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We have a lot of questions now that a fourth indictment is drops approved by a grand jury in Fulton County, Georgia, where Fani Willis is the district attorney.
A Fulton County grand jury returned a true bill of indictment charging nineteen individuals with violations of Georgia law arising from a criminal conspiracy to overturn the results of the twenty twenty presidential election in this state. The indictment includes forty one felony counts and his ninety seven pages long. Please remember that everyone charged in this bill of indictment is presumed innocent.
And when we say everyone, we're talking about some familiar names here code defendants, including Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, the former White House Chief of Staff, former Senior Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark. Even Sidney Powell shows up in there. Remember they were going to unleash the Kraken. Maybe Finie Willis's turn. Well, the case that's centered around the Ricode charge we talked about a racketeering case.
Every individual charge in the indictment is charged with one count of violating Georgia's Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act through participation in a criminal enterprise in Fulton County, Georgia and elsewhere to accomplish the illegal goal of allowing Donald J. Trump to seize the presidential term of office beginning on January twenty twenty one.
All right, so that's from last night. This was late, by the way. It's like, you know, we're getting up around midnight here with reporters in the courtroom for hours waiting for something to happen. I guess it's a good thing they hung out now. Willis is asking that all defendants surrender by August twenty fifth, that would be next Friday.
Nothing says they can't come sooner. Also says she intends to try them all together, nineteen defendants together, Donald Trump, the eighteen co defendants, and she's asking a judge to hold the trial in the next six months. Unclear if any of this will take place with the legal team representing the former president that intends to delay, delay, delay, That's what I'm glad to say. We're joined by Ty Cobb,
the former White House Council in the Trump administration. He was there from July seventeen to May eighteen, just to give you a sense. This was back in the Russia, Russia, Russia period of time. Also, former Department of Justice official now practicing attorney, Tykob, Welcome back to Bloomberg. It's great to have you. Can I just start by asking, do you think Donald Trump will actually show up at the court next week?
At some point he'll have to. They may negotiate a time, but at some point he'll have to appear and be arraigned, as he has been in the other cases.
So let's talk about the indictment here, much more broad, more sweeping, much larger scale than what we saw come from the Special Council here in Washington, even though they're technically really about the same thing. Attempts to overturn the results of the twenty election. How strong is this case?
You know, it's hard to tell. I mean, it's not immediately clear from the indictment how strong the case is. Although the indictment is extensively detailed, looks professionally done. Certainly, the counts that track the counts in the federal case are presented in very similar fashion, you know, with great detail and the loss set out matter of factly, some of the Georgia claims not quite as crystal clear what
the evidence is. But but yes, no, I think this is This reflects a great deal of work and a lot of effort by Ms. Willisoner's staff.
I'm sure you can argue this, you know, two different ways. The Special Council chosen narrow something. Oh, that's right, that's why, that's why we're here. The Special Council chose a narrower path, maybe something that he saws more of a sure thing. In this indictment. It includes one hundred and sixty one specific acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. It carries charges the racket hearing charges with minimum sentences. Is funny? Will this biting off more than she can shoot?
I think that remains to be seen. You know, she has tried large cases before, indicted other large cases that are still ongoing. You know, she has a track record as a prosecutor of having handled some difficult and important cases. So you know, I think it remains to be seen. I do think there's some difficulty tying tying all these charges together. I think the one thing I can say for sure is this trial will not start in six months. There are there will be motions di sever there will
be motions. There may even be some removal motions on behalf of Trump and Meadows. There will be issues between the defendants. I think think that there will be, you know, a number of challenges to this case. Keep in mind that you know a prosecutorial misconduct complaint was recently withdrawn. I would expect to see that raised again. I think the three I think the three false electors who were ultimately indicted out of what I call to be twelve. But I could be off that. I could be off on that.
You know.
I think they will have some selected prosecution claims that are likely to be heard as the why them and not the others. So this is not going to be an easy case to get to trial. And there's no way Jack Smith, who has a lot of power in this in this arena, to dictate to the order of cases. I don't think there's any way Jack Smith would permit ms Willis to go to trial before he does given the overlap and witnesses and the damage her use of those witnesses could do to his case.
