Spears were one item, flag poles for one item, and then Tony had relieved me something to the effect of and these I think people are fastening spears onto the ends of flag poles, fastening spears under

the ends of flagpoles. There's there is just incredible symbolism there for starters shop people using the American flag literally as a weapon. In that case, that's speaking to a point you just made. So they knew that violence was at hand, not only because of the planning but the very weapons they carried that day, including by the way, assault weapons UM. There were reports of people who had

a R fifteens. I think the most damning part of this UH segment of the testimony was Hutchinson saying that Trump said, let them in. I know they're not here to hurt me. And you know in that statement there there's just so much packed in there. How does he know like he has he clearly has some idea that these people are safe there on his side. They're a part of his tribe. Um and also he wants them there, and he not only wants them as a part of his rally, but he indicates that he wants them to

march on the Capitol. He wants to send them to the Capitol, knowing that they are armed with all kinds of weapons, including the most destructive assault weapons. UM. I thought he wanted to go as well. It was extraordinary. We know that the President wanted to go to the capital and deliver a speech and in fact personally enter the House chamber, which would have been an incredible moment, certainly as rioters were busy. If I don't know if this would have been carried out the same way, but

he was. He was told no from the Secret Service. Asha, what's the next leg here? We just talked about a number of really important things that we learned today. We also know that the Department of Justice is watching these hearings. Are they building an indictment now? As Mark Meadows or any of the top White House officials we're talking about here going to jail. Well, let's remember that there are multiple phases of an investigation, and the indictment and charging

is at the very end. Look, there is clearly probable cause to to investigate Trump, Meadows, Ethanan, all these people for a number of crimes ranging from conspiracy need to defer the United States, to conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding too after today, in my opinion, incitement to insurrection and even seditious conspiracy. Um, they will need more evidence

than what was just presented today. But I think we have to take the totality of the bigger picture that's being built by these hearings and what's coming out, and then the question is do they have enough to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt? And then is Mark Garland gonna charge? I think that investigation has to be underway, um, and they're definitely building. I mean, if they are, the evidence is very much mounting to make a compelling case.

Along all of the charges that I just mentioned is one we haven't mentioned yet, and that's witness tampering. We don't know who got these messages, but Liz Cheney today shared a couple of messages. Uh, some of them were worked in text form. Another one was a phone call. You know, somebody wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. He knows you're loyal, he knows you'll do the right thing when you go in. We wouldn't want anything to happen to you. This is like watching

uh a mob movie for crying out loud. How important is that charge on its own witness tampering. It's huge And you know we have seen this before. This was a part of the Mueller investigation. UH, witness tampering, obstruction. Um. You know, these are bread and butter crimes. They're often poo poodas process crimes, but they become part of the equation as well. And in trying to tamper with the witness,

you are also demonstrating a consciousness of guilt. You know, if what you are doing subtly um, as you said, incode, is to try to dissuade or persuade the witness to be favorable to you or the people around you, it's because you have something to hide. So and we we've seen that already with the you know, wanting to be

on the pardon list preemptively so um. But you know, those process crimes will come into play, and you know, I have a sneaking feeling that that we'll see some possible obstruction behavior when when all is said and done after after the hearings. Uh, I'm glad you could join us. I appreciate your insights here. Let's let's talk as we learn more. Ah show Rangappa of Yale University's Jackson Institute for Global Affairs, former special agent here in the New

York FBI. I'm Joe Matthew in New York at Bloomberg World Headquarters, joined in studio by Rick Davis. Of course, Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeanie Chanzano is also with us as we assemble our panel here for an extended conversation on an important day. First of all, great to have both of you with us here. We couldn't do this without you. I want you to hear. Uh. This one piece of the hearing today that seems to be generating the most news,

even if it's not the most important. This idea of the President lunging not at the wheel but at a secret service agent. He had just done the speech on the ellipse on January six. He thought he was on his way up to the capital along with everyone else who was there, and he was told no, here's the story. When the President got in the beast, he was under the impression from Mr Meadows that the off the record movement to the Capitol was still possible and likely to happen,

