Lauren Graham Returns

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. We have my sister here today. You do. Not Carly. Nope. But my other sister, Lauren Graham. Yeah. Ah, I love her.

We love having a parenthood in on. Lauren Graham, actor, producer, bestselling author. So impressive. Gilmore Girls, Parenthood, Bad Santa, Evan Almighty, Because I Said So. She has a new show out right now on Tubi. Yep. Free. We love free. We learned about Tubi in this episode. We did, yeah. The show is called The Z Suite.

which is a comedy exploring the tension between the generations, which is kind of the topic of the day on the show. We're doing a lot of generational stuff. You're right. This whole week is generation, really. Wow. Wow. God, I love her. Most stunning eyes in the biz. She's so fun and so smart. Very smart. Yeah. It's also smart week. My God. I know. We didn't even mean to. This is all accidental. Please enjoy my sweet, sweet sister, Lauren Graham. This episode is brought to you by Audible.

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So you are two months in. There's been 850 people since you. Are we on? Oh yeah, ABR. We're always on. ABR, go ahead. Tell me how it reminds you of Parenthood. I remember there were issues because Parenthood was shot very kind of freestyle. Economically. Sure, sure, sure. And some would say proscenium. We're like, we're doing like a school play.

You never knew where the cameras were. But I remember one day, this was not your request. It's just something that happened. Suddenly there's a bounce board. for Dax and I remember everyone kind of being like why does he get a bounce I don't get anything we're lighting us with a flashlight and Dax got some special here's what I told myself I didn't request that no I looked so bad on the monitor I was the only one

like we gotta like that nose differently when someone puts a bounce board only under your face you're like oh fuck I am the ugliest member of this that's insane remember the day that I was driving by and I thought you were Brad Pitt oh I will never ever forget Forget it. You know, I went back and listened, actually, to your episode because it was seven years ago. Oh, my God.

Crazy. Wow. So I'm going back thinking this is going to be rough. This is going to be month two. But I'm going to tell you what, this is one of the first ones that I've gone back to that I totally liked it. Really? Yes. Why do you think that is? I think because...

I was panicked that I had to guide the thing somewhere at the beginning or that I had to manage what was happening. But you and I have such an effortless rapport that I was just really relaxed. I still interrupted too much. It's not great. but it's better than the other ones. Not to turn this into my interview of you guys, but what has changed for you? Has it just evolved into now this is something that is better? That's a really long time to have any gig.

and you've spoken to so many people. I think... It's like acting at the beginning. I was so self-conscious and I stand where like I used to look at the lens on without a paddle. They had to rotoscope my eyes a bunch of times. I like look right into the fucking camera because I didn't know better. But by parenthood, you're just kind of existing. But that.

Happened in this job, too. Whereas like at the beginning, I had a lot of fear of am I doing a good job and how do you conduct an interview and all these kind of things. And then just over time, I think I don't have any real fear around it at all. But also, it's so successful. Doesn't that change?

how you start your day? That's changed a lot of things for us, I think. The success of it. I think it's made the pressure a little more. The more we sign deals and start doing those things, then it's like, we gotta have big numbers. It almost... took away the thing that we started with, which is like, let's just chit chat. Yeah, the experience of trying to do good and trying to be in the top versus trying to stay in the top is a completely different pressure. It really is. And I don't like that.

not why we did it but then you can't not start thinking like well I certainly don't want to watch us just decline over the next five years I'd like to stay today's the day today's the day starts no parenthood fans are so excited right now You're new to Instagram, right? I just joined Instagram. Congratulations. It'll be a year around my birthday. Well, comments, you learn things that I wouldn't otherwise have known. So I'm very aware that Parenthood is now back on Netflix. and in Canada.

Oh, so there are a lot of Canadians right now that are tickled pink. Oh, great. I just spent a bunch of months in Toronto and it was just so nice. And I'm not just saying that to pander to the Canadian fans. No, it's a legit great city. It's a great. city but it's also a great country and it was a relief to not be in a lot of dialogue about what's going to become of us and just like the shopping's great the restaurants were great it was really fun

It's the most multicultural place on the planet. Selfishly, that just makes the food really good. When you're there for work, our big thing would be to have like a Saturday dinner and where are we going to go? And we just had some incredible. food. A bevy of offerings. Yes, yes. But back to you. Yes. I want to tell you because right around that time you came over and asked May and I about

doing a podcast. That's right. I pitched you. Yes, which I didn't understand. There are many things I feel partially because I wasn't on things like Instagram. I am often behind what is happening in our business. I can remember on parenthood. saying to me I've just really stressed out about social media. And I said, what's that? I'm jealous of you. Yeah. Well, that's changed. I can remember a time when I thought that sitting and watching something on TV and then also.

Having your phone was just like a cracked thing to do. And now I sort of do that. But we tried. Years later, you're doing your own talk show. And I guess the way my brain works, because I love talk shows. And also we're very different people, May and I, in terms of how we approach.

Approach things. She's more fluid and fun. Jazz. She's jazz. And you're classical. And I'm Sinatra? Okay, great. Yeah, that's nice. I want segments. I want standards. I want a chorus, and then I want a refrain. With a groovy underbelly. Yeah, you know, you riff. within it but it's hard how many did you do we did essentially a pilot because my pitch to you I remember what was it I wanted you guys to have basically like a homewares type podcast because you're so into decor and building

And she's got a real eye for fashion. Over the years, people have asked me, shockingly, for my advice in this space. And my thing is, literally pay attention. What do you talk about in your free time endlessly? I talk about trauma endlessly. And then that's kind of what the show ended up being.

So I've been around you guys. You guys are horny for all this neat stuff. Truly invigorated by aesthetic. That's a fantastic idea. Ours was more, this is one of my best friends and we are 20 years apart. Yeah. The concept was how do we come at things differently, but on the same subject. You ran out of material. What I now think about, but there's no need in this space. I have realized I read more than a lot of people and I talk.

about what I'm reading. Yeah, you were on a morning show and the co-host handed you three books. That's how known you are for being an avid reader. Spoiler alert, I had read them all. Wow. You played it off like they were all novel and new. I was so panicked she was like here's this beautiful gift and I was like I

I've already given this to someone else because I read it all. But it was Jenna Bush. And those are her picks. And I read them partially because she picked them. And so I am influenced as well in that space. So you'll follow people's book lists. Who do you follow? I don't even follow in the social media.

sense, but were you worried about your breath just then? Nicotine. Oh. Also, your eyes look so beautiful. You wouldn't forget these are blue, right? Yeah, those are blue. Monica's a hard time remembering people's eye color, but yours are memorable. Well, so are yours. So we're on the nicotine still. I didn't...

No, it came in a spray. Yes, this is the purest delivery system possible. Not the gum? Well, I have the mint and the lozenge. You did used to do the gum, though, remember? No, I never was really into the gum. I remember you chewing the gum. You remember these? I've been on these for 20 years.

Right. I dipped for a while, but I'm a year and a month off of that. So just Kristen on the gum? She was on the gum. Yeah, you should always say, give me a two. Oh, yeah. She loves her nicotine. She's on the spray. We're a nicotine family. That seems off-brand for her. Yeah, she has some.

Things like that. Yeah. Interesting. Pop-outs. See if you'll understand this wardrobe choice. It's been a long time since I wore this shirt. Is this Friday Night Lights? The thing I own that has the most connective tissue to parenthood. No, we at the mug. Is it our football team?

FNL, Friday Night Lights. I said FNL. Yeah, yeah. Then I thought I was missing a parenthood reference. Well, this is the closest I have. Oh, yeah, yeah. Knowing you're coming, I'm like, I want to do something parenthood-y, but I don't own anything parenthood-y, but I own this, which is connected. I don't know if I...

I own anything parenthood-y either. Did you take any props or anything? Like I took the mugs, I took the lunch and I signed it. We had the mugs for a while. Yeah, I maybe don't have this anymore. When I moved- You were Marie Kondo. Which I kind of am always anyway. I feel-

It's an illusion, but that I will finally one day reach the point where my stuff is only what I need and nothing else. And it won't bring anything in. But then you look at the jeans collection and it's like, can't stop. It's hard.

How many pair of jeans do you think you have? You want Monica to go to first so you don't feel as bad? I have a lot of jeans. I got rid of a bunch recently, too. I heard a new rule, two out, one in. So if you buy something, you have to get rid of two. I'm working on that. How many do you have? Do you fold them?

So they hang. Okay. She has about 16. What are they called? Armoires. Armoires. Okay. In her one bedroom apartment. You have a few armoires. Her entire apartment is armoires. That's too many armoires. I know, but the closet's too small. Yeah. So I had to make more space for...

said jeans. Yeah. have 20 pairs I probably have more than that what I got rid of which is bad I got rid of the jeans that you would just wear to paint something and I was like these are all uncomfortable because they're like too fancy now I relate to that because I have several

pair of jeans that I'm supposed to do work in. I see something, I'm like, oh, fuck, I was supposed to cut that down. And then I'm doing it and I'm ruining the new jeans. I'm never, ever going to go inside and get eventized for my yard job. I'm just going to ruin whatever pair of pants I have.

I also realize it's okay to have the jeans because I need to stop thinking I'm ever dressing like a person with a real job. Because especially here, where am I going? Like a pantsuit? Glouses? Yeah, any of that. On this job, I find... played a character. May and I have a joke, which is defaulting to plaid, which has to do with wardrobe choices on most of the stuff. I mean, not Lorelai so much. She also had nice clothes for a job. But on Parenthood, May would be texting me. She'd be like, what?

are you wearing and I was like I'm defaulting to plaid I'm just gonna wear like another plaid shirt sort of like a groovy-ish mom so that's just kind of my life and if you're going somewhere fancy you're gonna do a whole thing I'm envious of your relationship with me. Really?

First of all, it's the sweetest relationship. It really is special. It really is. I still get a little thrill when she'll text me back because it's not a given. And she's a mom now and she's working and she's in Ireland. She's hard to pin down. She's hard to pin down. If I can get her, I'll panic text her to just get as much out as I can. I'm really working with this. You feel very boxed in right now. You're claustrophobic. But it is really special.

relationship, I feel really thankful for it. It is really flattering. Yes, because she's a blessing on planet Earth. She is one of my absolute favorite people I've ever met. And my envy is that I've been trying to hang out with her for 10 years. I literally have not seen her so

initially since we interviewed her. That was it. And I text her and we'll have an exchange and I'm like, we're going to hang out. I want to meet her baby so bad. And then I bump into you and like, you'll have just seen her. It's not as much as you think. Okay. And it really is like a Christmas. And some of them have to do.

with bribing her. She needs lawn equipment or something. Yeah. I'm trying to think the last time, you know, they're in New York now. I don't even know that. Carlos, her baby daddy, is on Broadway in Hadestown, which I feel happy to plug because he's fantastic.

in it, Carlos Valdez. Never even met him. He's really great. And so they're in New York for the next while. Wow, with the little baby. And then she got this job in Ireland. So she's in Ireland with the baby. Oh. That's a lot. Wow, wow, wow. That's a lot.

Does it mimic... the show or is it more equal friends it's more like equal friends which is insane because she's young but she's like an old soul to put that in context she's been on a set since she was a baby she's been around adults so she's the only person that i know that's

that much younger than me, that any reference I make, she gets. Yes, that mimics a person your own age. And also this was sort of our concept too when we tried to do a podcast is we've been in show business the same amount of time. Yeah, yeah. She's wise. There are certain...

Things that I would go to her about because she's one of those people like you are, and I assume like you are, who has a very definite opinion, which I'll really weigh. A lot will be like, I don't know. I don't want to hurt. I get kind of Pisces-ish about it.

