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Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Bloomberg Sound On. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington, where there are a couple of us left. Sixty one senators showed up for votes last night, seventeen of them Republicans. We're done here appears to be the signal. John Thune, talking with Bloomberg not gonna happen, he says about a deal potentially on the border that kept everybody here over time. The quote he gave to CNN no way on a Ukraine border deal, even a
cloture vote apparently happening this week. The Democrat at the negotiating table, Chris Murphy, still somewhat optimistic, bringing us up to date on this seemingly endless saga.
I know it's maddening to hear us say we continue to make progress without a product. That is in part because of how difficult this set of law is, and even when you have an agreement in principle, writing it and coming to an agreement on the writing is hard.
There is that matter of writing the legislation, but we can't even get to a deal. And Mitch McConnell says, you know, it's going to take a while to read this thing when you guys get done. So we're looking at next year.
Here's the Minority leader, Republicans will not make up or others showing up late to the table, a boy waiving our responsibility to careful and negotiate and review any agreement before voting on it.
With the headline on the terminal Senate Republican shut door on quick Ukraine aid border deal. And that's where we begin our conversation with Congressman Ami Bera, the Democrat from California six back with us here on Bloomberg's sound on in. Congressman, it's good to see you. I'm glad you're with us. I wonder from what you're hearing as a member of the House through the grapevine, this is all over right.
There's no eleventh hour Christmas miracle kind of a deal that's going to emerge this week on the border.
You know, Joe, thanks for having me on. I think it's unlikely that there's anything before.
The end of the year.
But you know, we just heard Senator Murphy from Connecticut you talk about it. I do think there is progress, and I think we're we should have a deal that first week of January that when we get.
Back well, that's my gosh, very optimistic, knowing that Congressman has not just been this battle. This has been a debate for the better part of thirty years on Capitol Hill, and it's been walked up to the line more than once, and it never became law. What is different this time is that the urgency behind Ukraine that brings Democrats to the table in a way that did not before.
Yeah, I think it's the urgency to continue to support our friends in Ukraine and their battle against Vladimir Putin. I think certainly the Israeli support is important as well. In addition, I think it's important for us to get humanitarian aid to Gaza in the Middle East and certainly to Ukraine. But the crisis on the border is very real, and I think, you know, many Democrats understand that we have to do something to strengthen our border security. You
get through the backlog and asylent cases, et cetera. And I think the one big difference is, you know, the President and his team is at the negotiating table right now, and I think that's going to be helpful.
Do you have a sense not being in the room. I realize John Thune's not in the room either, But to the extent that you're hearing about this what the sticking points are because you do have a Democrat in Chris Murphy at the table. Kirsten Cinema now an independent former Democrat, though good at making deals, is at that table, and James Langford appears to be a credible negotiator. With the White House now involved, Where does this come down to? Is it defining asylum law or is it more granular?
You know, I think it's a little bit of everything.
So on the House side, I hear my Republican colleagues really saying you've got to take HR two, which is that our House immigration build. That would be a non starter for most Democrats, if not all Democrats, But there are elements in an HR tw that you probably could take. That'll mean you'll lose some of the Freedom Caucus folks, some of the far right on our side, you know, we will have to make some changes to the asylum
laws and so forth. That'll, you know, lose some of our most progressive members, perhaps some of the members in the CHC the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, which requires moderate Democrats and Republicans to come together and put a deal together. And I think that's where the sticking point is. I think it is helpful that the President is kind of laying out how he sees the border, and I think
he recognizes that it is a real issue. And you're seeing big city mayors who are also grappling with a lot of these asylum seekers who are going to Chicago, New York, et cetera. We've even had some come here to Sacramento, and you know, trying to figure out, Okay, how do we manage this.
Well, this all, of course means a longer wait for Israel and Ukraine, for that matter, Taiwan the supplemental funding request that would be tied to a border deal. Congressman, you're hearing a lot more than most As a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, as I mentioned the Intelligence committees, how worried are you about Ukraine as we go into this new year, not knowing when funding will resume.
