Toto Wolff (team principal of Mercedes F1 team)

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. Guys, buckle up, grab an extra pair of pants. And a helmet. And a helmet. My number one crush is here today, Toto Wolf. He's a worthy crush. Oh, my God.

He was fantastic. He had such a fun personality. I was very surprised. Right? I'm fascinated by someone that can be as serious as he is to make that team function. And then as... goddamn playful and fun as he was outside of that so if you're not into f1 doesn't matter you'll still love this because we're mostly talking about kind of mental health and the struggles of being a manager and all these things um But for context, he is the team principal and CEO of AMG Mercedes, which...

Won eight Constructors Championships in a row, which has never happened. No one's ever come close to that. For F1. For Formula 1. His accomplishment there will likely never be. So cool. taken away from it. It's just an unparalleled success as a team principal and a CEO. He's as good as you could be at this job. He is a part of a really interesting new book called Inside Mercedes F1 Life in the Fast Lane by Matt Wyman.

And great read if you're interested in the workings of that team, which are really fascinating. That's a great starter. Please enjoy Total Wolf. This episode is brought to you by WaterAid. Rachel is 12 years old. Every day she walks for hours in Chingonji, Malawi to collect dirty water that could make her sick. It's filthy, brown, and dangerous. Families in Malawi spend on average 55 minutes per day collecting water, but...

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to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash dax to get started today. Is it our children's man? Is it our children's man? Feel free to use that pillow as well if you need it. This sucks. We're getting a new couch. No, I think it doesn't. Okay, you're fine. Can I put the feet on? God, you're fucking gorgeous in person, Monica. How overwhelming is it? You are very handsome. I know. And you're very...

A bit taller than me. A tiny bit, but you're a better trained. Listen, there's a lot of nerdy things I did today. I was going to wear bigger shoes. Oh, you were? Because I hoped to be as tall as him in the photo. And I even considered putting on my work boots. And I'm like, you can't cheat.

you weren't. No, I'm wearing plates. Okay, good. You're on the floor too. But yeah, that crossed my mind as you just saw. I opened one of my garage doors hoping you would be interested in my cars. And how did that go? You guys were outside for a few minutes. Did you like them? I like it a lot because

it's a good mix between you. There's a Mercedes, obviously. Yes, obviously. And then I like the bikes. I'm riding bikes as well. Oh, you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. What do you ride? Like a tour adventure bike? What is it called? It's a vintage bike. MV Augusta? An MV Augusta I have as well.

So the story with the MV Augusta is more interesting than the Austrian bike I just mentioned. So one day it rings at the door and we are having scheduled dinner with Louis in Monaco. So he knows Susie for a long time, there is cars, so he comes for dinner. He rings at the door and says, come down, please. And I'm saying, no, come up. We're up here. No, no, there's really something I'd like to show you. And take Susie. So we're going down.

And he's there with his bike and it's an MV Augusta Lewis Hamilton edition. So I said, well, it's great the bike. Is that what you wanted to show me? And he says, it's yours. And I said, how come? He says, you know, you've done so many great things and you and I together and I've never given you a gift. So I want to give you the number one of a 44 edition. Oh, wow. That's so cool.

Oh, that's sweet. That's a very sweet present. So the other one is a Triumph Thruxton, which was converted by a German tuner to a proper coffee racer. And that's the bike I ride every day. Okay. I don't know if you saw on the garage. Sorry, Monica, I'm going to wrap up the technical stuff. No, it's okay. I have a sense this is going to be fairly appropriate. Yeah, I did. I did. I did. I have a Mercedes, too, that we should tell Toto. I'm about to defame Lewis. Oh, boy. Okay.

Toto, he didn't give him, Lewis earned them, but he got seven championships under Toto's direction. That's right. You and I were working together for three years. And I bought you a C43 AMG. Yeah, I got a present three years in. That's much better than an MV Augusta. I got another present, which is worse.

So, you know, drivers are very particular with helmets and Luis has all of the helmets that he's collected. So giving helmets away for him is a real struggle. Yes. So I got a lovely helmet from Valtteri or from Nico in the past, but I knew. they are less emotional about it. Yes. And can I ask quickly, he has a new helmet every race, right? No, I wouldn't say every race, but for sure, like every...

second or third race. Because I know his new paint jobs. Yeah, they change. And I think he's given me his most special one. Oh, he did? Yeah. When Niki Lauda died, we were very close, both of us. He made a Niki Lauda-designed helmet for the Monaco race. in 2019 and he won it holding on to i think daniel was behind him it was a

Huge struggle. So he gave me the Nickelodeon Memorial Helmet. And he wrote something nice on it. And I think this is a piece of memory that's priceless. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, new goal in life. We're going to ride together at some point. We can be far down.

When we're retired or something. Okay, let's start in Austria. First of all, we're both Capricorns. Even though I don't believe in astrology, I can feel your Capricorn. What is that? Very determined. My feelings are kind of secret. I can't show vulnerability. I'm on... I have to win. I'm going to beat myself up until I do. I'm managing everything. Control freak. No bullshit. Tell you the truth. Does this sound familiar? That sounds familiar, but...

I don't believe in astrology either. Me neither. So there is something that maybe Capricorns have in common is that they are born into cold January. Boom. Boom. Yes. The world is a hostile place when you arrive. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Especially in Austria. Absolutely. Thinking whether Detroit or Austria is more hostile. It depends if we're including homicides. Because I think Detroit has you.

Yeah, it has. And maybe also the freshness of the air. Yes, yes, yes. But that's why you're a car person also. Now, I was shocked to learn this this morning, that you're not. You're not Austrian. Your dad is Romanian and your mother is Polish. Yeah. And were they immigrants or had they grown up in Austria? My father was born in Bucharest and they immigrated.

after the war, interestingly. And I think there was a big wave of antisemitism back in the day. So my grandparents were called Rosa and Herschel. And when they moved to Austria, they called themselves Olaf and Maria. It's like the opposite. We are not Jewish. Wearing lederhosen and blowing horns, really saying I'm Austrian. Exactly. And my mother came to Vienna when she was 18.

Speaking no word of German and studied medicine, became a doctor. So that's why they met. Now, mom was a physician. What type? Like a family doctor? Anesthetologist. Anesthesiologist? Yes. Oh, wonderful. She had all the drugs. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah. She took some herself, but that's a different story. Sure, sure, sure. What did your dad do for a living? He had a transport company. Oh, he did?

And I know what you're referring to in Austria. Back in the day, you had to prepay the VAT for your customers. So that was taking a lot of risks. So that went belly up. So he was struggling and mom was succeeding in a pretty dramatic way. No, I think my father was very successful at a young age. I was born into money. But then he lost all and had brain cancer. You're eight years old? Yeah, and at the beginning it was benign.

And then over the next few years, it got really ugly to a degree that it was uncurable. He struggled for so long because he got operated and operated and operated and he changed his personality. And when a son is in his teenage years, you need your dad. You need your dad to look up to. love, you need to hate and to fight. He wasn't present anymore.

Yeah, because you were eight when he got diagnosed and then you were 15 when he died. Yeah. Your parents also got divorced when you were eight. It had no relation to the brain cancer diagnosis, did it? No, the divorce was that. Sorry, that must be a key to all my wife. Let's see which one. Feel free to answer. We also edit. I'd love to say hi to Susie if she's there.

Susie, I'm riding the podcast. Hello, Susie. I love you. No, no, I'll pass you over. I'll pass you over. I'll pass you over. Oh, this is so exciting. Susie? No, listen to me. This is such a delight. If my wife dies and Toto dies, I'm sprinting to you. OK, I just want to say. What a dynamo. A beautiful race car driver who also runs an academy. What more does someone need? That's pretty cool. All right. I'm going to turn you back to him, but I'm delighted to hear your voice. Here's Toto.

Hello? How fun. Okay, sleep well. Okay. Oh, she's going to bed. Yeah, she's in Scotland. And so I have this override in ringtones. It's my wife and my two children. You need to show me how to do that. Oh, that's smart. Yeah, like an emergency bypass. Oh. So it always rings even though I don't have a ringtone. I have the phone number on just when they call. Okay. Yeah, I need it.

how to do that. Apologies. This mic is never on. If we become friends, text me. I do. Yeah, we don't need to talk on the phone. Yeah, but I can give you an emergency override, like a bypass. If there's something that really bothers you, you just call me. If I'm in a really bad situation. I'd be careful. I'd be careful.

With giving him that. Also, you can't ignore calls then. If Kristen calls, you can't say, oh, I didn't get it. No, what I got to figure out is how to put it on her phone because she doesn't ever, ever answer. But what I think happened is I was asking you about your parents' divorce.

Susie was always there. And then she had a button to call to interrupt that question because she's like, oh, Toto is not going to want to talk about that. No, I talk openly about it. I know. You're wonderful. Because this is who I am. Yes. This is later in the conversation, but I'll say you and I have a blessing. we're big enough and we fit the role enough that it affords us a willingness to be vulnerable in a way men have a hard time doing. And I think it's a luxury.

Yeah. If I had a different life, it would be much harder for me. So I recognize it is easier for me than someone else. And we need to speak up about it because people look up to us and they think we're not vulnerable. I had these moments where I fell. inadequate and I've had somebody telling me back in the day I have what you have and I suffer but I'm still successful that would have given me a lot of hope.

And I didn't have hope at times. Yeah, in your teens and this happens, but mom and dad separated. So that was separate from the diagnosis. That was related to the failure of the company. I think my dad made my mother sign some collateral and she got a house, like an apartment building. from her date for the marriage and that was gone plus a credit.

so that was already my father was very ill didn't know anymore what was right and wrong and then she said trust is very difficult to build and it's gone so that's where they separated but i have no bad memory about the separation to be honest they never had a bad

They kept that away from us. It was more just seeing my mother struggle to make a living for us and my father not having had any money anymore. And that went so bad that I saw people coming to him asking basically to empty your pockets. That was...

Tough for a young man. Did you have brothers and sisters? I have a young sister, but she's not so young anymore. She's two years my junior. The thing I thought of, and this is a tricky question, but my dad got diagnosed with small cell carcinoma in August. And he was dead on January 1st. So it was like a three-month thing. And then my stepdad got prostate cancer. And that was like a two-and-a-half, three-year thing. And I'll say the stress.

of having a loved one have a condition that you're not sure when the end is, I found the experience with my dad much easier to process. It's like, okay, this is happening.

Let's spend the next few months together. I'll clear my schedule. I'll take you to your appointments. I find it very hard. And the notion that your dad had this condition for seven years, you're just kind of like, where are we at? What's going to happen? That feels very stressful. And then a guilt when you feel relieved it's over. Exactly. First of all, sorry to hear about your dad and your stepdad. A terrible guilt because it was at the point that his life was miserable.

And I saw it. And then you lose the connection, you lose respect. And it came to a point that when he died, I think today in hindsight it was better for him. But I thought it's better for all of us. And the guilty feeling that you have was so bad. And it's something that I only processed in the last few years.

Well, you were a kid. Yeah, so you can't in a way analyze the feelings that maybe you could because you were an adult. But for me, that guilty feeling of thinking it's better for my dad to be gone. Well, you kind of wish it be over for them. And myself and my sister. I think also we were...

So close. I remember being on his deathbed and obviously you're not seeing your father anymore, like the strong personality that people talk about. And these memories for a 15 year old and a 13 year old sister, I'm not sure I would do the same. Me as a parent. Yeah. Well, you're mourning twice. First, you mourn them with the diagnosis, but they're dead essentially before they're dead because they changed completely. Yes. It's hard to deal with. They've been gone for a while. But to me, that...

That was a huge gift because I had so much resentment. They got divorced when I was three. He had a great life. We lived kind of poorly. I had a lot of judgment of him. And there was the moment where I looked at him and you're right. He was not the big demonstrative alpha male.

He was a little boy on a bed. And I thought, oh, yeah, he's like a little boy. And he's always been a little boy. And I'm still a little boy. And you never stop being a little boy. And it actually dissolves so much resentment to see he's just a human that's scared. That was weirdly a gift.

Yeah, I think as an adult, it's a gift, but... Not at 15. Not at 15. No, no, no. No, not at 15. There was certainly memories that are hugely difficult to digest as a kid. And as I said, you know, I'm 52 today. I would say that I probably processed it in the last five years only.

that I look at it, I feel more calm and reassured in my own existence. Only now I have found peace with him dying over so many years and also with my mother because my mother wasn't present at all because she needed to earn the money and she needed to look after herself. So my sister and I were at home. We had Polish housekeeper. That was good for the language, actually. But she wasn't there. And now she's 79. She's not well. And she says to me, I wasn't a good mother. And I say, I...

forgive you because I know how difficult it was to be at home and see the suffering but at the end you're also responsible of how I am today so I'd rather as a kid not having trauma but I'm 52 years and if you ask me whether I'd rather be who i am today or white elephant i'd rather be who i am today

I think that's the weird piece you have to come to with your past, which is if you're lucky enough to end up somewhere you're happy with, as you have and I have, and I have kids I love so much and I have a great wife, I go, well, fuck, I wouldn't tinker with anything because I still want to end up right here. So I got to understand.

process that it was hurtful and these things happen and also have a weird gratitude for it and like it too. Exactly my thoughts and my feelings. Did something prompt five years ago? Why five years ago did you start confronting that? I think that I was so busy in my life. to get things done. And I always had that anxiety about failure. I said it jokingly that I'm a half empty glass person. I always stare into the abyss. Everything could be...

