Now from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound On. My reason to thank to this country is moving backwards. Freedom is being reduced. A little while ago, I spoke with President Biden, who pledged all support. The White House can provide the bipartisan gun bill address as many of the aspects of these mass shures. Floomberg Sound On Politics, Policy and Perspective from DC's top name. This is truly an historic moments for we're discussing this and working to
align these haphazard tariffs in our priorities. Sloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. President Biden prepares to cut Trump tariffs on China, but who will it help? Welcome to the fastest hour in politics, as we opened a short and trading week with some big decisions looming at the White House that we'll discuss them in a moment with Cleet Williams, one of President Trump's economic advisors when the tariffs were first put in place. Is Russia
winning the war in Ukraine? Will Ask retired at Air Force General David Deptula with new American weapons on the way to the Daun Boss and analysis today from our signature panel Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeannie Chanzano and Rick Davis back with us for the hour. President Biden said weeks ago he was thinking about cutting tariffs that Donald Trump put in place on China several years back, and he could be preparing to do so in the next couple
of days. According to Bloomberg News, White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre talked about it on the way back from Europe last week on Air Force One. Here she is, we're discussing this and working to align these haphazard tariffs and our priorities to safeguard the interest of our workers. Could get a decision again in the coming days, they say, knowing now. The Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen spoke over the
weekend with a vice premiere of China. It's getting to be a high level conversation, but unclear what round of tariffs might be cut, what impact is well it would have on prices here in the US, if any. So we wanted to talk with somebody who is in the room when these terrorists were conceived and implemented. Cleet Williams was Deputy Director of the National Economic Council in the Trump White House and served as Deputy Assistant to the
President for International Economics. He is now with the firm partner at Akin, gump Strauss, Howard and Feld and a nonresident Senior Fellow with the Atlantic Council's Geoeconomics Center. It's a long business card, cleet, Welcome, It's great to have you. Uh. You must be chuckling a little bit today as everyone becomes an expert suddenly on tariffs, which are incredibly complex.
But the fact is China has not really changed the behavior that led to them in the first place, and people a lot smarter than I am say it wouldn't have much of an impact. So I ask you, is it worth it? Is it worth bringing them down to try to get to inflation? Sure? And I think this is a little bit more of a complicated topic than
it's being made out in the press. And in many respects this is being painted is simply a question or do we want to get rid of tariffs to fight inflation versus do we want to maintain the status quo because China hasn't changed its behavior in the way that we ask and and look, my my personal view is
that that's really the wrong question. I think what the administration should do is take a step back, look at these tariffs holistically, figure out which ones are putting pressure on China, which ones are hurting China versus which ones are hurting our economy, and look at increasing tariffs on the ones that are that are harmful to China and get rid of the tariffs and the ones that are harmful to us. And that could be a more holistic
restructuring of this whole list. But I think, what, yeah, But what I think what the administration is looking at in the short term is much more modest than that, um and maybe they'll get to where I'm suggesting over time. But I think, you know, investors in the next couple of days really should only be looking at some sort of minor tariff relief for inflation, and then maybe a longer term process to do a little bit of what
I'm describing. So this is interesting that Dow Jones is reporting that, you know, the Biden deministration might choose to cut tariffs on some seasonal consumer items. I mean, they actually seemed pretty trivial sunscreen bicycles, uh, waiting pools, and I think I saw the Bloomberg story uh while hiking not just maintaining but hiking tariffs on things like heavy
machinery and transportation equipment. Are we getting warmer their cleap Well, look, I think that's more in the line that the administration should go. I will be a little bit surprised though, if they fully articulate that strategy in the next couple
of days. As as I understand it, I think you're going to get that short term tariff relief and then probably the start of a process to look at some of those tariffs increases, because they don't necessarily have the right legal tools right now to just simply increase tariffs
without going through a whole process. Yeah, I would look at this as a short term and a long term action, and hopef we will the long term they get in the direction you're discussing understood, Then comes the impact you Barclays calls it a drop in the bucket, three tenths
of a percentage point, maybe an inflation. The Peterson Institute quarter percentage point, maybe more, though they say a FUS companies that you know then cut their prices in response, which is a big gift of those numbers sound real to you, No, I think that's right, And what some of the reports have suggested is that the order of magnitude of these short term cuts is around ten billion dollars. And if that's true, you're talking about ten billion out
of three d and sixty odd billion and tearraffs. So it's a pretty small percentage. And I do think in terms of effecting overall CPI, inflation, in disease, it's unlikely to be significant. But I think what the Biden administration is gambling on is that on some very specific products, UH, people are gonna go to stores and see an immediate price reduction. And that's a big one. If I know, they're trying to get retailers to make those commitments, but
I'm not sure whether they've been successful. And I guess we'll see. You ask Katherine Tye and you get a different answer on all of this. The US Trade representative, you know, suggesting there is an argument inside the White House. Our reporting says Katherine Tye wants the tariffs to stay right where they are. She says, you take away the tariffs and you lose the leverage. It's kind of the only leverage we have over paiging. Have these helped in
retrospect as a diplomatic tool. So look, I think they were helpful as an initial matter. They did help yield the Phase one deal, which I will continue to defend as at least making some incremental progress in opening up China's market, But I think at this point in time they aren't having much effect. Now I don't I want
to be sympathetic to what Embassador Tie is saying. I get the idea that we don't want to just let China off the hook, and that's why I think you do need to look at other products in which we should actually increase tariffs. But at the same time, I would point out, you know, she she talks about leverage, but there isn't any real I'm going negotiation with China, So so leverage for what what is it she's she's
seeking leverage for? And so again I think if she wants to have active negotiations with China, that's a valid question. But if not, again my vote remains, let's look at these holistically, figure out which ones are hurting us, and let's change those and then maybe be more strategic about
where we put the pressure on China. You mentioned Phase one, the deal, the trade deal you signed with China, in as part of the Trump administration has never been fully realized because China never reached the purchasing goals that it agreed to. Should Joe Biden be taking a harder line on that side of our trade agreement? So I think it's important that the Biden administration do pressure China to
fully implement the agreement. But I would actually point out that China's record is a little bit more mixed than they get credit for because the purchases were only part of this. There were systemic changes, structural changes they agreed to make on intellectual property and on agriculture that they actually did did follow through on. So it's a it's a mixed bag rather than a total a total waste. But not what if they've done an intellectual property question?
What's that? What if they accomplished on intellectual property? That that gets your that gets your thumbs up. Well, they've passed the trade secrets law, they have made some moves to enforce, to create an enforcement rite in courts for various types of patent protection, and so you know, there's some some moves that they've made. How they achieve everything we set out to do? Are they still requiring force
technology transfer. Yeah, that's that's that's a problem. So it's not it's not a complete victory, but I think it's unfair to say that it achieved nothing. And I think the terro ups that we put in place in initially did contribute to some of those outcomes. Click Williams. He was there, and we thank you for your insights on an interesting day here in the world of politics, talking about China tariffs again and whether or not we're about
to get news. We do want to air this out and we assemble our panel, if only to hear the voices of Rick Davis and Jeannie Chanzano after a long weekend. Uh. Great to have both of you guys back, now that your ears have stopped ringing from fireworks all night. Rick, I wonder if you see some action here, something that would be worthwhile, or if we're gonna keep nibbling around the edges and and and calling this, you know, another
another swing at the inflation bowl. Well, you know, it's the reporting that I've got, and and that is the nibbling around the edge of strategy, which is incredible because you would think that this administration would get out of this defensive crouch related to anything Trump, and and and and make some changes. I mean it's almost like he's got Trump in his head renting space, you know, don't change any of my policies on immigration or on trade
with China. I mean, it's it's really phenomenal. Even some some ghosts of Russia putin are in there. So I think this administration needs to make a break. And I think again, follow a little bit of Larry Summer's advice, you know, drop these tariffs, reduce inflation, and get on with the economic business of our country. This be across the board, Genie, or as we were talking with Cleatney, in a little bit more of a of a scalpel approach, and try to figure out what actually might be putting
the squeeze on China and keeping it there. I think Clee is exactly right. I think it is going to be narrow. And here's why. Because you've got competing camps in the White House. You talked about some of those in the administration yelling versus tie. You've also got competing interest groups that have the president's ear business groups, the US Chamber, labor progressives. So he's hearing from a lot of these knowing Joe Biden the way he do we do.
He's not going to go big like Rick is talking about. He is going to take a narrow scout, you know, sort of strategic approach. He's going to try to cut tariffs. I bet in areas that he thinks can impact consumers. I've heard people talk about things like school supplies, clothing, food, things like that that hopefully impact. But the question, of course that you raised, is is it really going to be effective? Is it going to hit cost and help people?
And that's the big question. I think he's going to take a chance that might but he won't go big. You know they could do is pass this trying to competes legislation. Rick, that's got the chip AC. Now Mitch McConnell is threatening to withdraw Republican support, or at least his own support, if Democrats pursue a reconciliation package this year. I don't want to walk too far away from this tariff story, but that is one of the most tangible ways we could actually do something with China. And here
it is on the rocks again. Are you hearing this is going to pass anyway that there's enough support, Well, there's enough support for it. It's just a question of you know, whether or not you're using the Chip Act as a leverage item in Congress. But but this is really the point, Joe, is that are these these these tariffs aren't actually getting us anything from China. They're not even implementing almost the one. So where are we getting from these and what leverage are is Tai talking about?
The leverage we have is on chips and we need to pass that bill. Caught him all, Genie, or or take the narrow path you just mentioned. I think he should go big, but my guess is he goes strategically, will go narrow because he's facing a lot of competing pressures. We stick with the panel, Rick Davis and Jeannie Chanzano next, as we look back on the president's remarks on America's birthday. This is sound Off and this is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg.
So on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. We come fourth on the fifth, even though we were kept up all night by amateur fireworks. But hey, it's only once a year. I do hope you had a great Fourth of July. President Biden seemed to have a good time, a good holiday at the White House, the military, families on the lawn, special guests, the cookouts going yes, you
read on the terminal. Biden urges unity despite economic worries and deep divisions, celebrated at the cookout, noting the nation has made great strides, but also well, listen to the president the reason days there's been reason to think that this country's we're backward, that freedom is being reduced. We assume we're protected, are no longer America has taken a few steps backward. At the fourth of July picnic, we reassembled the panel with Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie Chantano and
Rick Davis. Is that the time to strike that that note here? And I know I've asked this before, but I mean, isn't that kind of his version of the Malay speech? Here? Jeannie, That's exactly what I thought when I listened to it. That and the fact that July four has not been kind to Joe Biden in the last couple of years. So last year he was declaring independence from COVID, that of course blew up several months
later in all of our faces. And this year, you know, comments like you know, he was shocked by the what happened in the horrific shooting in Chicago. But you know the fact is you listen to people on the ground and they're saying, you know, the president doesn't seem and most only invested in any of these issues, and he doesn't seem to have the sort of you know answer, He doesn't seem to have the sort of drive that people,
particularly on the left, want him to. And quite frankly, the emotion of somebody like the governor from Illinois who spoke out after the shooting. So there's a lot to be to be you know, sort of um, you know, reconsidered about the way in which this communications team is
getting him out there. It's really problematic, Rick, you spent a career of helping to prepare elected officials for speeches and and being in the moment reading the room, realizing he was talking about, you know, referring to the Supreme Court decisions last week. Uh, in recent days there was reason to think this country is moving backward? Is that's something that should that should ever come from a president? Never mind on the fourth of July. Well, I think
he's echoing every man. This is every man Joe Biden and I guess he forgot he's president United States and responsible for that movement. Um. You know, posters I've talked to you say we're in rare fight air. As of July four, holiday, over any percent of the American voting public are saying that the country's on the wrong track, and Joe Biden seems to agree with him. You know, I think that he should be the guy showing us the way forward, not um, you know, reacting to how
everyone thinks we're going backward. Well, so how about now we start a fight about the economy with one of the most successful entrepreneurs in American history, That, of course would be Jeff Bezos. You guys saw the tweets back and forth, uh that you know. The President was going after uh, the the oil and gas companies, saying, hey, how come prices haven't come down gas prices with the price of crude And he got an answer from Jeff Bezos, who called him out for not knowing very much about