but that Bobby had more information. So once the President had gotten into the vehicle with Bobby, he thought that they were going up to the Capitol, and when Bobby had related to him, we're not. We don't have the assets to do it. It's not secure. We're going back to the West wing. The President had very strong, very angry response to that. Um Tony described him as being irate. The President said something to the effect of I'm the

fving President. Take me up to the capital now, to which Bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. The President reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr Angel grabbed his arm, said sorry, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We're going back to

the west wing. We're not going to the capital. Mr Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Angle and Mr. When Mr Ronado had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clasicals that would be his collar bone, Cassidy Hutchinson. I wonder if she becomes a household name now Rick Davis. Uh, my goodness, her life just changed. First of all, the witness, Why do you think they didn't bring her out on the

first day of the first night. Well, the only thing I can tell is that, um, some of this testimony she's already given to the committee, so they knew how explosive the information was. And um, the only thing I've noticed in the reporting is that she recently got new counsel, So it may be that the lawyers that were now representing her thought that she would be better off actually making a public disclosure of this information. Uh. The reality is that it does remind us that this committee has

not done with their job. There's an enormous amount of information, some of it is highly explosive, like today's hearing, and that their their job is going to continue for some time. And we talked so much right now about the Justice

Department picking up. But I want to see where this leads us, and I want to see where this committee brings us, because they've done what I think is an extraordinary job so far of painting a picture, creating a narrative that is understandable and and and very nerve racking when you think that this is the kind of contact the conduct the President United States has exhibited in an

effort to try an overturn election that he lost. Jennie, people were glued to this today because it's highly entertaining. I know that it's not probably a very popular thing to say, we're journalists here and we're covering this story. But these are wild stories, and anyone would stop and say, my god, what did you hear? That they're gonna be talking about it over dinner and at work tomorrow. I guess I'm just wondering, is that what we had today or was this a game changing day of testimony that

builds the criminal case. It was a game changing day. And and just to follow up on what Rick was saying, Um, she not only got new counsel, but we understand her fourth death position was last week, and they were concerned about the danger she was in, the danger to her she was in for what she knew, and that's why they had her testify live today. And I think it also ties into what Liz Cheney did at the end,

which was talk about witness tampering. I think there's a real concern that they have witnesses who are being tampered with. And you know, you know, I know both you and Rick are loyal to me and you'll do the right thing. So I feel confident about that, Joe. But nothing's going to happen to that pretty face. Although I don't know,

ask Rick, he's onze here. I trust you. But but can I just say I I just want to say that you know this young woman, the bravery she showed today to come out publicly, she is if you go into the White House and as she did at this level, you are a Trump loyalist. He has been attacking her already on truth social She's done what people like Pat Zippoloni and these other men in the White House won't do.

And I think hopefully this changes some minds. But she deserves a lot of credit for having the courage to go out today and say what she did, because she is very much alone amongst Trump loyalists and doing this At this point, Liz Cheney shared two messages that she said witnesses got before they were deposed. She did not name those witnesses. I'd just love to know who we're talking about here, but they shared the messages. These are

text messages presumably or emails that they got beforehand. These are direct quotes. What they said to me is, as long as I continue to be a team player, they know that I'm on the team and I'm doing the right thing, I'm protecting who I need to protect, I'll continue to stay in the good graces in Trump world.

Uh that's the first text. The next one. They've reminded me a couple of times Trump does read transcripts, and just keep that in mind, as I proceved through my depositions and interviews with the committee, Rick, you really think Donald Trump's hanging around reading transcripts for one? But two? How important is the witness tampering component of this case? Yeah, I mean it just reminds me of sort of an

ongoing criminal enterprise. Right. It doesn't sound like a white house that's that's that's supposed to uphold the democratic norms of our society. It sounds like the mob movie. Yeah, it's a component movie, and and and Donald Trump is the mob boss and and and Honestly, I mean, I don't know how you can take it any other way. We want to believe something different, right, we really do want there to be a happy ending here, but there's

not gonna be one. And and whatever ultimately happens, I think it's incredibly important that that Cassie Hutchison major testimony public that that this committee is informing the public, they're setting a historical record. A lot of people ask me, what do think it's gonna come out of this, and in the reality is if nothing comes out of it other than the fact that we now have a historical record that every generation can look and say, you know what,

our democracy was under attack by President United States. Here are the details associated with there. They're they're they're the facts of the case. And we should learn from this House leader though, who's saying that this is illegitimate, unconstitutional, and don't listen to what they're saying. Yeah, and and these are the same people who evidently we're gonna meet Donald Trump at the door of the House of Representatives and walking down to disrupt an election election count. So