Well, that's a great point, And I wonder your thought on these eighteen code defendants. They're unnamed co conspirators, fewer of them in the Special Council's case. Is she naming uh these folks and in fact charging them in the hopes that one or more will flip?
Hard to say likely that that one or more of these will flip, I'd be I'd be surprised to see uh, all all nineteen defendants in the courtroom together at any time. But uh, certainly it's likely that some may flip. But at the same time, I think in terms of, you know, the significant defendance, you know, the likelihoods they will they will go to trial if the case actually gets to trial. Keep in mind, so she's been working on this case for two and a half years, we finally got into
an indictment. Getting from there to trial in six months, particularly given the amount of discovery that she has and the number of motions that she's going to face, I just don't see that happening. I also think the scheduling issue is given given the Jack Smith effort to get his trial in January, which is as yet unresolved in
the mar A Lago trial currently set for March. I just don't believe, you know, they're going to fit in this trial, and this trial will take a long time, at least at least as charged, if they intend to prove everything that they have they have targeted.
I'm struck by how any uncertainties there are around this because you hear analysis and they say, well, in this case, it's it's unpardonable because it's it's a state situation here. You can't have a federal pardon and the governor can't do that in Georgia with a racketeering case or something like that. But what if they moved it to federal court?
Tied?
Does that happen?
Well, so.
There may be an effort to move it to federal court, but I'm not sure that it fits neatly under the removal statue involved twenty eight USC. Fourteen forty two A. It's it's it's hard to see importuning the governor of Georgia to come up with eleven seven hundred and eighty votes as under color of law, as is required in the statute. So I do think the odds are that it stays in the state court. But I also think there's a real possibility it never gets tried, or it
doesn't get tried for five years. The reason for so, the reason for that being it unless it gets tried. So, I mean, this is there's a lot of what ifs. But if Trump won the White House. You know, the Justice Department policy at present, which is only a policy, but it's been closely adhered to, is that the president cannot be prosecuted by the States or anybody else during
the term of his presidency. Uh so Trump, Trump, having the opportunity to serve four years, could delay this trial for for the length of the presidency, if indeed he won, if he loses. You know, all bets are often you know, this case, this case moves forward.
That's really something. He's not a young man, Ty Cobb, you know that is it possible Donald Trump can delay this for the rest of his life.
I don't think he would. I don't think he would look at it quite that way.
Probably not, you.
Know, in the sense of I hope I die before I have to trial and Georgia. Yeah, but I do think this could be delayed substantially and certainly I think this case, in particular, of of the cases that matter, which are the two federal cases, and this one, the New York case, is more of a political stunting unlikely to hold up, but other cases that matter, I think this is the least likely to get to trial before the election.
Do you believe Donald Trump knew he lost?
Do I personally believe that? Yes, I personally believe that. But but more importantly, it's the evidence that will dictate that. And you know, uh, there's a subset there are There is going to be direct evidence that he knew he lost, and people will testify that, you know, he said things like can you believe I lost the Joe Biden? Or uh, you know, we'll leave that for the next guy, that
kind of thing. I think there'll be substantially more direct evidence, you know, perhaps from Meadows and others on that issue. But you know, under under federal law and most most states, the wolful blindness standard is an adequate substitute for actual knowledge. And if the Attorney General and you know, half the Cabinet and uh fourteen general counsels from you know a variety of agencies, and your white House counsel, Uh are
telling you that you lost. It's very difficult for you know, an average you're to say, you know, how could he not have known?
You were? Of course White House counsel during the whole Russia probe. You've been around Donald Trump, Uh when it comes to allegations of electoral misconduct for some time or you were then. With everything that we've learned here, Ty Cobb, with everything we know now, is there a part of you that regrets representing Donald Trump?
No?
So my job I was not his personal lawyer. My job was to represent the White House as an institution in connection with the Russia investigation and manage the White House response to to Muller. Bob Muller a longtime friend of mine, and you know, in my situation, we chose to be cooperative in order to maintain executive privilege and avoid many of the pitfalls of going to court forfeiting for village making takes public that otherwise wouldn't need to
be public. And that was, of course, you know, we chose because it was it was very clear that that the Russia effort was, unlike unlike the matters recently charged, was a pure hoax.