People-pleasing. And she'll be like, absolutely not. No, you can't do that. And I'll be like, right, right. No, no, no. Well, look at her on the show. She's wearing enormous clown glasses. No one else is allowed to do anything. And the third youngest person on the cast is wearing like enormous cartoon glasses. She knows herself.

she can put a boundary out she advocates for herself yeah early on in the show they had us go on some reality show what was it the voice i think it was the voice we had to stand in a weird spot and they cut to us for half a second it was just me

and May. It was a DreamWorks related thing. Oh, okay. And I feel like Howie Mandel is on it. Is that Taylor? That's America's Got Talent. Or one of the game shows. He did a game show. Yes, yes. Like a millionaire. It was just like a little cut to us and she had these giant glasses on. And I remember being like,

hey, are you sure about the glasses? Because they weren't glasses she needed. It was just like a fashion moment. And she wore them and everyone was kind of like, hey. And even after her dad texted her, grandma's concerned about the glasses. The one she wore on Parenthood begged the question, has she gotten a job cooking at Benihana? And that's like part of her character, like cookie. Who's cookie? We were in Turks and Caicos seven years ago. There was a Benihana. Style. Okay. It wasn't.

an actual Benihama? I don't think it wasn't. We don't want to take away from the Benihama name. And one of the cooks name was Cookie and he had glasses on that were like literally two and a half feet wide and covered his whole face. I think for most tourists they love

I loved Cookie, but it was like watching a mime the whole time. No, the kids were crying, and so Kristen took them out and said it was just us two sitting at this big table with Cookie, and Dax panicked. He's like, I can't handle Cookie right now.

with Cookie's routine. I didn't know how to give him one. It's a lot to ask of the audience. It was so stressful. He do the thing and he flips the egg into the hat. That's great. Do that. Sure. But these enormous glasses. Poor Cookie. We saw him, didn't we? He was in a commercial for the place or something. Anyways. He's doing great. But the thing I'll add that maybe you can't see or would sound arrogant to say is you guys are definitely girlfriends.

That's for sure. But she admires you so deeply. She like really has looked up to you since the day you guys met. She's like, what? Me and Tom Hansen have. Me and Tom Hansen are best friends, but also he's my dad. He's the dad I wanted. I think there's a lot of that happening. It's so healing when you have that. And I have had this in a couple very rare... instances there's something in

The vast enough age difference that is not a family member that can mimic what you wish you had. It's like a nurturing relationship, which all friendships aren't necessarily nurturing by nature. More than just, oh, I'm in a bad mood. Give me advice about my...

girlfriend or boyfriend this is more like hey anytime you need anyone to take care of you I'd love to be that person when you have that instinct towards somebody it's very sweet and special it is sweet and special but I am not her actual mom I don't have a responsibility there except to my love yeah you don't have to model some great behavior you just have to be available

It's the best version of a familial relationship. It doesn't have all the baggage around it. It's like the purest. I've never thought of it like that. That's really true. I don't think I have either, but I also have that to some degree. You have it with your sister. Oh, I have a great relationship with my...

half siblings and the sister, we've had the same mom. That loss is very bonding. She was a senior in college and graduated and then came to live with me. And that is very unique. But I was going to say with my TV mom, Kelly Bishop, I also Yeah, but you're kind of getting that motherly feeling, right? It just would be... hilarious I mean Kelly is such a gosh I've never thought about if they are similar at all my mom was just such a unique

sensitive, very creative. A little naive, you said last time. A little trusting. And Kelly's so like balls to the wall, you know? And she has her vulnerability, obviously. This runs the risk of sounding like women shouldn't be in the workplace. So I'm going to acknowledge that. But I will observe in my own wife, a ton's on her shoulders. She's the boss of these sets she's on, as are you.

And there is one costume designer who she really wants on every job because that woman feels so maternal to her. And she will often just hug her throughout the day. And she said, I'll often just cry. But it's not sad. I feel so safe in this particular person's arms. And I like that throughout the day because there's a lot on her shoulders. And there's this whole acting the way you have to act in that role as a woman. I don't know. I just think it might be.

A bit more complicated. Then. When you're the boss. Oh yeah. And you're a woman in this job. I think you need a soft place to land occasionally, I guess is what I'm saying. It was interesting doing this show I just did. It was a lot of things I had. hadn't done because there was no lead lead of parenthood we all had our strengths and moments it wasn't the pressure on one person it's just something has switched and I guess it's age appropriate but I am still surprised to

be the person people are looking to. They're looking to you to set the tone and vibe of this whole experience. And they care about my opinion, which I'm still like... Really? I don't even know what I'm doing. And they're asking my opinion. This is a show where there's a lot of young people. And for many of them, it was their first or second experience. Yes, I watched it. And no insult to anyone. They were all fresh.

faces for me. I'm also 50. I missed your birthday thing. I wasn't here. We canceled it. Oh, really? Because you weren't here. I wish that was true. You ruined my M50s. I was going to tell you after the interview. In a corner. I was like, well, she's not coming then. Why the fuck are we doing this? But yeah, that was still surprising. And it was...

Fantastic. I had a director, producer who I knew, and that ended up being this huge, big piece of it. And I didn't realize until we were in it, I was like, thank God I worked with him. I know this guy. My boss is an incredible writer and really a great. boss much younger it's like her second or third show and so there was a lot of

people asking my opinion and it can be lonely. Can I guess that you have to be the grown up? Like we could be on set together. If you and I had a scene together, we could complain about the director. There was a whole strata above us and we can be little misfits who are bonded.

Yes. But you can't take that role now. You can't shit on anyone. You can't complain. No. And even I had some day when one of the cast had a complaint about something. I was like, oh, I know it's bad or something. And you can see them perk up.

that they felt validated but I was like ooh I can't really be doing that because then they go say you know Lauren but so that was a surprising place to be and it's like the thing I'm talking about I'm always a little bit behind I don't think it's bad because the people who have a very strong sense of their place and kind of who they are that can go in the wrong direction or there's too much sense of importance but

It's a place you tend to have earned. And I need to be comfortable in those shoes. I always remember in Tina Fey's book, when she's talking about 30 Rock, she's comfortable as a writer. She'd been a performer. She hadn't been the lead of a TV show opposite.

Alec Baldwin. And she said, I realized at a certain point I had to stop apologizing within my performance, which is just a phrase I think about. I had a sense of, I don't want to be like, yeah, I'm the boss, but I mean, and sort of apologize. That's a very gendered thing. Well, yes, right.

We'll have these brilliant fucking experts on there, professors, and they would say this astounding thing that their data just backed up and they go, or, you know, that's at least what we found. It's like, oh, you don't even need to say it at that point. You don't. You have the data. It's really baked in.

As women more than men. Adding a little escape for you to not feel so threatened that I just knew more than you. Staying likable is a thing that women carry that men do not. Do they not, though? We do. I just think. It's different. Well, being likable for a man is that. is exuding confidence. They're not trying to balance being dominant and being submissive all at once. Right. This experience was positive. I balanced it pretty well. And then I watched this little thing.

On Instagram, maybe you guys have heard of it. Oh my God, tell us. We just got on. I'm trying to get off of it, honestly. I know, I know. That actually was May. May was like, I think you've waited so long that the cooler move is to not do it at all. I just felt pressured. You kind of got to, if you're realistic. Somebody said to me,

You think you're not on social media, but you are. You're just not speaking for yourself. Others are, as Gilmore Girls in particular, just continues to have this presence. And let them come here directly from you. And also you're an author. The authors we have in, they're on.

press tours actress could never even comprehend. You're killing yourself to get people to read a book. So if you have the opportunity to put that in front of millions of people's eyes, it'd be insane not to. But this is a pattern of yours. Uh-oh. We love patterns.

Trauma earlier? First of all, I loved the Gilmore Super Bowl commercial. But I did remember we would talk about doing commercials while we were shooting Parahood. And you were just like, I just can't wrap my head around. You were so curious why Kristen and I kind of were just like, oh, fuck yeah, we'll go. We'll go sell some phones. This is a great example, which is my agent has been saying to me,

For a very long time, it doesn't now ding what you're trying to do as an actor or a writer. The best one is I got this offer when this stuff was still kind of early. Sometimes when I don't know if I should do something, I'm like, what would so-and-so do?

Like this person would a thousand percent not do it. And I passed on it and that person ended up doing it. You shored up your decision. And I was like, wait, what? That was the universe giving you a gift. That's maybe so. I feel differently about it now.

And I felt differently. Also, the whole way it was approached was very respectful. And I thought would be fun for people because that's the thing I think about, especially with Gilmore Girls fans. Is this good for them? You just have to treat it exactly as you would treat a TV show.

Right. Which is like, is this good? Will this be fun to watch for 30 seconds? One of the things I long ago may have been concerned about is the separation between character and person. I wanted to be able to play different characters. And ultimately in TV, you end up using so much of yourself. That separation isn't that broad unless you're on Downton Abbey or something. And even then. But yeah, I had a different kind of sense of preciousness. Well, when I was re-listening to the episode from...

Seven years ago today, you were talking about this intense pressure you put on yourself out of... college and you had started early yet now you were behind and this terrible fear of making the wrong choice and fucking up which was really present in your early life and I think also part of it is just you know how hard it is to get here you know how hard it is to end up on Gilmore Girls. Two dozen people have a show like that for the rest of their life. And so you...

are terrified you'll make the wrong decision and fuck it up and you'll make it go away because you went into this other thing. It's like this is very consistent when I was listening to it. I think I have it less so now. You started to say you saw something on Instagram that we got really deranged. I think it was going to be positive, but I don't remember. This is a funny story from Phalan.

You did post a cute picture of you with the billboard for the Z suite behind you in Times Square. But I think people might not realize this funny aspect of those billboards. Did we have one for parenthood? I was so thrilled by this. I was like, this has never happened before, which is not true. We would have Gilmore Girls...

on the barum where Warner Brothers is, like a billboard. And it kind of didn't occur to me because, once again, a little bit behind, that now they're video. They're not paper anymore. They're moving pictures. There's not a guy with a fucking roller wallpaper. Which we still have on Sunset. You know, there's...

So like a painted billboard. So someone had sent me a photo of it. First of all, I walked there from downtown. I was so excited. I was just like a dork. And then I get there and that area is not an easy place to just stand. No. be doing something. It looks a little...

Suspicious. Yeah, for sure. Then I didn't realize that it's not just my billboard. It's ads for 55 others. So it's like Harrison Ford has a movie coming out and somebody's dropping a hot single. And like, so I'm standing there. And the first time,

I missed it. This is the other problem. It makes me so frustrated because I don't want to be the person who's like, I don't know how to do this newfangled. There's more than that, too, because you and I, we have bonded over this before. You and I fucking hate getting our picture taken. I don't ever need to see my face as long as I live again.

So just the notion that I've got to take my own picture of myself at a really bad angle with a terrible lens. We're not set up for success right out of the gate. No, there's no part of me that's like, yeah, loving light. It's not something I'm proud of. That's just how it is. And so.

recently I went to apply for something and they were like send a recent photo I was like I don't have one like I just don't have one I'll send the billboard so I'm standing there waiting waiting waiting waiting because I missed it once waiting to cycle through all these things and people are like kind of looking

Looking at me, which is my second worst nightmare. And then there was a guy who stands there to take people's pictures in Times Square. And he was genuinely like, oh, I got competition now. And then I found the good spot. But the good spot was me standing. but I'm filming

Behind myself. You got to get that billboard in your face. Which is hard. You couldn't even tell it was me in the picture. It was freezing cold. It was text. It was freezing cold. I had like weird glasses on and like a hat. You look very cute. Thank you. Closer to me than you are now was a hot dog man.

who was also kind of looking at me, because as much as this is our world now, people are rightly like, what are you filming, lady? Like, I'm making a hot dog. What more do you need to know? It looks like you're pointing the camera at him. Yes. And so he, after a while, was kind of like,

Can I help you? You know, and I was like, I am so sorry. I am just here. I felt so stupid. Anyway, this is my billboard. It was harrowing, but I got it. Oh, that's funny. But you said it took you 30 minutes. I think this is a sign of personal.

growth. I walked away. I was like, I saw it. It's fine. And then I stopped halfway down the block and I was like, Lauren Graham, you walked up here through Times Square and this is a moment. Don't be embarrassed. There's so many things I don't do because I'm too embarrassed. I was like, I'm going to do it. Where? did that come from?

I don't know. Some people are embarrassed. Really? I find it odd, too. We have one daughter, Delta, who doesn't have an ounce of self-consciousness in her. And what a thing to observe. What a thing. Your life can be so fun. Yes. I can't...

believe it. I mean, it's her mom. Kristen largely is quite unselfconscious. And where does that come from? That's the better question. We can't train her to do that. She just came out like Kristen. But modeling, she grew up seeing her. And I feel like, and you're interesting.

with embarrassment. You get embarrassed, but you also like getting embarrassed. Yeah. That's my way of taking the power back because I do get very self-conscious and very embarrassed, but I'm so stubborn. I refuse to let that be a defeat. So I have to, but now I genuinely do.

the movies I was carrying the biggest like a comical if you were directing this scene you go the popcorn's too big they don't make them that big right I don't know how starving I was at that point or I thought you and Jess were going to take a lot of it but I had a gallon of popcorn and I

I had sincerely a hundred ounce Diet Coke and then some Milk Duds or something. And we're walking and I slip as if there were a banana peel on the steps. Oh my gosh. And I go completely up in the air and land on my back and the fucking popcorn got thrown up in the air. It was cartoonish.

And even before I land, I'm laughing so hard that I know I'm also going to almost pee my pants. So like once I land, I'm now pinching my penis because I'm afraid I'm going to pee my pants. Were you literally pinching it? Yes, because I know to do that if it's going to be. be bad i just put some pressure on so the embarrassing part was the popcorn yes i'm very proud you are a grown man no that's a guy who knows how to handle his business true Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

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I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we're talking about the singer and songwriter John Lennon. His band, The Beatles, smashed musical conventions. caused hysterical adulation and are still the biggest selling band of all time. But that adoration obscured a complex and combustible character. He might have been singing Give Peace a Chance, but his personal life was often far from...

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I don't think I've ever seen you be embarrassed because you have that way about you. And especially in this role, you're in charge. You know how to put the other person at ease and also be like, thank you so much.

much goodbye you're the host of this moment of somebody coming up to you and again no I'm just saying I think that's a control thing I think I was very self-conscious as a kid and then I just at some point was like we're gonna have to approach this differently because I mean I'm just highly self-conscious

As is my other daughter, who's very much like me. They're in the same house with the same instruction. It's pretty wild. Right. One question I didn't ask you last time is how well do you think you could do on the SAT today? Our friend Lauren was a SAT tutor for the Princeton, like a good one. Yeah. Princeton Review. That was a little bit of a racket, I have to say, in that my SATs were fine. I don't remember what they were. Like 1500-ish? That's really good.

Good. What are they out of? 1600 back then. Anything above 13s pretty good? I think so. I don't even know. I bet you were in the 15s. I don't think so. You're very bright. Because I remember there was an expectation that I would score higher. Okay. That some teacher was like.

I'm surprised you didn't do better. That's always great. But I was a tutor in some capacity. I scored well enough on the test you had to take to teach the test kind of thing, which was probably a sort of an SAT. And then you learn the test and that. made me a teacher of other tests I'd never taken. So it was a good gig. Having that gig just led to more teaching of tests. My two questions are, one, you would have had to inadvertently pick up the whole test at some point.

Yeah. Like I'm saying, if you would have taken it at the end of that job, you probably would have gotten a pretty outstanding score. I don't know what the test is now. I think there's more free form writing, which there should be, because otherwise what you learn in learning how to teach that. test is correct.

how to take a multiple choice test, which is how many you should eliminate. It's not really learning vocabulary or math or anything. It's like a tactical approach. And I'm not sure it would still work, but I think the way you have a good vocabulary is reading and writing.

still read and write a lot and I play every single New York Times game that is on the phone. Is that doing anything for me? I don't know. I think so. Connections is our obsession. Every single one. There's one that's called, I forget, but it's... Strands. Is Strands the one where you're doing...

the word. It's like a word search but you can go all over the place. There's that one that's new but there's the one where you have to do words. Letterboxd. Letterboxd thank you. What's Letterboxd? Letterboxd is I find a good challenge because

You have to use up all the letters within a certain number of words. You can repeat. That's a good one. You're sort of strategically like, how am I going to work the cue in kind of thing. Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so when you were doing that... This is a very weird comparison, but I think of Epstein, right? He was like a teacher at a private school. He was lying about his credentials and teaching at a private school. And he wooed this man whose kid he was teaching.

who was a big investment banker and ended up getting a job with that guy through having met through the kid. So I went to your SAT thing and I was like, did you interact with all these privileged kids and did the dads come and make moves on you? What was happening? No. At this time, I'm 22 or 3, so I'm still a little closer to the 18-year-olds. I remember, not in any kind of way, but I remember having a student where I was like...

I would go out with this guy. But the thing I noticed the most. I would go out with this guy. Later, later. But I also led bike tours a couple of summers. And in those jobs. You don't really see the parents. This is more the thing where they're like, you guys good? Okay, bye. So the interaction with the parents was pretty low, I have to say. But as a T-Tutor, you would do it in their homes? Yeah. I had more success as a waitress. Sure. Dated the bartender.

That's your weird, fun dichotomy as a human, I think. That I'll date the bartender. Yes, because you have a healthy dose of anxiety and overthinking things. But there's also a side of you that understands restaurant culture and can get down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think if I didn't have the other one, I'd be unbearable. I'm fun.

I'm a good hang. You can party. And a restaurant is like a pretty good hang. But the other person who always asks, did people hit on me, is Ray Romano. Because among my many waitressing jobs, I was a cocktail waitress at the Improv in New York City, right out of college. You're beautiful. But you're...

Hold on. Don't fucking do this. You were a fucking smoke show when you were younger. I've seen a lot of these pictures of you recently. Super curly hair. I did not identify that way. But you were. You just missed it. Thank you.

I think I maybe gave off. First of all, I'm doing these jobs. These jobs are really hard. I just want to go home and go to sleep. I was always a person who had a long-term boyfriend or no thing. I was not like a dater. But the other person who always says, did I hit on you, was Ray Romano at the comedy club. He wonders. if he himself hit on you. He can't remember. He assumes he did. And he did not. Oh, that's kind of an insult. Yeah, exactly. And he's asked me more than once. I'm like, right.

one more time what I hear is he really regrets not hitting on you that's what I hear I'll take it he's the best but I do have a thing for you know Comics are just real tough, but I love them so much. Well, they're challenging, which is a good thing and a bad thing. It's a rough life. It's brutal. It's a mean, brutal world. And I can't imagine it now. Now for people, my godson Clyde's buddy, they're 23. He's moving to New York.

dad is a successful screenwriter and he knows the business and he's going to New York to try his hand at stand-up. Yeah, I applaud it. I remember from the club, people would sit in the back. They were supportive, I guess, but also there's that thing of like, maybe they'll die.

And then I won't die. You know, it's a real more cutthroaty thing. There's been obviously all this stuff around the Starnet Live 50th. I can't get enough. I've read every book. I have watched everything to do with it. But for my money, there was not enough.

time spent on people's auditions. And there's a whole series about it, but there's a thing where Bill Hader's in the elevator and one of them had props and the other one didn't have props. It was like Andy Samberg and him and they're being like, shoot, I should have brought props. The other one being like, I shouldn't have props.

thing of like, how do you start these careers is so fascinating to me. When you say you didn't identify as the smoke show that Dax identified you as, then were you like, my, quote, worth is in humor, is in being smart, those things. I skipped a grade.

I skipped grade when I was little, and I was one of the only kids in school whose mom was not around. So I think those two things were weird at the time. It teaches you to read a room, and we all have a version of what our sensitivity is to reading the room. I think May has a really developed...

reading the room from being in a lot of rooms with a lot of older people and having a sense for your own success and protection of how am I going to get through this? How to survive it. Yeah. And so I think that maybe put me on a little bit of a back foot. But being younger than everybody and I could read to the degree that they skipped me out of kindergarten.

Somehow I didn't borrow from that. This is a privilege and a really cool thing. I was always sort of trying to lay low. My dad remarried. It wasn't without women, great aunts and friends and babysitters even who were fantastic. But it's not like having a mom in the house. But you're staring at your whole job.

Childhood going, right. Oh, and you put on makeup that way and you do this. Any of that. Oh, and she said hi to dad that way and he kind of blushed. And it's really driven home right now because my one sister has three kids, but my other sister has one. who is a four and a half year old now, which is the age my mom sort of started to go. They live in Manhattan and I see them a lot. So I'm seeing this age. Yes. And this experience is not as present for me as it was, but clinically I...

Can look at it, especially knowing this child as I do and see what that age is. I never really saw it. Imagine her now without her mom. Cannot imagine. I had the same story about my dad. I'm like, oh, I didn't ever have one. So I didn't pine for it. I didn't miss him because I didn't have it. But bullshit. Yeah. But my father did an incredible job.

There was lots of family around. I had lots of cousins. Having this unconventional for that time, now it's less unusual. You were certainly the only kid in your whole high school being raised by their dad. By the high school, he was remarried. I was the only kid in elementary.

school who did not have a mom in the picture and they were curious about it the teachers would be like who does your hair because it was still a more traditional time it would always be a thing if there was a show and costumes needed to be sewn and my dad would ask his secretary you know like

Stuff like that. Wait, I'm sorry. Did she? She went to England. She left. She was pursuing a singing career at the time. She was pursuing all kinds of things. And I think they were so young. I don't know that she had an idea of what it was going to be. You're incredible. fair in the first.

interview to her and your dad. They were both very, very young. They got married and the dad took off to Vietnam for two years to be an interpreter and they were in Japan. Well, who he worked for was USAID, which is recently in the news for being...

somewhat dismantled. When I read that this morning, I was thinking, wow, yeah, you actually have a connection to that. Sorry, I got confused because we had talked at the beginning about her passing. She also died when she was 61. She also died. But then she... got ill in her 50s. Got it. It was a pretty stressful path, but I would go to England to visit her. And then meanwhile, my father had my sister and my brother and a much more nuclear and traditional and very warm family.

I had all the experiences in a way. I don't want to say that I had no confidence. I did. and do and also I think I didn't identify in high school there were the girls who were the sanctioned hot girls it didn't feel like a lack or anything and like I had a high school boyfriend not that that's the gauge but I mean a little bit do you feel like guys are into you and I will say my mom people would stop on the street she both was beautiful but also she really owned it she dressed

the part she had a kind of swagger. I just was like, okay, that's not me. Like it wasn't a judgment even. It was just a different way of being and being in the world. And aging was difficult for her. I'm going to stop psychoanalyzing you, but the one thing I'll add is I think whatever parent takes you...

You'll have a loyalty to that parent that you have to. This just occurred to me interviewing Josh Brolin. Just think of the notion that you recognize these adults can split. If you just acknowledge that's a reality, one of your parents can bail. Presumably the other one could. I don't know.

So you have this really deep loyalty. And so for me, I was like, I'm like my mom. I'm not like that guy that abandoned her. Well, I'm very much like him. They give me my whole life to recognize. No, in fact, I'm kind of a carbon copy of him. But I was defining myself. in opposition of him because he didn't have qualities I admired. He wasn't around. So I don't know. I mean, subconsciously, you also identified more with your dad and wanted to identify. And he was a cerebral, competent.

Yeah. And fun at a party. Yeah. And it was not even that I didn't want to be what my mom was. It's just so mystifying. I would go visit. And yes, she was in a band or she was in. fashion and people really reacted to her my sister carries herself like she's got such incredible sophistication and great fashion sense and i'm in like a high top reebok you know it just was different so it wasn't even a loss obviously not

having her in my life is a loss. And when we talk about identity and how you both are given yours and craft it as well, I was like, I like being one of the guys. I'm really comfortable there. And that came with being fun and funny. The party that you are.

How was the Super Bowl? Really fun. I've gone twice to work there. It's a little overwhelming for me. It's totally overwhelming. Are you kidding with all the stuff we just talked about? And then I was telling Monica, I don't ever worry about terrorism. I just started thinking like, well, this would be an idea. deal plays, and I'm here, and why? I don't even care. I mean, especially now, and Trump was there, so on the one hand, more security. On the other hand... Great target. Sure. I was...

With Joel McHale, we love each other. He makes everything fun. But this was the same group because I went to Fox Upfronts this year because Tubi's a Fox subsidiary. At the... Fox Upfronts, it was me, Joel, Jon Hamm, a couple maybe other TV shows. TV now is football. Oh, 100%. It was like 10 football players. And again, Girls Guy, I was really happy there. Everyone's like three.

feet taller than me. I was just like, I love being around a bunch of jocks. Yeah. I was like, but also ham is great. Will Arnett was there. I was very comfortable. So our box was Joel. Pablo, Gordon Ramsay, who was lovely. That made it fun. And then you're just there with snacks and people stop by, but you don't really see the game from there. People were like, how was the halftime show? I was like, it was this big.

Last thing I want to say before we get to your show, we both have read the Cher biography. It's so good. How fucking good is that biography? Even if you don't care about Cher, which I don't know how you can't, it's such a snapshot of a different time, of a different Hollywood, of a different Los Angeles. There was a strength to her version of her story that I thought...

Well, if you get to choose, that's the way to do it. It helped that she was wildly talented. And to a certain degree, nobody was going to mess with her. She did get her own leverage and broke free. So you're right. Since she landed on top, it's probably easier for her to see it that way. And I think. As we do.

She's replicating or finding familiar what was already going on in her life and her childhood, which was not a huge amount of stability. And my own version, I was out on my bicycle. I had a paper route at like 12. We didn't know the things we should do.

be worried about as much as we know today. There's so much to worry about now and so many ways to worry and so much access to things to worry about. And it just was a different time. I even think when I first came here in 96 or 97, I had a little bit of money in the bank.

I had done some commercials, which I wasn't too, you know, too precious for. I almost wondered if the reason you didn't want to go back to him is like it represented something. No, I had a blast, but I'm doing commercials as like, you guys should try Liquid Death or whatever, which why is it called that?

That's not a good commercial when you question the name. Yeah, I don't think maybe there's a reason. Liquid death. What could be more refreshing? Yeah, we know. No, I love doing them. I made money. And also. Even when we did that Walmart thing, there are a couple of skills I have that do not help me in any other realm except in the realm to which they belong. Like if you tell me that something was 32 seconds and you need it to be 30 seconds, I can pretty much.

Let's do that. Yeah. You know, Monica's done more commercials than both of us combined. She's been in a hundred because she's the most successful commercial actress I've ever met in my life. She regularly had five nationals running at the same time. And what is the world of it now? Is it still good?

I haven't done them in a long time too. It was good money, but not like it was. No, that was the promise. Like you could get this one commercial and you could get $250,000 and that never happened. But it was a fun little... time. As an actor starting out, it gave you a day. Here's my day. I'm going to this audition. I'm going to run into so-and-so. I'm going to have lunch at the diner. You had the illusion of being productive.

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. One thing you have to say to Monica because she's, I don't want to say the biggest. And I see it on your paper and I'm so excited. You're already titillated, right? Yeah, I am. But you've met Taylor Swift. I have.

Tell us everything. I learned this. This is fun backstage. I was flying to Lisbon with Lincoln and we had not had the passport and then we got it. And then we had this five hour layover for the next flight. And then God bless the universe. You and Sam Pancake are at the counter. So we got to.

We had spent a couple hours in a lounge together, which was the longest time we had spent together in a couple years. I cherished that little layover. But that's where I learned this story. It was Sam Pancake. Oh, he's the most lovely, talented. It's her best friend who's a really funny actor. Oh, fun. He's fantastic. I had a book that had come out the year before, but then the paperback came out. We did a live event and then we got asked to do another one. And then we were like, hold on.

Maybe this is what we're doing now for a while. And so we're going to Scotland, I think. And it just was traveling with my buddy. We kind of made it into a show and he was like the moderator. It was really fun. But that's where we ran into you guys. I was at a small party.

I know some people who know, I didn't know she was going to be there. I just was trying to be so cool or something, but she was lovely. And she asked about Gilmore Girls. She said, did you know it was going to be such a thing? I just walk in. I don't want to lean on this. I'm growing.

But I assume no one knows anything and no one has seen anything. Which is literally impossible. That's how I move through the world as well. I think it's just safer that way, but it's not a false humility. I just assume she's a very busy person.

It's best to start there. You're super pleasantly surprised when it's the other thing. This was a couple years ago, too. It's even grown since then. She just was really lovely. I'm friends with Jenny Han, who is the showrunner of The Summer I Turned Pretty, among other things, and Taylor had given the song to use. It was part of the show. And so I sort of said, you know, Jenny Han, and she knew what I was talking about. And then I just was like, anyway, so.

You're much younger, but I'm very intimidated by you. Were you or no? Intimidated by her. It was more like I didn't want to bother her, but we're at a small party. She had friends there. It's a version that I'm really trying to get rid of, which...

I've had with some actresses I have admired and worked with, Diane Keaton and Meryl Streep, of that thing where I'm like, surely you have other things to do. But now sometimes I'm in that position and I'm like, not really. Exactly. You think you're being respected. But you could also be being read as aloof and disinterested. Oh, God. They could walk away thinking.

She had zero interest in me. We worked together for two months. She didn't ask me a single question. I was in Godfather. She could have inquired about that. So you want to know anything? Or even if they know what's happening, that's still sad for them probably. Like no one feels that they can come talk to me for a reason.

I had that with Candice Bergen, too, in that movie that I did with Joel. She couldn't have been nicer, and we ended up sitting next to each other. I've read all her books. I've seen everything she's ever been in, and I don't know. It's just bad. This is the day that it doesn't exist anymore.

I'm going to talk your ear off. Beware the next person who works with me. Because, oh, this is what I was going to say. I remembered the Instagram thing. Which is, Tubi did a thing where they interviewed, they don't love being called the kids on the show, but we've all called them.

the kids where they were like what's it like to work with lauren graham which again is just a premise i would not have thought of they were all super great and nice but a couple said she's really professional and i was like i think i wasn't fun enough because i am very professional and there was a lot to consider and it's the first season of a show and I'm a producer and sort of thinking about lots of things all the time but I wanted them to be like

She's a laugh riot. Yes. I have the thing. They say the best advice if you have a stalker or someone obsessed with you is you can't say anything because no matter what you say, even you're like, get out of my life. I can't say anything. They can twist that. I have that skill with a positive. I'll make. get a dig. Oh, so I didn't have enough blue on? Even you being professional. It's like, there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so the Z-Suite. First of all, what did you think the name was when your agent told you? Sam and I were on tour. I was in the lobby of a hotel. We've been working together for so long. He knows how to tell me something. So he was like, there's a show. He was saving.

it's on a network you've never heard of for the very end. But I actually, just jumping ahead, did not and do not view that as a barrier to entry, having been on the WB when it was quite new. And it is part of what I do think I'm starting to... understand about the world of media that we're in, which is you never know. So this is where I ask in a non-insulting way, do not try to find something negative. Explain Tubi to me. It is its own streaming platform. It is free. It is more.

more like television as we knew it. It comes on some televisions. It is an app you can get on your phone. If you sign up, it still doesn't cost any money, but then you can download, you can record, you can use it as we use our apps. It has... a really friendly interface. There's live, there's movies, and they are starting to do original content. And we were their first scripted comedy. They've been incredible to work with. They've been really collaborative.

They're excited too, which you don't necessarily get with your established things. Yeah, they're more flexible and open. But we didn't even get to the punchline. So when he calls you. He's giving me all the stuff and he's like, this is the character. It's called the disease suite. And I was like.

Wait, it's a hospital show? I was like, that is a terrible title. And we went through the rest of the conversation with me still thinking. He did not correct me because he didn't understand what I was saying. So I was like, it doesn't sound like a comedy to me.

me wait who has a disease like we really had four part conversation about it he's like that's not what i'm saying z suite by the way because i am so out of corporate america i didn't know that z suite is a play on c suite which is your executive lounge and of course Of course, this is Gen Z takes over. I have a whole issue with C-suite because this is now ubiquitous that everyone knows what a C-suite is. And I don't understand why it's called C. CEO, CFO, COO. Only the people.

the C. It's the chief's office. All the chiefs. The suite where all the fancy people are. Okay. What's your baseline about Generation Z. I think there's a bunch of stereotypes about them, but I am suspicious they're not the numbers that we think. No. What the show asks is who's more ridiculous? The people who have taken this corporate culture really serious?

or these people who are trying to have a better time, work from home, have kooky parties involving llamas. And what I like about the show is that it really doesn't take a side. I'm as ridiculous as the kids are ridiculous and it's fun. because it's not meant to advocate for anybody. Well, skewer both sides. Right. The thing I value more than anything, I will do the disease suite, but I've got to have a good day with people that I like and trust and believe.

leave in and laugh with. We had that and you just don't necessarily get that. In a very healthy way, seven years ago, we already felt this way, which is you get to a certain point where for me, I was like, I'm not going to be in a Marvel movie. And yours was, I'm not going to be Sandra Bullock.

And then at that point, I think a very healthy transition happens where you go, OK, so I'm going to focus on process because I'm not really in the results game as much anymore. But the process now means everything to me. And I think it's a very healthy thing to prioritize that. To get to a place. where I already got more than I thought I would. I feel so...

Oh, now I get to do this without the pressure. There's still pressure and I want the show to come back and I want people to like it. Without the neuroticism. You already did it. You proved yourself. You've been on multiple things that are incredible. The fact that things are still kind of...

out there. It's huge. That's the thing that very few people get, which is something that just keeps getting enjoyed for a long, long time is seems almost impossible. And that's really rare. You know, if only I had merch. Oh, I was thinking that when you guys were talking about parent hoodie stuff, big mistake for them not to do a parent hoodie. There were 13 cast members and we bought the gift. You know, we would cumulatively chip in on whatever we were getting the crew and the amount.

emails that would go back and forth to decide whether we were getting this mug or this fucking why was that such a hard oh it was impossible what was the brand of sweatshirt we get there was kind of terry cloth oh not a north face but the other one the other

Patagonia? Yeah. Hattie goes like, are we going to go Patagonia tall neck or are we going all the way with the puffer vest version? I love that. I know I was making among the lowest of all the actors and I was kind of like, get him a mug, man.

I didn't say it, but I was like, guys. We tried to prorate it. But then it was sort of like, then people. That's right. It's like, that's not fair. Maybe I've told you this. Maybe I haven't. But every job I had ever had in my life prior to parenthood, I made a point. to find out what everyone was making.

How? Oh, I'd always figure it out. He just asked. I'd either get in a conversation or I'd get it out of him or I'd back channel through an agent. I would figure it out. I went into parenthood going, I'm purposely going to not find out. And I was so happy on the show.

I was like, if I find out Jabbar's making twice as much as me, how could I enjoy going to work when I enjoy so much going to work until I find out my son is making more than me? But that was the first time I ever broke that habit. Boy, was it a blessing.

So your character, Monica. Wow. She's insisted as a nod to you, that be her character's name. It was originally named Gail. You're like, that's not going to work. But we did fuss with the last name. I had various last names because, you know, clearance. I never understand. I don't either. But I really cared about what her name was. And for a while, she was Monica, a bunch of other things. And I was like, this doesn't sound like...

who I want this person to be. It's got to be Padman, but not Padman. But we can't do that. Because I am not Indian and that might be an issue. Some appropriation stuff might pop up for you. Yes, exactly. There were various... Somebody's Monica Mc... None of those cleared. Well, we land on Monica Marks. I like that.

But we meet you and you're winning a huge award for being an incredible advertising agent. Is that what we call them? Executive. I run an advertising agency called Atelier. Oh, wow. Which is a big word we talk about. about all the time. That's a big ding, ding, ding for us. You can't imagine how much you just walked into. Because I was taught that name by Monica, who's a fashionista. And I said, you watch, they're going to start calling Subway an Atelier.

Oh. It's going to be like artisan. Right. Where it's like, it'll mean nothing. It means nothing, but it makes you feel like it's worth the $10 you're paying for the sandwich. Exactly. The artisan sandwich from the Atelier Shop subway. Yes. You're super well established.

You fuck up an ad campaign. You say all somethings matter. I say all vibes matter. It's for vibes headphones. And this was something I cannot tell you how many conversations we had about what is believable, even in the world of comedy, that this person who.

who's the head of this thing, who's risen up. What's a believable mistake that would get her canceled that we think would have gotten through yet is tone deaf. Tone deaf, not racist. That's the kind of the line we want to straddle. That's exactly right. I'm going to be like, oops, I didn't realize. Yeah, all vibes matter. In the right context, you could not put those two together. Right.

So that spells your demise. And you also have a young woman that works for you. And she's worked there for 168 days, only 43 of which were in the office. And she thinks she's ready to run the place. This stereotype, I do have a few friends who own businesses who they... some young employees that are completely shocked they're not vice president within like a year of

work. I know plenty of these stories because that was something too where I kept saying to people, is this believable? And they were like, oh yeah, I have a million examples. It's just growing up differently. It's probably exaggerated and also quite real. Yes. I was almost thinking when I was doing my research on you.

I'm like, I wonder if part of it is, it's totally not their fault. They would have been at an age where they watched Mark Zuckerberg start the biggest company on earth at 26 years old. There would be a lot of examples for them that we certainly didn't have. So some of it, I think.

It's not even their fault. They were just like, yeah, by the time you're 26, you should own Facebook. It's also parenting changes. And we see it's why all these generations get named because whatever the cultural experience their parents were having, I was more latchkey kid where she's probably.

fine. We'll find out tonight at nine when I get home. That's right. And then there's more of like a helicopter thing that happened. I just always remember this statistic and I don't even know what generation it applied to, but that kids... had a tough time picking up a water pitcher and balancing it because so much had been done for them. Nobody was like, you pour the thing, baby. So like, things like that that you don't even think of.

But I think of that as like, you wouldn't think as a parent. You're really at war with that. Well, it's just reminding me how much I play with my hair. Just things you wouldn't think of as a parent. Like, I need to make sure my child has basic motor skills. at the dinner table. Oh, God. I knew a family who, yeah, their kid didn't learn to walk very, very late. And my mom was like, of course not. The kid gets picked up and carried everywhere. He doesn't need to walk. Kid's a genius. Right.

It's time learning to walk. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. I'm Indra Varma, and in the latest season of The Spy Who... We open the file on the spies who invaded suburbia. The illegals weren't just blending in. They were the embodiment of the American dream. Nine to five jobs, dropping the kids off at soccer practice, and just the right amount of charm to slide into the orbits of the powerful.

But behind closed doors, they were Russian operatives, meticulously crafting coded messages and feeding Moscow everything it needed to stay one step ahead of the US. When a powerful mole reveals the names and locations of the undercover spies, the FBI finds itself walking a tightrope, protect its most crucial informant, whilst avoiding a catastrophic diplomatic firestorm.

Follow the Spy Who on the Wondery app or wherever you listen to podcasts. Or you can binge the full season of The Spies Who Invaded Suburbia early and ad-free with Wondery+. I'm John Robbins and joining me on How Do You Cope this week is the actor Tuppence Middleton. I think with OCD you're so focused on keeping control of certain things because you have so little control over others that it's just about...

surrendering to knowing that you never really will have control and that's okay. So that's How Do You Cope with me, John Robbins. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. My dive buddy just kind of started like whacking me underwater and then he didn't know how to tell me that there's a shark So he's trying to scream shock and then eventually he just went with singing the jaws theme tune

Hello, I'm Hannah Stipfel and I host a podcast called Ocean's Life Underwater. If you haven't listened before and you're interested in the fascinating world of turtles and whales, then we might just be your new favourite podcast. To join us, just search for For Ocean's Life Underwater, wherever you're listening to this. When I'm around friends, kids and stuff, I'm like...

Don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get canned and then you build an entire replica of your office in your home, which is fantastic. Now these young kids start running the agency. They really bonded with each other, which was fantastic. And that's one of the positives. of being on location in a first season of a show. They had each other and they really hung out together and it seemed like had a good time. I was busy being professional, so I wouldn't know.

studying for the next day. That's the plight of the boss. The boss. And it really is. Here's a joke in this show that I have unfortunately heard people in my life claim they have which is one of the younger workers is late and he says I have time blindness yeah I know. That's a thing. You haven't heard that? No. I've now heard people our age claim to have time. That same character also says he's audibly fragile when someone's too loud. Oh my God. Yeah. It's wonderful.

Yeah. But I'm sort of awful in my own ways. And it was so many things I hadn't done or hadn't done in a while. I wanted there to be a core of what is believable and what is just heartbreaking about being replaced. Yes. And losing, it's not just the job, it's relevance and sense of self. Yeah, was all this worth it? And I'm disappearing. The world's changing and none of it was for anything. Right.

You're so fun to work with. I'm really jealous of those people. And I miss it so much. I know. It was a good time. And that was one time when the genuine kids on Parenthood would be like, I can't make it to yoga. And I was like, you have no idea how good you have it. And you better be.

Be thankful. And someday you're going to call me from a show and be like, I had to work 14 hours. It's all going to go downhill from here. This is as good as I'll ever get. It was just the most wonderful group of people, the most wonderful material, the most wonderful Jason Kadams, the most wonderful hours. You got to actually act nearly.

the whole time you were there, which is impossible. We were super lucky. You keep dodging this question in every interview, but I'm going to pretty much make you answer it. Great. You're a part of a phenomena, which is Gilmore Girls. And certainly we saw Will and Grace come back in a very satisfying way for everybody involved. This seems insane that we wouldn't be doing this show again.

Well, we did it for Netflix. Yes, you did four movies. Right. I don't know because they definitely didn't read anything then, but... There seems to have been a mixed reaction in terms of feeling satisfied that people got what they wanted. For me, it was an incredibly... satisfying beautiful cried every day experience i could mark

Some growth I felt I had in terms of that character, that time working with Amy, it felt different. So all the stuff that I loved about it was the same. And then it was better and different and the more grown up version. How do you honor those?

people who have kept it alive? Is it giving them more? Is it doing what Reese Witherspoon's doing with Legally Blonde, Elle, the prequel? Is this a Captain Marvel multiverse where you want to follow whoever? Or do you try to go back? What I think... will and grace did right is they gave you exactly what you had the first time right we can accept that the story's now progressed right but you got to keep it in our really familiar fun that's a really good point i always say

And it's not me trying to get out of the question. It is literally what I could picture. Given everyone's lives, schedules is Christmas movie because that's what I think the Brits do so well with their beloved shows is that you get a Christmas special.

it's not episodes but it's seeing all your friends together again it's one of the reasons I thought the Walmart commercial was a sweet where are they now kind of thing because speaking to have you seen the most recent Bridget Jones not yet I'm obsessed with the books obsessed with the

movies. I think they did an incredible job. Renee is incredible in it. It gives you what that character always was, which is a single girl trying to understand the dating world. Yeah. Which you couldn't do. You had to make her single again. Right. Yes. The engine of the whole thing was her being.

single. That's right. And then she's out. It's the same dynamic. Also, dating's a whole thing that still happens. It's actually real. But dating has changed. So it's like, how do you re-enter that? Is there something weird, though, about... Weird maybe isn't the right word, but a little unsettling about seeing...

the person from so many years ago in the exact same spot they were? I don't know. I mean, also, we don't look the same. There's no way you should or could be the same. Exactly, yeah. And so, I don't know. But that's TV.

Well, that's aging. It's just being a person. Crosby's never going to learn. You're never going to learn. That's the premise. Well, but the problem is where we left the characters are not the problem, but now Lorelai and Luke got married. Now Rory's maybe having a baby. So it's not going to be necessarily the two of us.

circling the gazebo you have to add Ed Herman God bless his past it just can't be the same which is why I view it as best served in a holiday in a sort of limited I think that's right some people don't ever change I know. I don't know if it gets... Less funny and more like, oh, Friends was my number one. I could not have loved it more. And I'm glad they never did that. I'm glad it ended and they did it. It can live like that for me forever. Because I do still get asked.

I'm going to tell you right now. They have the thing. You can't erase it. You can't make it disappear. You can't dishonor it. All these fears. You give them. other thing, maybe they'll like it or they won't like it. It's not going to impact that. Thank God it isn't up to me. And what I have clearly said is if somebody calls me to do it, I'll do it. I don't desire to act at all, but I deeply miss being on Parenthood.

And there is a version of that show I would probably do. Yeah. If it were eight episodes or 10 episodes, I could manage my now real job. My fear is more is like going back to your high school.

But I don't think so because we were already like full-fledged adults. And when I see you, it lights me up every time. And when I'm with Trilling, which I spent a lot of time with Trilling, I'm just enamored with being around him. None of that's changed. You have reminded me that I'm angry about your friendship with Larry.

Okay. I knew him first. Yes. I went to college with him. I might have put more effort in. You probably did. And you're in town more. Yes, I'm in town more. But can I please come play with you guys sometime when you have dinner? Maybe the reason that show went away. is once you get to someone having cancer. I mean, when you're on these family shows, there's only so many stories. They don't tend to go on for 10 or 12 years. I mean, this is us as an example, but they didn't go that much longer.

Right. I mean, we did six years. That's about as long as you can do it. And I wouldn't even give a fuck. I don't care how it turns out. That's the problem. You just want to do it for you. I just want to go hang out with you guys. I love you. I love you. From the bottom of my heart, I love you. Yeah, this was so nice. It was so fun. The Z Suite is out now on Tubi and it's free. It's network TV for free as a streamer. I'm in. Thank you. So everyone watch the Z Suite. It's spelled Z.

S-U-I-T-E. So glad we got to hang out. You and I have had sauna plans for about a year and a half. And I said, Jim, we have done this interview. Other people say, let's have lunch. Dax says, come over and sweat your face off. Let's get stronger together. In a bathing suit.

Which is like, that's not where my... That's why he does it like that. Yeah, exactly. That's why a lot of people aren't taking my offer up. They don't want to be in a bathing suit. It might be a red flag who does take you up on that offer. Yeah, exactly. Are there takers? There must be. Mostly other men.

I love you. We have to give you props really quick because you make the best banana bread I've ever had in my entire... Oh, I haven't made that in so long. During COVID, you made it and we had it and it was so cool. You've been derelict in your duties. I have.