I mean, like, consider the source. I mean, honestly, I don't think we're done yet. As I said earlier, I think this committee's got work to do. We have not heard about what kind of conducts some of these House Republicans were doing. Were they showing some of these marauders of the capital ways to get around in advance of

this siege on on August or on January six? So I mean, like, that's why I think that we're not going to really understand the full picture of the conspiracy until this committee ends, And whether or not the Justice Department picks it up is going to be up to them. But at least the American public will know the facts. And and Cassie Hutchinson today did a real good job for our democracy to lay it out there. Jene, How does the committee maintain credibility to do what just described here?

When when Republicans who are still serving, including the man who could be the former speaker, say that this is illegitimate tell people not to believe they're findings. Well, you know, time is not on the committee side. But I give them so much credit for what they have done so far. And I do think that Donald Trump is right at this point when he says that Kevin McCarthy made a big mistake by not seating people. One thing that has happened with this committee is they've been able to tell

a story. They haven't gotten muddled up with back and forth or partisan bickering or any of that, and so you know, this has really worked to their advantage. And I think the Committee is absolutely on the right track. If the Republicans take the House, you know, obviously their work is going to have to be done by that point. But you know, I do think just back to this, you know, the sort of mob component of this. This is very much like what Michael Cohen described when he

talked very early on about how Donald Trump operates. It was never a straight out don't do this or I'll do this. It was these threats, and it makes it difficult then to convict somebody. And that's where I think some of this legal and criminal exposure gets difficult for somebody like a Merrick Garland. I think people like you know,

Mark Meadows and others, they're exposed. I'm not sure at this point that Trump is exposed yet, but I think the Committee is working up to that, and they may find themselves there if this continues, and particularly if more Republicans are moved to come out by what happened today. We'll see about that. Of course, we'll talk about it if and when it happens here on sound On the panel stays with us Rick and Jeanie for the hour. As we turn next to the fallout from Row. This

is Bloomberg. One of the first things President Biden said after the Supreme Court's ruling on Roe v. Wade on Friday was the need for a new task force that he was going to create two investigate what needed to be done to protect women across the country, ensure their ability to travel, and even ensure their access to prescribed medications. Today, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, Javier but Sarah, was asked about this in testimony on Capitol Hill. The

outlined actions that his department is taking. They would be the overseers of such a task force here in the wake of what he called the despicable court ruling. Arius to every American who's impacted, my apologies today, As I said, we can't tell you there's a silver bullet. But what I am saying to you is that the more we dig, we will do everything we can with what we find to make sure we're protecting women's reproductive health care services.

It takes a little time because we want to do it right and we want to do it acording to the law. This is where we begin with Carry Franklin, who's joining us from the Center on Reproductive Health Law and Policy at the u c l A School of Law. Carry, it's great to have you here. Your thoughts on this to begin with on on the extent that the Biden administration can actually help on a federal level women who are impacted by this decision. Are are they promising too much? Well?