Finish tomorrow. The racing could be ending. The winning ends. The money could be all gone. My wife leaves me for the hairdresser. All of that. I don't believe that anymore, by the way. It'll be her trainer, not her hairdresser. It will be the fitness trainer. There is always danger. And only in the last few years, I thought if everything was to end today, I could go with a good feeling. You're there. Absolutely. If I were you.

And I set out on this journey first as a race car driver, then pivoting and becoming an investor in teams, then becoming a team principal and a CEO and having all this success. Five years ago, you would have been on your six constructors championship in a row. And if I were you, I would go, wow, we did absolutely everything we wanted to do. Where's the elation? Why aren't I whole?

Why don't I feel content? Why am I still scared? You're absolutely right. But I lost that anxiety. I'm thinking I have a wonderful relationship with my children. Like you said about... your relationships. I have the best wife that I can imagine. I have done what I wanted to do. And that's why I would have peace if I would be dying today. And that would have then in a way been destiny. But then there is a certain risk that's coming with that too.

And that's not good. It's scary, right? No, I don't want that. Because you'll have no fuel. I wouldn't say no fuel, but there is this moment where my anger is gone. So I need to proactively condition myself and say, what are my objectives? And in 2020, when the music stopped for someone that likes the music and doesn't like time, I had a year that I was really bad mentally.

I had to reflect, do I want to go back as an investor and look at multiple companies and be on the board, see businesses and technology that interest me and the variety of it, or do I want to consider as a racing person as basically a one-trick pony? And I came to the conclusion that I found my niche between business, finance and the love for the stopwatch and the honesty for the stopwatch. And at that moment, I really proactively, intellectually decided.

There is more to do and more to win and more to conquer. But it is more with an emotion that is less anxious about success. But the drive isn't gone. It's channeled in a different way. Okay, great. So this is my huge fear is that my motivation for the last 49 years has been you're lazy, you're a piece of shit. You're a failure. You're an embarrassment. And now get up and do things to disprove that theory. And so the great fear of mine is, can I write from a place of...

Happiness and love. Can I act from a place of happiness and love and not fear? Could I win from a place that's not fear-based? And that's a leap of faith. I'm like midway there. I'm not where you're at. I don't fully trust. that without some bit of cancerous rumination, I'll actually be motivated. But you have two years to, you know, get over this.

And those two years were important for me. But it's that I think imposter syndrome and all of the characteristics you mentioned, they have softened. They haven't completely gone away. conditioned in a healthier way. There's many people that don't want to go to a psychiatrist because they fear that they're losing their ability. Artists, writers, people that have a lot of creativity.

don't want to go to sort out their mental problems. They don't want to go on medication because they believe this is a huge fuel of their creativity. Because how often do we actually spend time In thinking about our objectives and the analogy we are having in the team is being between the dance floor and the balcony. We are on the dance floor. Most of the time that is in action. Yeah. When are we going actually on the balcony?

And looking down what's happening on the dance floor and thinking about what's my long-term strategy here? What is it that I believe I should recalibrate? A lot of these different tech gurus have this built-in moment in their schedule. For some people, it's like four days a month or it's a week a month or it's a month a year. Bill Gates is reading. Yeah.

takes that stack of books and he sits in his little cabin and he allows himself to stop staring at the thing in front of him and get that kind of wider perspective. You can't really do that. Or how would you do that? Because you have 23 races. And then in the off season, it's maybe even more work because you have the next iteration of the car coming out next year. So how on earth do you build in that time? So I do it actively. For me, for example, flying.

in an airplane and I do 600 hours a year for whatever reason I don't enjoy watching movies I don't enjoy listening to music I like reading and the reading gives me a stimulation of thinking about those things. So I stay at the ceiling. I do it in the mornings. I take my time in the mornings for myself and lying in bed for another 20 minutes allows me to do these things. So it's actually activities.

that run, in a way, on autopilot. And I don't know if you know that. There is a scientific explanation to that. Why do you have your best ideas in the shower, in the toilets, while shaving in the car? Because your brain is actually active, but it's on autopilot. You're doing all of that. So that is why we have those creative moments. And for me, it's also lying in bed or it's flying in an airplane. I think a lot about those things and I write them down.

That makes sense. And I relate to that. I need a certain level of distraction where you're right. The subconscious is driving the car. I'm not actually driving the car. It's just happening. And that's the perfect amount of.

activity that allows me to wander in my head because I'm doing something. So I'm kind of liberated to do that. But we're all different, interestingly, because when I'm having an activity that is where I need to put some force in, for example, you know, going to the gym, you're doing lots of that. Thank you for... Or going for a walk to do my 10,000 steps. For me, this is like a meditation in the earth.

activity itself i'm not capable of thinking about anything else but suzy when she goes on her 20 000 steps a day or in the gym she comes back with lots of stuff that she writes down yeah so we're all different true do you think the fear of failure being so

intense is because you saw your dad lose everything. My dad lost everything too, by the way. My dad was rich, then poor. Filed bankruptcy three times before he died. There wasn't a consistency there. You saw everything go away. So I can imagine that makes you feel like anything can go away at any moment. For sure. That is a scar. There was like a perfect storm because they tried to have me in a private school, in a French school in Vienna. So I saw the rich kids.

And you're not a poor kid in a poor environment where everything is pretty normal, but you're seeing the rich kids and you're seeing them going on the fancy holidays. I remember exactly that moment, Christmas holidays, last day of school. And there is this friends of mine that got into the car.

with one of the dads and they went off skiing, the three of them together. And I don't. The suffering of that very moment is still so much in me. Do you know what that fucking garage is all about? Is that I wanted the cool BMX bike. Kids had the cool BMX bike, the GT, the Haro, the Hutch, and I didn't. Compensation mechanism. Yeah, and I wanted that fucking bicycle, and this is the bicycle.

I'm still healing the wound of the bicycle. I know, but the problem is you get the bicycle and then it doesn't work. No, exactly. It doesn't work. It's the fantasy it will. Or you go skiing and it doesn't work. Then you're like, well, now what? Did it work for you? It 100% does for me. Wow. I'm jealous of that.

100% does for me. You're like, I'm fixed now. No, not completely fixed, but I know there was these things I wanted to take. There is this nice skiing place in Austria where everybody went and it was very expensive and it's actually a small village and there is... nothing particular, but

Having a place there was a life target and I have now. Actually, there's probably better places. Then also going through this car and bike motion. I remember my dad only had a very, very old BMW, 10 years old, and it was damaged, but he didn't have the money to actually... repair it and the friend's dad had i don't know if you remember mercedes amg 560 sec

Oh, baby. That's exactly down your line when I look at your garage. The problem with those cars is impossible to work on, but continue. I love them. That's Miami Vice. That's Miami Vice. Ground effects. Exactly. When I showed these cars to Susie or to my children. and say, that was my dream. They say, seriously? It looks awful. Or a Porsche Turbo. You know, the three liters, the early ones. How about a rough?

9-11. R-U-F-F. Roof. It's a German company. It wasn't a big thing back in the day. These tuners didn't exist in that form, but... Black 911 turbo, three liter, four gearbox, the Widowmaker. 930. 930, that was exciting. Yeah, slant nose. Oh, baby. I do think when you don't have a dad around for some of these pivotal rites of passage, you have to go get a lot of these exterior things to comfort yourself that you are becoming a man. Do you relate to any of that stuff? The masculinity portion?

No, the masculinity portion doesn't relate to me. When my father got ill, I had that feeling. I took so much responsibility on for my sister. I wanted to be an adult. I wanted to be in control of my life. I didn't want to be embarrassed from my parents anymore. And that attitude of being the man in the house happened when I was... So I never struggled with that. It was more about the things that I saw from parents of my friends that were successful.

This is what I wanted to achieve, like a Ferrari car collection, for example. Or one of my closest friends today, and I love him to bits, his dad was the president of the local football club. There was this famous sports show on Monday. evening which was called Sport am Montag which was Sport on Monday and it was prime time and only the best people were there and I remember him being there.

And I thought one day I would like to be in this sport show because that means success. And then these things happen and you realize they're so nice because you kind of say to yourself, I can't believe it. I'm there now. Yeah. Yeah. Full circle. Full circle. And for you, it works. For me, that works. Yeah. That's great. That is great. I think that's kind of rare. Is it? I think so.

And I don't know what part is American and what part is your culture and being European, but I don't know, America, you know, it's like. Do this, make this, be this, be special, be unique, be individual. And then you do those things and what you kind of feel like is, oh yeah, and all I've accomplished is I've kind of alienated myself from everyone. It doesn't feel as fun as I thought it was going to feel like. You start questioning.

the whole promise of it. But I'm delighted that's not happening for you. Maybe because, and you will think that's counterintuitive by being in Formula One. I have never felt, well, that's actually not true. I wanted to say I've never felt surpassing people.

But what I felt was anger against all the people that let my dad down. So at the beginning, it was like, I'm going to show you. And they were obviously a generation above me, but that was important. Really quick, who are you going to show? Was there a list of actual people or is this an idea?

of people no there was a list of actual people that didn't respect my father but that was the early years of my professional life when i started to think about it i'm actually trying to meet my own expectations and you know that sports show on Monday was my own expectations. I didn't want to be on telly because I wanted to show that I'm there. It was only for me and it is still today when I'm not having the success and not achieving the objectives that I set myself.

That is where I feel humiliated towards myself. Interestingly, not anybody else. Right. I'm in an absolute competition against myself, not a relative competition to others. I completely relate to that. Yeah, as I say, you shouldn't ever compare yourself to someone else. You should only compare yourself to previous versions of yourself. The things I didn't fantasize about. that I've gotten, because I've gotten a lot of stuff I wasn't even bold enough to fantasize about.

And those things are really fun because I didn't have a fantasy and an expectation of how I was going to feel and how much I was going to like myself or what kind of self-esteem I would have. I didn't have anything. built on top of this fantasy. So the things that have happened that were unexpected, now those I really can enjoy. I don't want to downplay how much joy I do get out of this crazy privileged existence I've had. And it's good because you're 50 years old and...

You're actively enjoying things, experiences, material things. And there is many people who don't. And for them, it's just the next thing and the next thing. And they come to the conclusion that it's actually not what they expected. And then you're in a vicious circle of if you can afford to buy more and more and more and seek other relationships, you know, suddenly.

your marriage is not good anymore because you've seen the next, I was about to say blonde, but obviously that's not what I meant. The next five foot tall Indian princess? Of course. No, I know what you mean. Next bombshell. Seriously. You're very attractive. Oh, thank you. Oh my God, I'm so jealous of you. That's so nice. But always the next thing, you know, the grass is always green on the other side and that's not what I have. Yeah.

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I'm Indra Varma, and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Daphne Park, the spy who killed the Prime Minister. As the Belgian Congo gains its independence, MI6 dispatches Officer Park to build a spy network. Its aim? To thwart a communist land grab. promote African democracy and prevent nuclear war. Along with field officer Larry Devlin, they work to be a part of what would be one of the darkest operations in MI6 and CIA history.

In order for Park to succeed, she needs to win the trust of Congo's first Prime Minister, Patrice Lumumba, or remove him. Follow The Spy Who on the Wondery app or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can binge the full season of The Spy Who Killed a Prime Minister early and ad-free with Wondery+.

I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, British Scandal. And in our latest series, we're heading to the 80s. And yes, we'll be talking about perms, shell suits and enormous mobile phones, but that's alongside a scandal. that is guaranteed to blow your mind. Yes, get ready for gold, greed and betrayal. We are telling the story of one of the biggest heists in this country's history. And how what started as a slick operation spiralled into...

Absolute chaos. We're going to be unravelling the true story behind the Brinks-Matt heist, the double crosses, murders and the global hunt for the missing gold. And the romancing. Oh, always the romancing, Matt. Turns out there's quite a lot in London's shady underworld.

To find out the full story and why it'll make you take a long, hard look at your gold jewellery, follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts. Or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus, on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we're looking at the life of the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill.

For many people in the UK, he's a national hero. For others, he's a symbol of racist imperialism. It's fair to say he is a complex and controversial character. So almost exactly 150 years since his birth. We are exploring parts of his story you might not be so familiar with. How does his legacy hold up today? What do you think, Afwa? He is worshipped. It provokes anger. I actually think it's going to be a really challenging and stimulating discussion for us to have.

I can't think of a figure who had more of a front row seat at so many different chapters of the making of the 20th century. So it's going to be fantastic. Follow Legacy now, wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free. on Wondery Plus. Now, I do have some questions about how you got to where you ended up. There's a couple of gaps in what I can learn about you that are curious to me. Like one is you go at 18 and you see Formula One or you go to some racing.

No, not Formula One. Okay, but you go to some racing event. And you go, I want to do this. Now, 18 is too late for you to do that. Much. We know this. You had to be karting at six. So... How on earth did you end up racing Formula Ford without the karting background? So I didn't have an interest for motorsport. I had an interest in road cars.

