Sound On: Biden Oil Release, Ohio Debate Throw-Down

Then he kissed his ass up and then he endorsed. This guy goes on National TV and says, I love Nancy Pelow. Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. The White House set to tap the Strategic oil Reserve with three weeks to the election. Welcome to the fastest hour in politics, as Bloomberg News leads the way. On the top story in Washington today, up to fifteen million more barrels of crude from our emerging see stockpile to

keep gas prices from rising. But will it work? We'll talk with Bob McNally of Rapid Dan Energy, author of the book Crude Volatility. Later, it was Fight Night for Senate candidates in Ohio and Utah. We'll talk to bates and races with Bloomberg Government's Jack Fitzpatrick, who's on the ground for round two in Youngstown. Analysis from our signature panel Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis and Jeannie Chanzano. There

were us. The President not expected to say it out loud until tomorrow, but Bloomberg broke the news early today. The administration is set to release more oil, at least another ten to fifteen million barrels of crude from the spr White House Press Secretary Koreine John Pierre was asked about it early in the briefing today and well, she

wasn't about to step in front of the president. He said last week he would have more to share on what he is doing to bring gas prices or what he will continue to do to bring gas prices down. But I do want to add a couple of things here. Gas prices have fallen by a dollar and fifteen cents from their peak, which was not too long ago. The ninety eight consecutive day declined this summer was the fastest

in over a decade. There you are, in case you're playing along on your home game a hundred to make that a dollar fifteen. But of course we were looking at hundred dollar a barrel oil not that long ago, and we have seen a bit of a creep higher where we are today. It was just heard from Charlie Pale sixty two for w t I. Gasoline is another issue, though, another matter, and this would complete the original plan rolled out in the spring to be clear to release a

total of a hundred eighty million barrels. This would bring us to that point. The White House now also needs to talk about replenishing, refilling the SPR. We talked about it all with Bob McNally, founder and president of energy consulting firm Rapid and Energy, author of the book Crude Volatility, The History and Future of Boom Bust Oil Prices, and I'm thinking you could probably write another volume now, Bob, welcome back. Well this actually make a difference to prices

between now and November eight. Well, you know, we're thanks, Joe, we're pricing it in already. We're down today on the news that Bloomberg broke, and others are now start to pick up that the President is likely to include an SPR draw And you know, I would say fifteen million barrels is probably the minimum. I mean, he has the option of speeding up some congressionally mandated sales and going higher. So,

you know, I think that's that's being priced in right now. Um, you know, no, I think the main reason oil prices have tumbled since the summer is that recession risks have in China, and China slowdown has sort of overtaken the narrative from Russia disruption, which sort of dominated in the second quarter. Right, we went from eighty to almost one forty on Russia. We thought we're gonna lose three million barrels a day. In April, the wolf didn't come in

the village. Recession took over, and notwithstanding the OPEC plus cut, which did give us a little bit of a rally, you know, we're back into recession fears and headed down, I think. And the Saudi Arabia showed up in the village though, right, and that you know that just the whiff of cutting production got prices moving higher again, that's right. I mean, I think the market was surprised by the

size of the quota cut. Two million barrels a day, which is going to mean about one million barrels a day, a real cuts. But you know that's after they were actually increasing production a little bit in September, So it was quite a turn about surprise the market. But look

right after that we just started heading down again. Well, White House economic advisor Brandes was talking about this, this is just two weeks ago, speaking to the benefit of releasing this oil from the spr I want you to listen to the way he put it, Bob, and will will have you replied, you don't have to take my work for if you look at most serious oil market analysts, they would say, you know, one of the most significant drivers of blunting oil price increases over the last set

of three or four months was the president's decision to release a million barrels a day from the Strateina controllings. So one of the most significant, I guess you can couch that a little bit, Bob, But your point is that many other factors were involved here, and if that's the case, why release more? Well no, yeah, I would call it one of the factors, not the most significant. I think the mostificate was the failure of Russians supply to collapse this summer. Just hard to overstate how important

that was for the rally earlier this year. Secondly it was China, uh, and it's slowed down and in the SI shimping sort of quote unquote reelection reappointment and what that means for shutdowns and so forth. So it's a factor. You know, it kept commercial inventories from drawing more than they would have, but I wouldn't call it one of the most significant factors. Look, you can only play this game for so long, right, we have about four hundred