I think the Secretary of Health and Human Services was careful to say they're looking into it. They don't know exactly what they'll be able to do. I do think they'll be able to move forward with medication abortion and the f d A saying that this medication regime is safe, it's been proven safe, and state laws to the contrary but bar these abortion pills because on the fury that they're unsafe, UH conflicts with federal law, and it's perhaps preempted by the FDA. That would be a move the

federal government could make. It's not clear what else they can do. Can you explain that much? Though? The idea you that UH, this medication by mail, if I should be calling it, that is different than getting an abortion procedure in that state. How would how would states delineate the difference. Well, some states have passed laws are considering laws that bar medication abortion on the grounds that it's unsafe, And the FDA has studied this and said, that's simply

not true. We have years and years of data and evidence showing that, uh, these medications are safe, and we want to preempt those state laws, which the federal government and federal law can do to say that states are not able to make those rulings. I think the problem is, uh that a state could say, Okay, well we we could even concede that these pills are safe, but they bar our criminal abortion. Where we were barring abortion medication

for criminal reasons. And it's not clear can be done well that that, And it sure seems like that's where we're heading in some states here. My goodness, your neighbor in Texas could turn you in for taking that medication, right. That's that's how I understand the law there. Yes, Texas has passed this law that not just anyone in Texan, but but anyone in the country or anywhere presumably could be liable under this Texas law. That's why we've seen a lot of states in recent days on the coasts

passing laws saying we're not going to participate. We're not going to cooperate with these vigilante and other state laws that try to reach beyond borders into California, into Massachusetts to try to capture people there, uh and punish people

for activity that goes on lawfully in those other states. Rry, I'd love your legal view on what's happening in courts since Friday, because you know, people saw trigger laws taking effect almost immediately in some states, and we saw judges temporarily block abortion bands in Louisiana, in Utah, while a federal court, as I read from the Associated Press in South Carolina, says a law restricting the procedure after six weeks would take effect there immediately. Uh. As this now

goes to basically courthouses, state level court houses around the country. Here, is there going to be a slower role on these trigger laws taking effects as judges consider their impact. Perhaps? I mean, we've just opened a Pandora's box of legal questions on every issue you can imagine, and this will

be one of them. So one thing that some states are trying to do is put into effect law old, old laws that row prevented from going into effect, and some courts are saying, no, those laws are anequated or those laws are fake. They don't make clear what procedures are allowed, and we can't have laws like that, so they're stopping those laws. There also maybe provisions in state law under state constitutions that bar certain of these restrictions

that states are trying to put in. And that's what the state courts are trying to figure out right now, now that the federal protection has gone what kind of protections exist under state law that might bar these recent

attempts by anti abortion states to criminalize abortion. So I guess they'll have hearings on these trigger laws and we could find ourselves then carry by the end of the summer, I'm assuming with thirteen states having implemented them, is that your expectations we could We absolutely quite a few states I believe will have bands in place, uh within months. Lastly, then the states that are actually writing laws to protect women coming from other states, what prevents them from being

charged with a crime when they go home now much? Uh? You know, California and Massachusetts, Illinois, New York, they're trying to pass protections. Those protections can protect their the providers, and it can protect people in California and Massachusetts wherever um uh from prosecution in these other states. It can say we're not going to revoke your licenses. I would say,

we're not going to pantalyze anyone who comes here. But once those people return to their home states where abortion is criminalized, it's not clear that California could do anything to help them, right. Yeah, that's We spoke last evening with the Attorney general from Delaware who said basically the same thing. It's it strikes me that we're about to enter a world where there's a lot of secret travel

going on. Carrie, thank you for your insights. We'd like to stay in touch with you on this story because God knows it's going to be unfolding and evolving over weeks and months. I think we just established Carrie Franklin is a director the Center of Reproductive Health Law Policy you see l a school of law. And we'll reassemble the panel next on this. Rick Davis and Jeannie Chanzano are with us. Are Bloomberg Politics contributors with some very

difficult debates to be had around all of this. That's why they're here. Of course, we'll check traffic and the markets on the way for you as well. On the fastest hour in politics. Thanks for spending part of your Tuesday with us. I'm Joe Matthew in New York. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg. So long with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. The statement is out from the White House, which makes things look and feel a lot more official.