Because of my past, it was quite disappointing to find out that my first car, my mother bought it, obviously it didn't have any money, was a Volkswagen Beetle. It ended against a tree six months later and I wouldn't say that I was disappointed. You manifested that? I manifested that, yeah. Just enough horsepower to crash into a tree. Barely enough. So there is a famous road through the Viennese forest around the city.

which is called the Höhenstraße, and they had in the 50s, 60s, 70s a very famous race there because it's cobblestone. And when it's wet, that starts to be tricky. So that was my road. It's about, I would say, 10 kilometers, very twisty, very fast. And I raced with my friends there, with the Beetle. And one day in the rain, I woke up on a Saturday morning, thought it's raining, it's great, I'm going to...

take the Beetle onto that Hohenstrasse, that road, and bang, off I went against the tree. The steering wheel even broke. Oh my God. Wow. That was crazy stuff, which we did back in the day. Friend of the Porsche, and there was a straight with, I don't know, a kilometer. with a huge bump in the middle and each of us was trying with the others in the passenger seat.

of the maximum speed we could achieve before braking for the next corner. Oh my God. It's like 240 kilometers an hour. That's crazy. But back to your question. I just want you to know I've been in a lot of those passenger seats and I hate it.

Yeah, but as a kid, you almost don't realize the risk. You're in another zone. It's like you're talking about your daughter. You want her to ride a motocross bike rather than sitting on the back and crashing with somebody who wants to show off. A 16-year-old trying to impress her. Yeah, to be masculine.

Masculine, yes. And his masculinity journey. Exactly. For me, it was, I didn't have to spot on my radar. And then I visited a track in Germany, the Nürburgring. I've driven it, so fun. You have a record there? I have a record there, yeah. In a 911 RS. Yeah, it was the big fat 911. 2009. Yes, GT2 RS, whatever the racing version was, but the one with the most powerful engine, a naturally aspirated engine. Do you remember your time? It was a 703.

But the track was different because it wasn't the new asphalt, so it was much bumpier and riskier. And that record was, I think, seven. 05, but crazy dangerous. There's nothing like it. No, there's nothing like it. And I was already befriended with Niki Lauda, who had his crash in Formula One there. That's why he burned. And he said, why did he do this? He's so stupid, so dangerous. Nobody cares what you're doing.

I was in a bit of a midlife crisis. And so that was on a preparation lap. The car was already feeling old. The tires were falling apart. And then I said to myself, and that is the amateur approach. I'm going to give it one try whilst already knowing that the car had an issue. And at one try, I was up 15 seconds. So it would have been a 640 or 635. Whoa. Anything sub seven is outrageous. Today, a good time is around...

around 620 or so, but that was 15 years ago. And the track is a completely different one, as I said before. Parts that are flat today were never flat back in the day. So the car felt odd and I thought, I'm just going to finish the lap. And then I had a puncture. Oh, in the most dangerous part, you know, the foxhole where it's going down and there's a big compression to 89 kilometers an hour, which is how much? 210. It's like 175. Really? Only?

300 km is 180 miles an hour. 179. I got that pretty fucking close. Yeah, but you played it down. It's not 175. It was 170. I was off by four. Is it 179? Four by 175. I don't know what percentage I was off. That's less than one percent. Yeah, but is it 179 straight or is it...

Wow. Let's round out. Let's round out. 100 is important. You're right. It's 0.2 times it. So you're right. You're right. You're right. So 180. It's too fast with the puncture. Yes. Right rear puncture went off into the guardrail, went onto the roof. and didn't go into the forest, into the trees, which was lucky. And I slid 250 meters and stopped. Camera is still on.

I'm stopping the car. It was on fumes and I'm deplugging my radio and I'm getting out of the car and you think everything is normal. And then they found me behind. the guardrail with the helmet and the hands on, lying on my back like I was sleeping. And I have no recollection of that. Oh, really? So in the shock with the adrenaline, I got myself out of the car. No concussion. A massive concussion. So they found me there unconscious.

they put me in the ambulance and they were taking me to the local hospital there oxygen on and the worrying bit was that i had an ache in my spine and i started to feel tingling in my legs And I thought, I can't believe that. I mean, Nikki was right. Yeah. And I'm going into the hospital. They put me in an x-ray on MRI, pull me out. And there's a nurse. And I'm saying, can you just please tell me whether my spine is damaged? And she says, I'm not authorized to give.

you that information. That's not what you want to hear. Nope. That means I'm going to go get someone to tell you your spine is injured. Exactly. Yeah. And I'm still having the tingling, but obviously you then make it up also. Right now you're really feeling some tingles. Yeah, now you're feeling really feeling. Numbness. Go to move it. Oh my God, I can't move it. Yeah.

So the doctor comes and he said, you're fine with the spinal cord, but you have some fractures in your vertebrae, compression fractures. Whoa. I'm sorry to say, Mr. Wolf, but one of your eyes is tilting into the inside. What? I had a view deviation. So because of the concussion, you know, when the eye does this, how do you call it in English? Cross-eyed. Cross-eyed. It was a concussion. So they got me into the Frankfurt neurology. with a helicopter they checked me again there and said

That is worrying and we got to keep you here. And I said, no, no, no, I don't want to go to Vienna. A friend of mine is a neurologist. So they said, well, you can't go to Vienna. The road is too fast and the airplane you can fly because of the pressure. So the doctor that I had in Vienna jumped into a private.

Oh, wow. Picked me up and we flew 10,000 feet. Oh, so you didn't have to pressurize it. So I didn't have the pressure. Oh, wow. Came to Vienna and then that was the diagnosis. And I couldn't sleep on my back for two months because of the vertigo I got. Spinning like you're fully drunk.

I lost long pre-COVID smelling and tasting. The nerves were damaged. It came back, but everything tasted like cardboard. You were not with Susie yet. 2011, you got married? Yes. So this is two years before Susie. That's how I met.

I met her, the accident, actually, because she was on a fitness camp with all the other Mercedes drivers. You know, she was an official Mercedes driver in touring cars. She was also a development driver for Williams for F1. That was later. Yeah. Okay. But she was on a Mercedes fitness camp, and I was a sheriff.

I hold on the touring car team back in the day, but we didn't know each other. And there was a rumor between the drivers that Toto had a really bad accident. And they decided who would call me in a hospital and they decided Susie would call me. Okay, but you didn't know each other or you just in passing? In passing.

That's how we started. What did she say? Well, she said whether I was okay and she heard about the accident and we started talking and it was a half an hour phone call. Can I paint a picture of how perfectly programmed Susie was to meet Toto? So Susie's dad... Owned a motorcycle shop in Scotland. Okay. She's from Scotland. She's Scottish. Her mom came in to buy a motorcycle.

Presumably in the 60s or 50s or something early for a woman to walk in and buy a motorcycle. Yeah, she's cool. So then the owner fell in love with her. More of the 70s. She would be pretty upset if it was the 50s or 60s. Okay, so sorry. Sorry, Sally. You didn't mean it. I was selfishly putting her at our age. She's just not. But if your mom and dad are motorcyclists and the dad races and then you race all growing up, you're like, yeah, I recognize this. This is my dipshit dad.

I think I love him. Exactly. And you know, he raced in the Isle of Man. No. Motorbikes. No. Yeah, absolutely. He did? On like a two-stroke back in the day? I don't know, but it was the Isle of Man. Fuck that. And that's why they got the kids into karting, because they felt that two wheels were too dangerous. Oh, wowie. But, you know, Susie, karting champ, woman racer of the year multiple times, one of the only women to ever drive an F1 car, development driver at Williams. So cool.

Driven in practices at F1. She's a bad MF-er. So your kids, there's no question, but they have to try this. Well, we were just talking about that. None of that. For the elder ones, Benedict is 23. He studies in USC in Los Angeles. Oh, amazing. Oh, wait, your kid goes to school here? Yeah, my daughter also. Oh, we really should be friends then. We should be. We've got a great guest house. Okay. You saw the cars you can borrow.

I know you're only legally allowed to drive that E63 wagon, but that's fine. No, I drive all your vintage car. The truck would be exactly my car. Okay, great. That's exactly it. So the other ones weren't interested at all. I remember when Benedict was five or six. I took him to the local car track in Vienna and he said, I don't really want to do it. Can I go in the play park? And I thought it's just a matter of getting him into the car and then he will love it. So I said, do a few laps. He said.

Three laps. Okay, three laps. So I was thinking, I'm sure it's going to go well. That's two extra laps. He only needs one to fall in love. Exactly. He came in after three laps and he said, that's it. Can I go to the play park? And it was clear he had no appetite. Good for him. But the small one is, I have a seven-year-old and he's really into it. Okay. Yeah. So...

I had the same experience. I tell my daughter, she already rides a dirt bike. I say to her, look, I'm not pressuring you, but if you want to race karts, I'll race old man class. We have a tour bus. Let's do this. You and I will go to races. And she's like, all right, let me try it. I take her to K1. And she goes out in a group. It's under 12. And there's like five boys older than her. And they're way faster than her. And she gets a little intimidated.

And she comes off and she goes, I don't want to do this. And I go, okay. Because I'm trying to give her the childhood I was dreaming of. And you just have to let it go. Maybe it comes back. Well, now we're 11. We get into the situation you were in. So we'll resume the story. You're 18. You go to this thing. But one second for the 11-year-old. Susie and I are of the opinion that that can flip again. Carlos Sainz, the old man, told me that Carlos had an accident when he was

six or seven, they stopped racing because they all felt it was too dangerous. And a few years later, the son said, I want a go-kart. So I don't think that 11 per se is too late if a kid is really into it. True. They're more conscious. They are more able to learn. still building your synapses. So I think that still goes. But you can at least relate.

You go there, you got high hopes. This is going to be this wonderful thing we share. And they go, this isn't for me. This is your dream. And you go, okay. Now she's moved on to her mother's dream. She's doing musical theater. Now she's doing musical theater. I would cry at either. When I watch her sing, I cry.

If she was winning races, I would cry. You're cheering now for musical theater. And whatever they do, we start to cheer for it. You just want them to love something. I want them to love something. I don't care what it is. Just love something and chase it.

That's all I want for you. I want you to be on the chase. But maybe they're too young for loving something. You know, we're putting all this pressure on the young generation. You know, you've got to have a passion and you've got to have a real interest and you've got to perform in school. sports i let my kids be and they're looking at instagram and everybody's perfect everybody's a millionaire has a sensational body they're on a boat all the time yeah exactly yeah

And so they're thinking, I'm inadequate. I'm letting them be. And my son, you know, he's in his senior year. He's thinking about what to do next. And I'm taking all pressure off. I say, you don't need to have a passion at 23 because I didn't. The motor racing was gone by 23.

And I seriously didn't know what I was interested in apart from making money. Had you gone to college at all? Yeah, it was a dropout. When the racing ended, I also dropped out of college. I said, I'm going to start working now and I want to be the youngest guy working. And I didn't care what it was. There wasn't anything like that.

passion. One door opened, the other one closed and another one opened and another one opened. And I'm taking the pressure out by saying, don't look at me. This is my 52nd chapter. You're in the 23rd. I was more lost than you can imagine at your age. Relax, breathe. Well, then that's my next mystery. So you pivot again, you race for a while, and you're good.

You're not good enough to be an F1 and you're likely too big. As I tell everyone, the only reason I'm not racing for AMG is because I'm too tall. We would be the ones with the earrings and championships on our face. It's rare you hear a tall guy complain about being tall. Too tall, yeah. For us. We all try to be small. My shoulders are just too wide. Oh, no. But you pivot and you get into business. And as I understand it, as the law suggests.

You start raising money for startups or tech, internet, that's kind of newish. There's a lot of opportunities. And what you start doing is going to companies and saying, I will help raise money for you, but I want some equity. Exactly. Why the fuck did they trust you to do that? You didn't have any equity of your own to bring to the table, I can't imagine. So my friend and business partner since 30 years, Rene, was saying exactly that to me back in the day.

Why the fuck should they give you equity? You don't deserve it. And what do you know about IPOs? Right. So I still went there and for whatever reason convinced them and said, there is no downside for you. If I'm not raising the money for you. or we're not IPO-ing your company, then you're not giving any shares to me. You're like an agent, kind of. If it works out, give me 10%. Exactly. That was my selling story and it worked. Okay, have you started to acknowledge the gift you...

you and I were given. This has hit me over the last five years. As things have been explained to me and I've changed my opinions on things, I was brought home to a single wide trailer. A ton of violent stepdads, addiction all through the family.

It was a rough go. So when I heard white privilege, I was like, what privilege did I have? Sure, some white kids have a lot of privilege, but I didn't have any. I was stuck on that. And then I had this moment of clarity where I was like, well, I was a fully.

functioning addict for 10 years. I drove around the city all the time with Coke in my car. I was drunk half the time. I interacted with police and I went, oh, that's the privilege. If I were black, I would be in prison for the rest of my life. End of story. I would be shot. I didn't talk to police with the right amount of respect. You know, there's no way. And I was like, okay, yeah, I do have a ton of privilege. I've just now come to own the fact that being 6'2 is a lot of it.

I've directed movies. I've gone into studios and said, give me $30 million. You can trust me. I'll lead this group of 100 people into this end zone you believe I can do. And a lot of it is I'm just tall. It looks like confidence. Yes. So first of all, now we know each other for 45. minutes you have aura charisma you're convincing you're intelligent that are the usps or this is your character maybe it gives you credibility of being tall but i have seen pretty successful men that were

Tiny. Christian Horner. Yeah. He's more square. But I think he's laughing about that. I like Warner. I interviewed him. I had a good time. Well, let's not go too far, but I think he can laugh about it. So there is tiny men that I have met who were very powerful and successful. Look at Bernie Ecclestone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ones littered with tiny men who are powerful and successful.