Well, I'll tell you what. I appreciate your coming to talk to us here. Ty Cobb. You've you've been a good voice to help us understand the charges here on what is now a fourth We talked after the third, and we'd love to stay in touch with former White House counsel during the Trump administration. Ty Cobb coming up. We assemble the panel and let them sink their teeth into this. Georgia Peach, Rick Davis, and Jeanie Shanzano coming up next on indictment number four, what it means for
the primary and the general. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. This is Bloomberg.
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What a night it was for Robert mcbernie, the Fulton County judge who found himself on duty until the wee hours on what would, of course, be the day that the Trump indictment dropped. There in Georgia, with scores of reporters lining the halls, in the courthouse, in the courtroom, cameras everywhere. It finally happened, and here everybody's watching along a pretty remarkable moment as he went through the page,
took his time, Sheriff delivers. You know, he's got the ninety something pages and flipping through the whole thing, and it was his job to certify the indictments so it could then be moved forward as he finished his work.
All right, thanks cheery, good luck the rest of the evening, sire, your bet.
Yeah, anybody else, everybody's saying, is it all you hoped it would be?
I didn't get a good look, so you all need to leave.
I mean that politely and nicely.
You've had a long day, but these folks can't go until.
You all go.
The old blues brothers. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Let's assemble the panel. Rick Davis and Genie Shanzino join us Bloomberg Politics contributors with a lot to talk about here following our conversation with ty Cobb. Rick, your thoughts on this fourth indictment number four? It's just remarkable when you actually say it out loud here and ty Cobb's point that it may well be the last one to be tried.
Yeah, this is really a stunner indictment, sprawling number of defendants, incredible number of acts of conspiracy.
Uh and and and what.
You had ty Cobb talking about the complex nature of this really put it in fantastic terms to understand the immensity of this reco charge and and and he makes a very compelling case that if this doesn't get done between now an election day, and you wonder how it can with all these defendants getting tried at the same time.
Then then you're right.
You're then putting this aside based on what the Justice Department tends to do with presidential lawsuits and and and.
Things like this, for another four years.
I mean, and it just blows my mind to think that, like, we could be waking up five six years from now and this trial.
Starts up again in earnest. I mean, I just get it's beyond my comprehension.
Knowing no one has the My god, Genie, you wrote the column about indictment fit, did Jeff for imagine we'd be doing this five years from now? Potentially. Does this mean Genie Shanzeo, that the real case to watch is the one here in Washington, jack Smith's case made for efficiency, not this sprawling thing in Georgia.
Yeah, ty Cob just depressed me enormously with this. We may go five years out on this, you know. For my money, I think the Document's case is the most clear cut and dry case. Although certainly Jack Smith is trying to get the January sixth case, so to speak, earlier. But I do think legally that that is the most sound case, you know, And I also don't believe that they we will see that January sixth case in DC
starting on January second, as Jack Smith wanted. I do think that Jack Smith has got to be a tiny bit perturbed by what happened in Georgia last night. Not unexpected, of course, because much of the behavior and the conduct he has already charged Trump with in the case in DC. Now you've got another case, same witnesses. And you know, we heard ty Cobb saying, you know, he's certainly and I agree with ty Cobb on this, he's not gonna want Fonnie Willis's case going first, and won't you know,
allow that if he can help it. The other thing is is that he certainly has got to be, you know, a bit frustrated that this is happening at all. Not the other eighteen defendants weren't charged in his case, but certainly as you look at Trump, so I think there's a little bit of prosecutorial combat going on here. But nothing's gonna stop either one of them. This state case will certainly go forward, and unlikely, by the way, the federal courts will be able to move it up. This
is certainly a rico case. The state has a right to show their facts hard to get that appealed and take it into the federal courts.
We heard from the former lieutenant governor of Georgia, Republican of course, who Donald Trump was writing about on truth social the other day, suggesting that he should not testify. He did and spoke with reporters when he exited the courtroom yesterday. I remember this is a Republican speaking now in Jeff Duncan here.