million barrels left. They can keep on draining it. But you know, at some point you mentioned refilling. They're gonna have to refill if they want to have a strategic asset. And so I've always said, you know, this isn't like going going against OPEC plus with the sprs, like going into a fight with you know, the guys that they came forty seven with a square guns. Right, It's a finite resource. You get to use it once. And I think this is going to make the coming boom cycle

in oil prices even boom. Here if we just depleted this emergency stockpile. So you can only use this thing once. We heard from the White House Jared Bernstein, another economic advisor, that that that the strategic reserves about half full right now. I don't know if that is drives with the numbers of barrels you're talking about, But at what point do you start buying? I mean, this is lowering prices. Do you kick out a whole bunch of oil kind of

push prices down? I realize you're manipulating the market, and then start buying it back to stockpilot in the SPR. Yeah, and it is. There's about five million barrels left. The capacities seven and seventeen million barrels, so it's little over half. Uh and uh, look, if you believe in the SPR and uh and I think most people do. And I think the Biden administration, to its credit, does You've got

to refill this thing now? Look, President Trump wanted to refill it when oil prices were collapsing in the second quarter of twenty and I think if we get a big decline in oil prices, it would make sense. And I would hope the administration would start to refill it. I e. Buy low and uh, you know, don't sell until you really need it kind of a thing. I think they will. I think I think they you know, there's been press reports they've been kicking around ideas for

how to refill it. They have a rule that would make it easier for d OE to do so, and so hopefully we'll hear something about refilling as well as drawing. There's also an argument inside the White House right now, Bob McNally about potentially banning or putting controls on oil exports, and there's an argument about what that would actually do to prices. It's not as simple as saying, hey, well

we've got more supply here. There could actually be uh an increase in prices in some areas because of the patchwork, the way the different ways the different regions of the country work. The Northeast, for instance, imports a lot of heating oil in the wintertime. Do you see that as

something that should happen and what effects would it have? Well, here again, I would invoke Brian Deese and have have your consult most energy experts, including me, and I think we would say spanning exports of certainly of crude oil would make gasoline prices and diesel prices go up. Okay, would not help the consumer. Now, what's being discussed is banning the export of refined products gasoline and distolate and

so forth. Look, if you didn't waive the Jones Act and you couldn't use boats, prices would just go up on the coasts right coast with don't have to import higher hire barrels. Refiners would drop runs, We'd have less supply. It would be an own goal, Joe, one of the biggest owned goals and energy policy counterproductive. Now, look, if you waive the Jones Act, which would upset the Maritime Union. If you did that, you might get a few weeks of lower oil prices, gasoline prices, but then they will

be higher later on. So I would defy you to find a single energy expert who thinks that banning exports is a good idea, even if you want to reduce prices for consumers. Fascinating conversation. This is why you have to bring in an expert on this stuff, because my god, I can't imagine, Bob, what you think. People talk like they know what they're talking about in the energy market, and they're usually wrong. And so we reach out to Bob mcdalan and I thank you Bob, founder and president

Rapid and Energy, his book Crude Volatility. I'm Joe Matthew and Washington. This is the fastest hour in politics, which is why we need to hear from the panel on this. I know we've had this conversation a few what tens of millions of barrels ago, But Jennie, Shannon Zano and Rick Davis are with us our signature panel Bloomberg Politics contributors. Genie, are we really doing this all over again here? Three weeks before the election? My gosh. They they accused Joe

Biden of buying votes with debt, student loan debt forgiveness. Uh, this would be even more direct, would it not? It would And one of the questions if it worked in One of the questions asked today is you know better than I do? Was was of the Press secretary. Is this employ ahead of the mid terms? And she did not directly answer that question as far as I could tell. But that's, you know, part of the challenge here for

the administration and Democrats. And I was struck again by the fact she's still using Putin priceyche is they've wanted to explain the higher prices as a result of the Russian War in Putin and put that on his back. And yet for voters that's not how they see it. They see the prices as a result of the administration and policy mistakes, and that's the difficulty the administration is facing. And three weeks ago, I looks like they're going to do this tomorrow. It does look get rick, Is it

a good idea? Well, I think that they're trying to do everything they can to try and buy votes. And like what you said that no question of student loan program was just a vote buying mechanism. And this is the same thing. I mean, oil price, gas prices already going down every town almost ten cents in the last week. I mean, what are they trying to accomplish? It isn't already happening. And as Bob McNally said, you know, if recession fears continue, that will help drive the price of