The drivers. Yeah, many that are failed drivers and saw the humiliation of not being good enough. There's not many successful drivers that made a success out of a management career. Yeah. I think you're reducing yourself to your height or to your physical height. I think it's in the mix. I think it's one of the gifts I was given.

Well, I think it's made you feel confident. It's had that impact. And so then you exude confidence and that's compelling to people. Yeah, chicken or egg, I guess. Yeah, exactly. I will say with the privilege thing, though, I think privilege is...

Not the right word. I mean, it's the easy thing that's been spread around, but it's more benefit of the doubt. It's like white benefit of the doubt, really, is what it is. I'm going to assume this kid's not high on drugs. I think if you go back to a white trailer and you have abuse and... You had a rough upbringing and that is part of your trauma and your humiliation that shaped you. Addiction.

certainly is a self-destruction phenomenon in my opinion or because it's just fun. Have you had any pull towards that? What's your relationship with alcohol? Obviously everybody was into alcohol at a certain stage. That worked really well for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When it works, it's fun. Exactly. So I was never into drugs in my school. Everybody would smoke joints. I didn't smoke any cigarettes. Everybody smoked cigarettes as well. I felt that it...

Never worked. Obviously, you got munchkins and you were giggling a lot. But I felt it doesn't work for me. But there was an incident. We were in an apartment of a friend of mine. 16 years old. So the whole purpose of the Saturday nights was smoking a water pipe or whatever. So we did all of that, didn't give me a lot. And then I left the apartment and walked about 10 minutes to the subway station.

down in the subway station and you know there's these yellow lines where you wait for the metro to come. And I stood there, I realized...

I didn't have any shoes on. So I'm walking back into the apartment, ringing at the door, this stoned friend of mine opens the door and I'm saying, I forgot my shoes. And that made their... night they were laughing it off so it had an effect but I was too scared of the rest I was already mentally fragile and I was scared that it would leave me in a dark place that's why I never dived into it but we tried a lot

Oh, you know another reason we might not be seeing eye to eye on the height thing is yours came really late, didn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a big distinction. I've been this size since I was 12. Okay, no, with me it was catastrophic. You know, I was 180, which is six foot, and my weight was 100 pounds. Wow. So that was pretty bad. That was me in high school. We weren't very attractive for the girls. No, I had a huge nose, a terrible haircut. I was so skinny and tall. It was rough.

Same for me. So more humiliation. Do you identify with being handsome? Like when people tell you you're handsome, do you accept that that's reality? Or do you still think, nah, I think you're confused. I think you're confused. Isn't that wild? Yeah, me too. I'm like, no, no, I'm an ugly duckling from high school. No one liked me.

But that's maybe why you're working out, you're trying to compensate it because you're really not believing in that. Yeah, exactly. And then I don't want to look at myself too much because that is vain and narcissistic, but we still do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're humans. I look at you enough. I follow Susie's Instagram and she's really generous. There'll be pictures of you wakeboarding, pictures of you holding the kid over your head on the beach. She's helping us out. But she would never post like a... swim trunk.

photo for her that's ridiculous and i'm a grown-up man and i shouldn't do the instagram thing of erasing drivers showing off she's keeping you humble she does and you know we have fun at home when you're in front of the mirror and you're doing some stupid posing yeah and she says That's really turning me off. Don't do that. Yeah, she's direct. I'm glad you have her. That's good. We learned pretty early that our family life is only good if our marriage is good. So when you look at...

The way she talks about herself, number one is wife. Number two is being a mother. And that's very unusual. Yeah. And the career comes third. So she would say, I want to have my own career. But if I had to compromise on number one and number two. I wouldn't compromise. Nor I. Nor me. I wouldn't do it either. She's such a good manager or entrepreneur. I think she could do much more and she could base herself in London or Salk. And she says, I don't want it. And I'm saying to her, you know.

If you were to have a career in motorsport and you were conflicted with me, I would step out of an executive role. It's anyway a lot at the moment and become a dormant shareholder. But she says, let's look at the big picture here. I think we got to rely on.

You have to be realistic about who can do what. There's been moments in our marriage where we should prioritize her career. It's generating much more money. And then there's been times where mine's generating more money. So we got to prioritize mine. Absolutely.

And I was also put off, you know, when you're following this cliche of being with a model or... I'm embarrassed for those guys. Yeah, me too. I see them and I go, where's the personality? Where's the challenge? This is embarrassing for you. But I think you need to go through that. First of all, they're never yours alone because they seek recognition as well. If a girl stares at her own pictures on the computer, that's a warning sign for me. Staring too much. Yes, yes. There's a healthy version.

You say that all the time about not wanting models, but you did try it. Oh, yeah, yeah. I attempted to raise my own self-esteem through other women. And I. Didn't like myself anymore when I looked in their mirror and I was over. I was like, oh, this doesn't work. I can't absorb their high status. I'm trying to, but I can't. I'm not following that cliche. And when I see men like you say.

I said, what are you thinking? A friend of mine, he got together with this beautiful lady and he was very famous and she left him now. And Susie was very pragmatic to him. He said, what did you expect? Right, right, right. What did you think was at the end of this? Exactly. For people who don't know a lot about F1, and obviously this podcast is largely women and not F1 fans, although we've turned a lot of people into F1 through Danny Ricardo.

Yeah, we love Daniel. Daniel and I are really good friends and he's been on a bunch of times. I wear his merchandise. He brings me that stuff. It's great. Monica wears it too. Yeah, I love it. Super cool. He has a very great eye. He's a wonderful dude. Talk about charm.

oh yeah and he's always so positive yes how this ended is real shame how they didn't give him the platform because he's done so so well but i don't think it's the end of his career the style that he has with his fashion connection oh he's gonna be fine he's gonna be fine for sure so for people don't know

Formula One is 23 races, and it's all over the world, and not only is it all over the world, it is not planned with any seeming logic. So it's like you'll be in the Middle East one race, and then the very next race you're in Europe, then you're in the U.S., then you're in Asia.

seven, eight, nine months of the year, weekly adjusting your sleep schedule by 12 hours sometimes. I don't know how that's manageable. How many miles a year do you fly? I don't know miles, but it's about $600. How are you managing your sleep? What is your routine? I want to hear about how you exercise. You've got a gorgeous physique. Oh, it's gorgeous. No, it's gorgeous, especially considering your schedule. I've talked about it with my friend, Charlie, who owns a CrossFit gym. He is an Adon.

And we both go, the other route to go would be Toto, which is like, this guy's clearly an athlete. He's not bulky, but he's lean. It's a look. That's what Monica, that's what everyone likes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's preferred. This is for other guys. Yeah, that's a man to man thing. Yes, yes. This is still insecurities from junior high. Yeah, exactly. I think he has a more intellectual anger.

If you're not too bulky. Yeah. But you're not bulky either. What do you do for your physical fitness, for your diet? Anytime I learned something, we did the same thing. I loved it. One was... I eat the exact same meal every single day. But I want to hear about what you eat, how you deal with your sleep, and what's your exercise routine? And what is your kind of mental health approach?

to the highest pressure job someone could have. So let's start with the last one, because that's most important. I am more at risk of a bore out than a burnout. That sounds like stress is where I'm most comfortable, but it is. But unfortunately, it's only a coping mechanism. I would love to sit on a stool in a... coffee shop in Greece or Sicily and not do anything and read a newspaper but I can't. My mind is too busy. The more pressure I have the better I feel.

That's my real comfort zone. I had to take decisions at the age of eight. Yeah, right. I never think about it. I go in a restaurant and look at the menu. It takes 10 seconds. So I only wear the same clothes. Luis thinks about me. I'm the most boring fashion guy. Well, he's very fashionable. You guys are fun opposites. Yeah, it is. We are very fun opposites. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is fun. It's an odd couple. It's a great odd couple. Yeah, we are.

He hates everything I wear. He hates the most my shoes that are coming from a tailor in Vienna. He doesn't take any more clients and I'm showing them and he says, this is the... ugliest pair of shoes that I have ever seen. But that's part of simplification. I wear the same trousers, the same shoes in every color, blue, beige, gray suits. It's all the same. So I'm not thinking too much when I'm packing. But in terms of the mental health, I think as long...

As I have to solve problems, I'm really in a good space. When it's calm and comfortable, I can take it for 10 days. A holiday or so, I start to not feel well at all. It's not like I want to be busy, but it's like I'm going into a... darker place because it needs the balance. I realized we took a holiday in Sardinia, which is a beautiful place, for three days in July, mid-season. And I remember floating on my back in the sea in the azure water and I thought, I feel so great.

We went to the same place for three weeks holiday. Three weeks. I never felt good. It got worse and worse. I tell my wife, I'm like, I'll go anywhere. I'll do anything. But every other day I got to get in the car. on the island and go explore. I got to do something novel. I got to stimulate. I got to meet some people. I don't want to necessarily speak to people, but I want to be in the middle and look at them. Yes. A piazza in Italy? Yeah.

I can do that for seven hours for dinner. A few cappuccini. And look at them and think about who are they? What's their life? Is it as romantic as it looks? Yeah, exactly. I don't want to talk with them. Okay, I'll do the talking. When you guys go on your buddy travel. I'm listening. I think we're a good combo. So the mental health. When you're on the road and you are in the middle of the season, do you have a check?

I tried all sorts of meditations, transcendental meditation, Ayurvedic meditation, then with a mantra, mindfulness, breathing, Jacobson, all of that doesn't work for me because it's too calm. Trying to... Calm my mind doesn't work. I need the opposite. I need... activities that stress me. That's why racing a car is so fine because there's nothing else you can think about. I like going to the gym and go ballistic so I can't breathe anymore. I'm into freediving. Oh, you are? Yeah, I do a lot.

of that. Because you saw the deep blue, the Luc Besson movie as a kid? Yeah, Le Grand Bleu. The long version. Did you see the long version? Yes, of course. Jean Reno. Fantastic. So I do this. I got George and Louis into free driving also. Really? What's the farthest you've... 35. 35 meters. Meters. 115 feet. So I'm not using weight. It's just swimming down myself. And Netflix made quite a thing. There's an episode of George in Drive to Survive. So we went.

Free diving. They had a full camera crew, two boats, divers in the water, scuba divers to look at us and do all of the filming, mainly for George. So I'm the semi-pro and we're doing this first dive with the world champion. that is coaching us. And the first dive is an accommodation dive. So you go five, 10 meters, your body gets used to it. So the mind says, okay, we are here in apnoe mode. We need to hold the breath and manage our energy level. So I'm doing that.

accommodation diet 25 meters 75 feet and i'm going down at 10 meters and i feel so great so i'm thinking i'm gonna go all the way down it's easy i feel a little bit of a pressure in my right ear pang i do my eardrum First shitty dive, the whole Netflix thing is gone. You look like a chump. Like a chump. George does his three meters, seven meters. And by the end, he was at 25 as well.

That wasn't my greatest moment, but freediving is great because you can't think about anything else. Yeah, the exact same story, but a little different. They wanted to do a story on me for some TV show and they thought, oh, this is great. Benedict, my son. Oh, wonderful. Let's see what he's up to. Tell him you're in Los Feliz.

Hi, I'm in a podcast, really fun one. You want to speak to the guy? Ask him if he's heard of it, armchair expert. Armchair expert. He knows it. He looked at it because I said to him, can you check out what I should be doing? This is a good idea. You're in the podcast. Wow, Dax, you're getting everyone. Benedict?

Oh, I'm good. This is Dax. You're going to USC? Yeah. And what are you majoring in? In business. In business. You didn't get pulled towards film and television? I did not. I don't know if I like this. I don't know if that was the right move. Oh, boy. She's doing comps. What's your name? Hi, Rosie. We've got a whole plan laid out. Your dad's going to start spending a ton of time here in L.A. at my guest house. So obviously you guys will be in the mix quite a bit.

You're living downtown. Benedict, you're doing everything wrong. No, no. Let him be. You need to be in Los Feliz. You need to major in film directing. And you need to live in Los Feliz. And we got to get you straightened out. And I know we're running out of time. This is your senior year.

All right, I'm going to turn you over to your dad now. Your dad's getting frustrated because this is his time and not your time. Hey, nein, ich bin Konda in die Nähe vom Dachs. Wie viel kostet dein Pulli? Bye-bye. That's the one phrase Dax knows. What is the... How much does your shirt cost? Vivo costa dein Puli? Vivo costa dein Puli, yeah.

I'm sending them the address. Okay, great, great, great. Okay, you need to be stimulated. What about sleep? How on earth do you deal with that? Yeah, so we had a NASA. doctor that gave us sleep plans and say this is how you accommodate for jet lag because obviously astronauts in 24 hours I don't know how many times they have a sunset and a sunrise. Every hour and a half.

They're going 17,500 miles an hour around a 24,000 mile object. Yeah. So they need to sleep somehow. And the truth is our eyes react to... daylight so we were wearing shades when we took off even if it was day in the airplane we were eating breakfast at four o'clock in the afternoon because it was breakfast time in japan but now after many years in the sport i changed my thinking and what

i do and that is i just don't care you don't stress about it i don't stress about it i sleep wherever i can in the plane i sleep or i'm awake i'm not looking at the time zone of arrival i arrive and it's daylight or night and i try to sleep and if not i'm

Taking a little bit of a melatonin or we have also a sleeping pill. If you work the next day, not the heavy stuff and it's only fall asleep pill. It's not the one that puts you into coma. Right, right. It makes you get up and make a grilled cheese in the middle of the night. It's not ambient. And not, no. the subway with your shoes off yeah and when you're like and you can't take a second one of these yeah stay tuned for more armchair expert If you dare.