He is, well, I hope my testimony gets the facts, you know, as they are, and helps to continue to paint a real and honest picture. But politically speaking, this is a pivot point for this country to do something more than just stew on the twenty twenty election cycle. Right, we're either going to, as Republicans, take our medicine and realize the election wasn't rigged. Donald Trump was the worst candidate ever in the history of the party, even worse
than herschel Walker. And now we're gonna have to pivot from there. Right, we want to win an election in twenty twenty four, it's gonna have to be somebody other than Donald Trump.
The worst candidate in the history of our country. That's quite a statement, Rick, I just wonder your thoughts on Donald Trump's standing among Republicans in Georgia. It's awfully complicated when you have people voting for Brian Kemp and then I guess somehow Donald Trump. Would it be different next time?
No, I think that's a really important dynamic.
You point out, Joe, because is you know, you try to look at like how many of his favorables is he getting, how many of people, you know, like the governor Kemp is getting off of his favorables?
Where do they where they cross over?
I can't imagine a more complex race than the one he ran at twenty twenty with you know, all these Senate candidates and being on the ballot at the same time, but he also remembers his last real political feat was to try and actually beat Governor camp, a wildly popular Republican in the state. And and so when you look at this and you hear these comments by Jeff Duncan, and you think, you know, the Democratic playbook on advertising against Donald Trump is being written by Republicans.
I mean, I've.
Never seen anything like this where the number of quotes that you could put into a TV advertisement in the state of Georgia with Republicans attacking Donald Trump is like nothing that's ever happened in modern American politics. They'll ever have to have a message delivered by Democrats against Trump because of all these Republicans saying things like Jeff Duncan said, which is.
He's the worst candidate in history.
Yeah, and so it's just going to be I don't know how you overcome that.
I don't These are credible people.
He was a lieutenant governor, he's got his own popularity, and for having them say these things, and it's just getting started. I mean, imagine when one or two or three of these current indicted defendants start to turn and make public statements. Donald Trump's not the only one with a megaphone at that point, and I think he's going to pay an incredible price for that.
Politically, well, i'll tell you what. Republicans in the US House are still behind him, Genie the Speaker himself, Kevin McCarthy on Twitter or x or whatever it is. Justice should be blind. But Biden has weaponized government against his leading political opponent to interfere in the twenty twenty four election. Now, a radical da in Georgia, he writes, almost as if this is Trump writing, is following Biden's lead by attacking President Trump and using it to fund raise her political career.
Americans see through this desperate sham. Getting back to Rick's point, how can you argue this is the weaponization of government when it's coming from Republicans in Georgia.
Well, far be it from me to advise Donald Trump's campaign. But what they will say is what they always say, Those are a bunch of rhinos. Jack Duncan, the former lieutenant governor, is a rhino, as is Adam Kissinger, as is Liz Cheney. I mean, they will go down the list to your point. We've heard a lot of people defending Donald Trump in just a few minutes. Ted Cruz I think was one of the first, a least stefanic, Kevin McCarthy. I mean, the list goes on and on,
and conservative media is also defending him. There was Alan Dershowitz on Foxy talking about how al Gore did the same thing in Florida. Why isn't he prosecuted. So this is what voters on the ground are hearing. They are hearing this is overkill. They are hearing the first president for indictments, and so that is what they are is going to be ringing in their ears as Trump bellows out that these are rhinos, they're not real Republicans. So, you know, I agree with Rick, Democrats should use these
in their campaigns. It may help with moderates and independence, which will keep the White House. But it's not going to stop Trump from getting the primary election because it appeals to people on the ground who vote in primaries.
We're going to get into the primaries, and we have a couple of new polls that I want to look at with you coming up and in our remaining moment right now, Rick, it's been crickets in the Senate and you've made this point repeatedly. It's like a different Republican Party in these two chambers.
Yeah, we've seen Mitch McConnell and the leadership there go through various phases of withdrawal when it comes to trying to say goodbye to Donald Trump, and none of it has particularly worked because he's still there and he's still powerful. And the reality is that that Mitch McConnell has tried to wage a quiet war.
Against Donald Trump.
But my sense is that that's not working. There's no evidence that it's hurt Donald Trump's standing with Republican voters, and ultimately, that is the only judge in all of this is the will Republican voters turn out for Donald Trump? And if they do, how does that complicate everybody's views? And Republican senators other than his most dire supporters like Ted Cruz, who without Donald Trump, is the most exposed man in the United States Senate, he will have very
little influence if Donald Trump is not around anymore. And that's why they're out there defending him today because he is their lifeline to power.
We'll dig into the campaign ahead with new numbers nationally and for the state of New Hampshire.
I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Blog Business app, or listen on demand wherever you get your podcast. Yeah.
Of course, Donald Trump never won to miss an opportunity, and he'll be taking this one. With a news conference scheduled for Monday morning. Donald Trump on Truth Social I'm using Genie's log in here. A large, complex, detailed but irrefutable report in all caps on the presidential election fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete, he writes, and will be presented by me at a major news
conference eleven am Monday, Bedminster, New Jersey. Based on the results of this conclusive report, all charges should be dropped against me and others. We reassemble our panel, Rick Davis and Genie Shanzo, Bloomberg Politics contributors. I hope you don't mind me using your log in here, Genie, but it's going to be an interesting week next week. Think about what we have scheduled here, A news conference apparently Bedminster Monday.
There's a debate next week, guys. That's Wednesday, the twenty third, Milwaukee, and then by Friday, all of the defendants named in this indictment face a deadline to show up in court and surrender themselves. Hard to say which one will get bigger ratings, but the nation will be watching. Jeanie. What's this news conference going to bring us on Monday?
It's going to bring you logging into truth social a lot more, Joe, And you know, I'm just listening to you reiterate the schedule for next week, and I think it's three days later, the twenty eighth, we have the next hearing on the January sixth case in d C. I mean, it is just mind umbing to think about the collision between the political calendar and now the legal calendar, and of course with him adding to it with the news conference on Monday at eleven, it's utterly astoundished, astonishing
to think how any individual could you fight on both of these fronts. And I'm not sure how the president, the former president can, but he seems determined to keep this up.
It was Rick Davis on this program who I believe predicted first of all, Donald Trump not showing up at that debate. Most likely he's been dancing around that whole idea. But Rick, I wonder how he seeses on the opportunity. A producer. James here had actually a pretty interesting idea. What if he doesn't wait till Friday. What if he does go to the courthouse in Georgia, but he does it on Wednesday, does it the same day as the debate and either shows up on the stage or goes
back home to hold a news conference or something. Isn't that the kind of counterprogramming we should expect.
Yeah, I think James must be renting space in Donald Trump's head right now, because I would think that that's exactly the Donald Trump move. Right. You notice he said originally when he said he didn't think he was going to go to the debate, that he'd do his own event. Well, he's got already made one at Fulton County Court, that's right. And every major news outlet will take it live like they've done with all the previous indictments, and this one
will be no exception. And that will leave eleven other Republican presidential candidates getting probably you know, a smidgeon of news out of the debate. In Milwaukee, Wisconsin, because of course, nobody will really care what they're talking about, unless, of course, one of them breaks their silence and decides to go after Donald Trump, and then that'll probably get all kinds of coverage that plays into the scenario that Donald Trump has set up.
For all of them.
It's, you know, either way, we're talking aboun to be all.
Trump next week, and.
It's not the way he would have wanted it, but it's certainly from his perspective. If it's Trump all the time, then then it's a good thing, even if it's bad news.
So we've got new pulling out today morning consults with a national poll. The samples pretty good, more than three thousand likely Republican primary voters granted national Donald Trump fifty seven. By the way, they wrap this on the thirteenth, all right, so it was the day before the indictment, dropped eleven through the thirteenth, Donald Trump fifty seven percent, Ron DeSantis sixteen, Vivek Ramaswami nine, Mike Pence seven and then we go
off a cliff after that. But then there's the Emerson College pole and this is coming out of the primary in New Hampshire, Trump forty nine. Look who's in second place, Chris Christi at nine percent, followed by DeSantis at eight What do these tell you, Genie?
You know, I think two things in particular from the Emerson number One, DeSantis support is dwindling in New Hampshire. He's not going in the frank direction. We should say that. Of course, Chris Christy, just one percent ahead of him, is still well within the margin of era, which is
three point four on that pole. But I think the other thing that really struck me as you look at the top concerns of New Hampshire voters, not surprisingly you see economy, you see housing, and look at that third one, threats to democracy. Just what we're talking about with a presidential candidate, former president, who's charged with four indictments out on bail right now in three different jurisdictions, soon to be a fourth. This is where this is coming from.