Having read the headline already on the terminal, Finland Sweden closer to joining NATO with Turkey deal. It was important today from President Biden sit down with President Urdawan of Turkey. This of course as they arrived in Madrid for the NATO summit on the heels of the G seven that was happening in Germany. These are coming back to back. It's not just you. There are two different major summits

going on here and looks like the meeting works. Statement just out from the White House Joe Biden, I congratulate a Turkey, Finland and Sweden on signing a trilateral memorandum which paves the way for allies to invite Finland and Sweden to join NATO at the Madrid summit. And so we reassembled our panel Genie Chanzano and Rick Davis, Bloomberg

Politics contributors. Genie, this is a pretty major development here and would in fact be something to show for the summit that's taking place, A significant victory for NATO, for Joe Biden. Um, the White House has got to be very, very pleased by this, and it really does. You know, it is a deliverable um and a big one for this summit. And you know, it's it's a significant expansion of NATO, the largest we've seen in years. And it

also shows how much Putin has lost. I mean, the whole reason he went into Ukraine, well, one of the major reasons was to you know, restrict this NATO expansion, and it has now come on his doorstep. Exactly what he feared most has now happened. So this is a huge victory for the Biden administration. It's not a done deal. We should let everyone know here, Rick, But boy, this is the last thing I'm assuming Vladimir Putin saw happening when he started all. Yeah, I think this is a

major strategic error by Vladimir Putin. You know, his incursion into the Ukraine was supposed to restore the Motherland, and you know, create this this broader you know, Russia into the East. And and the reality is, uh, he's strengthened NATO. He's I mean, like no better example that than Finland and Sweden, you know, Helsinki and Stockholm joining the team, right, Sweden who was known for its independence for three years. Uh.

And and and so that's one thing too. I mean, there's already a hundred thousand new troops in the border of NATO countries next to Russia. So that's actually worst news even for Vladimir Putin. And an agreement coming out of this weekend's discovered this week's discussions is to move that to three hundred thousand NATO troops. I mean, so the idea that he's like, you know, uh taking away the heft of NATO has resulted in exactly the opposite. And and so I don't know how he actually rationalizes

at himself, but uh, it's really bad news for vlad Yeah. Well, so that said, he's going to steam over this tonight or has been. I'm assuming maybe he'll throw a plate with ketchup at the wall, Genie. But I'm trying to figure out how he'll interpret this. If if a couple of Big twenty nine's would be seen as escalatory. What is this going to do? Well? I like how Rick calls him lad. That might make him throw catch up

against the wall. Um, you know he I think he's going to try to use this to his advantage, and you could see playing Devil's advocate how that works. He tells people in Russia that this is exactly what I told you was happening. NATO is advancing to our borders. You know, what would they think if we were creeping into Canada against the United States are up by Mexico. This is what they're doing. So in some ways it

does work. You could see how he will work this to his advantage and say, this is all the more reason we need to fight. We need to continue and increase our efforts visa the Ukraine because they're doing exactly what I warned you about there, trying to destroy us in our way of life, and this is a perfect

example of that, the West against the East. Does he use this as a justification to attack supply lines or somehow expand this beyond the borders of Ukraine, Rick or more heavily bombard Kiev, where he knows our diplomatic Corps is located. Well, he's he's bombarding Keep now, so that's already happening. Um, it escalates a lot if he goes outside of the Ukraine conflict, especially if it touches any NATO country, where all of NATO would then be seen

to to get back into this this war. I would say one thing, he may be able to spin it in Russia, but there are a hundred countries that are not part of the sanction regime now. And part of the message that this NATO Summit is sending a along with the Seventh Summit, is that you need to get on board with the rest of this This this is massive. Billions of dollars are going to go to reconstruction in Ukraine, billions of dollars going to go to the defense of Ukraine.

UM other other countries like Finland and Sweden joining NATO. That's a message to these other countries that you need to get on board and start taking sides. And and they're they're not going to let these independent countries who have not put on sanctions get away with it. This is going to be the next phase of the development of this war. So when we talk about new sanctions,

then Genie, it's a new scale of sanctions. I mean, or will we be in a situation where Jake Sullivan is is flying around the world trying to button up the rest of those countries. Yeah, I mean they're doing

that now. They would absolutely like to do that. And I was struck by the way as as Jake Sullivan does his work that he very clearly tried to get McCrone out of the way of the cameras when McCrone was explaining to Biden that he had spoken with with with uh MBS and they didn't have more oil to produce. So I think a very interesting development is going to be what happens with the President's trip, because Russia knows,