I'm Colin Murray. And I'm Ellis James. And if you thought we'd already covered the wildest sporting stories on everything to play for, well, think again. Yes, we're bringing you weekly bonus episodes where we dive into the sporting stories that really connect.

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I was in Japan with Susie and we were in this hotel in Tokyo and I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep. So I took half of a sleeping pill and she gets up and I said, why are you getting up in the middle of the night? And she says, it's nine o'clock in the morning. I just took a sleeping pill. She did all the sightseeing. I slept for the whole day. I sleep when I sleep. I'm awake when I'm awake. But I follow my nutrition discipline in a very, very strict way.

I know breakfast is two pieces of pumpernickel toast, extra crispy, tomato, cheese? No, tomato ham. Ham, ham, ham, ham. And an espresso and a sparkly water. I don't do it anymore. What don't you do? I don't do breakfast anymore. Oh, no. That's done. Yeah, that's done. I do a cappuccino.

No breakfast. No breakfast because I feel like that is useless calories. I'm not hungry anyway. The cappuccino is a little treat. It does me feel a little bit sick afterwards. I'm not hungry. The right amount of nausea. Exactly. And then I'm having lunch and dinner. And for lunch, wherever I am on the racetrack, I only eat the same. And that is chicken breast, some vegetable tomato, and I treat myself to half a glass of full sugar Coca-Cola. That's good for digestion.

Okay, half a glass of regular Coca-Cola. Yeah, not your half-pregnant diet Coke. Right, right, you're disgusted by that. You're smarter than Bill Gates and I, but continue. You got me on that one. Try to do lean protein, but then I can indulge as well. If I see something really nice on the menu or if the local food is marvelous, then I will have. Big plate of pasta when you're at Monza. Yeah, the pasta.

Do you drink wine? I don't drink wine. I don't drink beer because of the gluten. It doesn't do me any well. If I'm drinking alcohol, then it's full blast vodka. Aha. That's the Romanian in you. You don't drink huge amounts and after like 20 minutes you're already having fun. The liquid is not huge and you're not mixing. So I don't feel sick. I don't feel bad next day. Hungover. Nice. Okay, I have just a couple of remaining questions. These are just curiosities. March 15.

March 16, these are the names of your two companies. Are those people's birthdays? No, that was the day I set the company up, so I wasn't very creative. So I said, why don't we do the day-to-day?

Okay, and then just by coincidence in 2004, it happened to be March 16th. No, I took the next date. Okay, so it had a reason at the beginning and then it didn't have a reason at the end. Breakfast we talked about. Yeah, working out because you're a gym person. I'm not a cardio person. No, you're a cardio person. I hike that's the extent of my cardio.

I can't get on a treadmill. I can't jog. Cycling. Cycling. We're too tall for bicycles. We're looking like huge gorillas on this tiny little thing. Even me on the race motorcycle, I look ridiculous. People comment when I post pictures, I think I look so cool. And they're like, is that annoying?

normal-sized bike. Exactly. And we're not good with aerodynamics as well. So we have a deficit against everybody else. Yes. But under braking, it's good. If I sit up, I pull a lot of drag. Like Valentino Rossi, you put your leg out also to balance. Were you there the day that Valentino and Louis swapped? No, but I had to give permission. So I gave it and I think they both enjoyed it a lot. Louis is the annoying kid in school that does everything right and fast. He was quite good on the bike.

Yeah, so I tell you a story about biking. Secretly, they didn't tell me. They went testing in Jerez with my head of strategy, who is also a keen motorbike guy and one of the engineers. And I couldn't get hold of him for two days. And then I'm calling Luis, my engineer picks up and he says, it's all good. All is fine. We just finished biking and just whatever you hear, he's all fine. I said, what happened? Oh my God. He fell.

But he was four seconds off the MotoGP Pros only. No. It's unbelievable. The body feeling that he has is what makes him a champion. But in that dark, Valentino's my God. I mean, that is number one. People have Jordan. I have Valentino Rossi, the doctor, 46. He's everything. The spirit of him. He's so elegant. Everything's so great. He was not terribly far off Lewis in the car. I thought what he did in the car was.

Kind of mind-blowing. I think for motorbike guys, it's easier to drive a car fast than for car people. Because it's just so much more complicated with balance on the bike. I think the braking on a motorcycle takes some real work. But my favorite part of that doc is... Valentino Rossi. There's this great documentary where these two come together. They're both Monster Energy athletes, so I think it was sponsored by Monster. And Valentino gets to drive his F1 car.

slash Toto's F1 car. Oh, I see, I see, I see. And then Lewis rode Valentino's MotoGP bike, which is a fucking handful. This is like a 320-pound horsepower one. Goes much faster than a car, but doesn't brake because obviously you have no contact.

Oh, God. And the corner speed's lower. But yeah, they're going 225 miles an hour at every track. It's nuts. But anyways, Valentino Raza, he's got the cutest personality imaginable. And he is a Formula One nerd. He's been watching, and he loves Lewis, and he loves Bono. Lewis's race engineer who's always in his ear. So he's been watching for years and he's hearing Bono say to Lewis, push, push, push. So Valentino gets in the car and he goes, hello, Bono? And he goes, yes, Valentino. And he goes.

Will you tell it to me? A push, push, push. And Bono says push, push, push. And he's like, ah! He's been waiting his whole life for that. Yes, it was the purest moment. God, isn't it funny though? You can be the absolute best. at what they do. The top of their field. They're phenoms. And yet they want to be the best at something else. Like we are not satisfied as people. It is crazy. But they are foremost. Special breed also, never satisfied. Yes. I mean, I guess that's how you get to be.

Those people. I hope I'm not saying anything that would be important for him, intimate. He asked me once, you'd rather be successful or happy. We have talked about this too. i said what is it with you and he said successful you want to hear verbatim one of my questions to you yeah

Are there certain endeavors that are inherently antithetical to mental health? The goal of a healthy human should be to feel worthy of love and affection regardless of their status or accomplishments. But that simply cannot be the goal of a person pursuing victory or perfection.

How do we make peace with that? Your human goals are antithetical to almost your career goals. As a human, what we would strive for is that I'm worthy of love and affection just because I exist. But in racing and business. It's not that. That's not the rules of the game. So you're balancing what you want as a human and then also what you want is.

someone engaged in an endeavor. But there are people that are really happy with their lives and they don't thrive for being in some kind of record books. Whatever our KPIs are, our various KPIs, yours of the two of you will be very different in what you want to achieve to mind. Specifically. Was your answer happiness or was it success? Since a few years, they are converging. Before it was success only. Yeah. You're also 16 years older than Louis? 12.

He's my age. Well, he's two years older than you. He's 14 January. Ooh, a couple days later. Yeah, Capricorn. You know that. I'm not into births that you know. I forgot my wife. Good morning, Starks. Geburtstag. I forgot my wife's birthday. Oh, that's not a good one. So we were in a hotel in Stuttgart. We're coming down in the lobby. There is my team waiting for us and they're all, happy birthday, Susie. And I was like...

So everybody looked at me because they know I'm not good with these dates. Every day needs to be a birthday. Why do you need to celebrate that you're already older than you are? I couldn't agree more. I think it's embarrassing to have birthday parties. All of it's embarrassing. But I get that you're celebrating that you're still alive. Maybe that's the reason. She's looking at me and she laughs and said, I had it all prepared for the afternoon.

That's what you said. Wait till you see what's coming in noon. You're texting someone on your team. Help, help. No, I got a card. But she knows me. So we have a weird age gap of these 12 years. But the gap is more like not a dad and son. It's more like brothers. It's not father-son? No, no, no. We are much more peers, friends than father-son. We can vice versa play different roles if the other one...

needs the support or difficult periods? I don't want to ask you this question because I don't think you're going to like it, but it crossed my mind. Was there any part of you that was relieved that Louis decided to leave and that you never had to make that decision? Absolutely. You couldn't make that decision. I couldn't make the decision from a personal standpoint. We owe him so much. And I didn't want to do the decision as Mercedes, letting the greatest champion ever go.

It's so disrespectful. And maybe he felt that also. That's part of it. And he knew that Antonelli is in the pipeline. It was something that I almost had in the back of my mind that that would happen.

Yeah, I think it's heartbreaking, but I also think it's the best version of what could have happened. Yeah, it was a curveball thrown at us and it still feels weird that he's going to wear a Ferrari overall next year and drive the red car. It's just a bit surreal. But we had this 17-year-old in the...

pipeline i didn't want to miss out on him like i did with max back in the day i didn't have a car so that is all falling into place yeah and i can kind of get where he's coming from because we weren't successful our car was not quick enough certainly had a mega offer on the table Every Formula One driver wants to drive a Ferrari. I think that's it for me. Like as someone who loved someone, even if I wanted them in my life still, I would understand like, yeah.

That's what Schumacher did. That's what you do. I want the best for him, even though I'm going to aim to beat him next year. But I want the best for him also from a personal side. I had a little fantasy when he left that you were somehow going to get Adrian Newey and Max. Yeah. Me too. I also have that fantasy. So what can I say? You can't say shit. Yeah, I think on the engineering side.

I'm really happy where we are. We are not having the success on track that we would want to. We had three race victories this year, two unmarried. But I feel in a really happy space with James Ellison being our technical director. We are reorganizing the team with Hyatt. We have let some people go and on track.

Yours, Max, and I, we always had a correct relationship. It suffered a bit in 2021 because it got dirty from both sides. Also, it sucks you were on the inside of it, so it's not as pleasurable. On the outside, what a year. What a year. What a fucking year. And it's part of a great success we're having today. It was really dramatic. And I remember the topic that nobody wanted to touch on many Christmas tables was Trump, Brexit and Abu Dhabi 2021. Right.

I've been in many fights on my own. I have a single question about that event. Can we give some context for people who don't know? The most improbable thing happened, which is in 2021, Max and Lewis entered the final race tied at 230. 35.5 points Something like this. It's 0.5. Impulsive. 10 points. And a half point somehow. Add up the improbability that he has 2,500 employees making a car. Red Bull has 2,000 employees. You have all those variables, different designs, two different.

human beings. They're finishing every single qualifying within a hundredth of a second. There's too many variables. It's impossible. Now you add in through all this dramatic season, there were points taken away. There were laps given back. There was judgment calls. They land at 235.5. It's not possible. The race goes on. Max is not going to win. He is behind.

three cars that have been lapped. There's an accident. The race goes under a safety car, so everyone's bunched up. Now, here's my question. As I understand it, and I could be totally wrong, they unlap. Cars that have been passed. So the person between Max and Lewis, they're number one and two, but there's three cars in there, but they're in spots 18, 19, 20. So.

The rules, as I understand them, is that under a safety car, the cars in between are allowed to unlap themselves. So they're allowed to go out in front of the lead car and join the back of the pack where they belong. Oh, I see. Okay. But what's really weird is that they don't unlap them right away. That to me is like, this is the problem.

It's not like who did what. It's like they should have been unlapped right away. They weren't. So four laps goes by and then they make a decision with one lap left to let them unlap. Max is on brand new tires. Lewis is on. 13 lap old tires. The safety car pulls off and Max passes him within two turns and he wins the championship.

It would have been Lewis's eighth championship, which would have made him surpass Schumacher. The stakes could not have paused. I mean, the drama of it, it'll never get better. Now, my question, and when I've been in arguments with people, I'm like, are you saying that they don't unlock cars? Are you saying in that situation they shouldn't have? unlapped cars? The strict interpretation of the rules is you need to unlap the cars and make them join at the back. So take one box.

we win the championship, it's clear because there's not enough laps left and the race finishes under safety car. The second version is once you make the cars on lap, you need one more lap before green flag. We win the championship. The third one was more of an outlier against the rules. What we could understand is give it the last lap. So you have a green flag lap and not behind a safety car. Then Lewis would have won because there was a few cars in between.

Well, that's questionable. Three or four cars in between. I mean, Max potentially could have got by them. I don't know. But I, you know, was anyway not part of the rule. We couldn't have pitted for fresh tires because we were in the lead. We would have given up position. That's right. And then the race would have ended up on the yellow or safe.

the car so we would have lost the race so five laps to the end we are world champions there is no scenario you've won with one yeah one i can see in a garage already and then someone decides the rate the world championship should end with a lap. And what you say, unlapping those cards in the middle is unheard of. Both drivers were deserving champions because of the up and down during the season. And probably...

Both of them should have been world champions. I'll argue too, you had a better card than Red Bull that year. At the end, not the first half of the year. I think Luis was the stronger driver in the second half. Max was in the first half. And the same with the cars. They should have both had the trophy.

But on that day, in that race, the race was decided and it fell the other way. This is the most controversial thing in all of it. Wow. Probably in most sports. Wow. That was so clear that the referee decided to do something which was not in the rule.