I used to make a really good cinnamon bread too. And maybe you can lure May over and I can see her because that's the only way I'll see her. I will. We'll do that when they're back. All right. All right. Love you again. Love you. Get this microphone out of my way. Are you so happy to be wearing your raincoat? Yeah. That's a good part, I guess. That's his brown lining. Brown lining, literally. I was on the road at 6 a.m. this morning. Uh-huh.

Driving to Anaheim, California, home of Disneyland, as you may know. I do know that. Thriving suburb in the greater metropolitan area. Yes. To go to Expo West. Okay. Do you know about Expo West? Nope. I don't know a ton either. Okay. Even after having gone. That's right. Okay. 70,000 attendees. Wow. It's a huge trade show for consumer products. Oh, all kinds? Grocers, products, buyers, suppliers, founders.

And Sharon Beasley and I, Aaron Weekly, were on stage being interviewed. Oh, you were interviewed. Oh, I thought you guys were like trying to sell your product. Well, that's happening, yeah. I had to come back to work for my real job. Oh, are they still there? Yeah, they're still there. Oh. Wandering the halls of a huge convention. Oh. 70,000 attendees. That's great.

Rob, Google, how many cities in America have more than 70,000? So I'm getting 50,000 or more. There's 510 urban areas in the U.S. with a population. Out of 50 states, that's like 10 per state. I don't know what that does for us, but I feel like it's relevant. Not a lot for me. What I'm saying is this would be in the top 500 cities in America for population had this group incorporated into a city while they were.

watching this interview. Okay, great. I'm just thinking about all these products, you know? Yeah, a lot of products. It's crowded space. So many products and... Go ahead. I just... Like, do we need more products? Unless it's filling a space. Yes. I do think you are filling a space with Ted Seekers. I don't think there's a lot of good NA beer. I do too. So I support that product. Yes. But overall, like everyone has a product. Yeah. And I think I'm.

going to say I declare I'm against it. Oh, my goodness. What a controversial stance. Well, you like capitalism and you like the marketplace. Of course. So it's not an anti-capitalist stance. It's more just like. Do we need it, guys? More of an enough already? Yeah. Okay. It's a little bit more of an enough already mixed with, like, everyone famous has to have some product. Like, not you again, not you. No, no, it can be. Go ahead, go ahead. No, I don't.

mean you. That's why I love talking about Ted Seekers because this was not a cash grab. No one approached me. All these other, there's another guy with a celebrity with a beer brand. And he's very openly on a talk show saying like he got approached by people. They handed him five things at a boardroom meeting and said, basically, we put your name on this.

Yeah. So this is like me and Aaron created a beer we wouldn't be embarrassed to order at a bar. Yeah. Right. We're not like, hey, do you have a little duels? Could you bring it in a Budweiser? Yeah. I also think selling products is great. I have no beef with people who kind of who do.

doing that we made it for ourselves and then we thought oh maybe people would also want but i mean even people who like don't really care about the product but are like look i can i can slap my name on this and get eyes on it and i think it's fine I don't have any, I don't really have a problem with some of this bad things that other people might have problems with. But I do think like when I go to Target, I'll say if I go to Target. Yeah, it's a great place to go. And there's like.

so many tequilas. They're all one kind of tequila. It's all, they're all a celebrity brand tequila of one. variety. It's not like they like put in a ton of effort to make it because, you know, I think we recently talked about Paul Feig. Paul Feig has a gin. Yes. But that's like his passion. Yeah, he's virtually a chemist. Yes. And so that's great to me. And my passion's partying. It was. No, it is. That's what Ted Seeger is all about. You can still fucking rage. You don't have to have alcohol.

Yeah, but do you think you rage? Oh, my God, yes. Erin and I party hard. I don't need to poke holes in your business. Barbecue, laughing, screaming, five of them, not the sip one. Of course. Empty can. It's a party. Yeah, but I think most people think when they hear party, they think like club, 4 a.m. Oh, they're not thinking about it correctly. I agree. Party's a state of mind.

And I'm going to drop into a carefree tomorrow never comes attitude. That's a party to me. I'm about parties too then. Yeah. We party. We fucking get down here. What are you talking about? This is a major party. I'm just telling you what. The colloquial observation of the word party. That they think it has to involve being intoxicated. And being out late. People think partying is being out late and they don't party with me because I'm in bed by eight.

Yes, yes, yes. But Erin and I will be out late, okay? Rarely. Rarely. But we would. Just want you to be honest that it's rare. Yeah, but we would. And then you used to get panicked because you haven't taken your sleep aids. I'll give you a prime example. Aaron and I will be, which happens often, we're both binging a show together and it's midnight. We should go to bed and I go.

You just want to fucking party? And he's like, yeah, let's fucking go. And that means we'll watch till maybe 3 a.m. Because tomorrow's not coming. That's tomorrow, Dax's problem. B-T-D-T. That's like how I live. B-T-D-T? I watched all of Running Point on Saturday. I watched the whole show. Right. Let it rip. Party. I was up late. And I guess I was partying. Yes.

I don't think we should let the people, just people who are getting intoxicated own the space partying. I like it. You're reclaiming. That's right. Wait, back to, I want to spend a little more time on this because I think. I think you're representing how a lot of people feel. Like, oh, God, this guy's got a vodka now. Right. I don't mean to, yeah. But I think a lot of people feel that way. Yeah. And.

I guess I can see it from both sides. Well, let me be clear really quick. To me, it's not about like, oh, this guy has. It's not about the guy or the girl or the whatever. It's not about the person. It's about the space. It's like, guys. We just don't need another one of these. Right. You're more like the category. Yeah, pick a new category. Get a little creative. Look and see what's needed. Then do that. That's what's cool about Danny. Ricardo. No. Nope. He did wine. Nope. Danny DeVito.

Oh. He did Lemmature. What is it? Lemmichello. I love Lemmichello. Lemmichello. Like when we went in Rome 18 years ago. He was ahead of the game. He had Lemmichello because that's his drink. This is the same with beauty. Beauty Insiders. also feel like this, like, wow, everyone has a makeup brand or a beauty brand or something. And I agree.

But I also think there is some space there. Like, I do like the people who are coming in with a more diverse color palette. Okay, sure. Things like that. Some browns and light browns. Yeah, because there's a lot of... Whitey. Well, there's just a lot of variation within darker colors, and that's not available. I was just asking Simone yesterday. I was like, what did you put on my face again for?

For the SAG Awards. And she was like, I used to. She had to do some. Yeah, you got to use. Chemistry. That's right. Oh, I was only going to, not that anyone cares. I don't even know why I'm saying this, but I'm going to. If you look at. The last six spirits that were created and then became valuated are over a billion dollars or multiple billions of dollars. The truth is four of those five are celebrity driven, whether it's Conor McGregor or it's the handsome Clooney, McClooney.

George Clinton, but his is good. Well, yeah, they could be good or they could be. I guess, but I guess with that, I didn't even know that was his brand. I was drinking it, Casamigos. Casamigos, shout out. Yes, I was drinking that. You already exited, I think. Oh, good for him. And then I learned. Like, I think he invested in that, right? Oh, he was right out in front of it. Oh, he was? Yeah, yeah.

There's several they have worked. And what you have to acknowledge is if you're a distiller or a distillery. Breaking through this insanely cluttered space is nearly fucking impossible. You would really have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars marketing this product. Yeah. Or you get The Rock to talk about it on his Instagram. You save yourself several hundred million dollars. Sure. And it breaks through.

But that's selling. That's like he's the spokesperson. I'm fine with spokespeople. No, he started that. He's one of the founders. That's what I'm saying. That's different. Starting something, founding something, having your own idea and doing it to me is. Is like, now I'm confused about what I'm even saying. And me too a bit, which I think is the sign of a good.

conversation is you're like trying to figure out what your position is midway through. I don't care. Everyone can do it. There's just a lot of products out there. I want to explain the landscape. And why it's irresistible for distilleries and, you know, spirits. Because. You almost can't do it to just have like a novel recipe and try to penetrate. I agree. Like Kristen was with Spindrift for a while. Right. That to me is great. Like she likes the product. Yeah. And it exists.

She is helping promote it. She's a spokesperson. But I think if she on her own was like. And like you guys did it with Hello Bella because you felt like there was a need. Yeah, yeah. We wanted people on a budget to have the same shit we have. Yes, but I think if she on her own was just like, what? product shall I make now yeah okay I'll make vodka right and I don't drink yeah or just anything it's like she didn't do that and I appreciate that

Like, I think just being hired is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am, please hire me to be a spokesperson. No, I think you just. No, I. This is nuanced. I would like to be a spokesperson for your product that already exists, but I don't want to clutter the market with a new one. Don't you think it might be fair to also acknowledge this, like, however you feel about the new celebrity?

product is virtually just how you feel about that celebrity because like when Clooney does it you're like oh cool he's super classy and elevated and I bet his tequilas top shelf and you won't get a hangover it is and then you see I don't even want to say a name, but you know, there's like a whole legion of people you would see with the product and be like, well, I don't even like their vibe to begin with. And it reeks of cash grab. Yeah.

Yeah, that's all part of it. I'll have everyone know if it makes them feel better. I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars on Ted Seegers. No, I made this clear that I think that's different. Mine's also a mission to be with my two friends. Yeah, that's great. Everyone do whatever they want. Yeah. Just do it. And I don't care if you think I'm a...

I'll just, yeah, I guess it is important to me that everyone recognizes that this is not a cash grab. No one came to me. This is all self finance and I'll probably lose my shirt. But again, I'm having a blast with Aaron and Aaron. We were at a fucking convention just now on stage.

Cash grabs in the right. Yeah, there's the right. Listen, I'm part of some cash grabs. Everything's fine. Me too. Everything's fine. Everyone's doing great. Everyone's trying to make it. What else? How was your weekend? We haven't discussed weekends. Yeah. Tell me. As I said, I watched all of Running Point, really enjoyed it. I miss that half hour comedy vibe a lot. Yeah. It's such an easy, it's just easy. It's breezy. It's fun. It's, it's sexy. It's, I like it.

So I watched all of that. Oh, speaking of on my Instagram this week, because it's Mindy week, although when this comes out, it won't be Mindy week. Yeah, it's past. It will have passed. It's Mindy week. So every day this week, I'm posting on stories an old episode of ours that is connected to Running Point.

So like yesterday I posted Kate's old episode. Right. Today I posted Ike's first appearance. How first? Yeah. And then there's more to come. Oh my God. We've had a lot of those people on. Yeah. Who else? Max. Oh, yeah, Max Greenfield. Sweet Max, who I love. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you finished that whole—you plowed right through. Yeah. And you felt great, and you woke up and felt good in the morning. Yeah, I was very happy. You didn't feel guilty for partying too hard.

Yeah, good. No, I didn't. I felt great about it. Wonderful. What else did I do? Oh, I had a big catch-up session. With my viewing crew because we were behind and we watched White Lotus and Severance. We were behind. So we had to watch two Severance, two White Lotus. You have not introduced me to this viewing crew concept. This is you just dropped it on my lap. I'm super familiar.

I told you, Ana, Julia, Jess, and I watched that. Watch Severance and White Lotus. You told me you had watched an episode. I didn't realize it was a commitment and a viewing crew. Oh. And a weekly. Yeah, it's a weekly Sunday. What fun. Sunday I make dinner. The funnest times of my whole life were watching Sopranos on Sunday nights and making Italian food. Yeah. Yeah. So fun. Gotta gooch. But the problem is when you miss.

It's a problem. Yeah, when you get it, it's a got a gooch. And when you miss, it's a got a gooch. Okay. Are you in Soprano? Yeah, I'm in Soprano. Okay, got it. Yeah. No, it's like then we have four to watch. That was a lot. When you miss a week of viewing, I thought you meant when you miss cooking. Oh, yeah. I didn't understand what you were doing. Okay. Missing would be, oh, Maron. Maron. Okay. Okay. All right.