the economy. Karine john Pierre, the Press secretary at the White House, was asked about this today coming off the weekend. Here's her answer. As you know, we we completely disagree with Jeff Bezos. Look we will continue to call on everyone along that distribution chain, as I just mentioned, from oil companies to refineries, to distribt distributors to to retailers
to pass their low lower cost through two consumers. That is what is important to make sure that we should not make again consumers pay first and get that room and get that relief. Last this after Jeff Bezos responded to a presidential tweet, again saying in part, it's either straight ahead misdirection or a deep misunderstanding of basic market dynamics. Is that a conversation you want to get into, Genie, Absolutely not. And you know, you look at this tweet
and the tweet ends with forwards. Anybody who has kids. No, you never say and do it now unless you can force the person to do it, and he can't. He's going after gas stations here. You know, it would be one thing if what Jeff Bezos was saying was, you know, sort of holly crazy. But this was a tweet that got attacked some sort of all sort of cycles. And you know, the thing is is that they have to be better about their message, and this tweet displays that
they are not. And that's the problem with it. Apart from anything Jeff Bezos had to say about it. So he's he's gone after gone at it with Elon Musk. Now Jeff Bezos, uh speaking of rarefied air. I mean he's keeping good company. I guess here, Rick, But how does this play politically? I can't wait for the Bill Gates tweet. I mean, like, is he just picking on the wealthiest people in the world? I mean, is that the new strategy? Honestly, I don't get it. Um what what?
What in the world does does Jeff Bezos have to do with gasoline prices? And in other words, like I get where he sits in the supply chain and how important he is as a you know, distributor of goods all around the world. But do you think there are any voters who are thinking about the November election going, Hey, that guy Bezos is the problem with gas prices? I mean, like, this is this is something that these guys in the White House have to get real on shore not have
replied to that reply. I think, why pick a fight with a guy who has a newspaper, he owns the Washington Bios, he buys ink by the barrel. You don't pick fights with people like that. Is he's onto something there. I'm assuming they are prime members though, yeah, you bet they are. They have to do something over the weekend like the rest of us. Um. You know. But but but again, you know, I think this is broader than the President. I think it has to do with this
communications team at the White House. They've had a really, really tough time and we're hearing it on abortion, We're hearing it on guns from the left, and they are frustrated that the President can't get out and say this is what I'm going to do to address these crazies in the country. Rick and Jennie stay with us for the hour. Up next is Russia winning the war in Ukraine. We'll talk about it with retired Air Force General David Deptula on the fastest hour in politics. It's great to
have you back with us. We'll check traffic and markets for you on the way. I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg broadcasting live from our nation's capital. Bloomberg to New York, Bloomberg eleven trio to Boston, Bloomberg one oh six one to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine sixty to the Country. Serious x M General one ninety and around the globe of Bloomberg Business app then Bloomberg Radio dot Com. This is
Bloomberg sond On with Joe Matthew. Russia tightens its grip on the Don Boss, leading some military analysts to suggest the tide has turned for Russia and ask whether the US is being realistic about its goals. We'll have the latest on the war and discuss it all with retired Air Force General David Depp. To look, Turkey is still causing some trouble inside the family when it comes to NATO admitting Finland in Sweden. This seemed over for a
minute when President Biden met with Urdwan. Now not so much, as Turkey renews its threat to block the expansion if these two countries do not extradite people that considers terror. Turkey today though still joined allies and signing off on plans to get the ball rolling on bringing the two into the Alliance, just simply maintaining the threat. Here's NATO Secretary General again Stoltenberg. Today we will formally sign the
protocols of accession. This marks the start of the gratification courses. So from here, the parliaments of each of the thirty NATO nations must then ratify the expansion. So this is going to take a minute. This is could be a few months even before Sweden and Finland are in the fold, as long as Turkey doesn't have a problem. So what
shape will Ukraine be in by then? I ask you that as the front page of the fourth of July Washington Post with the headline more military advisers suggesting the U S maybe too optimistic about the outcome of this war. And we're joined now by a reliable voice, retired Air Force General David Deptula, dean of the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies. General, it's great to have you back. I'll start simply by asking you, is Russia winning this war? Well,