I mean, they want this thing to last. They want to outlast the United States and NATO and the West keep this going so domestically these alliances fall apart and the politics become too hard. The President is trying to buttress that with the sanctions, decreasing oil prices and those kinds of things, but he has his work cut out for him. If you just listen to that little clip with McCrone telling Biden, you're not going to be able to get them to produce more because they don't have

more to produce. I think that's a big morning sign. Is that true? Rick, the President wouldn't go there unless there was more oil. Oh yeah, I think that that they're gonna find oil under any rock they can. They're going to increase production as much as they can. It's a short term thing, right, I mean, really not talking about anything other than getting it through the summer so

that these prices, gas prices don't increase. There's already some evidence that they're decreasing sing and so uh and and by the way, this is a big part of the secondary sanctions that that we were just talking about. The Middle East is still doing business with Russia. And so in addition to saying, hey, we we need your oil, they're gonna say we need your support. And I'm not sure it's a quid pro quote, but there's gonna be

a lot of heavy pressure in that regard. For five months into this genie, we spoke yesterday a bit about the potential for war fatigue, for exhaustion here uh by Americans. Five months in extend that to November, what's this conversation gonna feel like? You know, I don't think we know you, I think so far Americans have been united. I give the Biden administration a lot of kudos for the way they have managed this so far. But you know, I am a little concerned about that. You know, will be

there as long as it takes. We're going to get this over by the end of the year. Those red lines can be a bit damaging and a bit dangerous, But so far the American public has been in support. The one real key issue I think here is does at some point this argument that you're spending billions of dollars overseas and yet we are suffering at home come back to her politically, and that's something the White House

is going to have to address. They've got to keep making the case that this is an our interest, not the interests of other people somewhere else that you know very little about. Spending time with Rick and Genie. In the remaining moments of our hour here today, the fastest hour in politics, will end where we began with the hearing, a surprise hearing of the January six Committee, and many references throughout this hour to throw and catch up at

the wall. So let's listen to what we actually heard today Cassidy Hutchinson talking about Uh, remember when the billboard the Attorney General did this interview with the AP and said that he couldn't find any evidence that the election was not stolen. You wonder what happened that day inside the West Wing, inside the Residents or the oval. Cassidy

Hutchinson brought us there. After Mark had returned, I left the office and went down to the dining room, and I noticed that the door was propped open and the valet was inside the dining room changing the tablecloth off of the dining room table. He motioned for me to come in and then pointed towards the front of the room, near the fireplace, mantel and the TV, where I first noticed there was catchup dripping down the wall, and there's

a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. The valet had articulated that the President was extremely angry at the Attorney General's AP interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall um, which was causing them to have to clean up. So I grabbed a towel and started wiping the catch up off of the wall to help the valet out um, and he said something to the effect of he's really ticked off about this. I would stay clear of him for right now. He's really really ticked off about this

right now. Not exactly aligning with the current environment when it comes to office politics, Rick Davis. But we we we know this kind of rings true because well, he puts ketch up on everything. The man is a catchup fanatic. And uh and it's sad m I served in the White House with Ron Reagan, who never took his jacket off in the Oval office because he felt that it required that level of uh, distinguished behavior. And and here's

a president who's throwing plates against the wall. You know, those plates are owned by the American people, Mr President. I mean, like you know, you're you're these are not yours to break. So uh, I don't know. I mean, of all the incursions that that Donald Trump did while president United States, this is probably one of the minor ones, but it is one of the more entertaining ones. Well, I suppose there we go again with that. Jennie. She said it wasn't the first time he was throwing plates

around the White House. What it's stunning, and you know, you listen to it, it's stunning. On the one hand, it's not so stunning on the other And one thing I kept trying to understand was he's grabbing the wheel. What was he going to do if he got to the Capitol? On January six, Sanity all around the dog that caught the car Rick and Jeannie with us here our panel on a Great Sound on edition live from World Headquarters in New York passed the catch up. This is Bloomberg