gas down. So you know they're gonna opec is cutting right right exactly. So I don't really get what they're hoping to achieve here other than a pr stunt. Fascinating listening to Karine John Pierre kind of danced around these questions knowing she couldn't make the announcement for Joe Biden. He's going to do that tomorrow, But talk about the work that's been done, and she decided to break it down state by state. Fascinating because the choice of states

here there, they're basically all battleground states. They're basically all states where we have major contests of the balance of power here in Washington on the Let's listen, just to give you a few states, California is down almost thirty cents this week. Wisconsin is down over twenty cents this week. Oregon is down over twenty cents this week. Michigan is down about seventeen sixteen cents this week. Ohio and Indiana

are down thirteen cents this week. And so those are the few states that we're seeing the sharp declines that are not they're not coming down. Is that a coincidence, Genie, that all those states were chosen? No coincidence. And you know again, I kept thinking, if they're declining and she's going through them so methodically, the decline, why are they going to release now or tomorrow? And you know, she didn't really have an answer for that that I thought

was you know, resounding or convincing. Rick and Genie stay with us for the hour our signature panel. As we turned next to as well funding for the war in Ukraine. There's a big overlap in these two stories here. And the man who wants to hold the gavel in the House says there could be some controls on money headed from the US to Ukraine. More ahead, This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on

Bloomberg Radio. A big part of the conversation today inside the White House went from oil prices, energy prices and the putin price hike, as Genie reminded us, and the administration likes to call it to funding for the war in Ukraine. This of course, after Kevin McCarthy got the conversation started, he spoke with puncha bowl and of course he's pretty sure he's going to be the Speaker of the House in a few weeks. Quote. I think people are gonna be sitting in a recession and they're not

going to write a blank check to Ukraine. He said, they just won't do it. It's not a free blank check. Then he went on to talk about the things of Biden administration is not doing that will cost money, like the border Ukraine is import and he says again quoting, but at the same time. It cannot be the only thing they do, and it cannot be a blank check. Mark Warner, Senator from Virginia, speaking with Bloomberg today, spoke to David West and on balance of power about this issue.

It's not the first time we've heard this from some elements of the right, but never from a mainstream politician like Kevin McCarthy. I do fear that there is this Trump led America alone contingent that could have greatly increased power in the House, and a Republican House next year could undermine that support America alone. Remembering, of course Warner is on the Intelligence Committee, He's deep inside this conversation

when it comes to funding. Karine John Pierre, the Press secretary at the White House, we thank leaders across the House and Senate, Republicans and Democrats. As I've just just said, it was a bipartisan effort who are working with us to hold putin accountable and support Ukraine to defend itself from Russia's war crimes and atrocities. So this is again we're gonna closely engage, We're going to closely monitor these, uh these discussions. Don't want to get ahead of what

what what Congress might look like, uh, next year. I don't want to go into hypotheticals, but again, we're going to continue to engage with Congress. Very careful, very careful answer there. We want to us upset anybody before Congress comes back to town and we have to talk this out. Let's assemble the panel to get around on this, because it is interesting we start talking about holding putin accountable. That would be another way of looking at the spr

release if it did in fact lower prices. Rick Davis and Jeannie Chanzano are with us. Rick, is this about to happen? This is going to be a conversation. And we've gone down this road before on this program, but a new Republican majority in the House could mean it more difficult conversation about funding Ukraine. Yeah, it's definitely a bigger conversation in the House, and it would be in the Senate. Although there were eleven senators GOP senators who

voted against the forty in dollar supplement in May. So, um, you know, and and and as you point out, this starts with the leadership. This is not like a renegade group of Republicans who want to cause trouble, you know, this is it includes Steven Scalise and you know at least Stephonic and you know the Whip and the number three. So like this is the entire leadership of the Republican House of Representatives talking about going soft on Ukraine. And

it's uh, it's a big departure for Republicans. Giving away a national security issue like this to Democrats would be a massive disappointment to most of the what I would call old school Republican orthodoxy on you know, sort of the hawks in foreign policy. Would it leave Genie of the bid deministration uh, to its own devices? I mean they can can they can continue to send things to Ukraine and draw down our own AMMO in the process. They can, but of course they also want to push