You know, I think it weekends our standing in the world that we didn't get the Supplemental done. That said, the fact that we did get the Defense Authorization Bill out of the House and Senate and the President should sign it this week. That does have funding both for Ukraine, you know, there's ways to continue to support Israel. It also does have funding for Taiwan and a pretty large amount in there to help make sure our friends in
Taiwan can continue to defend themselves. That said, we don't have a lot of time, and you know, I hope one of the first things that we do when we get back in January is take up the Supplemental Bill with Ukraine funding, with Israel funding, what's your panetarium aid, with Indo Pacific funding, and with border security and get that done. So I'm confident that folks in the Senate
are going to continue working through the holiday. We're ready to weigh in on the House side as we need to, and then hopefully as soon as we get back, we have that ready to go.
Spending time with Congressman Ami Berra here on Bloomberg's sound On, I have to ask you about the hot war underway between Israel and Hamas at the same time realizing this is less of a money issue or a funding issue, and it's become a very very divisive political issue for Democrats for this administration supporting Israel and what some see a disproportionate response to what happened on October seventh. We talked about this a couple of months ago, Congressman, and
I wonder where you are now. We have a new poll out today from the New York Times in Siena, and it's showing problems consistent with other polls for Joe Biden, particularly among young people eighteen to twenty nine year olds, disapprove the way that the president is handling this conflict. Where are you right now?
Yeah, So, obviously the acts that take place on October seventh were Hanus and what Hamas did. Israel will prosecute a war against Hamas. But all the video imagery of innocent civilian lives, the humanitarian crisis that's unfolding Gaza is also taking a toll. And I think a lot of young people are seeing these images on TikTok, on Instagram, etc.
And it is.
Making them question what we're doing in Israel. That said, it is really complicated. We'll stand by our allies in Israel, but as friends.
Sometimes have to do.
And I think you're seeing the President of Jake Sullivan and others, you know, really messaging to the Israel's.
That it's time to start wrapping up this phase of the war.
They'll continue to prosecute a campaign against the mospait, let's do it in a more precise way using special operators, et cetera. And let's shift now to saving innocent kids, innocent older folks. You know, there's a humanitarian crisis unfolding. Lack of food, lack of clean water. My staff was talking to the doctors without borders. They don't have antibiotics, and so many people are dying just of secondary infections. And that's not war. That's entirely preventable. Let's save those lives.
There's an important headline I was just reading on the terminal here the President of Israel as a Kursaw telling ambassadors from around the world that they are prepared to agree to a second pause, a second truce if it means the return of more hostages held by Hamas. Is that a real, realistic overture at this point, I know the CIA director is back. Abroady is in Warsaw right now working on a potential truce. Will that happen potentially over the holiday here?
I certainly hope so.
I mean that would be important to get the hostages back and then as part of that truce to get needed food, antibiotics, medications, fuel to run the remaining hospitals that you know, I don't think there's that much left clean water. I mean, these are you know, folks are going to die of starvation, die of diarrhea, et cetera. And those are vives that we can save. And I say that as a doctor again. Israel will prosecute this war.
But if we can get a humanitarian positive, we can get some of the hostages back, and if we can save some of these lives, that would be great.
You are a doctor, a former practicing physician, the former chief medical officer for Sacramento County congressman. When the gates finally open again and humanitarian aid can move in of Gaza, what is it they will need most?
You know, they will need clean water immediately. Ninety six percent of the water in Gaza, as I'm told, is undrinkable, and just the amount of folks that are getting cholera, getting creatable infectious diseases, and then starvation. I mean, you're hearing really bad reports that they're running out of food in Gaza. And again, the aid trucks are there. We just have to open, get more crossings open, get that aid in there and make sure it's getting to the civilians and getting to the right folks.
And again, I think everyone's ready to step up.
We introduced a resolution last week to really encourage the President to continue to push for that humanitarian aid.