Not even a judgment call, but just not in the rule book. But having said that, it was more like the madness of it. Yeah, the chaos and the confusion. Exactly. And I felt that the other side... and that's not max but you know there was not a one sentence in saying that was a

Difficult day for Mercedes. That could have gone either way. We got lucky. Yeah, they are both deserving champions. Today it went against Mercedes. It went against us before. There was not one word from Christian or the other team in acknowledging that. Yeah. Like, entitlement. I'm guessing, though, because it was so disputable, that to even say that sentence would have felt like it could have tipped it. I don't know.

We would have said it. Yeah, it would have been the right thing to do. There's humans at the end of all of this. Yeah, and I entered the sport. Through Drive to Survive. Did you? Yes. Really? Okay. I was like, this is boring. They don't pass each other. What is this racing? Who cares? And then when I learned what's happening technically, I was like, oh, this is way more in-depth and interesting than it seems on this.

surface and i think the drama helped the sport also drive to survive happened when everybody was at home and believe it or not our strongest growing demographic is a young female 15 to 24 year old yeah because there's all these hot boys

Driving around. Is that the reason? We don't know really why. It's part of it, for sure. It doesn't hurt. It's definitely part of it. Charles is a supermodel. Danny was the cutest guy in the world. Yeah, same. Louis is gorgeous. They're all gorgeous. There's only a couple duds in the whole group out of 20 guys. That's... Yeah.

The women do. They're like, that's my guy. That's my guy. There's something for everyone. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Also, that show is just so well done. They really get you invested. Now, that was one of my questions. I'm keeping you too long. Don't worry. We're on the phone for quite a while.

You're a very smart person. You're also very incentivized because you own a third of the team. You're experiencing this from a lot of different viewpoints. You're a team principal. You got to win. But you're also an owner. And so I think you naturally saw that when Liberty Media came in and bought this and they expressed this goal of making the entertainment more present.

And the sport, but bringing the entertainment up. I've heard you talk about it and you're like, initially we were like, that's a little scary. But I think you're a business owner and this worked. I mean, fuck. The first time I went to CODA, the race weekend was 120,000. And it was 440 last weekend. Single biggest event in the United States last year. Who would have ever thought that a Formula One race? It 4X'd. Yeah.

So you, at some point in the first year, Mercedes and Ferrari didn't participate in Drive to Survive. Oh, I remember that. It was a blessing in disguise for the sport because so many other personalities were featured. True. We wouldn't have had Danny. We wouldn't have had Gunter. We wouldn't have had...

Huge for Danny. Yeah, it was a blessing. We got to learn a lot about a lot of other drivers. But at some point, you're smart enough and incentivized enough that you go, okay, great. So I get it. This entertainment thing's kind of working. And now you two have to assume a character in this soap opera.

And I'm wondering, A, how easy that was for you to take on. I've been to races and been in the paddock and watched you walk around. You're a full-blown movie star at that race. You're on your scooter and people are excited. Having to be a character in the soap opera, how is that? So I think one of the features of myself and what I'm looking up to in other...

People is authenticity. We kind of feel when somebody is not authentic, you know, and even if you're intellectually not capable, you're not thinking about it. When you watch someone on telly or in a movie or you meet someone, instinctively you say, I don't like that person or I like the person. And for me, there's a lot of correlation.

with being authentic and I don't want to walk away from that. So whatever I do, whether the cameras or the microphone points to me, I'm trying to always be authentic and not act for the cameras. Super important. Yeah, that's hard though. It's super hard. It's tempting. It's right there. Yeah, that's why we didn't play it the first season with Ferrari. I didn't want all of my people to be distracted by a camera and then suddenly perform. Distracting. Yeah, of course. Camera points.

on you so i never do that but you understand that the show is so successful that there is a lot more visibility of yourself and formula one that has happened for me the kind of status in terms of media visibility happened very late in my life I was 45, 46. So I see it with a certain skepticism, surprise. Why would people wanting to take a selfie with me? And I look at the benefits. I could show you right now.

exchanges between me and Brad Pitt talking about you. Seriously. I'm going to take full credit for this in front of you. He and I love MotoGP. I watch Drive to Survive. I text him, watch this documentary. Text me when you've finished. I know it'll be within 24 hours. He texts me when 16 hours. This is incredible. I'm so in. Next is he befriends Lewis. I'm learning that he's going and hanging out with Lewis.

And then I said, yeah, but let's talk about Toto. And he said, listen, I have this text. This is going to kill you. Toto's also a great dancer. Where did he get? He was somewhere and he saw you dancing. He's like, you're not going to believe this. Toto's also a great dancer. I'm like, oh, fuck, this guy's got it all. Wow. Brad Pitt is completely enamored by you. That's a very weird turn of events at 45. Yeah, absolutely. So I generally am not.

starstruck and I admire people that are really good in what they do independently whether they are famous or not but there was this moment when they started the documentary they were interested in my role and I think Javier Bardem plays a little bit of a toto as a team owner and team principal. By the way, a super guy, curious, interested. We're talking about this and we are agreeing on dinner at our house in Oxford. It rings at the doorbell, red pick. walks.

into the house. Yeah. Oh my God. It fucks you up, right? Yeah. He's not human. He's like, it's a different thing. No, it's a deity. Yeah, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, George Clooney. I mean, there's not many of them, no? Yeah, exactly. But even in that group, it's Brad Pitt. Yeah, it's Brad Pitt and I was a mother.

moment where I thought we've come a long way that Brad Pitt is coming to the house. How did Susie handle Brad Pitt at dinner? Well, she obviously says to me that she likes me much more. She has to say that. Don't worry. Don't do it.

That was such a moment. But I'm looking at it, like I said, with a little bit of curiosity, why all of this is happening. And I haven't found many advantages of being on TV. I mean, you get a better table in a restaurant. But yeah, other than that, that's sort of where it ends. Yeah, because you need to have your own vanity under control. And I'm realizing that I like that. And then I try to dial myself back and say, that is just linked to the role.

A politician is recognized by everyone. The moment the politician is stopping the activity, nobody cares. And the same is in many other jobs. Your CEO of a company doesn't matter anymore. You stop as an actor or I stop in my role. That's gone. And I think you need to be prepared that if one day you step out of the hamster wheel, that this is going to stop. And that's why it shouldn't play a big importance to us. Well, this has been an insane pleasure. My very last thing is...

Monica has only liked a single car. I try to get her interested in cars and she does not care. She likes a single car. The Mercedes 300 SL. It's a beautiful car. Toto has one. You do? What color? So I sold all the other cars. You did? Yeah, I had to tick the boxes in terms of what I wanted to have and achieve. And then I sold them all. Yeah, they're stressful. Yeah, also I didn't feel like it was authentic anymore, me driving around in an old Ferrari.

Right. So I only kept the Mercedeses. And I have two of these, one Roadster convertible and one Gullwing. That's the one. Although you'd be happy in that convertible. He and Susie look so elegant. I feel like I'm watching like a 60s Italian film. That's a beautiful car. The Gullwing, you know, is great, but it's getting very hot in there. There's no air condition. The engine in the gear.

gearboxes right underneath of you. So in LA, it would be troublesome. I love the heat. I can take it. You love the heat. Yeah, it's in her jeans. I can really take it. So when you're next in Europe, tell us. We'll take you out in the gallery. Oh, I'll do it. I will do it. You bitch. That was my invite. That'd be like a Matt Damon invited. Oh, that'd be like if Matt Damon invited you to dinner and didn't bring me. Yeah, I wonder how that would feel.

You deserve this. Great ending. That's right. That was great. I tell you, too, we look a little bit like Frankensteins in the car if they're too tall, guys. So I'm taking the seating pillow out. So I'm not looking too stupid. Okay, okay. And then I fit under the steering wheel. So this was my very last one. So your wife is an incredible driver. I have to imagine she probably could turn better lap times than you at most places.

Yes. And I'm proud of that. Yeah, you should be. She was a professional driver. She says, what do you expect when we are getting this question asked? So we were carting in the past and she's always two seconds faster. And then I thought I'm going to trick her. Obviously I'm heavier. I put 25 kilograms of ballast in the car. Oh, great. So that's the wife of my children. They're maybe here. They're maybe here. Okay, great. We're landing the plane. So I put the weight in her cart. Two seconds.

She says the car is actually pretty good. Very stable. I got myself special qualifying tires. Red Vegas. Oh, wow. You went for it. Your finger sticks on them. Two seconds. Oh. Love this. Good for her. Yeah, she's really quick. Well, Toto, this has been as fucking fun as I could have ever imagined. For you, Monica, too. So...

It's just cub stuff. No, you're a star. We kept it pretty not technical. That was great. It's great. I saw Monica rolling her eyes a little bit. Oh, no, we're talking. I also want to throw this out here. I always roll. Before we sign off, you allowed a journalist to write a book.

about what you're going through right now, which is a lot. And it's called Inside Mercedes F1 Life in the Fast Lane. And you guys all participate. It's a very good book to learn exactly what's happening on that team. I was generally not a book fan because I get... asked quite regularly about a biography or autobiography and my answer is let's do that when I'm 80 because now people say I've been successful and let's write about it but what is if I continue to fail now so I don't want to

have it stop at 50 and then take a nosedive. Exactly. So let's write it when I'm 80. Let's make sure we get to the finish line. You already did though. Yeah. Or when I'm gone, then you can have a real summary. Right. He had the whole story. Exactly. I mean, we're certainly over halftime, both of us. And I hope so. We're over halftime. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that book is different and special because it gives an insight into how the team operates. It's not an ego story.

It is just the operation of the team. So I was a bit skeptical, but the journalist embedded himself really well. It is a little bit of a nerdy book for the operations of a Formula One team, but it seemed very interesting. That's cool. It's very interesting. It's very well written. And I recommend people who are interested at all.

to check that out inside Mercedes F1. It's been a blast. I hope we get to talk to you again and we will soon be on a twisty road in something. Yes, please. Oh, you guys will be first. Can't wait. All right. Be well. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes. Good morning. We were both feeling sweatery today. Yeah, it's officially festive time. How awake are you? Um, I'm 22%. 22. That's pretty low.

Yeah. I mean, I took a shower. Oh, good. Normally that wakes me up, but yeah, it's early for the listener. Yeah. It's nine. That doesn't feel that. That doesn't sound that early. But on a holiday. On a holiday. It feels absurd. Yeah. Yesterday was Thanksgiving. Yeah. In our universe right now. We were out and up late. Yeah, what time did you go to slumber? What time did I leave? Like 10?

I think I left around 10 and then I had a little work to do and then I had to work on today's gift guide. Oh, you had to do that at night. I had to do a lot at night. What time did you fall asleep? I probably... Fell asleep at like 1230. Oh, OK. Yeah. So not horrendous. No. I made a huge mistake yesterday. So when we were on the group.

chat, the girls group chat, figuring out timing for Thanksgiving. Yeah. Kristen wrote, come over around 12 and we'll eat around four. Yeah. And I read, I don't know what happened. I read that as. Come at four. Like I missed the 12 part. Oh, wow. So I thought it was arrival time was four, which I did kind of think was late. Yeah. I didn't love that choice. No, the day's over. Yeah, but I thought, oh, she just wants it.

to be fast so okay and then i really hold on so i too am in the intentions judging business but when I come up with an intention I do also evaluate so when you were like yeah she wants it over fast you're like that sounds right it's not that I was like oh it's bad she wants it over fast it was just like oh maybe I don't know. There's a million reasons that it could be. So I just.

I just didn't want to question it. So then I planned my whole day around a four o'clock. Oh, boy. Yeah. So what did that mean? I had to make two dishes. Right. Two beautiful dishes. Potatoes. Two sets of potatoes. sweet one mashed and I was editing an episode and I had a whole plan I was gonna like wake up leisurely and edit this episode yeah yeah

Make my thing. Sip up. Coffee drink. Laura texted and said, based on Cece, her baby's nap time, she said she'll probably be around Juan. And I was like, Juan, she's going to come three hours early? What's she thinking because of the baby? So then I scrolled up and I saw, and at this point it was 1130. Oh boy. Okay. So then I went into a panic.

And you were on a course of action at that point. Yeah, but I got there at 2.30. Which was very late from my perspective, but I didn't know about the— erroneous 4 p.m start so i was in a position of like everyone's coming at noon and then At noon, nobody comes. Oh, I hate when that happens. At one, nobody comes. And then I go to my insecure place of like, oh, wow, no one's coming to.

Even though you knew everyone was coming. And then I fast forward to whatever poor sucker does show up semi on time. They're going to be like, where is everybody? No one wanted to come to this party, I guess. That's funny because. I mean, I guess it's the same thing you're thinking about me reading Kristen's text, but that feels outrageous to me because the only people there were our friends.

So no one would ever, no one thinks like that when it's just the pod. If it was a random party, yes. It was starting to get a little embarrassing, though, that the kickoff time was noon and we didn't have anyone at 1, I don't know, 30? This is the problem with the girls only being on the text. Yeah, it's not great.

Yeah. And do you think most friend groups, it's like that? It's just the women. The women chitter-chattering. Yeah. Chatter-chatter-chatter. I do. I do. Yeah. I'm trying to make my friend group at home similar. Guide chains are very specific. I'm only on a few of them. I'm on like one with Wobby Wob for Formula One. Oh, nice. And that's just, you know, so-and-so's getting fired. Yeah, they're fucking, they're going to rule. You know, it's not like. With Matt and Charlie too?