a big package through of aid that is needed. I mean, let's not forget what's happened in Ukraine with the Russian missile strikes just in the last twenty four hours. The attacks on the energy sector have been dramatic and they've been debilitating. Reports are thirty percent of their electrical generating capacity is now down. If this keeps up, whereas Russia has been losing on the front lines, they can pressure the Ukrainian government, the people, they will need more support

from the United States. And who is leading this charge. We hear it from people like Tucker Carlson, We hear it from people like Seapack, and then you have J. D. Vance, Blake Masters, and others running for the Senate. So this is going to be a growing chorus of Republicans. And to Rick's point, this is a far cry from where

the traditional Republican Party was. And if they go in this America's first direction, it is going to be seeding to the Democrats the upper hand on foreign policy, and more importantly, it is going to leave the entire Ukrainian population vulnerable to Russia. Was that America First or America alone? As Senator Warner said Rick, Yeah, I think it becomes America alone because our European allies are totally committed to this,

and they're gonna feel the pinch by their own decisions. Right, They're gonna have a very cold winder based on their willingness to support Ukraine, and they're gonna if we leave them out to dry come November. Um, you know we're gonna We're not just upsetting Ukraine, We're upsetting the the Western alliance and it could mean a lot more in the future than just Ukraine. Well, the timing is something

here as this. You know, this group United which is raising money on behalf of the Ukrainian government, UH is making a great case for anybody, not governments, but civilians to contribute to the cause. Here President Zelenski went to talk to Wall Street if you remember, not that long ago, virtually of course, to ask for help in in providing money not just for the war effort, but rebuilding Ukraine. My god, Jeanie. Luke Skywalker is even on board this thing.

Mark Hamill is now the ambassador, one of several celebrity ambassadors, I believe he was the ambassador of drones or some things, signing on to United to make the case could this become a private fundraising enterprise? It could? And who can say no to Luke Skywalker? Marx all love him. Um, you know it could. But you know, certainly you do need the support of the NATO, you need the support of our allies, You need the support of the United States government as much as the private sector can do,

and that is very important. The public sector has got a step in. And here's where I think the Biden administration has to explain where the sixty billion went and why it's important. You can't just send it and not talk about it. All comes down to the receipts. Rick and Janie are with us for the hour. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington as we turn to fight night in Ohio. Jack Fitzpatrick will join us from Halima. Following last night's Senate debate, It's next. I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg.

The second round between Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan and j D Vance covered a lot of ground last night in Ohio. Youngstown was the scene. They talked inflation, they talked abortion, they talked crime and the border. But the debate also at times devolved into a brawl. You were calling Trump America's hitler. Then he kissed his ass, it is true. And then you kissed his ass, and then he endorsed you, and you said he's the greatest president of all time.

Mitch McConnell gave you forty million dollars to prop up your campaign. Peter Tell gave you fifteen million dollars. That's fifty five million dollars. J D. What do you think they want for that they want your loyalty and you proved that you'll kiss their ass too. We've heard that line before. He brought it around again. J d Vance, of course, reminding us that Tim Ryan said these things about the speaker, Nancy Pelos. I I know the President very well, and absolutely he was joking about a New

York Times story. That's all he was doing. I didn't take offense to it. I talked to the President before it. I talked to the President a to words. Everybody there took it as a joke. This guy goes on National TV and says, I love Nancy Pelosi, has the audacity of accusing me of kissing anyone's rear end. It's pretty

rich that that was the nice part. Once things got to replacement theory and some of the more extreme issues out there, if I can call them, that, the moderators had their work cut out for him, much like Bloomberg Government Congress reporter Jack Fitzpatrick, our friend here at Bloomberg sound On, who is in Ohio and actually talked to Tim Ryan a little while ago. Today he's in Lima, and Jack, I assume that's because both candidates hit the trail after their debate what are they up to today. Yeah,

they've they've been on the trail. Tim Ryan came to Lima to talk to local Democrats at the local chapter of the vf w UH, talked about the debate, kind of did that spin room, you know, rehashed some of his greatest hits from it. J. D. Vance is on the trail. I've got some events for him tomorrow, so we'll follow with him on some of the key issues. But I can certainly tell you right now the big message from Ryan is especially speaking to Democrats, tying J. D.