In the meantime, we've got a very serious situation in the Red Sea. As we hear the Defense Secretary announcing this new maritime task force to protect commercial vessels, many of which have stopped traveling through the Red Sea to these persistent attacks from houthy militants in Yemen. To what extent will this task force make a difference? Congressman, is this something your committee is focused on?
It is, And again I.
Think the President, very early in this conflict, was decisive of moving assets into the region, aircraft carriers and other
support assets to make sure this conflict didn't broaden. We've talked to our friends, the Saudi foreign ministers in Washington d C. Last week as well as the foreign ministers from Tetter and Jordan and Turkey meeting with with Secretary Blincoln, but also met with us on the House and you know, along with trying to figure out how to end the conflict in Gaza, and the day after we did discuss how to continue to keep these maritime straits that that
are super important in terms of commerce open, how to make sure you know, we kept Lahuci rebels out of this, and you know, it is something that we're actively thinking about.
Is the US going to strike targets in Yemen? Go to the source to stop us from happening?
You know, again, that might be one way to stop it.
Right now, I think, you know, we're protecting the ships and doing what we have to do. But if this escalates, I can certainly see a scenario where we have to go to the source and address that at the root.
Cause it's pretty important. I wonder as you talk to Democrats in the House, to democrats even more so in California, and as I mentioned, younger democrats as we've seen eighteen to thirty eighteen to thirty four depending on the poll, who say we need to stop funding this action by Israel. Is there a line that BB Netna who could potentially cross that would cause that to happen.
You know, I'm not a Nanyaho supporter, and yeah, I think he's made some real great errors that have led us to where we are today. You know, when I talk to some of my Palestinian American constituents who have lost relatives, friends, and you know, it's heart wrenching as well, just as when I talk to some of my Israeli constituents and Jewish American constituents. How I approach it is that the Israelis need to do everything that they can to minimize innocent civilian lives.
And I think it's a reasonable question to.
Ask how they're prosecuting this war and see if they can do it in a more precise way. War is horrible and we're seeing the horrors of war. The other thing that I say to young people is the one thing we can do is make sure innocent civilians don't die of starvation, of lack of clean water, lack of access to medications. That's not war, that's compassion and humanitarian need.
And that's something that I really do push the Israelis to allow more crossings to open and to get that aid in there to prevent people from dying from eminently preventable causes.
Congressman, I feel like I should call you doctor. It's great to see you again, Ammi Bera. Thank you for joining and I hope this holiday season is great for you.
Happy New Year.
I hope we'll see a lot more of you in twenty twenty four. From California's sixth to sound On, Amy Barrow will assemble our panel next Genie Shanzino and Lester Munson.
This is Bloomberg. You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
How many issues can you imagine? Senators jd Vance, Josh Holly, and John Fetterman coming down on the same side and actually is happening right now, which is kind of remarkable, And I want the panels take on this as jd Vance and Josh Holly send a letter to the Biden administration urging they move to block this deal that sees a Japanese company buying US steel. This is a huge
headline from the past twenty four hours. If you're a stock trader, you probably know about a big day for US steel, and of course we know where they are based. John Fetterman, of course, fashions himself a steel man, speaking in a video from his hometown in Pennsylvania.
Here he is, I'm standing on the roof of my home right here in brad Pennsylvania, right across the street from the Edgar Thompson Plan, and I just have to say it's absolutely outrageous that they have sold themselves to a foreign nation and a company can't do that. Steel is always about security as well too, and I am committed to doing anything I can do for on using my platform on my position in order.
To block this.
He's right, Steele is about security, and I want to assemble the panel for their take on this. Genie Shanzano is with us today Bloomberg Politics contributor Democratic Analysts, joined by Republican strategist Lester Munchett Monson from BGR Group. Lester, are they onto something here?
I don't know?
If the Biden administration is going to move to try to squash this deal, this is Japan's Nippon Steal again, buying US steal one of the most iconic companies in American history. Do you think Holly Vance and Fetterman will stop it.
I don't know that they will. They will certainly cause a stir. I think the thing they have stumbled on is called xenophobia, so they seem to have that in common. It's unclear to me why a business deal with an allied country would be somehow bad for American security. We're as closely allied to Japan as we are to anyone. The economics and the steel industry are difficult under the best of circumstances. It is a good thing that Americans
can invest in assets abroad. It is a good thing generally that folks in other countries can invest here in the United States. So I'm generally speaking rather opposed to this criticism, subject to some of the details of the Dale coming out, But for sure the politics are benefiting populous on both sides.
This is interesting. The United Steel Workers urging US regulators to scrutinize the fourteen billion dollar deal, a Genie. Are these politicians driven by xenophobia or national security?
You know, I hope it's not xenophobia. I think they are probably driven by the fact that they all have close connections in their states with these unions and these workers. I mean, let's not forget we're talking about, you know, the Pittsburgh Steelers. You know, this is an one hundred and twenty year old plus company in the United States. It's an iconic company. This is thirty seven hundred workers.
And while we hear that they will Nipon will agree to abide by all the labor agreements, those are enormous concerns. So I think, you know, it's it's there's a lot of nostalgia there. There's a lot of politics there. On the flip side, I do agree with Lester. You know, we are not in World War two. Japan is one of our closest allies. We would hope this isn't xenophobia. And we also can't forget that Nipon has a handprint
of footprint in North America already. They have plants, they have space and places like West Virginia, Indiana, Mexico, so they are you know, closer. I think Southern United States, they are closer. I think that people maybe realize, but this is certainly getting a lot of play. It is
bipartisan because of the politics surrounding Pennsylvania. It's going to be very curious to see even what Biden has to say and the administration has to say about this deal as we march into the twenty twenty four election.
Absolutely, particularly with his affinity for the United steel Workers Union, Where do you think this goes politically? Then in a campaign year, Lester, you know Donald Trump's going to weigh in on this, speaking of xenophobia.
Well, Trump's going to weigh in. I expect Shared Brown, the incumbent senator in Ohio, who I believe is up for reelection next year, to be outspoken on this at some point as well. So it'll be interesting to track theirs. I do think it's notable that, you know, we're getting
this populist reaction from both parties. There seems to be no home for kind of the sensible support for business management in the United States anymore, and that kind of makes me think maybe there's an opportunity for a third party here. Gosh, next year might be more interesting than I think.
Well, I'll tell you the of industry has had a pretty heavy hand when it comes to antitrust. This FDC has been busy, Genie, do you think that the White House would have a problem with this in principle?
You know, I think they are going to want the deal and the parameters of the deal closely scrutinized. I think they are going to be supremely concerned about the impact on labor, as you mentioned, given how close Joe Biden is and how much he depends on it. And let's not forget, you know, just back to the politics of this as it pertains to labor. These are states where the margins of winning and losing are sometimes in the thousands over the last several election cycles, as you
look at Pennsylvania and Michigan. So they want to be very careful not to step on any support they might otherwise have. And I think that's what we're going to
see them vying for. And you know, the reality is is that this deal also there are a lot of questions being asked about, now, why MEPON is paying you know, what is it fifty fifty five dollars per share, which most people say is an over payment and so I think it would be really incumbent on Fetterman and Vance and you know, any of the other senators and skeptics to say, what are the national security concerns here? You're
hearing some things about chips and others. Those need to be brought out, and they need to be brought out now, because again, the deal, they were hoping to finalize it in just a matter of a few months by mid twenty twenty four.
Just wait for those hearings. In our last moment here, Lester, who's going to win the Union vote in this presidential election? Will it be a Democrat or Republican?
Well, you know, I think Joe Biden needs it to win. Donald Trump stole that vote from from Democrats in twenty sixteen, and Joe Biden got enough of them back in twenty
twenty to win to defeat Trump. I mean, is a little bit more complicated in that, but that's the They're both going after that demographic, there's no doubt, and I would look for both sides to be making you know, they're going to look to drive out their supporters in that constituency, So they're going to make more and more extreme statements and be more and more demagogic on this issue in order to drive their voters to the poll. So I don't think that's helpful when it comes to good government.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast Catch us Live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts.
Things are moving today. I don't know how we even got here already, because Kaylee Linees is sitting with me, so I know it's ours too good to see you. Likewise, this is an important day, I guess in coming to terms with reality. Senators, as I said earlier, have one foot out the door all of sixty one next you just showed up to vote last night. So this idea of having some grand breakthrough in a deal emerging that will actually vote on seem it pretty thin right now.
Seems like it's not going to happen. I think we can say that with a great deal of certainty at this point.
So I've not gone out at a limb here.
No, I think jet fumes are in the air. So I read a lot of people just didn't get on the jet back to Washington in the first place, but there is some business they can take care of in the next couple days before they wrap up the year twenty twenty three in terms of congressional business, including the Senate today possibly actually going to finally, once and for all, put an end to this blockade that Tommy Tubberville, the Senator from Alabama, had going.
For so long, which would have the guy would be almost a year in on this now.
Right.
If they get it done, we're down to eleven four star generals. Correct if you listen to or watch Bloomberg Sound on, you know a lot about this story because we've talked about it a lot, and I'm you know, the remarks from General Panaro are still echoing here in the studio among many others. We've talked to Republican and Democratic lawmakers who have been outraged about this and railing about it on the air, and it appears that this
is finally the day. As painful as it has been, it comes to an end.
Assuming they haven't it. If they get it done, people there to actually get these you need.
Enough people to show up. Yeah, that's the I guess the idea. So let us not predict let's bring the general in. Arnold Panaro is back with us, retired two star Marine Corps general and former staff director of the Senate Armed Services Committee, so we has a bit of an idea of how this stuff works. General, it's great to see if is this going to be the day we look back on Tommy's last stand?
Well, Joe and Kaylee, I sure hope so, but I don't know because Senator Schumer, after they finally got Senator Tuberville to back down and we got four hundred of our flag and general officers approved, like you said, almost a year, very very negative impacts on our military leadership during that period. We have eleven four stars and some of them are the top war fighting commanders that we need to get in place.
Because we tell the.
Mothers and fathers that we're going to pet their sons and daughters. They give us an uniform, will be the best trained, the best quip, and the best lad And he's holding up the best lead and he wasn't even in town.
So if he's holding it's by remote control.
And so Schumer either has to get cloture me if Tubberville won't agree to unanimous consent, or he's got to get a unanimous consent agreement where they can just be voted on by voice voting.
You know, with Senator Tubberville, you never know.
He kind of the last thing we heard from him publicly, he was still holding his ground. And let's just hope as Kaylee said that they started smelling the jet fumed right after Thanksgiving to do nothing. Congress has done absolutely nothing in the weeks they should have done leading up.
But let's hope we get these eleven through again. Three of them.
Are the top warfighting commanders of our top military units.
Okay, so assuming general that they can get this done. If we're leaning here on the side of optimism at this point, if everyone is to be confirmed, we can call this Tubberville blockade over. How much of the damage that was done is not able to be recovered from, if you will, or is this something we can really put in the rear view the military moves forward with not too much permanent damage done to it. As an institution, we.
Can't put it in the rearview mirror. And it's not over.
He can put his hold on again because we have more nominations coming in every week in the US Senate, and so we don't have any agreement looking forward.
In number two, the military will never put this in.
The rearview mirror because they've been politicized. He used them as political pawns over a policy that he disagreed with, that he had nothing to do with, and it's rumbled through. I'm over in the Pentagon a lot I'm talking to you know a lot of folks that are still on duty, and they are not putting this in the rearview mirror at all. It's had a really negative impact on morale, on readiness, not just on the people in uniform, but on their families and their children.