So we had to watch four episodes. Oh, my God. That was your Sunday? Yeah, which was also very fun. That's fun. It was fun. But then the Oscars were also on. Oh, and you got to watch those. So I had to watch pieces of that. So it was a lot of. Television consumption over the weekend. I had a television party, too, because I got early screeners for Drive to Survive. And I had the boys over. Cool. To watch. And what a show.

What a show. Boy, do they build the suspense for the season, which kicks off in a week. Fun. I can't wait. Testing happened. Some surprises, some big, exciting surprises. How's my boyfriend? Does he do well? Who's your current boyfriend? Toto. He's one of my boyfriends. Oh, now he's your boyfriend. He's definitely been one of my boyfriends since he came on the show.

Since he came on the show. Yeah, of course. But prior to that, yeah, it was Ricardo or Bust. Well, Ricardo's still, but he's not there. He's a carooch. Okay. Ricardo. Yeah, Danny. Daniel Ricciardo. You can't even look. Yeah, great total. What a charming son of a bitch. He gets you several times in the three episodes. He does. Yes, he's so playful. God, he really is so playful. But back to testing, Carlos signs who we love. Sexiest man on the grid.

Leigh father is a legend. Don't say that about him. He was, um, unceremoniously let go of Ferrari to make room for Lewis Hamilton. Okay. And what was great is that the first half of the year, Carlos was destroying. He was beating Leclerc, who I love, but it was fun because he's like, oh, you're going to fire me.

And keep Charles. Let me beat Charles for a while. Very exciting. This is great. He went to Williams, always a bottom three team. In testing first test session, Carlos Sainz had the fastest lap in a Williams. Talk about a little bit of poetic justice. We love a comeback. Underdog. An underdog. This is straight underdog. You know, I have very specific compartments for my stories, as we learned on the last fact check. What do you mean? Wait, I forget.

Well, I was like, no, no, this is a climbing the ladder becoming a CEO story. This isn't a dreams come true story. That's too broad of a blanket. Sure. So this one is specifically underdog. Yeah, but it's like underdog. Revenge. That's what it is. It's not an underdog, I don't think. Well, he's on an underdog team. I know. There's two stories happening. It's just hard to call him an underdog. But the Williams story is an underdog story.

And then the Carlos Sainz is a revenge is a dish best served hot and straight up your ass on week one of testing. And I won't clean my ass after. Don't say that. It's my opinion. I mean, that's the world we live in. Opinions. You just say it and it's a fact. That's right. Opinions are facts. Don't talk back. Yeah. So, all right. Well, that's fun. You had a viewing party. Yeah, that was a really good time.

Had a double date on Saturday night at a steakhouse by the people who do Sugarfish. Oh, nice. And you can expect it's the steak version of Sugarfish. What? Matu. Oh, I've been there. You have. Yeah. The Philly. They do also. Oh, the Philly cheesesteak. So good. Oh, my God. That was dessert. We got this crazy like all in meal and the dessert was that friggin. It's so unreal. That's the best.

I mean, people in Philadelphia are going to slit my throat, but it's the best Philly cheesesteak I've ever had, and I've had them in Philadelphia. It's a Wagyu, right? It's a Wagyu. You mispronounce it, but yeah. Oh, God. Gotta gooch.

Oh, you've been hanging out with too many bros. No, I haven't. Now you talk like that. I spent one evening with Aaron and Aaron who are not bros. No, Aaron and Aaron are not the bros I'm talking about. They're not bros at all. I love them. Yeah. They're very un-bro-like. I know. That's why I love them. We went and saw the Led Zeppelin. Zeppelin documentary yesterday. Fun. In IMAX. Fun. Yeah. Actually, I was thinking about that. This is a Easter egg. You know.

You can't wait to watch you tap dance around this. I already know what's coming. And I'm like watching you play. You're like testing the ice. See if you're going to falter before you say it. I know. For someone who is pretty risk averse, I'm really not. I step on the ice all the time. Yeah, you're mixed messies for sure. I do think you connect with bro culture. Like in your head, you think that. Like you grew up.

in Michigan and, you know, it's dirt road and you have all these bros and and then other kinds of bros in Detroit. Like you really connect with that idea. Oh, okay. So far, I can agree with you. I can hang with the bros. Like, I'm totally comfortable. Sure. But I think you sometimes identify, sometimes, well, maybe it's just when you're with them. I don't know. But I, and I mean this. as a huge compliment. Yeah.

You are not one. Oh, I know. And, like, your bros are sweet boys. Oh, yeah, yeah. The errands? Yeah. All my friends from Michigan are sweethearts. I know. We fistfought a lot, but all of them are very sweet boys. That's like, there's a distinction for me. If I dare, I'm now on the ice. I think you had some pretty binary categories.

And I don't know that you have the category of boys who are super sweet to their moms and their sisters and also fought at the bar. Right. And I think that's the category that the errands and I are in. Yeah, that's right. I think the bro culture that people talk about is different than what you have and what you're doing. I do too. Yeah. I think a lot of the bro culture without naming names is in deep search of masculinity. Yeah. And I think I've been lucky enough to achieve a lot of that.

masculinity yeah like i think there's a lot of guys who act tough who They've never challenged themselves to find out if they are. And they have this fear that they're not. And they're kind of compensating. So I can hang in those circles because I am often the thing some of these guys are purporting to be. don't act like a blowhard or I try not to act like a blowhard. Yeah. But like some people do, do put it to the test, like Rogan.

Like he goes and he's like into UFC. Oh, yeah, yeah. He trains. Exactly. But his story, as I've learned from other people, is he was a bullied kid. He's short. I think he was bullied. And I think he. Didn't want to ever feel that again. And I think he made himself strong and learned how to fight. And I think he's. I'm assuming he's kind of honest about that. Yeah, but he's choosing still to surround himself and build a life that's still like that.

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I think it could be misleading. If you only evaluate Rogan by the 15 most flagrant guests he's had, instead of the dude's done 2,000 episodes of his show, and he's also really good friends with Chappelle. I think he's a comedian first. I think if we were to interview him, I think he would most identify. He's a comedian. UFC is not first. He's much happier in a green room with all.

comics yeah i think that's his allegiance in his tribe and then i think as i'm crazy into cars he's crazy in the ufc and then that that invites ufc fighters now those guys yeah i'm not a lot of them I don't have much to defend about their worldview, but I don't know that it's entirely fair to graph on to Rogan who his 15 craziest guests are. Because he also has...

That's fair. Other guests in the opposite direction. If there's anything I'll say about him, he's incredibly fair about. Everyone there is kind of welcome. If anything, he's just really attracted to super provocative ideas. Sometimes they're on the left, sometimes they're on the right. I listened to a speech he made the other day that was like, I'm not in either of your club. What I think is crazy is to be in a club. So I don't think he is.

He himself self-identifies as much as the left thinks he does with being a conservative. But I think he's a bit of a big bad wolf on the left, and I personally don't think he is. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I'll say he's a big, bad wolf, but do I think he's, do I think he contributes? To a culture that I think is problematic, yes. And that doesn't mean he himself necessarily is that. But I think he feeds that group what they want.

And then they get off on it. Well, again, I think they listen to the 15 episodes that we will then talk about in droves. And then they. I mean, he obviously is the biggest show in the world. Oh, bye. By 510X. Yeah, it's not that they're picking and choosing. He has a huge audience that he, I believe, cares to keep as he should. Yeah. And I think that means feeding it. See, that's where I might disagree. I don't think he's led by his audience at all.

Like, I think he is actually insanely true to who he just is. That's why I respect him a lot. I don't think he's chasing that audience. I think he's him and a big swath of the country loves. that. I see other people chasing that and... Trying to be opportunistic about that. Yeah. And I just don't think that's him. I think he's been the same fucking dude for 12 years on his show. I only wondered because.

Again, Easter egg, we have someone coming out and we have two people coming out that are, in my opinion, well, one of them especially is quite atypical-ish. Atypical or atypical? Atypical. of our guests. Sure, sure, sure. And the type of conversation even is different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I did think, I wonder. what would happen like in an alternate universe what would happen if I wasn't here not in this in in this show if it was Dax Solo yeah

What would happen with the show? Who would it be? What would it be? I mean, there's I think there's no way to know because of like the. the alchemy you can't you can't tell right but I did you know after I was like oh man I wonder then we went out and your friends were here Aaron's the Aaron's were here and I was like oh I don't it wouldn't be that

I think the way you can test it is I've gone on these people's shows and I'm just still me. I'm talking about trauma and addiction and being vulnerable. Yeah. Even in the. The lion's den of these dudes. Yeah. But again, I have the gift of having done all the stuff. I don't ever feel like I need to. inflate or bonify my masculinity. Prove yourself. I don't. I'm so comfortable. Like when it goes into those zones that I actually like, if it's about cars or.

a great boxing match. I do like that stuff, but I don't ever need to join. You're not bragging about those things. No. But also I, but I do, I was thinking, yes, you're right. I think you would be talking about trauma and you would be. whatever you know I agree you are you but I was and this is not a this is not a pat on my back because it was you who said that I should be here yeah

I do think it's just so fucking important to have a woman in the room. Yeah. Especially one that's empowered. Yes. Like if you were to guest on one of their shows. It would be dicey. I don't, you know, it would be hard. It would be hard. It would be hard. But these people are on your show. Yeah, but I, yeah. Well, yeah, sorry. I mean, I mean. Yeah. Like, it is really important to have a woman there. It changes the dynamic of everything, even if I'm silent. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Now, what I would agree with is the guest, one of the two, would have gone further. Now, I wouldn't have joined him, but he would have certainly gone for there. Here's where we might disagree. So, yes, in this situation, of course, I couldn't be more grateful you're here at all times. And this show absolutely needs you.

Now, I don't mind at all if there's a podcast with five guys talking about guy shit. That's okay. We don't have to have a woman there. And we don't need a man when there's a podcast of five women talking about women shit. I don't think we need representation in all places. It's plenty fine if girls have a podcast and boys have a podcast. That doesn't bother me at all. Yeah. And boys can go ahead and talk about the UFC the whole time. Sure.

Who paid for dinner? All that stuff. Like, that shouldn't—that's not the enemy, I don't think. Yeah. Again, I don't think it's the enemy. I think they should be able to do that. I'm not like, you can't. But I think— Like if women's shows don't need a man, which they don't, I don't think men's show need a woman. Yeah. I mean, then we get into like women are talking about the things that aren't being talked about because.

That is not a group that gets a lot of attention in that way. Like they're talking about not getting paid. That is important to talk about, right? Like I don't think men on the men's podcast are saying like, yeah, women aren't getting paid.

That's to me sounds like you're saying one is superior to the other, that one has an ethical drive and the other one is inane. And so. No, I didn't say that. That's putting words in my mouth. I know. I'm telling you what it sounds like. It sounds like you're saying a women's show is needed and they're they're a part of some.

kind of good movement. And the men's one is not. No, it's just representation. It's just that that group needs, they do need more platforms to talk because there aren't that many. So it is good to have. I don't mean I'm not. I also think. The women should have men on. I think it's like I don't think The View needs a man. I don't think Alex Cooper needs a man. I think there's a. Yeah. Yes, that's true. There's tons of very successful shows that are female led. And that's.

awesome they're and they don't need anything they are doing the show they want to do, and the audience who's consuming it wants that show. Yeah, I agree. And the same has to be applied to the guys. I agree. I agree. But I do think there's a lot of ideas currently. I mean, not even ideas. We know we know what's happening to men. Men are suffering. They are tanking. And I don't I often think some of these things don't help that.

Personally, for them, I think they get very riled up and then they're just continuing to do to go on this course that is not going to pull them out of any of these ruts. I'm just saying I don't think they have advice for how the female-dominated shows should be or shouldn't be. I don't think they're telling anyone how your shows should be or how female shows should be.

But I think a lot of those men would feel like, why are you even telling us what our show has to be? Like, just don't listen to our show. If you don't want to hear a bunch of talk about fighting and stuff. Who cares? The reason to care is the implication it has on a huge group of this country. sort of a currently like kind of disenfranchised male. And they're like rallying around. Yeah. I mean, as they should. But it's not working.

It's not getting them out of any of these bad situations that they're in. I hate to say this. It is working because they got their president in there. And they're all suffering. I mean. Literally all of those people are. I'm not freaking out right now because I don't have any money and they can't buy anything and everything's gone. I don't want Trump to be president. I don't agree with, I mean, name the thing that's going on.

But if a disenfranchised, if you make those folks black, take them out of that they're white men, the black community totally disenfranchised. You get hip hop, you get rap, you get this empowering art that comes out of it.

And. For anyone who is sitting on the sidelines telling Ice Cube how he should be dealing with the situation when he's got tons of raps about shooting people and hating white people, the people that were on the outside telling him how he should deal with growing up in South Central. we would both agree they should shut the fuck up because that's the disenfranchised group and you're hearing their voice now. So now there's another disenfranchised group and they're doing what generally.

People do that are disenfranchised. They bond together over that. And then they try to get someone they think is going to represent their cause. And those people won the election. Yeah. And they're going to, and it sucks for them. And your opinion is they'll suffer more under this precedent. That is fact. I don't think they're going to benefit. But what I can say is we don't know the result because four years isn't up.

But what we started just talking about is that they, they got their president and they did. Yeah. And my opinion is that their president, that they all got fucking fooled. And I don't think that. I do think there's a maybe not a responsibility. I would I would find it to be my responsibility if we had a show, if our show, if I started looking at our audience and I was like, hmm.

Our audience is all believing something that I don't think is actually correct and is actually going to lead them to suffer. I would want to do something. here to try to help help correct that while keeping them. I just think if your goal is to help this disenfranchised group, I think saying your conclusion is they got fooled. Which is, if I'm them and I hear you say you all got fooled, what I'm hearing you say is you're smarter than I am.

And I got fooled and I'm a fool. I think a good chunk of men feel like all they've been hearing for 10 years is how terrible men are. I know. Yeah. I really believe that. Yeah. And I think. It's pretty predictable that this group that's being told they're toxic and terrible for 10 years is going to at some point go, well, then fuck you. Yeah.

And I think that's what you're seeing. And I think if our continued approach is to tell all of them that they're terrible, you're going to see more of this. I think if you want young men to be on our side, you have to. Invite them. And I think you have to make it seem like they're welcomed and we'd be delighted to have them. Yeah. And I think the messaging towards men over the last decade has not.

made a lot of them feel that way. Yeah, I'm sure that's right. And I think even if they don't have a job, let's say they're unemployed today. And then they're unemployed in four years. But at least someone got up and said, hey, I'm not apologizing that I was born male and I'm sick of hearing the bullshit. Maybe that win for them would be better if they're unemployed on both sides of it.

Okay, then they can live their life like that. Well, I think that's a really— It's very unfair, in my opinion, for you to say that. So women have to do what women always have to do, which is placate men because they have the power and say like. Oh my God. It's so, you guys are so great. Please come over. We, we love you. There's a huge gap, Monica, between you're so great and just you're so shitty. I think.

And you could argue and win that it's justified. So, yes, I think my general feeling about women is much more positive than your general feeling about men. And you could argue that that's totally justified because they're the patriarchy, they commit the sex crimes, they do all the murdering. Those are great reasons. And I'm not even going to argue, but I do think my overall opinion of women is higher than your overall opinion of men.

And I think I feel it. Do you think that's an accurate assessment that your overall opinion of men is lower than my opinion of women? Than your overall opinion? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yes, for like being a woman in America. That's not I mean, I don't know how to combat like you. You did just kind of put me in a you did paint me in a way like, yes.

I know. Because of men in this country. Yeah, and I get it. And I get it. And it's justified. So if you're a man and I'm a man, and yes, there are pedophiles that are men and there's rapists that are men and there's a lot of bad men. But if you paint me with the same brush as those men, if you're conflating me with those other people, now I'm a group and now I have a group identity. But that's not fair to, I don't think. We have so many men.

who come on this show experts and and celebrities i'm not when they walk in i'm not like well, I don't trust you or I'm not sure if I like you. I'm like, yes, I like you until something is said or done. where I don't. Yeah, I never experience it when we're interviewing a guest. No, but that's me interacting with men in the world. I experience it when we do Armchair Anonymous and we're listening to a woman's story. That's when I observe it, where it's like.

There's no benefit of a doubt to the man that's being talked about. You'll generally go to, you know. They're a terrible, the girl who shit on her boyfriend and he threw up. And, you know, that's where I'll notice it, where I'll go like, wow, I think Monica's opinion of men is pretty low. She's.

You know, quick to assume the man in this story is the problem and not the woman or that it would be equal. Maybe. And I think a lot of people feel that way. And again, men have earned that. But I'm not that man. And so many of the men are not that men and we don't like it. Okay. Just like you wouldn't like any negative stereotype about Indians or women. You wouldn't like it. But if I'm behaving in that stereotype.

For you to lump you in is a little like. Well, I'm a man. But I know you. Right. It's not like you're a random man I know. My opinion of you is based on you and you and me. It is not about anything stereotypical. Right. I can tell you, I go to Kristen's cabaret show and there's a woman host of it. It's her show. And she does seven minutes on the world would be perfect if there was an island and it just had women on it and there was no men. And all the women clap in the audience.

That's a real thing that's totally fine to say in public right now and in fact gets applauded. And I'm a dude in the audience and I'm like, this is a weird, we're in a weird pattern right now where this is. Not only fine, but applauded. And I'm looking at the seven men in the room and I'm like, yeah, this is weird. There's never been. It's just if that was the same thing that was being done and men were going.

dream world is an island with no women and everyone clapped i'd go i would go you guys are fucked no i know but but it's i think there's some contradictions here because also when These standups are making jokes about women or other people of other races or whatever. And in your response, which I I think is correct, is if you don't like it, don't watch it. This is the same thing. Why is it, if it's a woman doing it,

It's like, that's really bad. But when men say something sexist, you can say like, well, just, yeah, that's not for you. Don't watch it. No, I'm never laughing that a guy goes, women suck and men should all be together. I've never enjoyed a stand-up routine or laughed at a joke that that was that common.

complicated her entire thing was just wouldn't it be great if there were no men now had she crafted an incredible joke and it was funny I would laugh at it for sure I don't have that big of a chip on my shoulder I'm just saying That's a weird vibe, and I'm in that kind of often. And I'm pretty evolved, and I still go, I don't want to be a man in this room. I don't know why you hate men across the board. I don't think you should hate me.

And I am semi-evolved. So I'm imagining all these other kids that are unemployed and hearing that sentiment and just going like. OK, I guess it's us against them. Yeah. I don't think most of the people in the country are hearing the woman at the cabaret show. I think that's very Los Angeles and very New York. I don't think that is happening. Yeah. But do you agree?

at all that that's a weird thing or no? To say that? The cabaret show I went to. I think it's silly. I don't agree with that, but I think her saying it is not, is. Yeah, when some people are saying it, just like men are saying bad shit, too. And I and I'm just like, if we're going to say that it's OK for those people to be saying those things and we just can like half.

you know, we can not listen or they can speak to their people, then I think that has to be allowed anywhere. Oh, yeah. I'm only pointing out that that's happening. Yeah. Again, it's happening on both sides. Crazy. But I and I don't think that that cabaret host needs a male and present.

She's fine to do that. Well, she probably does fucking need a man there that she likes. She does. Actually, that's exact. That's a perfect point. If she had someone there that she did trust and know and like that was a man. I doubt that would be her opinion, but the fact that she is so potentially, I don't know anything about this person, but is so siloed off and, and that.

So much so that that is her opinion, that the world would be better with no men. That to me is an indication that she needs to have some more men in her life that are good. I think that's a, I don't think that's a single digit opinion. But to me, that is a silo. That's an issue with silos. And that's exactly my whole problem with these shows that are, I think, intensifying a silo. And I think you're right. It is happening.

On both sides where people are only speaking to one group and these thoughts and opinions are getting so extreme, like we should eradicate entire sex and gender. Like, no, that's wild. I just think it's a real bad idea for just squaring off. Like, okay, it's on. It's men against women. And I think a lot of people feel that way. And I think that's a bad. Yeah, I think that's going to have a bad. I think that's bad. And it's like now after an hour is circling back to the.

what I was saying, which is I think there would be less of it's men versus women if men and women were in rooms together a lot more and building trust. I do, too. Oh, my God. A long walk there. It was an entertaining walk. I think a lot of people will have heard their opinions voiced. Okay, facts. Lauren. Sweet Lauren. Sweet Lauren Graham. Boy, we got a taste of her, what she was saying with the young kids watching Gilmore Girls.

Because she left the garage and we were in the yard and Delta had a friend over from school. And that friend was freaking the fuck out. She was? Is Lauren on a show called Gil? What is it? Gilmore Girls. And I'm like, yeah, she the Gilmore Girl. Oh, it's still going. An 11-year-old. That's really cute. Yeah. Special to be on a show that just like keeps finding its audience. Yeah. All right. So.

The Book Club, Jenna Bush Hager's Book Club. These are the books. The Wedding People, Blue Sisters, The Mighty Red, The Motherless Land, Devotions, The Life Cycle of the Common Octopus, and This is a Love Story. Those are the last. That's from August of last year till now. Lauren had read all of them. Have you read any of those? No. I'm still reading Intermezzo. Okay.

So. So stay tuned. Yeah. And we'll come back to you next week with that riddle. How long has Mae been in show business? 94. When a man loves a woman, she was six. Okay, 31 years. Oof. 30 wonderful years. Wow. That's crazy. And then 93. She beat me by a decade. Yeah. She was on Friends. And then Lauren was in 93. So she did beat her by one year. Okay. 32 years. Yeah.

The Howie Mandel game show that they went to visit is called Take It All. Did they take it all? Oh, they were just watching. They weren't contestants. Yeah, I don't think they were contestants. But this is. Ding ding ding sort of back to that riddle that we haven't shared.

Take It All is a game show where the final two contestants choose between keeping their money or taking it all. The contestant who chooses Take It All wins all the money and prizes from both contestants. If both contestants choose Take It All, they both lose. It's prisoner games. Yeah. Exactly. Zimbardo. Non-cooperative games. Oh, the SNL.

four-part series. SNL 50, Beyond Saturday Night, includes an episode that explores the Saturday night live audition process. It's on Peacock, if anyone is interested. The movie she did with Joel McHale. A Merry Friggin' Christmas with Robin Williams. How long did This Is Us run? Six seasons. 106 episodes. You guys ran six seasons, 103 episodes. Oh, they beat us. Barely. Just resumed Paradise last night. Same writer. Yeah. Episode eight was banger. Oh, I'm behind then. Oh.

Yeah, it's all caught up to what our screeners were. Oh, great. Yeah. Tasty. We all watched it. The errands. Nice. The girls. Me last night. Yeah. Aaron was on a second viewing of it. You know, Aaron sees absolutely every show. That's good. I think that's fun. Yeah. Oh, man.

Yeah, well, I'm excited. I'm excited to keep watching. All right, that's it. That was all? Lauren. All right. We love you, Lauren. We really do. She's a nice. I really love you. I really want her banana bread. Me too, but I can't even have it. If she brings it, you have to eat some. This is Letterman all over again. I have to put a tux on. Yep. That's right. All right. Love you. Love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names, about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph.

My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.