Vance to National Republicans. Ted Cruz is coming to town UH sometime in the next week for an event with him going over those Trump lines, basically saying that that he Ryan is the real Ohio and and Vance, you know, left and went to San Francisco and came back. That's a pretty cree message that he's pushing when he's talking to Democrats, especially, Yeah, tying him to extremists. He spent quite a bit of time, Tim Ryan spent quite a bit of time doing this last night with J. D.

Vance and not just Donald Trump. Marjorie Tayler Green's your point, Ted Cruz, here's a taste I think it is grounded in some of the most racial divisive, racially divisive writings in the history of the worship. Not here by the way that Tim Ryan, I want to be fair, was asked about replacement theory because this has been coming up on the campaign trail with with some Republican candidates. That's been around frankly going back to uh the Trump administration.

Here's Tim Ryan answering that I think it is grounded in some of the most racial divisive, racially divisive writings in the history of the world. And this is who he's running around with talking about replacement theory. There's no big, grand conspiracy. This is the country has been enriched by immigrants from all quarters of the world, and there's no in the problem. Shameful for danger that family dange. Shameful for you to accuse my turn, power, my turn, Oh buddy,

my turn. What you said, I'm here, I'm your guy. Okay, Well, here's the thing. J. D. Vance had quite a reply ready for that. Jack. Here's what he said. That's exactly what happens when the media and people like Tim Ryan accused me of engaging the great great replacement theory. Also

battling it. I'll exactly what happens to Tim. What happens is that my own children, my biracial children, get attacked by scumbags online and in person because you are so desperate for political power that you'll accuse me, the father of three beautiful biracial babies, of engaging in racism. We are sick of it. You can believe in a border without being a racist, you can believe in the country without being a racist. Well, it's a lot there, Jack. Did j d Vance shut down that line of attack

from Tim Ryan or did it continue today? Uh? You know, the part about the great replacement theory did not continue in today's event with Tim Ryan. I would say, though it would be hard to say he absolutely shut it down. There was a scrum with reporters at each candidate did after the debate yesterday on Some local reporters were pressing Vans on that. Uh. It is an issue and sort of the tangentially related issue that Ryan tried to tie Vance to Alex Jones. Vans has spoken supportively of him, uh,

including on his legal issues. Uh. And and so you know, there's kind of a near of issues uh, surrounding that racially charged exchange that you heard that covered a variety of issues. I would not say it's something Vance has just put down. Uh, it's not something Ryan just brought up with a number of Democrats. But it does seem to be a significant attack from Ryan on Vance. Something you would only know there, of course, if you were on the ground. I'm looking at the poll of polls,

you're the average from Real Clear Politics. Jack, they got Vance up by two points. This race is too close to call, right, that's how you describe it. Yeah, it's a very very close race. Um, you know, this state is a state with a lot of Republicans. It seems to be an emerging Republican advantage. If you anticipate that people break at the end towards their party, you could probably see an advantage for Vance. But you look at

the polling, you talked to voters around here. It's a very very competitive race, and there's maybe some head scratching as to why national Democrats haven't gone in to help. Uh, Tim, Ryan Moore, isn't that right? Although Joe Biden would not be I'm assuming considered a big help in Ohio this

time around. Jack, No, probably not, but money might be money from National Democratic groups to get on TV would probably be the big help, although I will say we we asked him Ryan about that too, and he is perfectly happy to say, I don't need Chuck Schumer's help. I don't need the National Democrats money. He's he's trying to make the case that he is independent of them. So while their money would have been helpful, Uh, he's not complaining openly about the lack of support. Well, we

sent the right guy to Ohio. Great to have you, Jack, and thank you. Jack Fitzpatrick reporting for Bloomberg Government. Of course he covers Congress and this is right in his wheelhouse. I'll bring it back to the ninth of October. Marjorie Taylor Green speaking at a Trump rally in Arizona. The stuff does not come out of thin air. Joe Biden's five million illegal aliens are on the verge of replacing you, replacing your jobs, and replacing your kids in school, and

coming from all over the world. They're also replacing your culture, and that's not great for America. Will reassemble the panel next their take on the debate. Last night, j d versus Tim Ryan, Rick Davis and Jeanie Chanzano are up next our signature panel and we'll check traffic and markets for you on the way. Thanks for being with us. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. As we follow the money all the way to Ohio or not as the case,