Yeah, Matt, Charlie, Jethro, Wobb, myself. Who else is on at Wobb anymore? That's it. That's it. That's sweet. For all the boys that had to be in communication. Yeah, I love that. You're keeping it up. If you see something outrageous in the. F1 community, that's where you sound off. But there's very little. Logistics. What? Very little logistics happening in there. Correct. And this is maybe, again, I don't know if this is specific to me or this is.

Common gender wise, but there's a lot of things and you and you're not a fan of a lot of these methodologies I have. And I agree they're flawed, but for me, they're most efficient. Like I don't ever ask when there's 20 people over. I don't say.

Who's in the mood for sushi? It's like, I know this group. I know what people like. A bunch of food will arrive and no one will care. As long as there's food there. You make the decision for the group. Yeah, I don't do the hour and 20 minutes to order thing.

That's fine. There's two ways of being. Yeah. And yeah, exactly. And I'm not angry at the other approach other than when I'm hungry. I'm like, oh, my God, how long is it going to take everyone to decide on this? And then everyone's got anyways. So similarly, it's like here's a time to do a thing if you want to or not. There's never a bunch of haggling over it or fine tuning. Also a window that I would have never all blessings to my wife. That's confusing to me.

Starts at noon, dinner's at four. Well, that makes sense. It's too gray. Like, if I'm at home, like, what does that mean? When are people coming? Do people come two hours before dinner? No, for Thanksgiving. Like, I wouldn't have told them when dinner starts. I just said, be here at two.

No, she has to tell us because we're all cooking stuff. We have to know. I cooked the most in my house yesterday. What did you cook? Shitty biscuits. I made five trays of shitty biscuits. You did. Four pounds, biggest yield ever. That was, they were fantastic. How many do you eat? Like four probably. That's a good amount. Yeah. Yeah. You cook the most in your house.

But everyone was making a lot of things and you have to plan it time-wise because of oven times. Do you need to arrive with that hot? You have to know what time dinner is starting. Yeah. Okay. Great. I don't know. Four hours, take your pick, throw a dart at the board. Seems a little. And we got what we sowed, which is like you wandered in at 230. Someone was there at 145. Someone came with three. It's fine. It's all fine. Yeah, that's the way it's supposed to.

to be really. Yeah. I want to open the door like I'm in Sweden. Have you heard this joke about Swedish people? Like if you throw a party and you announce it to your coworkers that I'm having a party at 5 p.m. They say in Sweden, the doorbell will ring, and when you open the door, All 52 guests will be there at two minutes before. Yeah, they're all there. It's not like one person's early. The whole group will be there at the exact same time. Well, that's funny because.

On a previous Fightless Bird, we did talk about, like, arrival times and being late and parties. Uh-huh. Because David was acknowledging what it looks like in America. People arrive late. Whenever they're in the mood to get there. They give them a nice four-hour berth and just land somewhere. Think about any party, like a Halloween party. You don't go at the time.

That's my point entirely. Think about a Halloween evening party. There's so much anxiety. They said it starts at 8. No one's probably getting there at 8. You don't want to be the one person there. And then you're like, I guess that really means 10, 15, everyone, right? And you have all this anxiety and you can't plan it right. If it was just like, forget the eight.

Forget the early arrival. Let's go with when people are really going to come. Let's say this party starts at 930. But then people will come at 11. Well, I think everyone's just responding to this willy-nilly broad strokes. There's a four-hour window of arrival time. Yeah. Well, technically I was actually an hour and a half early. To dinner. Two and a half hours late to the hang time. Yeah. Yeah.

You're right. That was the pod, so I didn't get too insecure. But if that was like my birthday party. That's how we normally do. We just roll in and roll out. By 1.30, I would have canceled the birthday party. Like if it started at noon and at 1.30, it's still just my family sitting there. And then my anxiety of who's going to be the first one there to see that I'm a nerd, that no one came. I just cancel it. Were you sitting on the couch like? I try to make myself a little busy.

I'm going to go. I don't want to be sitting at the door when people walk in like, hi, and I'm on the couch in my Thanksgiving best. Anyways. Spectacular Thanksgiving. Beautiful Thanksgiving. Really another perfect Thanksgiving. Yeah. What were your highlights? I'm sure you can guess mine. I can guess yours. You played volleyball. Okay, that was your question. Christmas volleyball.

Thanksgiving. When I grew up, we went to a family reunion in Sturgis, Michigan at the LeBose and it was at the motel and there's a conference room and he had a big, huge, I don't know how many there were of us, 35, there's six kids and carrying kids. And then you played football in the field. It was cold as hell. All the uncles and stuff. Kind of fun. I can't.

The kids couldn't really play football. The adults are running around tearing hamstrings and stuff, and the kids are like, I'm open, you know. Yeah, that's so cute. They're just out there running around, I guess. Yeah, and acting like you're a part of it.

Yes, and then you're a big boy like your uncles throwing a football. So we didn't have a sport contingency out here. And I really like now that volleyball might be an option. Yeah. Yeah. My favorite was Secret Turkey. That's always so lovely. Secret Turkey. And.

Again, everyone already knows how it works. Lilia signs it. But I will say this year, I think people try to top themselves from the previous years. It's on a kind of an untenable course. It is. It's getting out of control. Yeah. It was like that present. Ryan made a knife. He forged a knife and he made the handle out of wood. Yeah.

I'm guilty of the thing I've yelled at you about. My do not disturb was not. And guess who's changed all her ways. Her do not disturb ways. Because you say one mean thing. One critical thing. Highlights of secret turkey. Mm-hmm. What do you think were? Oh God. I'm biased a little bit. I'm so impressed with Delta's hot air balloon baseball. What a present. She made such a cute one. 25 man hours at least. Yeah. These presents took forever. Yeah.

I want to talk about, you gave a advent calendar. I did. I made it. To Molly. No, to Amy. To Amy, correct. Yes, I made one. You said Molly is Amy. You gave it to Amy. So I bought these little boxes. You purchased those? I purchased the cardboard boxes. At a box store? Cardboard box store? Amazon. Oh, okay. Amazon Prime. Oh, you can order them. Yeah. They come in a sheet and you assemble them? Uh-huh. Oh, great. So I assembled all of them and then I made them into a Christmas tree shape.

Is that standard advent calendar? A lot of them are made into Christmas tree shapes. Not all. Some of them are rectangles. But I wanted to make it festive. And so I drew. On each one, I drew like the number and I drew all over each box. And after the third box, I thought. I am not going to make it. I can't do it. Well, great. I'm glad you brought this up. I wouldn't have said anything, but I looked at it and it was enormously impressive. It was huge. I want to say it was like 28 inches tall.

Yeah, it was huge. It didn't fit in a trash bag. 18 inches wide, maybe 24 inches wide. 24, let's say. The top boxes were like pictures and drawings. And then I noticed on the bottom, I just noticed it said like 21, 22, 23, 23. 22, 23. 24. That wasn't a cheat. That was, I knew you would think that. Oh my God. I don't know about Advent calendars. I actually anticipated.

Eric was going to say this out loud. Well, I didn't say anything, of course. I didn't want to humiliate anyone. But you just told me you started phoning it in and I thought, oh, that makes sense. I did not. You didn't even let me finish. Okay. The reason the bottom is just the bottom row 22, 23. 324 was out of brown marker and it just said it, but that's because that's the stump. Oh, that's the stump. The rest is the tree. The top had a star on it. Oh, beautiful.

It was hugely impressive. I don't know why you're upset. Because you're... Oh, my God. You're so gaslighting. You're like, I see you phoned it in. I don't know why you're upset about that. No, just at the end, it looked like at the end, you were like, that's enough. That was the stomp. Okay, so it was supposed to look like wood. Yeah. Okay. And the after.

the third one i thought i can't do this anymore this is this would be a five-day project and then i thought this is for amy she's an angel she's a true angel on earth okay she deserves this so It was a five-day project. Okay, I didn't listen to the end. Yeah, you didn't. I did not. So the bottom was a choice. You can see from the layperson at the end, it just said, oh, wow, it was written in black.

It wasn't black. It was brown and gold. That was gold too. Anyway, I glued all the boxes together. Did you use a hot glue gun? I had to. Or Elmer's glue. I tried Elmer's. It didn't work. I had to use Gorilla and Super. Okay. Okay. Did you get a bunch on your fingers? Yes. And then I... glued all of that to a piece of cardboard, and then I had to exacto knife around it. Oh, wow, for structural integrity. I bought an exacto knife. Oh, my God. Yeah. All ordered off of the internet?

No, some of them are Postmates. Did you go? Oh, Postmates. Okay. But you never went to an arts and crafts store. Did I go to Blick? No, but I use materials I have purchased from Blick before. Okay. All right. Anyway, it was really fun. And then I had to fill each box up. So all this was leading up. We got derailed by my observation and my apologies. But I'm dying to know what's inside. Yeah, everyone is. Because I've never owned an advent calendar. I've only seen them in Christmas Vacation.

Yeah. And there's chocolates inside usually? Normally. Uh-oh. But these are real treats. Are there any you can say that by the time this air show have opened those three days? Oh, okay. Amy, if you're listening, no, because this is hers. It goes all the way through December, her calendar. Amy is listening because she's, as I said, an angel. She listens to everything. So please cover your ears. Turn this off. Okay, right.

Fast forward. Well, Ryan too, because he's not a good secret keeper. Remember, he tells Amy, I don't want you to know about Cosby. What about Cosby? No, I don't want you to know. That's a real life thing, by the way. It is. Okay, so both of you fast forward a couple minutes. So yeah, there's like, well, she opened one. We let her open one. It was a sheep ornament. All right, beautiful ornament. I got her like a little lip.

Cute little like lipstick, some measuring spoons. Oh, fun. There's like 25 presents in there. Well, every other one is a real present. Okay. There's like a really cute wine stuffer. A chocolate? Two teas. Oh. Fancy teas. Drinking tea. Yeah, she has a tea drawer, so I figured she could make her tea drawer cute. That's great. How long do you think it took you to make this present?

It took a really long time, plus then the purchases, plus the, yeah, it was an adventure. My family had commandeered the entire dining room table, put plastic over it, and this was going on for three days. Yeah. And there were two full days where the three of them all sat at this table doing art projects, competing over the oils and the paint.

They all did paintings. There were a lot of meltdowns and blowups. So God bless. I stayed out of there. Yeah. I went up to the attic with my new light board to make my present for Matt. Yes. Which was a collage, I guess you'd call it. It was a collage. It was very, very, very good. Oh, thank you. You drew a lot of things that were Matt's favorite things.

Maple Leafs logo. He's very into Muay Thai kickboxing right now. So two Muay Thai fighters. Picture of him holding his baby that I got off of Instagram. And then above his head, a sim racing setup. Which he loves. And then scissors because he's a hairstylist. I know. It was very cute. And you framed it.

I think the sky's the limit with this light board. It's an enormous cheat, but as we talked about, you and I, there's a lot of fun in assembling and then interpreting what your collage is going to be. And now I have whole new fantasies about being able to use the... a light board to draw like a downtown cityscape and then put my weird characters in them so hybrid

I love that. Do a little photorealism and then my weird character. I like that. I've got a whole fantasy about my life with this light board. Wow. Wow. That's great. What a good hobby. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. It's pretty fun. Speaking of the light board. Uh-huh. On a previous fact check, I said I couldn't do a crow. But I got this light board and now I got a crow. Yes. And so now the holiday sweatshirt is complete. Yes. So they're going to go on sale.

Friday, December 6th. That is in two days at 9 a.m. Pacific. So if you're in New York, that's noon. Dingle's lunch break. If you're in the mountain areas, I don't know, maybe 11. Just check your time zones. Central. It's 10. I don't know. I'm having stress for everyone's time zones. I can't keep Mountain and Central straight. Which one's earlier than the other? But Pacific time, 9 a.m. And you go to armchairexpertpod.com.

Calm. It's a very cute sweatshirt. I really like it. Yeah. I think it turned out really, really cute. It did. Yeah. It did. It's really nice. Earmouse is the best part. And everyone's seen the mouse at this. Well, not everyone, but a lot of people have seen the mouse at this point because it has appeared on my gift guide. I read day one of the gift guide. Oh, you did. Okay. And what are you going to guess my favorite joke is in it?

There's one. Did you read Substack or did you read just Instagram? Oh, you read the whole thing? Yeah. The joke about Kristen on the phone? No. I don't remember. Blowing up all of her candles. Oh, yeah. I think some people might miss that. Maybe not. Maybe that's really obvious. But she only turned one. Yeah. Yeah, you blew out all of her candle. I did. That was really funny. Thanks. Okay, so Secret Turkey was an incredible success. Other call-out, again, Delta made a hot air balloon.

With like a structure and a floating balloon. It was incredible. Made the balloon a baseball. Ace loves baseball. Ballast on the side of the basket, like sandbags. It was so cute. Light fixture inside that. I guess replicated the fire going up. I don't know if that was just festive. Festive. How'd she buy a light thing? She bought it off Amazon. I think she went and watched a tutorial on how to make a hot air balloon.

That's so cool. Laura gave me a beautiful photorealistic. I like saying that word. Yeah. Charcoal drawing. of Little Mr. Texas. That's right. It should probably go in here. It should. Runner up. Yes. Runner up, Little Mr. Texas. If you missed that episode with Matthew McConaughey, that was the first time he was on.

So, you know, I have this very, very arm's distance relationship with him. We've done a few things together. And I'm considering, I think I want to take a picture of that and say I received this as a gift. How do you think that lands on him? I think that's a good idea, yeah. Okay. You never know if Steph's flattering or is bordering on weird and obsessed. Well, yeah, because I mean, I guess he'll be like for Thanksgiving. I mean, you might have to explain the whole thing. There's a lot of time.

pack if you if I let's just reverse this he sends me a picture that a family member a friend drew of me gave to him you'd love it I love it, right? As long as it was a flattering picture. You would love it. And I think he would love it. Yeah, we're both kind of similar in that way. What do we call that? Attention whores? I don't know. What is it? Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

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The clock is ticking. Find out more and secure your place now at crimecon.co.uk. Rob, put a box by my hand. Wait, what's going on? I don't know. I don't. You. Oh, my God. You have. There's gifts already? Wait. What? Sweet, stop. Oh, is that an Emily burger? Pretzel bun? What in the world? She made this? Oh, my photo realistic. Celebs on sandwiches. This is so flattering. Can I get a better look at it? And it's an Emily burger? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. How do they find the...

You told him that, right? Yeah, that was perfect. You know what's interesting? What do you think I'm going to say about this rendition of you? That my mouth looks big? I don't really ever think you look like your mom. But in this rendition, you look a bit like your mom. I could see that. I actually think it's pretty good. It's outrageously good. Like accurate. Somehow a bit of Nermy is in it more than normal.

I mean, I look like her. Wow. This is so flattering. Celebs on sandwiches. This is a big moment. I... I mean, I've got gifted this a few times to people. It was on my, I think, original gift guide, Celebs on Sandwiches, my original. Oh, gee, original guide. Wow, how sweet. Okay, well, that's really flattering. Thank you so much on sandwiches. You know what's going to be weird? Okay, so Kristen had you. Yeah, she did.

And she did this beautiful painting. She did. By hand of you. It's incredible. It's gorgeous. And all kinds of positive affirmations written along it. Yeah, it was beautiful. But I am starting to think. Like, you have an inordinate amount of photos and paintings of yourself now for your house. I think this should live here. Okay. With yours. Yeah, mine's right behind your head, so maybe yours should be behind my head. I don't know how that'll work.

All to say you have quite an interesting bank of art now you've accumulated. And I just wonder, like, on a first date when a guy goes into your house. And there's like a ton of paintings of yourself. I think it's fine. It's fine, right? It'll be seen as playful. I have a lot of art. Yeah. So it's not. It'll get lost. It's not that the only art I have. We have a whole wall that's just you.

Like you did. When I was, yeah, 20 years ago? Yeah, when you lived alone. Oh, boy, I didn't know what to do. I just turned up. Photos from movie stills that they send you. That's rough. It's okay. It's not us. It's really. It happened. I know. I didn't know what to do. I know. I feel like you're projecting a little bit of your own. Probably my own embarrassment from past. This is going to live here. I guess we could have unlimited pictures of ourselves here. How sweet.

Yeah, that's really special. And on an Emily burger, pretty jealous about the food item. I mean, I can't complain because I've got a Coney dog from Detroit, which is great. But boy, that's. It's really nice. Okay, well. Yeah, Thanksgiving was a big hit. I'm really thankful to our arm cherry. I mean, Thanksgiving is in the past now, but I'm still thankful to our listeners, our beautiful arm cherries. Me too, me too. We're so lucky.

And this is for Toto. I want to say there's something we earmarked. You wanted to talk about Max Verstappen. Oh, yeah. Thank you. And I told you to wait till this week because Toto. Well, I just simply want to say he won his fourth title in a row. It's been a really dicey year for him. Red Bull's finishing third or fourth in the Constructors' Championship, so their car is not by any stretch the best.

Yet he still managed to win. That's crazy. A lot of it because of this impossible rain race he had two races ago in Brazil, which when they make the documentary like Senna about him in 20 years. This race is going to be a good 15 minutes of it. Started in 17th in the rain, finished first by 20 seconds, passed 11 people in the first 11 lamps. Drive of his life. Wow. Incredible year.

Oh, so cool. Yeah. Congratulations to Max. Congratulations to Toto for being. Well, Toto won. Toto, which Mercedes has been struggling so bad. Vegas, they came in first and second. Nice. So this is good timing. Also, I love Toto. Absolutely loved him. He was so much more playful than I anticipated. He's a rascal. That was a reveal. And I enjoyed him so much.

So now I'm for team, because now that Danny isn't racing, I don't have anyone to root for. So now I root for Mercedes because of Toto. Okay, great. That's great. So I'm going to buy a hat. It also makes sense. It's definitely the team you would have wanted to support anyways. Yeah. It's the classiest team on the grid. Yeah. You wouldn't want to support an energy drink. No, I don't. Okay. Now, some facts. He brought up Nikki.

Lauda? Yes. It's a hard word to say, or a hard name to pronounce, Lauda. L-A-U-D-E? D-A. It's spelled correctly. It's just like, it seems like you're... being pretentious, but you're not. Niki Lauda. Right. Niki Lauda. I think that's what you're supposed to say. Niki Lauda. Okay. He is Austrian. Yeah. That's why it's a Lauda. Niki Lauda. I love Niki.

Is a mentor, Lauda. Okay. Oh, how about this? I'm going to ask your name. Okay. Oh, boy, how do I do this? Okay. I'm going to ask your name, and you're going to say Nikki Lauda. Okay. What's your name? Nikki Lauda. What is your name? Nikki. Because Lauda sounds like louder. It's pretty good. One more time. No, we already did. But maybe it'll be fun a second. What's your name? Nikki Lauda. What is your name?

It wasn't better the second time. It was great the first time. Yeah, my timing got worse. Oh, my God. Okay. Now. He competed in Formula One from 1971 to 1979 and from 1982 to 1985. He won three Formula One Drivers Championship titles and at the time of his retirement held the record for most podium finishes, 54. He remains the only driver to have won a World Drivers' Championship with both Ferrari and McLaren and won 25 Grand Prixs across 13 seasons. And was horribly burnt in a mid-career crash.

And kept at it. It's amazing. Didn't care. Yeah. He's passed. He passed in 2019. He died in his sleep at 70 where he had been undergoing kidney dialysis. He had experienced a period of ill health exacerbated by his lung injuries from the 1976 accident. He had a double lug transplant the previous year and kidney.

transplants in 97 and 2015. His body really went through it. Yeah. Double lung and double kidney. Now we're getting, we're now we're like, we're 20% through all the organs being replaced. Did you just kiss your hand? Did I what? Did you just kiss your hand? Kiss my hand. No, I just went like that. Oh. I always, I neurotically make sure the corners of my mouth, that's a rough one for me. When you see people with that? Yeah, a bunch of paste.

in there i can't now you don't you don't have it and you don't ever have it okay yeah but I know. I know what you mean. When someone's talking with a really sticky mouth, that to me, I'd rather smell something. And I already said smells are my worst. You'd rather smell something? I can't deal. If I'm watching like a TED talk and someone's mouth gets really, really dry and starts doing that.

I'm like, fuck, I can't listen to it. Because even if I look away, I can hear it. I don't have misophonia, but I do just in that. Do you understand that? I do. I do. It's not. Well, it's funny to me that you'd rather smell it because I think what's gross is I do think it has a smell. Yeah. It's just so. Sticky. Yeah. All right. So he was 70, but he lived a life doing what he loved. Oh, when I thought you were kissing, I thought you were giving him like. Oh, a send off. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Have you been jealous in movies when you watch the cat? What is it? Genoflect? Is that what it's called? Genoflect? You touch your forehead and your sternum and then your both sides. You do the cross. Yeah. I like that pageantry. I do too. Yeah. But I feel really, can you knock on wood? Because I feel like we shouldn't have just done that a few times. Oh, and that brings me to one thing that we left out that we need to address. Definitely the best secret turkey of the night.

was Eric took 30 pounds of candy and somehow made a painting of Lauren Matt's baby in candy. Yeah. He made a portrait of Cece out of candy. And it was at both times very good. It was. And it was. Absolutely terrifying. It was one of the most horrific photos. It looked like the most evil baby in the world. It looked like Michael Myers. Michael Myers. It looked like the baby was wearing a hockey mask, a goalie's mask. Because he used white saltwater taffy for the face. Yes.

And it was insane looking. And there was hair. But there was also a resemblance to her. I know. It was pretty good. Back to Knock on Wood, I was like, that feels like a curse. You thought it was a bad omen. I thought it was a curse. No, it wasn't. Like akin to a voodoo doll. I know, but it wasn't. It was a sweet portrait. I think that needs to be destroyed. No!

No, it was a sweet portrait made of candy by Eric. And he put a lot of time into it. And the eyes are just black. The person has to curse it. Eric didn't curse it. That's how he doesn't know his powers as well as he should, though. He might accidentally curse. OK. OK. Speaking of. Detroit versus Austria homicides. The city, city of Detroit finished 2023 with 252 homicides, which is the fewest recorded since 1966. We like that.

Like that trajectory. Great trajectory. Now, there isn't any information about Austria in 2023, but there is 2017. There probably hasn't been a MERS since 17. Exactly. There were 54 intentional homicides. in Austria. In the whole country. In the whole country in 2017. Although now I'm looking at the word intentional. Well, we wouldn't count vehicular homicide. What about if you're shooting and hunting?

If you're hunting in Detroit and you. Not a lot of. I know. But that would count if you accidentally killed someone. Well, no, because that wouldn't be intentional. It would be accidental. No, I know, but. I'm saying the Detroit one doesn't say intentional. So maybe they're including accidentals. Maybe. Isle of Man. Really quick. What's the population of Australia?

You mean Austria? I mean Austria. 9.13 million. 9.13. That's small. So about 10 times the size of Detroit. Detroit's under a million people. Really? Yes. 10x the people. And one-fifth the murders. Yeah, 630,000 in Detroit. Oh, wow. So we could say that's actually a 50X. All right. Okay. Isle of Man is a self-governing British crown dependency in the Irish Sea between England and Ireland. And then, yes, it has this big race that is a big deal.

annual cross-country motorcycle race. They race around the island. It's the most terrifying thing. It is, in all of motorsports, the absolute pinnacle of craziness. It's the Mount Everest of motorsports. Well, that's it for Toto. He was lovely. And I really, really enjoyed him. OK, and really quick. This should have been said at the beginning, but now we're here at the end. We are here early on this day because this is.

Among your most special days of the year. Yes. You and Kelly are going Black Friday sales shopping, but at places without Black Friday sales. Well. Which is really incredible. Sometimes they have like 20% offs in certain. We go to Brown Country Mart and it's very, very, very fun. And I'm so excited to go do that with her. And how many hours will you spend there?

Just a few. And then we'll come back and then we're going to go to a rolling greens, the plant store and get some Christmassy items too. Fun. What time will you start drinking at the Mart? Right away when you get there? Mimosas? No, no. We don't always drink. Oh, you don't? No. We'll probably get coffee and then we get lunch. So when we get lunch, sometimes there's wine at lunch. But it's not like we're not like carrying around flasks. Oh, you're not? No flasks? No. No wine silks? No.

But I'm excited for that. And then tomorrow is pig day. I get my Christmas tree. Yeah, it's a very busy three days. It's my favorite stretch of the year. Yeah. I'm excited. And it's sort of a ding, ding, ding because it's like F1. Oh. F1 race is kind of like this stretch of the year. Final lap. Oh, okay, okay. Also, on my gift guide that I put out today, I included an F1 coffee table book. I saw it and it was titled.

F1 The Impossible something? No, no, the actual. The Little Prince. The Little Prince. I thought this was very playful and fun. All of them, each gift guide this year, there are five of them. Are book themed. Correct. Yeah, the first one was about her. No, the first one was The Time Traveler's Wife. Yeah, wife. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Then it was Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, my favorite book.

Those are more mundane items. Uh-huh. Then it was— What's Toronto Tomorrow about? Well, it's about this— these gamers, but the title to me represents like, it's just day after day after day. Okay. So it's mundane items. Then it was for Little Fires Everywhere. That was a candle theme. Yes. And today was. That's another good book, too. Tomorrow. Do you want to hear Lord of the Rings? Oh, wow. Oh, this is this might be your peak.

creative endeavor thus far. I don't know. Can I throw a book out as a challenge and then you got to come up with gifts that. Next year. Oh, okay. I was only five days. Well, sure. Go ahead. Let's see. Of mice and men. It would be armchair themed. Oh. And it would have our holidays. Because of mice and men. So it would have our holiday sweater on it. It would have celebs on sandwiches. Okay, this is great.

Ember mugs. It would have ember mugs. Budonaki mugs. I almost put salty seadog mugs, but they're sold out and it felt un... Felt a little. Well, it's like a waste. No one can get it. I did put a candle on that's always sold out too, but I had to. Best boy statues. What if you're just putting stuff in here for sale on your. And one of the gifts for that will also be back's cashmere sweater in. That's a long game. It's like they sign up.

And they get it in 50 years. So I did it. And you get updates. Like once a year, you get a photo of how big your sample. It is getting smaller. I know. You need to add some. Yeah, well, we got a crop due. Okay, great. Okay, well, holidays are upon us. I'm so happy. Thanksgiving was a blast and now onward and upward onto Christmas. Yay. Let's go. Pedal to the metal. I love you. Love you.

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Hello, ladies and jerbs, boys and girls. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guest.

like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out.

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