It's not common in election polling in the modern era. You see that, and I think that may account for some of what we are seeing with Christie's rising support. And of course Chris Christie predicted a long time ago by election day, primary day, he will be in first in New Hampshire. I'm not saying that's going to happen. But he certainly has moved up in this poll.
So does this tell you more about Chris Christie rising to nine or Desanta's falling to eight? Rick Davis, you know, it tells me.
The thing you know about primaries is that states matter and campaigns matter. And Chris Christy isn't really campaigning in Iowa where all the rest of his contenders are, and he's put New Hampshire first in his strategy and it's starting to pay off, and he's doing it.
Relatively below the radar.
Of course we see him constantly on cable TV, but he's in New Hampshire, you know, almost every day, meeting voters and building a coalition of people who could, you know, help him build an election win.
So I think he's doing exactly what he needs to be doing to be relevant as a candidate.
And we can dismiss him all we want when it comes to these national polls, but he's he's actually playing the calendar.
And can he.
Survive not being around Iowa With all the attention on Iowa, we'll see?
I mean, Iowa is more relevant today than it usually is.
And and if there is an upset, meaning Donald Trump doesn't win Iowa, then then it boosts Christy, who will have had somebody else do the dirty work in Iowa so that he could take advantage of it in New Hampshire. So it's a it's a legit strategy, and I think you know this polling tells you that that you know it's it's it's starting to pay off.
Interesting this morning. Console poll that I mentioned, the national poll is the ticket that several candidates are punching here to get on the stage for the second debate. Of course Trump and DeSantis will be there the RNC though, as we discussed tightening criteria here, you're going to need three percent now in a national poll, and that means that that Ramaswami is in, Nicky Haley, Senator Tim Scott,
and the aforementioned Chris Christy. Will see who else ends up making the stage because Asa Hutchinson, Bergham, Suarez heard someone else all zero to one percent. I'm Joe Matthew and Washington with our great panel, Rick Davis and Genie Shanzino. We're going to talk about Ron DeSantis. I thought he's sat for a big time interview last night, but now what's talking about it.
I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and.
The Bloomberg Business App.
You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven.
Just a big interview for Ronda Santis. Remember he's going to start doing more media, talking to more media operations, not just the conservative cable networks, and so he went on the other big financial network last night. It was a big thing. Interesting. He showed up a program called Last Call, and some were wondering if maybe it was a lot to talk about with the governor of Florida. Of course, you know, the contest with Donald Trump is war on woke and the whole thing about Walt Disney,
the war on Disney. That came up, as you would expect it it would in a conversation like this, and well, I'm just wondering if this whole thing is over.
Listen where we are today.
You know, we've we've basically moved on they're suing the State of Florida. They're going to lose that lawsuit. So what I would say is drop the lawsuit. Huh, and then what we all go home? Final thoughts from our panel, Rick Davis and Ny Schanzano. Rick, Is this done? Did did? Did he just fold on Disney?
Yeah? It sounded like a full retreat. Oh, you know, I got married there.
This is a great place I kept during COVID.
You know, no word.
Of you know, wokeness, no word of don't say gay, which started the fight, you know, and and the pitch you know, on a TV show to send a message to Bob Iger, the CEO of Disney's, saying.
Drop your lawsuit. We'll move on.
I must admit I'm flabberg acid because, you know, Genie and I have been talking for six months about like we don't.
Get the whole war on Disney.
We don't get the get you know, the the woke thing. You know, we don't understand what he's trying to accomplish. Well, now at least we know he agrees with us and he's moved on.
Is that how you see it? Genie? Does he does Disney drop a suit?
You know?
The mouse is very forgiving, and I agree with Rick. I'm so glad he's been listening. Ron get over the mouse. Move on, it's not helping. We love the mouse.
I hear the mouse can roar. I don't know about that. Let's see where we're going, but just remember this. On the fifteenth of August, Ronda Santis asking Disney to drop the soup. Thanks for listening to The Sound on podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts, and you can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC at one pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com