maybe Jack points out something important. While the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee has reserved about one and a half billion dollars in ads for the general election on behalf of Jim Ryan, the Democrat the Senate Leadership Fund, this is the one you've heard Rick Davis talk about a line with Mitch McConnell has reserved thirty million to boost j d vans make America Great against superpack run by allies of Donald Trump, reserving another one point four million, and

you've got Peter Cheel on top of it. Maybe that's why everybody is so upset stressed out in this race. The GOP was favored to hold this seat in Ohio, the seat of retiring Republican Senator Rob Portman. But it's too close to call right now, and boy, they were feeling it as you heard last night. Danger shameful for you to accuse my turn, pal, turn turn? What you said? I'm here, I'm your guy. I'm your guy. Right, Come on, buddy, how about you? Pal? Rick Davis has been through that

ringer before. G. D. Chanzano. I like to think you've not been subjected to such brawling, but they do make up our signature panel Bloomberg Politics contributors. That was a real debate, Rick, did it move the needle? You know, I think it got everybody's attention, but I'm not sure there was any kind of really um decisive blows landed. Uh. You know, it was really incumbent upon uh, Tim Ryan to sort of, you know, show that he could try to land a hard punch on Ja d Vance. And

it was a rough debate, no doubt about it. It's right up there with the you know, blood and guts debates I've seen. But the reality is that there was no hard punch landed. And uh, he needs to change this dynamic because it's settling into a you know, sort of comfortably small lead by J. D Vance And and that's not good for Advance. Shutdown that replacement theory attack line because we've been hearing that quite a bit. Last couple of weeks. Could that survive into the the final

weeks of the campaign? Rick, Yeah, I think invoking his daughters was a great way to parry out of that. Obviously, it doesn't even want to talk about it. And and most people, I mean, look, we we don't see that really banging around the top of the pole charts, right, I mean, like you know, and and and and and voters don't like it when you start saying somebody's a racist, right, I mean they're like, yeah, let's talk about inflation or

you know, gas prices or even abortion. But like you know, the the voters that I have pulled in the past, you know, thirty years, you start throwing around terms like racists and and you're they're turning the dial. His wife is a daughter of Indian immigrants at Jennie, and of course he's already referred to his as he refers to them three beautiful by racial babies. Was that Was that a tough moment for Tim Ryan to go there? You know,

it was tough. I don't think it was dumb, No, I mean, I think it's part of what Tim Ryan has tried to show the people of Ohio, which is that he believes and for good reason in many cases that JD. Vance is somebody who has been playing with fire. He has been on Tucker Carlson Show many times. He has in you know, in Tim Ryan's view, stoked racial violence is what he said, and this is something that voters need to know. And you know, the race here is what real clear politics has it at plus two

for Vance. That's well within the margin, much better than Democrats could ever have hoped to do. Tim Ryan has been I think one of the most impressive Democrats on the trail this you know, this cycle, and he is keeping the fire going out there despite the fact he is well underfunded because Democrats have not been willing to support him out there. So he says this is a

David versus Goliath fight, and it truly is. He's got a real shot there and if he pulls it out, it would be stunning, but it's still an uphill battle. If I asked you Rick, you know, six months ago, whatever, the beginning of the year, if if you thought that Dems could flip Rob Portman's seat, what would you have said? I would have said unlikely, considering the trends that Ohio has been on and how popular Rob Portman was, and frankly, how popular Mike Dwine. If Mike Dwine is going to

cruise into a fifty four victory. And so when you have someone like that at the top of the ticket and you're trying to overturn the second slot, it's awful tough. And and I would say that, you know, J d Vance was probably one of the weaker candidates we could have put up for this job. So the reality is, as Mitch McConnell said, if we put up strong candidates, we wouldn't even be talking about Ohio. Well, I want to bring it to Utah, which was the other more

one of the more rambunctious debates of the night. Uh Evan McMullin. We talked about him yesterday, the Independence, who of course ran for president against Donald Trump. In his his friend Mike Lee voted for him for president. Now Senator Mike Lee is trying to defend this seat against Evan McMullin, and boy, they both showed up for it

last night. Here's McMullin the Independent. I think both you and I have have had times of frustration over the last several years in the options being provided to us at the presidential level by both parties. As you recall, you voted for me out of that frustration when you stood on principle as you showed have it's not a

bad line, Genie. It wasn't a bad line. And it was a fascinating debate, in part because it was one of the few where this issue of January six really took you know, an enormous amount of attention and time and was d plea personal and they both talked about it.