Well, it sounds like we may not be done with this, depending on what the Senator from Alabama decides to do early next year at general. I wonder if you share the frustration on top of all of this that many Ukrainians feel that military aid that they say is badly needed within weeks as they run out of money, is locked up in a debate over our border with Mexico. Should this emergency funding be tied in with that type of domestic policy.
Well, Joe, let me just say that this has been one of the most disappointing things I've seen in the almost fifty years I've been working the Hill and working these issues. Because we're going into the new year, and the national security as it relates to Ukraine, as it relates to support to Israel, as it relates to additional support to Taiwan, as it relates to increasing security on our borders, and this it relates to having a full
year defense appropriation for our own Department of Defense. We're not going to be getting any sugar plums and our stockings this year. We're gonna get big lumps of coal. Because the do nothing Congress has done absolutely nothing. They're gonna go into the new year. They have no agreement on the top lines, they have no deals worked out on this supplemental that where Ukraine, for example, has already said they've run out of artillery, and so we are in a very very bad situation.
Those of Congress has been divving and not getting their work done.
And so I think the political reality is we've got a serious national security issue on the border. It's going to be tied to funding you for Ukraine, and nobody's going to be able to get around that. So they just need to suck it up and get their work done.
Okay, Well, general, this really has been cast as competing national security interests, if you will, there's a messaging battle kind of happening. On the one side. You have Republicans saying you have to address national security issues at home first the US border before you go and give more
money to defend another country's border. Speaking here of Ukraine, do you is that argument valid or are the stakes here when it comes to what a potential Russian victory in Ukraine could mean for the global order just too high for that kind of argument.
Look, look the seriousness and the adverse impacts. The Wall Street Journal had an editorial today. We're one of their most distinguished columnists. We're tired now, but he writes every once in a while, said, one of the big winners in twenty twenty three is Putin because he basically the economic sanctions haven't hurt him. The West is tiring out. We couldn't get the final funding for Ukraine finished before there,
he sees. And again, if Putin was to win in Ukraine, it would send a signal to China, to North Korea, to Iran to be even more aggressive than they've already been.
So while the border security is important.
I don't see it at the same level, in the same drastic consequence that would occur, you know, if Putin was to win in Ukraine.
And right now again the Wall Street Journal.
Very conservative newspaper, is given plaudits to Vladimir Putin.
Quite a dangerous world we're living in here general, because we can keep going as I I want you to what's happening in the Middle East and specifically this new task force to manage what's happening in the Red Sea where we're seeing commercial shipping come to a halt based on persistent attacks from these Houthi militants in Yemen. Is it time for the United States to strike at the source?
Absolutely?
I mean, look, freedom of navigation is an essential element of worldwide commerce, particularly for the United States of America. That's why we don't want China to basically have domain over the South China Sea, where five trillion dollars of
the world economy moves through there every year. The Red Sea, the Straits, and hermos Panama Canal, the sus Canal, these have got to be these waterways have got to be kept open, and frankly, it's ridiculous that basically we are allowing these one hundred thousand dollars drones to go after high ships and go after these large tankers, and we're
spending two million dollars per missile to shoot them down. Frankly, where I come from in the military, you go to the source, and you know the hoodies or down in Yemen, right down at the bottom of the Red Sea. We should be taking out their sites where they're firing these missiles from. That's a lot safer way and a lot less risk to our ships into the tankers than basically trying to shoot them down in the air where they're
on the way there. As a young second lieutenant in Vietnam, my main mission as a marine platoon commander was the interdict the interdict the ho Chi mintrail where the Chinese brought supplies into the South. And I had this silly notion, I said, well, why don't we try to stop them up north when they're still in China coming through North Vietnam so we don't have to fight with our Banets
when they get here right into our face. Well, what we ought to be doing with the Huti rebels is taking out their sites where they're firing on our ships before our ships one hundred thousand dollars missile. Then it was to hit one of these billion dollar destroyers, just like happening in the First Gulf War when one of our big naval combatants had a twenty five dollars mind it did a billion dollars worth of damage. It's just
way too risky to do the way we're doing it now. Certainly, we should have freedom of navigation and keep these roterways open, but we should take the fight to the Uti rebels where they're firing the missiles.
Well, generally you just described as the Hooti rebels as being isolated, and yet aren't they a proxy for Iran, which is potentially a much greater threat. And I just wonder if the US were to take that kind of of direct action, if that actually escalates the threat of this turning into a wider regional conflict.
Well, Kaylee, I meant isolated geographically. They're located in other words, meaning they would not be hard for our TAC dogs to find them. They're isolated geographically in a small part of Yaman at the bottom of the Red Sea. We do worry about escalation, but look Iran, he's been operating with impunity.
They we are not deterring them.
We have got to take much stronger action, not just against the Hooti rebels, but against the Iranian proxies that are attacking our forces in Iraq and Syria. And we haven't sent a strong enough message that there would be consequences to pay. And again, I don't think as Balla has not jumped in in the northern tier other than random attacks, and Iran does not want to get into
a shooting war with the United States. I think the fear of escalation is not a realistic any more than I thought the fear of Putin using nuclear weapons and escalating. I think we were way too timid when we first went into Ukraine and held the Ukrainians back when they could have been attacking the Russian supply lines in Russia.
Well, let's hear you out on what's happening in Israel, because the Biden administration is being told to start pulling back and delivering that message to the IDF to end this phase of the war with Hemas. Is that what needs to be done now?
General?
And how do you respond to the critics, And there are a lot of them, we're hearing from them every day here on the program. The administration is hearing from them as well, critics who say you can defeat Hamas without killing as many civilians in Gaza.
Well, certainly, as someone that's operated in a number of wars and built up areas and combat and built up areas and urban areas is extremely difficult. Crosswith pointed that out. It always favors the defender, which is of course in this case Hamas. You can operate in these areas and minimize civilian casualties, you're not going to eliminate them one hundred percent, and I think more could be done on
that front. But on the other hand, you know, both the Hoodi rebels and the Hamas they basically say death to America, death to Israel, and Hamas wants to wipe the state of Israel and all the Jews that live there off the face of the earth. And so Israel has got to basically deal with this threat. I mean, frankly, if citizens in the northern part of the United States or in the southern part were attacked from terrorists either from Canada or Mexico, the citizens of this country would
demand our military to be responding. And so I think they can be more careful, but in the final analysis, combat and built up areas is a very very different You've got to root them out. And basically the only way that is really is going to basically protect their sovereignty and protect their own citizens is they're going to have to take a moss.
Out where they are.
And they they hide in tunnels, they hide under hospitals, they hide and protected targets, and and uh that they've given the Israeli military, Uh, no alternative but to get in there.
And and and and and go, you know, in close in and counter. And that's just the bottom line.
But guess what it's been like that and every war that we've been in, uh, you know, you look at World War Two, and you look at the the US of course was taken on Hitler in Japan, and look at the amount of civil Tazili's unfortunately that had to be encouraged to be able to win that war.
And I'm I'm across as a war miner.
But let's face it, I guarantee you if the citizens of the United States of America were at had the same risk the Israeli citizens have, they would demand that our government and our military take those threats out.
All right, General, we'll leave it on that note. As always, we appreciate insight. Thank you very much for joining. Happy holidays and happy New Year to you, even if it is a year that Joe clearly could potentially still be ring great geopolitical risk and interesting to hear from the General there that the military strategic reality may be running into pretty direct conflict with the political reality of the
climate here in the US. For the administration, on the one hand, Israel needs to do what it needs to do to defend itself. On the other it's getting very hard to justify the cost and civilian lives.
It's a really complicated conversation. It's not going to get easier in the new year, but we will continue having it here. Kaylee, thanks again to the General. With Kaylee lines, I'm Joe Matthew. Glad you're with us. Thanks for listening to the Sound on podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts, and you can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC at one pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com.