thanks for having me on, Joe. UM, I'd say no, Russia is not winning winning the war yet. UM. It is still very much contested UH conflict, with the Ukrainians doing their best to hold on. But as you suggested, as you mentioned, the Russians have an enormous stockpile of weapons and ammunition UH, and Ukraine has made it clear that Western nations need to come to their assistance if they're going to be able to hold out against the Russians. I still think that, Um, the issue is yet to
be decided and it will take some time. UM, but you know, we we've got to stop procrastinating. When I say we, I mean the collective Western nations that are in support of the principles of Ukraine and send them weapons that matter. UM. So we've been sending a lot more recently, as as I'm sure you've seen in reporting the high mobility artillery rocket systems. I think I think
you call them the him our systems. We just gave them, or at least approved, whether they're on the ground yet and being used, uh more advanced longer range ground to air missile defense systems. What are we not giving them then? In general? Well, well the point in thanks for bringing that up, um, High Mars uh is a excellent medium range rocket system, but we've only given them eight in that new air defense system you mentioned, we've only given them too now in we just supply them, you know,
with about a week's worth of artillery ammunition. So is it more high Mars or stuff they don't have yet, No, it's stuff they don't have yet. What Ukraine has stated and the President has made is very clear as they need air power. They've stated the need for F sixteens and F fifteens to replace their Soviet Air Air Force as their legacy air force is becoming non viable. Um and I can speak to that, but I want to
pack up too much time. But the obstacles to supplying the capabilities that they actually need that can make a difference to the Russian um A really centered in the National Security Council and the current administration policy of appeasing Russia to the extent permitted by current politics. So how do you get him F sixteens if we couldn't get a dozen bigs in there at the beginning of this war, Well,
that's part of the issue. Unfortunately, since Russia invaded Ukraine, Putin's rhetoric has done more to deter action by the United States and NATO to assist Ukraine than the US and NATO has onto the turb Putin and you just mentioned one of the prime examples. Those May twenty nine should have been gotten to Ukraine early on. Uh and then there's been the reluctance to send advanced unman aial vehicles or drones the MP on m Q nine the Ukraine.
So then cheddyal, you understand why people are asking is it too late here? As as Russia advances to to finish its job, things are looking pretty red all the way down to the eastern borderline. Well, that's true. However, the Ukrainians have done a magnificent job in halting and then reversing their initial assault. Um. The Russians have been dug in in the eastern portion of Ukraine and been fighting for eight years, so it's not surprising that they've
restrengthened their initiative there. But I think you'll see the Ukrainians do a good job in halting them in that location. It's not too late, but we need to send the Ukrainians weapons that matter, not just something minimal to get by to say that we've done something. If we don't give them fighter jets, can they win the war? No, because you don't have air superiority, you're gonna lose. Your
superiority is contested. Um, But they're their Their current air forces have been reduced due to attrition losses UH in constant use. So unless Ukraine acquires replacement fighter force of Western origin, they're gonna lose the ability to defend their
airspace and support its ground forces. And we both seem to understand each other that that's not likely to happen, right, Well, I don't know if the If the administration doesn't do it, um, then it may take Congress um to legislate the necessity to provide this equipment necessary to Ukraine's survival in the
face of Russians aggression. How based on your experience in Washington, General, in our in our remaining minute here, when do you start hearing the uproar about war fatigue and concern about rebuilding our own war chest after we've given them, frankly, quite a lot of stuff. So you know, I gotta tell you, Joe, I think you're already hearing it, um, And it is not rebuilding the war chest, is that
we have neglected our war chest for thirty years. We're half the size that we were when we won Desert Store. We have to buy a lot of stuff. Yeah, if we're half the size then and we've neglected our own military for years and years, we don't have the numbers of weapons required, or the systems or the type to fight the Chinese and men in the South China seats. And that's a whole other conversation that I'd love to have you back for General David Deptula with some strong
opinions about this. We want to play it to the panel next. Rick and Genie will be with us on Bloomberg Sound On. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. This is Bloomberg So On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. General David dep Tila just told us Ukraine cannot win the war against Russia without new fighter jets. It sounds like not just a few of them, based on everything we've heard from the administration, this White House not getting any new fighter jets. Let's reassemble the panel for more on this.
Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis and Genie Chancey know, Rick, I think you supported given them the MiGs, you know, six months ago or five months ago, whatever it was at this point. But there there does seem to be a growing concern that the tide is turning in Russia's favor, that this will not be over anytime soon, and it may actually not end in Ukraine's favor. Do you see this as stark as the general and that if they
don't get a new air force basically they can't win. Look, I think obviously we're in a very critical time where Russia is starting to make gains after repeated failures on the field of play. But at the end of the day, I think the point you make is we're probably in it for a long haul. That Russia isn't going to
sue for peace. Ukraine wants its territory back and wants the AMMO and and equipment to do that, and and it's really up to the policy makers in Washington and Europe to determine whether they're going to give them that. And we can cry over spilt milk. We should have armed Ukraine long before Putin went across the border, but you know we were, oh, we don't want to provoke Putin. Well, the lesson we should learn is we should do what's in our interests and that in the world's interest for
peace and stability, and not worry about Vladimir Putin. And by the way, the next lesson to learn is in Taiwan, are we upgunning Taiwan now? Because the same lesson, oh, we don't want to provoke g Well, what is the lesson we just learned? In the Ukraine needs president but I need to rethink. The Jets had a pretty hard line on this idea when it first came up, but it's been five months. If he's listening to the general,
he does need to rethink this. And you know, I heard the General say, you know, to your point there, they can't win the war without the jets and without the air power, and if the administration doesn't do it, we're gonna wait for Congress. Well you know you might as well just yeah, I mean, that's you know, that's not going to happen. So the Biden administration is going to have to rethink this. But I think the problem
here is is that they are sort of trapped. They don't want to commit to this war and the way they need to so Ukraine can win by the end of the year or you know, in the near future. The United States the West doesn't want to commit that much, and so we don't want to commit. We're doing this, you know, in a sort of with a hands off approach with these big investments, and in this way, we are really playing into Putin's hands. Because you play the
long game on these things. There is going to be a point at which Americans are going to say enough is enough, and we will have to, you know, stop the investment. So the Biden administration has to think long and hard how does this thing end? And if Russia is going to be beat, an investment is going to have to happen, and it's going to have to be big. All the while, Brittany Griner is sending letters to the president. Rick,
you've probably heard about this by now. The w NBA player who has been in jail, has been jailed in Russia now for months, told Joe Biden in the letter that she is terrified I might be here forever. Was the quote, according to the Associated Press. Uh. This was delivered to the White House by a representative. The Press Secretary today said the President read it in her presence. Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor, talked about this recently.
Here's what he said about the engagement the administration has. We are actively working to find a resolution to this case and will continue to do so without rest until we get Britney safely home. Rick, how do you solve this right now? And what leverage, if any, does the United States have as Russia conducts this proxy war for Ukraine. Yeah, it's tough, right because we can't really add sanctions to sanctions, because if we could add more sanctions, we would anyway.
Um uh, you know there the solutions that seem to make sense in this kind of a problem are prisoner swaps. Right, You're not negotiating for a release of Brittany Grinder, You're you're just making a trade. And and there are trades going on every single day on the on the on the front between Ukraine and Russian soldiers and prisoners of war. And so you would hope that that that that something like that could be expedited in this process as quickly
as possible. Every day matters to somebody like Brittany, and and frankly, this administration's ability to look strong in in the of this it's been getting noisy lately, especially now today with the letter today in the yesterday Jeannie, but we're talking about a two time Olympic gold medalist, Uh, could be in Russia in jail for a decade, accused of of carrying cannabis oil vape cartridges into the country.
Are you surprised this hasn't gotten more coverage? How how come this hasn't been discussed more openly by the White House? You know, I think early on the family, we understand was told, you know, not to make it an issue in the press, that they should try to go through back channels with the administration. They clearly have grown tired of that and they have gone public. But let's think about this. There's a nine conviction rate in Russia. She
will be convicted. She will be convicted, and she will be sentenced to ten years and her probably best bet, to Rick's point, is some kind of prisoner swap. Now, the administration was able to do this successfully in April, in the midst of the war with Trevor Reid, so they may be able to do it. But she's got a long road if you look at that trajectory, because she's going to have to be convicted and then they're going to have to do some kind of prisoner swap
if they are willing to do it. So, you know, it is a devastating, devastating issue. She's a hostage, not a prisoner. But it's not That's what I wanted to ask if this, if we're talking about a prisoner swap, Rick, is Britney Grinder a hostage? Well, I think you can assume that the Russians are treating her as a prisoner. But I think the way we look at it is she's a hostage and and and and in semantics are
only important to get something done here, right. Uh it's if if if she's a prisoner by Russian standards, and we do a prisoner swap, then then for the purposes of getting her out of there, you know that that's the decision. But what if she actually stays stuff with her? It almost is irrelevant at this stage, right, I mean, like anybody who we have cooling their heels, you know, from Russia in our prison system, or people who we
have um detained around the world. Uh, we're not gonna We're not going to spend the time thinking guilt or innocence if we want to be able to get her out of the happen it was one of us, um, I would hope. So if I'm asking genuinely if this might go, We've got a two time gold medal medal winner, and and it's taking months for this to get on the front page. Genie, Yeah, you know, I think if
it was you were Rick, you'd be out. I think I may be there like Britney Grener, but you know, yeah, I do think we should discuss Yeah, I do think we should. We should call her a hostage, you know. And I think the frustration with many of these families, whether they're in prison or hostages. The United States has a policy of not negotiating with terrorists and not negotiating for hostage release, and yet we will do it with Russia.
And that is a point of real frustration. Goes well beyond the Biden administration to u S policy more broadly for many, many decades, which has long been questioned. Well, the administration says she has been wrongfully detained. You'll know something's going on if they refer her as a hostage, certainly, or a political prisoner. Uh. This is the New York Times rights over the weekend that it's time to or at least some orchestras are rethinking the use of the
eighteen twelve overture. Of course, a right, as they say, of July fourth celebrations. Of course, this is Tchaikovsky's overture, written as a commemoration of Russia's defeat of Napoleon's army. So how exactly it became associated with the fourth of July has a lot of people wondering. You know what we're talking about, right, Let's let's do it right here
from the Esquimator. Yes, the great moment every year. The Boston Pops made this what it is today, and the great David Mugar, who suggested then to Arthur Feedler, the conductor, that if you want to get people to turn out for this thing, play the eighteen twelve and I'll bring it. A bunch of howitzer cannons will play, church bells will have the full smash, as Fiedler said, so all hell could break loose. And indeed this has become copied all over, duplicated,
a nicer word all over the country. Every year on the fourth of July. Wouldn't be America's birthday without it until Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine and some orchestras actually decided to drop it from the routine on this fourth of July Boston, as you saw last night in Bloomberg's coverage, was not one of them, but many ensembles, concerned about the overtures history as a celebration of the Russian military, reconsidered the work because of the war in Ukraine. Have
we lost it here? Rick? Yeah, wokeness at a new level. I mean that we're blaming Tchaikovsky on put Putin on Tchaikovsky or whatever. I mean, I'm losing track. You know, when do we Bann Wagner because he was around the time of the Nazis. I mean, enough of this. I have to admit it made me think of the Smirnov story. A genie. Everybody started the boycott smearing off vodka after the invasion, not realizing that it's actually not made in Russia. Yeah,
that's right. And Joe, I hope you weren't amongst them. I hope you kept with your smearing off the bars fully stocked. And you know, I have to say, I am a trombone player. You don't know this about me, probably, but I am an old, very bad trombone player, and I have played the overture of eighteen twelve, So I just cannot go along with any boycott. I love eighteen twelve. It must be played. Fiedler was right, and I was so glad that the Boston Pops did it. Yeah, well,
I guess I was too. And boy, it was just incredible to watch it on Bloomberg. Everybody had gosh, I there have been years I've been lucky enough to be there. It looked great, everyone was back for the first time since COVID. And then I read that the eighteen twelve is a problem, the latest, as the paper of Record in New York says, the latest example of the difficult questions facing cultural institutions since the war began. This one maybe a tune to fall Are. It's great to be
back with everybody's Rick and Genie. Of course our signature panel here on Bloomberg Sound on, and we'll do it all over again tomorrow here on the fastest hour in politics. If you showed up late, subscribe to the podcast. Be part of this movement wherever you get your podcasts. Back here tomorrow on sound On. I'm Joe Matthew in the Nation's capital, and this is Bloomberg.