And boy, McMullen has the benefit of being an independent because as much as Lee would hope to have a Democrat that he could, you know, pretend he's running against Joe Biden, he was able to do that a little, but he wasn't able to do it as much as he could with a Democrat. And that's the benefit McMullan

has of being a true independent. Well, let's go there, Evan McMullen going after Senator Mike Lee on the idea of providing or at least supporting this idea of fake slates of electors, not to mention referring Sydney Powell and John Eastman to the White House. You sought to urge the White House that had lost an election to find

fake electors to overturn the will of the people. Senator Lee, that was the most egregious betrayal of our nation's constitution in its history by a u s Senator, I believe, and it will be your legacy. Pretty tough stuff here, now. Remember there was an issue of props at debates in the last week. No badges were flashed last night, but you better believe. Senator Mike Lee had his pocket Constitution. I followed it, I studied it, and I defended it to seconds here, and I'm leaving it in the area

for you to suggest otherwise. Looks right in the face of truth and in the face of the Constitution. And how dare you, sir, Mr McMullan, you have thirty seconds for book. Senator Lee has been doing this thing with his pocket Constitution for the last several years. Senator Lee, it is not a prop. It is not a prop

that some applause for that one. Uh Rick is senatorly in trouble here, And and what did you make of the body language he was coming out from behind the podium sort of almost trying to to physically impose himself a bit on McMullan did it work? Yeah, I don't think so. I think that the physicality thing, you know, maybe barred it from Trump, who loved to stock the stage. Um, I don't think really played it well. And he was kind of hunched over and frankly looked a little uncomfortable

when he was doing it. Uh. I really was impressed with Evan McMullen's debate style, right, I mean, this is a guy he's been around politics while, but this is a big state for him to be on and and he really played out his messaging and his genie said, it's one of the very few campaigns in America today where one of the key closing issues is the conduct of Mike Lee during January six and uh insurrection. So uh,

he made that stick a bit. And I think Mike Lee sort of leaned right into it by whipping out the Constitution and giving him another opportunity to talk about it. So I'm still scratching my head. I mean, you know, this is you're running against the guy who's really not a Democrat, Evan McMullen. Uh, He's he's running as an independent, which makes sense. There's no democrat, no race. Can that beat a sitting Republican senator. This should be a dropkick

for Mike Lee to be re elected. I mean, you know, there's really uh no noticeable opposition from a party point of view, and can an independent win in a state like this, I don't know. I mean the polls are tightening. They they're definitely within you know, marginal air a little bit more maybe, But wouldn't that be the story of

the night though if this happened. I think that certainly it really complicates the math for Mitch McConnell and getting a majority if one of his incumbents loses like this, right, And so certainly it's a big story of the night. And I think that maybe it's a message to the Republican Party that they've got more vulnerability on this issue at January six and the otherwise might of thought Genie I I all I could think of was Rick Lazio.

I know this was a long time ago, but remember when he went he why left his podium and went over to Hillary Clinton in that two thousand Senate race asking her to sign this campaign finance pledge. It backfired big time. Don't leave your podium, right, That's right, you know, and I remember it well I've talked to Rick Lazio about that. He explains it a lot differently than it came than it looked on TV as I was watching it.

Um and and yeah, you know, in part heard of that UM was the issue of gender, of course, which was played played big in that in that case. But to your point, you've got to be very careful about body language, don't leave your podium, don't look at your watch. You know, there's some rules that we know now. And of course you know, getting candidates to follow that, as Rick can tell is better than anybody else, is easier

said than done. And I think the interesting thing here to Rick's point, is that McMullen being a sort of first time not first time candidate, but really on a big stage here versus Mike Lee. It was an impressive showing he remained still behind. But if he could catch this, to your point, wow, that would be big news on election night. Sure would. And of course we'll be doing that together live, all of us here for you on Bloomberg Radio. I'll tell you guys got off easy again tonight.

You know why I haven't had a chance to ask you about Kanye and Parlor. You know where I'm not gonna let you get away with it all week though, as Elon must today tweets an image of him, Donald Trump and yes yea, apparently the trinity of social media. Rick and Jennie, Thanks as always. We'll get back here and do it again tomorrow, and we will get into this YEA story on the fastest hour in politics. I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg